Time to Recognize MSU is Legit
I know that every Michigan fan considers OSU to be the biggest rival but I think it's time for MSU to be held in the same regard. They are a bunch of thugs that are coached to do anything possible to gain an advantage over Michigan.
Say what you want about morals, but sometimes you do have to play down to your enemies level. I do not condone William Gholston-esque style of football. Michigan State was a zillion times more aggressive in this game because they absolutely hate Michigan. I don't feel like the hate is reciprocal. Obviously Brady Hoke and Company want to beat MSU but until the aggressive nature of this game is met by the Wolverines in a professional manner, the Spartans will keep having their way in this rivalry.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:10 PM ^
I assume you are speaking of nothing beyond football, and then only for a very few years. The planets will slip back into alignment, have no fear. Nebraska isn't going to tolerate it, and Michigan is headed back. The green fellows are going to have to beat both teams to have any future football relevance.
We have not had to stoop to that level in the past, and I don't foresee much chance of Michigan stooping to that level in the future. If thuggery alone won things, it would be far more commonplace.
I like that the refs flags are yellow. I suspect that sparty is going to be seeing a lot of yellow this year. Refs are people too.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:19 PM ^
said they needed to throw the red flag in that game Saturday. It was cute.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:10 PM ^
Let's face it, MD and his staff (espcially Narduzzi) have brought a different mind set to MSU and they are much better coaches than what MSU has had in the past. Also, the style of football they play does not require a lot of super stars to be effective. I would say, they are similar to Wisconsin in that regard. So we should not put a lot of hope in our recruiting to make this game as one sided as it was for many years. MSU is going to be very competitive for many years to come. If we are back to old Michigan, we could count on winning 60%-65% of our games against MSU.
It is worth mentioning that the only time we defeated the MSU under MD was when we had a team with 5-6 NLF players and it still came down to a last minute TD.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:11 PM ^
Okay, so what happens in 2012 if Michigan State wins? What will Michigan's excuses be then? Since 2008, the fanbase has a million excuses as to why we lost to them. I understand we were awful in 2008, came one bad pass away from getting the victory in OT in 2009, but in 2010 Denard gave 3 gifts to MSU and then this year they completely blitz their way to victory.
Hate MSU. Hate MSU with a bloody passion.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:53 PM ^
You are right to a certain degree. The people who downplay this loss are not seeing the whole picture. But its not because MSU isn't taken seriously as an opponent. If anything, psychology dictates that we downplay the significance to make ourselves feel better. Secretly, I think a lot of U of M fans are worried that this isn't the old MSU. That Dantonio will keep this team a top 25 team for a long time. He is recruiting 5 stars. Sevon Pittman is ranked higher than all of our DEs by a few services.
But I also don't think they will ever be able to out recruit Michigan nationally if we do what we're supposed to do. We have more money, more history, better facilities, a bigger alumni base and better academics. I think Hoke and his assistants are at least equal in terms of coaching.
To your point, I do think we need to play this game with more intensity. But they didn't beat us because of intensity. If anything, they almost gave the game away because all the penalties kept us in it. They beat us because they have better offensive and defensive lines than our corresponding lines and they outcoached our coaches. But if we just take care of our own business and get better as a team, we will be better than them on the field and on the scoreboard.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:34 PM ^
a rational response.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:12 PM ^
I think our boys played their hearts out but they just don't have the overall talent that MSU has at this moment, especially on the defensive side of the ball. On offense we are close to what they have but Borges called a pretty lackluster ballgame. I hope the team learns from this loss and keeps on improving as the season goes on.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:12 PM ^
It's hard to truly say MSU is legit at this point. I was sort of with Brian in his preview when he predicted an MSU victory. Defense had some bad moments, but still only allowed 21 pts to MSU. 213 on the ground is abysmal, but they only had 120 passing and we forced two turnovers and were robbed of others (backward pass!). Michigan had 20 first downs to MSU's 16. Michigan played it's worst game by far, and still managed to make it a close one until the end.
MSU gets a rude awakening next , which is the same awakening we would be getting if we played Wisconsin. I think the obvious and boring answer is Michigan itself isn't legit yet, so a victory over us shouldn't propel MSU (or anyone for that matter) into that category.
I do agree with the OP though that Michigan does not seem to reciprocate the hate vibe. Actually, I find it more of a swagger issue. I watch us play and I see us trying to not mess up rather than take it to them. Indeed we never counted on hate before to beat them, rather a sense of self that said, "We are Michigan. We expect to win and we'll show you why."
October 17th, 2011 at 3:14 PM ^
for three or four years now, barely beating us when we're down. I have no problem accepting this reality.
Beyond that what does "legit" really mean?
October 17th, 2011 at 3:17 PM ^
We don't respect their character. We probably universally don't respect their institution. But make no mistake...the MSU game is the second most important game of the year. Far beyond Notre Dame, our third storied rival.
It's just tough to use that word respect for them. I certainly respect ND more.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:19 PM ^
They are legit because they beat Michigan? No. Michigan isn't even close to legit. Michigan is okay and can get by because of some forced turnovers and athletic plays. If MSU can beat Wisconsin, then they are in the conversation to be legit. I even have my concerns about Wisconsin defense not being so good. The OP just went to ESPN today and was like..."OOOOOOOO SHIT ESPN THINKS THEY ARE LEGIT!"
October 17th, 2011 at 3:20 PM ^
Seriously, I figured this must have been started by some sort of Troll is Maize clothes.
MSU thinks this a huge rivalry because they are insatiably jealous of what Michigan represents and the selectivity of the admissions process. I think (mostly because I'm an arrogant bastard) a lot of the hate is sour grapes, whether it is because of our academic standing, the serious amount of national titles we win across many sports, or that no one nationally really thinks much of MSU. With the exception of last year, they don't even get the attention of in-state recruits who Michigan goes after.
OSU is on a completely different plane. There have been multiple times when both schools are top 5, if not #1 and #2. We have a long history of playing tough games that result in someone going to a Rose Bowl, and we're both typically vying for the Big Ten title. No one even remembers MSU "shared" a title last year. We pull top prospects out of their state, and people have disowned family for going to the other school.
In closing ... no, you couldn't be more wrong.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
Actually, I think the only time OSU and UM have been 1 and 2 in the polls heading into the game was 2006.
And honestly, both teams being in the Top 5 heading into the game hasn't happened much lately either. '97 and maybe '03 would be the only times that has happened since Bo stepped down. Even in the 80's I don't there were many, if any, Top 5 matchup's between OSU and UM.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:22 PM ^
Even if we focus only on their on-field play (i.e. throw out all of the real reasons that it's hard to respect MSU), how about we wait until they get to their first BCS bowl before we crown them? A whole lot of teams have beaten us over these past few years.
OSU is a worthy, permanent, mortal enemy. MSU is a disgusting mosquito that bites you every once in awhile and won't go away.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:22 PM ^
Just because they are legitimate doesn't mean we have to respect them. How much respect do we pay OSU? Not very much.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:23 PM ^
NO NEVER!!!!!
October 17th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^
One of which it took them double overtime to do it.
They got pasted 49-7 by Alabama last year.
They have lost every single head to head recruiting battle with us this year aside from 2 players who could not pass admissions to get into Michigan.
This year they had a better team, they are a minor nuisance a couple times every couple decades, nothing more.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:00 PM ^
argument come in? Can you please point me to where the admission requirements for football players differ between Michigan and other B1G schools? Pretty sure it was made clear that every B1G school has the exact same standards for football with the exception of Northwestern(Fitz has made a point of that on multiple occasions).
October 17th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^
MSU 67-32-5 67%
OSU 57-44-6 56%
ND 22-15-1 59%
Min 71-24-3 73%
MSU has some making up to do before they fall to M's "Bottom Bitch". Hats off to them for the four years. I've always hated them more than Ohio and now I can add the "Oakland Raider" mentality to thier persona.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^
FYI:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2011-10-15/michigan-sta…
"Worst of all, Brady Hoke’s Michigan team played with little passion and with a horrible game plan. If it’s obvious that Robinson isn’t a thrower—and at this point, after more ugly and unsuccessful jump balls, aren’t we convinced?—stop trying to make him do something he can’t.
Michigan State certainly played well against the run, but Michigan helped by giving up on it too soon. That left Robinson standing in a collapsing pocket, avoiding a defensive line that was toying with Michigan’s protection schemes. He threw off one foot or no feet or unbalanced with his hips wide open. Basically, Robinson was a mechanical mess with zero hope of success—unless a play broke down and a receiver broke off a route and Robinson found him.
You can’t put Robinson in that position, just like you can’t ignore the fact that Little Brother is all grown up.
As the clock wound down amid the howling wind at Spartan Stadium, Michigan State jumped and danced like it had just won a championship. Michigan trudged off the field without the Paul Bunyan Trophy. Again.
Little Brother just made another big statement.
Michigan can no longer ignore it."
October 17th, 2011 at 4:01 PM ^
I mean, congrats on the win. I really wanted to beat you guys and I'm disappointed that we lost. But what does it really prove? Every win you guys have had over the past 4 years comes with major caveats. This year, admittedly, has fewer, but you can't ignore the fact that Denard is still trying to adapt to a new offensive system. Borges has said himself that he typically sees growing pains in the first year as his QB adjusts to his offense. Do you want us to admit that you had the better team again this year? I can give you that. You had the better team. You've had the better team the past 4 years, and the majority of people around here have already admitted that. You have some great players and some good coaches, I'll admit that.
But you haven't had the better team because you've risen above us; it's more because we've sunk below you and we are still in the process of rebuilding.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:29 PM ^
I'll give you the fact that UM has dropped. MSU has gone through hiring the wrong guy far more times than UM, and it can cripple a team for years. Your team will pay for RR for years (he simply didn't recruit B1G caliber players on the lines). What MSU has now, and hasn't had for decades, is having everyone on the same page: coach, AD, pres. UM's best days were when you had an awesome coach in Bo, and one of the BEST ADs in college history in Don Canham. UM's program was unstoppable during this time.
The only reason I post here, is to try to bring some perspective to the whole Thug U. thing. Seriously, that's BS. Yes, we had some plays I am embarrassed about (the head twist being the most egregious). But, playing tough and aggressive will give you more penalties, and MSU accepts that. Sure, you'll all rip me for supporting Thug U, but every single one of you know you'd rather have players that will knock the other guy down and take no prisoners. As Denard said, it's football and it's dirty. I DO NOT support dirty play, but I'm all for aggresive and tough. This is the B1G, no girls allowed. Seriously, guys, grow a pair and get back to Michigan football.
Lastly, I don't care whom you consider your rivals--that's your business. I will say I get more pleasure out of beating UM than I do beating any other team. We've owned ND for the last decade or so, and beat Wisconsin the last couple of times we've played them. Iowa has given us fits the last two games, so I'd like to whomp them good next time. But, no one gives me more pleasure to beat than UM. If you hate and don't respect MSU, that's your deal. My deal is winning. Job done. Now, rip away.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:01 PM ^
If you take offense to the "Thug U" moniker, how do you justify Dantonio's handling of the mounting examples to the outside world that MSU is truly full of thugs? You can justify one occurrence of thuggery as a random act of violence, sure. I agree with that. But how do you justify the totality of the evidence - e.g. beating of non-testosterone loaded colleagues off the field, reinstatement of Cunningham, allowing Gholston to return to the field after not one but TWO personal fouls, including throwing a punch (!!) that is going to get him suspended, etc. At some point, it changes from being single occurrences here and there to being evidence of a system riddled with violence and lack of control.
I ask these questions because I, for one, would be embarrassed today if I were an MSU fan. I don't mean to say that you should be embarrassed. I just mean that if I watched my alma mater play like it did and exist like it has on and off the field under Dantonio, I would definitely write to my AD to complain about the lack of controls. Like it or not, those kinds of things so say a lot about the university, not just the football program. But I definitely do not want to impose my beliefs on you, which is why I'm truly just interested in what you think about the totality of these occurrences - how do you justify them in your analysis that MSU is not "Thug U." Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:27 PM ^
This might come across as more condescending than I intend, but I think that part of the reason why there's such a disconnect between disgusted UM fans and "that's-just-tough-football" MSU fans is that we just have different standards for our football programs. There are some fanbases out there - Michigan, ND, PSU, etc. - that would react with anger and embarrassment to a display like MSU's on Saturday. And like you said, it's not just on-field stuff. I, like many here, was ready to explode if Stonum didn't get suspended, and my ND friends have been very hard on Kelly for his non-punishment of Floyd.
It's just different standards for program integrity. The reality, though, is that we're probably in the minority, not MSU.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:42 PM ^
October 17th, 2011 at 3:53 PM ^
The yearly game against them is a rivalry game. The problem(for them) is, it's not our biggest rival. OSU will ALWAYS be that rival. Is MSU better right now? Yes. Have they won the last 4? yes. Do we need to get better? Hell Yes? Is their program, their coach, their way of playing the game, their respect for the game at the same level as OSU, ND or Wisconsin or PSU. Absolutely NOT!
Winning is only part of the equation. There is respect for the opponent and the game that matters. When MSU understands that they not only represent East Lansing and their own alumni, that they represent the entire conference each time they take the field and respect the game and how it is played and not focus simply on winning at all costs, then and only then will they begin to rise closer to the top of the conference in respect.
If you feel the need to hurt the opponent and think that taking players out of the game earns repect, you're wrong, they're wrong.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
I agree with there's no joy is injuring the opposoing players to take them out of the game. No MSU fan I know will say they want hard working young men injured. I'm a regular at tRCMB, and I don't read that there. There is a term called "McGuffied." That poor dude got his bell wrung pretty bad a couple of times, and when a guy gets rung up, it's a "McGuffie." But, I'll tell you all one thing--I'm sorry for the head twist. That simply doesn't belong in the game, and I (or most people on the RCMB) don't want to see anything like that again. Denard Robinson seems like a heck of a nice guy--a credit to your university--and I don't have any desire to see him injured, especially unfairly, in a game.
What I won't applogize for is tough, physical play. This is the B1G, we are the Spartans, and we don't take prisoners.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
"I do not condone William Gholston-esque style of football."
What Gholston did isn't football. Even the punch I was willing to somewhat look the other way, but, twisting the helmet like that...no excuse.
What's the conversation like today if Denard had been hurt on that facemask twist? That is not a football play.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:58 PM ^
that MSU has become a disciplined team that plays with sportsmanship, doesn't implode in the 2nd half of the season, keeps penalties under control, respects it's opponents, has coaches who show class and build better men during their tenure, AND does this year after year? If so, I reply a resounding NO to your OP.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:59 PM ^
Any sort of respect to that program , IF ANY , may come if they beat Wisky. this weekend. With that said... NO RESPECT is coming their way because the big uglies will win in EL.
With that said....Fvck MSU.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:59 PM ^
They're going to lose to Wisconsin and Nebraska and finish 4th in the Big Ten. It will also almost certainly make our game with Nebraska for the division title.
I do think that Dantonio is going to be the next OSU coach.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:19 PM ^
I don't think that can be your only indicator.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:01 PM ^
Time to stop dwelling on MSU. They were clearly the better team on Saturday and the scoreboard demonstrates that fact. It's time to worry about our next opponent, Purdue, instead of constantly discussing State. We will bounce back from the tough loss and finish the season 9-3, IMO.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:01 PM ^
I think this year's team has been an improvement, but I would not call it a 'good' team. We had good, as well as great, teams during the Bo/Mo/Lloyd era.
Here's a hypothetical question. If this year's Michigan team played against any Michigan team (by that I mean season) from the Bo/Mo/Lloyd era, which one could it beat?
I can't think of one and that includes the 1984 6-6 season. All Michigan teams during that era had defenses that were vastly superior to today's team. That's obvious. With the exception of '84 when Harbaugh got hurt and Zurbrugg became the starter, the offenses were also vastly superior too.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:06 PM ^
Legit at what?
October 17th, 2011 at 4:14 PM ^
I agree that this game will probably never be as big as OSU. That being said if MSU is able to maintain what they've accomplished the last few years and UM gets back to being UM, the UM/MSU game will have significant implications for winning the division crown and playing in the Big Ten title game.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:07 PM ^
Don't forget about the impact on recruiting. Stringing losses years in a row together is not good for Michigan in in-state recruiting. Hoke's entrance had a big impact on this class but that will calm down after this year and next year it will be all about results. Michigan can't continue to lose to Sparty and expect to win the state, I don't think.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:27 PM ^
If MSU starts winning every game handily to the point that we are dominated in all phases of the game, it will become THE rivalry. MSU will also have to tone down the hate. Not because a little hate talk isn't good, but because it goes so far. OSU hates us, we hate them, but we can be dismissive with our hate. MSU comes off as so desperate to be our equal that it undermines their argument and gives strength to our own. Perhaps unfair, but if they trounced us by 30 and acted like they were supposed to, this rivalry would finally take on a different complexion.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:40 PM ^
legit thugs, that's for sure. The day we let someone walk out of jail for felonious assault and into practice is the day I die....
October 17th, 2011 at 5:01 PM ^
Alabama - 49 MSU - 7
They are not legit. Michigan just didn't get it done when they needed to. A lot of missed scoring opportunities on Saturday. I still think Michigan will get 9-10 wins including the bowl this year.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:05 PM ^
No.
They've beaten us four times when our collective B1G record has been 8-19 (including this season so far). Take out the 4 MSU losses and we are 8-15. The super majority of B1G teams that we played beat us and MSU really is nothing special in this regard.
Fifth-year senior Kirk Cousins can hold up his four fingers all he wants, but the timeframe he is referring to involved two coaching transitions and a lot of attrition. The fact that Brady Hoke coached a game that was closer than the score indicated and, in fact, winnable, speaks more to our return to legitimacy than them passing that threshold.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:18 PM ^
Uh, no. More history with The Game than Micihgan State, and I've never legit walked away from The Game completely disgusted at the actions of the Ohio State players.
I have SOME semblance of respect for Ohio State. I have ZERO respect for the Michigan State Little Brother program.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:34 PM ^
when they even keep it close against top competition i will consider it. then i will remember that it won't last more than a season tops and i will continue to regard them as street trash.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:38 PM ^
I'll believe it when they start selling jerseys in Ohio.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:49 PM ^
MSU will never be equal to OSU. The Buckeyes are and will always be our biggest rival. MSU is a 2nd tier program...period.
October 17th, 2011 at 6:35 PM ^
"Say what you want about morals, but sometimes you do have to play down to your enemies level."- OP
I disagree. If Sparty is going to play as they did on Saturday, then in my opinion, they will never be a legitimate program. A legitimate program can beat you without all the unsportmanslike conduct and do so consistently.
October 17th, 2011 at 6:26 PM ^
I don't think MSU is legit, I don't even think about MSU besides 1 game a year, we lost move on we have bigger fish to fry!
October 17th, 2011 at 6:28 PM ^
Are you fucking serious? MSU is better but until they win either multiple BCS games or a natl title they'll be a regional program at best.
October 17th, 2011 at 6:35 PM ^
MSU beats us during a transition period after losing 6 straight to us and they're dominant?