Time to re-evaluate JB as Bball coach?

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January 19th, 2011 at 3:45 PM
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Fresh Meat
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Time to re-evaluate JB as Bball coach?

I was a big supporter of JB when he was hired.  I thought, here is a guy who gets more out of less, and if he could do that at WV then certainly he can recruit even better at Michigan right?

Here are my main complaints about our coach.

1) I don't like his style on offense.  We have zero inside play.  There seems to be little in the offense for low post play, very little in way of attacking the basket.  It is a series of handoffs and passes around the 3 point line until someone jacks one up.  If people complained that RR's style was soft for the big ten, then good god I don't know how this isn't.  Now, some may say that it is because of the players on the team that we have zero penetration and zero post play...but who is to blame for that?  Which brings me to my next point.

2)  He appears to be a terrible recruiter.  I'm sorry, but I'm just going to say it.  You can say all you want about Michigan's facilities not being up to snuff, but at least he can promise kids the facilities are coming, Amaker couldn't do that and he landed way more talent.  Say all you want about Amakers talents as a coach, he at least recruited which I bring up to prove only that you can recruit better at Michigan than JB has done.  We have a team full of nice players, no elite players.  You can't reach an elite level with all role players.  The only two players he had that were even close to elite, Manny and Sims, weren't his players, and no I don't count Manny as his player.  We have an absolute lack of difference makers, but not just that, even great athletes.  I don't want to disparage guys like Zack and Stu, they work hard and seem to be good kids, but they just aren't great athletes.  You can have a guy or two like them, but when they are two of your best players, you are in trouble.  And before you spill love on the players on the roster, take your Michigan goggles off.  Darius Morris, for all of his improvements which have been significant, is only great compared to his teammates.  Being the best player on a bad team doesn't make you an elite player.  Similarly, making vast improvement doesn't make you an elite player.  People are so pumped about this recruiting class, but it features a 6'1" SG and our class is ranked lower than basketball powerhouse....Alabama.  You are going to tell me Michigan can't pull in one, ONE freaking top 25 class in all of JB's time?  I realize Michigan is not the basketball power it once was, but not one top 25 class in all his time? 

I am frustrated.  I appreciate the kids on the team and the effort they give, it isn't their fault.  But our recruiting has been an incredible disappointment.  Where are the NBA level recruits?  Even just one every two years, I'm not even asking for 4 or 5 every year like Duke or UNC.  Just one every few years is a reasonable expectation.  I'm starting to think JB may not be the man for the job.

I've been called the songbird of my generation, by those who have heard me. THAT GOOD

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January 19th, 2011 at 3:47 PM | SCRAP THE PROGRAMS (Score:1)
Geaux_Blue
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BOTH ARE JUST HOCKEY ON WOOD/GRASS

WE'RE A HOCKEY SCHOOL NOW

HOBEY BAKER > HEISMAN

I CAN'T FEEL MY TOES

January 19th, 2011 at 3:54 PM | I applaud ur enthusiasm. (Score:1)
yostlovesme
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I applaud ur enthusiasm.

January 19th, 2011 at 4:14 PM | THE ORIGINAL POSTER NEEDS TO COME AFTER ME (Score:1)
Geaux_Blue
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HEY OP, IF YOU WANT TO GO AFTER A COACH, ONE OF MY COACHES, YOU GO AFTER ONE THAT DOESN'T DO THE RIGHT THING! YOU DON'T DOWNGRADE HIM BECAUSE HE DOES EVERYTHING RIGHT AND THEN HAVE HIS TEAM NOT PLAY AS WELL ON GAMEDAY -- AND YOU LET THE AD MAKE THAT DECISION. THAT'S WHY I DON'T READ THIS BOARD, BECAUSE IT'S GARBAGE, AND THE POSTER WHO POSTED THIS IS GARBAGE. COME AFTER ME. I'M A MAN. I'M A DECADE FROM 40. I'M NOT A KID. WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT ME, OR MAGNUS. DON'T WRITE ABOUT A COACH THAT DOES EVERYTHING RIGHT, THAT'S HEART BROKEN, AND THEN SAY THAT THE BOARD THINGS HE NEEDS TO BE RECONSIDERED. THAT'S NOT TRUE! SO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. AND I HOPE SOMEDAY YOU HAVE A COACH AND SOMEBODY DOWNGRADE HIM AND BELITTLES HIM AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK THEM IN THE EYE AND SAY "YOU KNOW WHAT? IT'S OKAY." 

That's all I got to say. Makes me want to puke.

January 19th, 2011 at 4:18 PM | U want a shot? (Score:1)
yostlovesme
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U want a shot?

January 19th, 2011 at 4:26 PM | WHY ARE WE YELLING?!!! (Score:1)
rockediny
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"There will be blood on the field and it won't be mine." -KK

January 19th, 2011 at 4:55 PM | LOUD NOISES (Score:1)
farside286
Joined: 01/17/2009
MGoPoints: 495

LOUD NOISES

Class of '11 B.S.E (E.E.)
January 19th, 2011 at 4:55 PM | Plus 10,000. (Score:1)
bmarentay
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Plus 10,000.

January 19th, 2011 at 7:10 PM | Now that's the kind of anger (Score:1)
bryemye
Joined: 09/14/2009
MGoPoints: 2374

Now that's the kind of anger I approve of.

OP: Did your parents tell you your opinion was important when you were a child? Perhaps you had a teacher that put up with you? Well that's nice. But try not creating a topic where you rehash things people have said before (and more eloquently) after they have been refuted ad nauseum and acting like you just came up with the greatest insight the world has seen since Brian realized he should create a Michigan sports blog. It will stop a lot of people from having blood pressure problems and stop those same people from thinking you're an idiot.

My Blog

January 19th, 2011 at 7:26 PM | Yanno, I had a rant typed out (Score:1)
Fresh Meat
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Yanno, I had a rant typed out and I deleted it.  I'm sorry if my post isn't up to your standards and that you, a person I will never meet, thinks I'm an idiot.  I don't think that I am the first person to think this, in fact, I would certainly hope I'm not.  If this posts bothers you, the most rational response is to not read it, not let it get you so obviously worked up.  If you check my history, I very rarely creat a post, so that would seem to shoot down your theory that my parents made me think I'm special so I should share all of my opinions with everyone.  Be less angry, you'll enjoy life more.

I've been called the songbird of my generation, by those who have heard me. THAT GOOD

January 19th, 2011 at 10:19 PM | Ow (Score:1)
umumum
Joined: 01/06/2011
MGoPoints: 262

that makes my ears hurt

January 19th, 2011 at 3:47 PM | i think we need to look at (Score:1)
ish
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7701

i think we need to look at next year.  no one thought we had a chance of being even remotely good this year and i think some early season play inflated our hopes.  that said, i wouldn't be surprised nor dismissive if many others agreed with you.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:52 PM | Exactly. I had virtually zero (Score:1)
MgoSuh
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Exactly. I had virtually zero expectations for this year and the hot start just gave me something to enjoy, but did not give me an enormous sense of hope for this season. The fact that they start two freshmen and a RS freshman nearly every game and still are reasonably successful and having close games against the likes of Kansas and tsio give me a lot of hope for the next few years.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:58 PM | Why do you have zero expectations (Score:1)
jblaze
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in year 4? That's the problem. Setting piss poor low expectations and then meeting/ barely exceeding them is not good.

"They're stuck with that quarterback (sophomore Braxton Miller) for the next two or three years, that's fine with me. He throws worse than (Tim) Tebow. - Steve Everitt

January 19th, 2011 at 4:02 PM | Due to the fact that we had (Score:1)
MgoSuh
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Due to the fact that we had no seniors and the only remotely experienced upperclassmen are Stu and Novak. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have been better by year 4, I'm just saying that before the season, I realized that we had lost our two best players in the off season and didn't expect big things this season.

January 19th, 2011 at 4:45 PM | That excuse didn't work for RR. (Score:1)
Route66
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Kind of applies, right?

 "Run and armpunt that, homeboy." -Brian 10/22/12

January 19th, 2011 at 5:57 PM | RR showed no promise of (Score:1)
MGoBender
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RR showed no promise of better future.  JB has already gotten us to the tournament and won a game when most thought we wouldn't.

Can we please stop comparisons to football. 

Apples to effing oranges.

CoE Class of 2007

January 19th, 2011 at 6:24 PM | "RR showed no promise of (Score:1)
BleedingBlue
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"RR showed no promise of better future."

Wow, that is way off base.  Set offensive records.  ALSO set defensive futility records, but the offense set a few good ones.

'Murica & Footbaw: That's what Michigan Does

January 20th, 2011 at 3:53 PM | Sorry, I meant on-field (Score:1)
MGoBender
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Sorry, I meant on-field success.  Negs worthy. 

To clarify:

Rich Rod did not have the tangible (read: wins) success to suggest that we should keep him and he would be successful in the future.  JB has had tangible success (NCAA tourney + win) and continues to show promise.

Sorry for the original sensationalist comment.  Though, still comparing the two is stupid.

CoE Class of 2007

January 19th, 2011 at 6:28 PM | With that said, having an (Score:1)
The Barwis Effect
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With that said, having an underclassmen-laden squad is far less of a hinderance in CBB than it is in CFB.

"[T]here were a lot of people predicting glorious heights for Rich; mostly the same people who are predicting doom and gloom [for Hoke]. Excuse me if I doubt their prognostication skills." -- M-Wolverine

January 19th, 2011 at 7:37 PM | not to mention (Score:1)
A2MIKE
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the fact that we're in year 4.  JB should have seen this problem coming the minute he was hired.  I have Udoh, Sims and Manny who will possibly all depart in the same season.  He shouldn't have doled out scholarships to project players and tweeners.  Even Amaker could pull in 4 star recruits.

January 20th, 2011 at 4:00 PM | Ugh.  Amaker had a recruiting (Score:1)
MGoBender
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Ugh.  Amaker had a recruiting class that consited of: Jerret Smith, Jevohn Shephard, and Kendric Price.

Think about that the next time you complain about a single Beilein recruiting class.

Furthermore, Beilein's first class consisted of Cronin (project, but wasn't a no-name recruit) and Benzig.  Benzig couldn't clear some NCAA stuff and we lost him.  Can't put that completely on Beilein.  Following year he got McLimans and Morgan.  Next year: Horford and Smotrycz.  Each year he's recruited bigs to go along with 4-stars such as Morris and Smot.  The "Beilein sucks at recruiting meme" couldn't die any sooner.

CoE Class of 2007

January 19th, 2011 at 8:21 PM | hmmm (Score:1)
umchicago
Joined: 02/05/2009
MGoPoints: 3540

i would say in general that making a new years bowl > making the ncca tourney.  however, JB won a game there.

January 20th, 2011 at 4:01 PM | I would say we had no right (Score:1)
MGoBender
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I would say we had no right being in that bowl and proved it on the field.  We were possibly the worst 7-6 team we could have been last year.

CoE Class of 2007

January 19th, 2011 at 7:33 PM | the roster issues (Score:1)
A2MIKE
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the roster issues creating those low expectations are the fault of the head coach in year four.  

January 19th, 2011 at 3:48 PM | btw (Score:1)
Geaux_Blue
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#2 just got utterly DESTROYED on this blog the last time you made this argument Mr. Horton.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:49 PM | Well said.  I agree with (Score:1)
Bob Probert Owns You
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Well said.  I agree with everything, except I do think Darius Morris is great compared to other similar position players that aren't his teammates. He just looks that much better given his teammates... he would still be putting up solid numbers on most, if not all, other Big 10 teams.

After crashing his motorcyle in Chicago -- while having a blood-alcohol level three times the legal limit -- Bob Probert told the arresting police officers, "Just charge me with the usual."  Such a bad-ass.

R.I.P. Bob

January 19th, 2011 at 3:51 PM | Morris is a good player, I (Score:1)
Fresh Meat
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Morris is a good player, I don't disagree with that, my point is we have zero elite players.  His complete lack of an outside shot really limits his level of play.  He could be unstopable with his size at point if he could shoot even average.

I've been called the songbird of my generation, by those who have heard me. THAT GOOD

January 19th, 2011 at 4:19 PM | What do you consider elite?? (Score:1)
BleedingBlue
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What do you consider elite??  Top 100 in the country is elite?  There is extremely little difference among the top 100 after you get past the top 10-20 players.  Amaker was considered an 'awsome' recruiter until late in his tenure.  In six years he brought in Harris, Sims, Horton, Harris, Sims, Petway....All top 100 guys.  6 in 6 years.

Beilein: Morris, Smotrycz, Brundidge, Glen Robinson III - all top 100 or damn close to it and rising. That's 4 in 4 years and he's not done recruiting for 2012.  Not to mention near misses with Pranther, Zeigler, Benzing, where the facilities would definitely have made a difference with the former 2.  

'Murica & Footbaw: That's what Michigan Does

January 19th, 2011 at 8:36 PM | dumb (Score:1)
umchicago
Joined: 02/05/2009
MGoPoints: 3540

you seem impatient and clueless.

1. how many guards out there are shooting 50% from the field in the country?

2. Beilein has nobody left from the first class when he got here after Harris turned pro.

3. True - his next class is not good (Novak and Douglas) but his top recruit, Cronin, never saw the court.

4. It's the youngest frickin team in the big 10 and 3rd youngest in the country.  if guys like morgan, horford and smotrycz (all frosh) don't get better, than ya, beilein should be fired.  but all of these guys will get better.  hardaway and morris will get better too.

5. i haven't seen any practices and maybe someone who has can shed some light.  but i would wager that JB spends the majority of practice time on D; try to get all these new guys in sync.  this ain't easy.  and they are playing better team D than i expected.  the O is pretty vanilla right now, but i expect that to be different next year with experience.

this team will be a borderline tourney team next year and will be even better the year after that.  will we compete for nat'l titles?  who knows. but beginning in 2012, i see this team consistently vying for a top 3 spot in the BIG.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:50 PM | Quit being such a jabroni. (Score:1)
dvlfnfv5
Joined: 10/07/2010
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Quit being such a jabroni.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:58 PM | truth (Score:1)
Geaux_Blue
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Only a couple of Jabronis come on here without basketball reality in mind

January 19th, 2011 at 5:59 PM | En fuego! (Score:1)
profitgoblue
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 19416

You're on fire today!  I'm impressed.  But you have to understand - some people just enjoy going through coaching changes and the turmoil involved.  Now that it appears as though the football change is almost done, its time for those people to move on and focus on firing the basketball coaches.  Next will be hockey.

Disgruntled former moderator.  I got a lot of problems with you people!

January 19th, 2011 at 3:51 PM | posted from iPhone (Score:1)
artds
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I've always felt that his offensive style is too hit-or-miss. Sometimes the 3s will drop, sometimes they won't. When they do, you pull off upsets against UCLA and UCONN. When they don't, you lose to Indiana.



Might as well just decide thd games with a coin toss.

Every time an MGoBoard poster complains about a thread topic, God kills a baby panda.

January 19th, 2011 at 4:04 PM | I wish we could (Score:1)
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1371

If we could decide all our Big Ten games with a coin toss we would finnish 9-9 and make the tourny every year!

If an OSU fan divorces his wife are they still brother and sister?

January 19th, 2011 at 4:19 PM | I agree (Score:1)
HartAttack20
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I agree with the fact that the offense is very "hit or miss." I think part of that makes it important to have better shooters.  I'd argue with the OP that Beilein is a bad recruiter, next year's class is looking pretty good with two guards committed so far in Burke and Brundidge. To me, it's impressive that JB got those guys with the little amount of success he has had at Michigan. In past years, I would have agreed that the team had no post game, but the addition of Alexander to the coaching staff was a nice move by JB, and I like the progress they have made in the post. Watching some of the teams Michigan has played so far, I came away impressed with teams like Purdue and Ohio State that seemed to make a ridiculous amount of three balls. The frustrating thing about this team is that I don't think JB has the players he needs to compete for B1G championships (I'm not saying that's acceptable, but it's something to consider). Players like Smotrycz, Novak, Douglass, basically all of our players routinely miss wide open threes. I wish JB would tell the guys to think twice about shooting once in a while, but it is his system.

I can only continue to reference the fact that I live in an onion factory.

January 19th, 2011 at 3:51 PM | Inconsistent (Score:1)
TSimpson77
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is the word summing up most of JBs teams here. Look at last year when we should have been a way better team win 3 lose 3, score a bunch then can't hit the broadside of a barn. I love the 3 pointer, but watching them last year made me wish it was never invented. I haven't got the chance to sit down and watch them this year but it looks on the stats like the same, too many 3s and no low post game. Sims was top notch last year but we didn't feed him the ball enough. JMO

January 19th, 2011 at 3:51 PM | First, this is a pointless (Score:1)
mgoblue52
Joined: 03/04/2009
MGoPoints: 1266

First, this is a pointless discussion because he just got a contract extension last year, so there's almost no chance he's going to get fired anytime soon, especially since we have to buyout RR's contract.

 

These results are disappointing for year 4 of his tenure here, but JB's biggest mistake was having two crappy recruiting classes to start off with (I love them, but Douglass and Novak are role players at best).  Since then, though, his recruiting has improved significantly (Morgan and Morris in one class, and Smotrycz and Hardaway in the next).  Also, recruiitng looks like it is finally taking an upswing, tempering my fear that JB can't recruit talented players like Morris, who is a 4* recruit.

"I was kind of disappointed in myself to run a 10.44 (100m), but I will accept that. Running the No. 2 time in the nation is pretty good. I was trying to run a 10.3, but there was strong wind." -- Denard Robinson

January 19th, 2011 at 4:47 PM | I agree, this years team is (Score:1)
adamum5
Joined: 09/22/2010
MGoPoints: 87

I agree, this years team is quite young and it's tough to recruit in Michigan with gay State's success in the Final Four this past decade...I think JB is the right man if only he could pick up on the recruiting trail more

 

Block M nation

January 19th, 2011 at 3:53 PM | Let me guess (Score:1)
el segundo
Joined: 04/17/2009
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You were just listening to Valenti & Foster, weren't you?

January 19th, 2011 at 3:54 PM | Criticize his scheme, fine. (Score:1)
mattkast
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Criticize his scheme, fine. But I really don't understand the whole "Belein can't recruit" meme.  Dmo, Smot, and Vogrich were  20th ranked in their positions (Smot 84 over), as well as Hardaway Jr at 94th overall. Theres no post presence partially due to transfers and injury - Cronin's hip esploded, Jmo was injured last year...Next years class is already looking good with Brundidge (75 overall) and Trey Burke (91) overall. Until the program starts a) winning b)improves Crisler into something resembling a modern arena full of excited fans, thats about as high as you can expect. 

But the lows are so extreme that the good seems fucking cheap. 

January 19th, 2011 at 4:09 PM | Yep, (Score:1)
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1371

We won't recruit better until the fans fill the stands. The fans won't show up until we win. We won't win until we recruit better. On and on and on!

If an OSU fan divorces his wife are they still brother and sister?

January 19th, 2011 at 8:12 PM | so what about amaker (Score:1)
A2MIKE
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he recruited at a much higher clip, had the same facilities and was the direct hire after the ellerble era.  He inherited chrenobyl, JB inherited a rebuilding job.

January 19th, 2011 at 4:24 PM | This is just a misconception (Score:1)
LandonC
Joined: 07/24/2008
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This is just a misconception of what "good" recruiting in college basketball is.  In the past four recruiting classes (2008-2011), OSU, MSU, and Illinois have all had three Rivals top 25/30 recruiting classes and Minnesota and Indiana have each had two.  We haven't had one.  Getting four or five guys near the bottom of the top 100 is not good basketball recruiting.  A good basketball recruiting class is one or two legitimate NBA prospects (Top 25-Top50) and one or two more in the bottom of the top 100 or near there.  Beilein hasn't produced those results, and it shows.  

Now, I'll give a little bit of credit and say that Beilein's system utilizes skill sets that might not be your prototypical NBA skill set, and therefore his recruits probably perform a little better than they are ranked.  

We aren't the least skilled team in the conference, and youth does explain a lot of the struggles.  I'd say we have as much if not more raw talent than about half the conference, but we don't compete with MSU, OSU and Illinois when it comes to raw talent.  When (if?) we bridge that gap, we will see a much stronger showing in the Big Ten.  

January 19th, 2011 at 4:30 PM | For the record, it's not like (Score:1)
mattkast
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For the record, it's not like we have near the recent success of OSU, MSU, or IU, or even Minny. Indiana has had success historically and is one of the top states for basketball in the country. 

But the lows are so extreme that the good seems fucking cheap. 

January 19th, 2011 at 5:16 PM | Our history isn't exactly dog (Score:1)
LandonC
Joined: 07/24/2008
MGoPoints: 2008

Our history isn't exactly dog shit.  And the state has historically produced it's fair share of outstanding talent, but I understand that this has slipped recently.  

I'm not arguing that there aren't limitations, I'm just saying there isn't evidence yet that Beilein can recruit.  The fact that people point to the last class as proof shows either a failure to understand what being consistently successful at the highest levels of college basketball entails or how low expectations for the program have fallen.  

Edit:  I should also say, I genuinely like Beilein as Coach.  I like the direction the program is moving in.  I expect this to be an NCAA team the next two seasons and hopefully that will help him take recruiting to the next step.  At this point, though, I understand the questions on whether he can recruit, he still needs to prove it.  

January 19th, 2011 at 6:03 PM | Considering the probations (Score:1)
MGoBender
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Considering the probations for the Ed Martin era, I'd say our history from the perspective of a 17-year old recruit who's seen us in the tourney once is exactly that: dog shit.

CoE Class of 2007

January 19th, 2011 at 8:15 PM | and I bet (Score:1)
A2MIKE
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all of the current football recruits remember Michigan's last rose bowl win... oh wait they would have been 3, so probably not.

January 19th, 2011 at 8:19 PM | If you honestly think there (Score:1)
OMG Shirtless
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If you honestly think there is a valid compairson between the relevancy of our football program and the relevancy of our basketball prorgram in the lifetime of current high school juniors and seniors I question how many times you were dropped on your head as a child.

I put up a tough front, but deep down I just want to be held.

January 19th, 2011 at 8:49 PM | not my point (Score:1)
A2MIKE
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recent success is but one of many factors in recruiting.  If recent success were the only factor, than Michigan's football team would struggle to recruit.  The truth is that Amaker recruited much better than JB.  When JB was hired the tale on him was "great coach, great teacher, below average recruiter".  I tend to agree with that assessment. 

January 19th, 2011 at 10:28 PM | Please stop saying Amaker (Score:1)
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 1853

Please stop saying Amaker recruited better than Beilein. It isn't true.

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