well that's just, like, your opinion, man
Those who want Harbaugh, think about this
I think Harbaugh actually recruited Tate if I am not mistaken.
I think any of those guys would do well in a pro style offense. Denard is completing over 60% of his passes.
Most of his passes are either short screens or are blindingly open because of his threat to run / QB-Lead-Oh-Noes (which also significantly reduces the threat of the pass rush). He has shown the ability to throw some bullets and is gaining some long-ball touch, but he'd take a major hit in effectiveness if he were asked to throw from the pocket all day. However, I concede that Denard in a pro-style offense > Threet/Sheridammit in a spread offense.
Whenever he comes in I know ~60% of the plays will be screens. why? he started all of last year, shouldn't he be able to execute more plays than screens (for the most part).
Well, that's how the offense is built. He's supposed to throw a lot of screens and short passes to playmaking slot-ninjas and run a lot with the occasional deep bomb to a wide open receiver when the opposing DC answers the question "one safety or zero?" with "zero". That's the RR spread-n-shred, and it always will be even if the QB is experienced and brilliant. I wasn't criticizing the fact that Denard throws screens, just saying that asking him to do more would be non-trivial.
UFR for the second half of the season, the screen pass has been all but eliminated from the play calling.
Well, I've seen Denard and Tate throw in the pocket with success. Which is harder, taking a pocket-QB and telling him to run faster, or taking a scrambling QB and telling him to throw more accurately? Devin Gardner seems to be a good pocket QB.
I'd say we would suck. We don't have the line, the right backs, the fullbacks, wideouts, or tight ends. We have what would be a bunch of useless slots. I think a lot of folks would transfer. Prepare for more pain for 2-4 years as we transition back to a prostyle offense. Harbaugh - 2-3 years of sucking.
the OL is good b/c the players are good, they're going to be very good next year in any system.
Denard made some beautiful throws from the pocket all day today (drops everywhere). W/ his improvement this year and work ethic, I wouldn't count him out. In fact, I think the depth chart would look the same at most O positions under Harbaugh
Dee Hart may not come though
what game you were watching with the beautiful throws... fyi, Denard was the quarterback for the team wearing white jerseys.
But seriously, if anyone thinks Denard has thrown the ball well for the majority of Big Ten play, they must be dreamin'. He HAS improved from last year, though, and I hope--I PRAY--that he can improve his touch and accuracy for next year... God knows he's got the strength.
and first year starting qb if you have watched. Does that mean he hits every pass? No more than Henne did.
Denard's missed far too many throws this year, no one knows that more than him. But we're talking 'bout next year - his improvement and potential coming off a phenomenal season would set him up for a great junior campaign.
Talk of moving him to slot just seems ridiculous in light of the year he's had
he would run the same offense at Michigan that he does at Stanford? He would probably adapt somewhat to what he would have.
yeah kb and when it comes down to it, a Quarterback is a Quarterback. Just because one can run, doesn't mean he can't pass the ball. Pryor was a dual threat and Ohio State has a pro-style offense.
All those guys can throw. Besides, if I'm not mistaken I've seen them run a lot of deceptive run plays where Luck tucks it and runs.
Pryor is huge. Denard is not. Size does matter in a pocket passer (unless you are Drew Brees).
Think about 4-5 of Denard's interceptions this year. He was sitting in the pocket, tried to throw it, and was releasing from such a low level that linemen stuck their hands up, got their paws on it, and tipped it to someone on the D. I think DG's the legitimate best pro style QB on the team
That is why I think Devin would still be a good fit for the future no matter who is coach. Tate isn't huge, but I think he would still do good.
I think / hope that Devin is basically Pryor++ (with "saying incredibly dumb shit" functionality removed). And we all know that Tate's grit/Moxie/ability to MAKE PLAYS/intangibles are great. So I agree.
He was awesome.
tell that to Josh Nesbitt he's a horrible passer.
Seriously, if there's one argument for keeping Rich Rodriguez around that leaves me cold, it's "we have a bunch of spread formation guys so we can only run a spread offense so if we let RR go we're gonna suuuuuuuck for another four years. This of course assumes that the next guy will have a rigid system that he will force in all at once without making any allowances for the players he actually has (remind you of anyone?)
If you want to avoid this, there's an easy way to do it: HIRE A FOOTBALL COACH RATHER THAN A SCHEME COACH.
Now that doesn't mean we throw RR overboard, or that Harbaugh is The Man. But if we must replace Rodriguez, we make sure the new guy has a broad understanding of different strategies and systems, and can adapt until he has the athletes to run his preferred schemes. That way we make the most of the players we have.
When he had Clarette, he lined it up and played Tressle-ball. When he had Troy Smith, he ran the QB all over the field. When he had inexperienced Pryor, he handed off. When he had experienced Pryor, he let him pass from the pocket.
He's a coach, he's not just a "system" guy. As a result he is 9-1 against us.
Rich Rod needs to put an emphasis on special teams and defense next year to save his job. Furthermore, the transition to the pro-style system wouldn't be as drastic as the transition to the read-option spread. If I remember correctly, we ran the ball down Iowa's throat with a one back formation.
Tate would be option #1 at this point. He's shown an ability to make plays when he was a full-time starter in 2009. If Denard can become a more solid pocket passer, he'd be alright. He's got great arm strength. Devin is probably a couple years away still from being a major option.
So you're seriously going to sit Denard Robinson down? Are you insane? Did you actually watch any Michigan football this fall?
In a pro style? Dernard maybe not, but Tate was good enough for Harbaugh to recruit. And Devin is big enough for any system. And that's even saying that he would run a pro system completely. Some coaches tailor their team to the talent they have. It doesn't have to all be done the way we did it, with overhaul and turnover.
But I'm not even pushing for anybody. Anybody who didn't want us to win today should be shot. And winning would have ended all this back and forth. But it wasn't even close. So 9 more months of this.
Right or wrong, Rich Rodriguez is probably done. This is a results based business and coaches are paid to win now with whatever players they are given AND build for the future. At smaller less successful programs, they can tinker and show little tangible progress for years on end and plead for patience.
At Michigan, there is too much at stake.
Time to turn it over to a coach who will maximize the roster now and build a champion on into the future. Just because it has been pretty much proven that Rich isn't that guy, doesn't make him a bad coach.
What's wrong is firing a coach after three years, when there has been improvement. We can argue all day about how much, or break it down by offense and defense. But we're in a bowl game. (Wooh.)
I don't recall big-name coaches knocking down the walls to come and coach at Michigan three years ago. Big-name coaches are watching now; and they'll cross Michigan off their lists if they think RR is being treated unfairly. Three years is not enough time, unless the program is obviously flailing. Any coach deserves five years, IMO, but at least 4.
And maybe DB can get Harbaugh, and even an assurance from him before he flips the switch. But most of us can agree that it would be bumpy for a year or two with JH. When you're improving each year, do you want to risk a step back?
Remember, this is the guy who said this:
"Michigan's...athletic department has ways to get borderline guys in, and when they're in, they steer them to courses in sports communications. They're adulated when they're playing, but when they get out, the people who adulated them won't hire them."
Does DB want to hire a guy who gave the University a black eye? For the life of me, I can't understand why he would even say such a thing. What did he gain from it?
DB needs to focus on finding a first-rate defensive coordinator, and giving him carte blanche. RR can have some input in the decision, too.
Denard and Devin are gone if Harbaugh comes
So your saying a QB wouldn't want a former Michigan QB to come and be a mentor? I think a QB will be the last to transfer.
I doubt DG would leave.
As much as Denard (and to some extent, Devin) love RR, I really think they've fallen in love with the campus. I'm not sold that he/they'd transfer out. Plus, if DG leaves, getting a new name would be a bitch
They"re here because of the system... Michigan has a beautiful campus but Miami is a lot warmer and hotter girls. Denard and Devin are not harbaugh style quarterbacks
Unless you have some quote or proof to back that up, I'm going to remain skeptical. Denard isn't a Harbaugh style quarterback, I'll give you that. But Devin? He has undoubtedly a better arm (even if his technique is raw) than Tate. Just because he's mobile, he's not a Harbaugh QB? Besides, position switch has always been a possibility for Denard, he knows that. I still think he loves the school, and would at least consider staying around and moving positions.
Harbaugh would not play Denard or Devin... the bluebloods are mad now that Denard is quarterback. They will not be here if Harbaugh is coach neg me all you want but its the truth
Why the heck would DG leave..He can play in any system and will be a redshirt frosh next year. He is from Inkster not Miami...As for Denard...I really don't know, but neither do you. I know this..they were both higher rated QB's coming out of highschool then Harbaugh has had the oppertunity to work with so far so at the very least he will give them a shot. You saying otherwise does not make it true.
Hey I can play that game too. fI RR stays as coach next year fab5 will be giving handjobs on the corner for spare change neg me all you want but its the truth
If i remember correctly wasn't Devin considering florida coming out of high school. for you to say he wouldn't leave you're the idiot.. The reason he pick michigan was because it was very similar to his high school system at Inkster. Harbaugh will not play them he will try to make them wide outs or corners before he lets them play quarterback.. Harbaugh would never have recruited denard or devin
He also came here because he grew up in, you know, Inkster, and loves the university. I'm not saying that there's no way he'd transfer, but he didn't come here JUST for the system or the coaching staff, he's always been a Michigan fan.
and Denard wasn't even ranked as a QB as he was considered either a CB or athlete. Actually do some research before spewing misinformation. I remember watching Luck on ESPN vs. Sam McGuffie and Cy-Fair and he tore them up. Luck was a 4 star and the #4 rated pro style QB according to Rivals and #68 in the Rivals 250 which is higher than any QB we have on the roster as they were all in the 130 range.
Denard's life is in Michigan now.. All of his friends and more importantly, his girlfriend are in Michigan. Think back to when you were a 20 year old kid, you want to be around your friends and girlfriend more than your family.
1. Harbaugh has FUCKING RUN A SPREAD BEFORE! Hesus H Crimminy you'd think Harbaugh was automatically as stuborn as RR to run his scheme no matter what, which isn't the cas.
2. So Andrew Luck is some immobile home who never runs?
3. Devin Gardner would eventually do very well in a pro-style offense, which gives him a better shot at going to the NFL.
That is all.
Gardner would start....he's got the got the size and poise, he can really thtow and scramble
she would be King. RR is coming back.
What if did and wore drag?
Then he would be the King of Queens, i.e. an unfunny sitcom.
...a coaching search in 2011-2012 in which we have to choose someone's position coach who was a failed FCS coach (i.e. Tennessee now as they're program has had *that* much damage done to it).
It's easier to turn a scrambling QB into a pro style QB, than it is the other way around. If a different offense was implemented I wouldn't foresee any major hurdles, besides picking a starter out of the three gems we have.
I don't think Denard could play QB in a pro style offense, and Tate's iffy too. I think DG would be the best pro style QB of any we have. Denard could still make an impact as a SR/RB though
If a different offense was implemented I wouldn't foresee any major hurdles...
A lot of us, myself included, didn't foresee any "major hurdles" at changing to the spread; we all know how that turned out. The personnel at Michigan is much better-adapted to outrun people as opposed to overpowering them.
Another system change would entail at least two more years of misery and wouldn't guarantee that the team does any better than losing bowl games to elite teams as they did to Texas and USC under the old regime. This team is on the right path. It just requires a bit more patience.
The reward will be well worth the wait.
JH ran a spread at San Diego. Crazy idea but he could have Tate as the QB and Drob as a Desmond type of receiver and return man.
So you're going to make a receiver out of a guy who just threw for nearly 2500 yards and rushed for something like 1600? Really?
So he then has like 1000 yards receving, because he is phenomenally talented after all, and you just made Roundtree, Stonum, Junior, etc less effective because they aren't getting the ball much.
Tate then rushes for 600 yards or so, max.
I'm thinking we just dropped about 2500 yards of offense somewhere.
Now, fill us in on the rest of your plan.
Hasn't Roy had something like 20 drops this year?
I would keep RRod with little hesitation if Dave Brandon called me and told me it was my decision (Ke$ha is his ringtone on my phone), but a.) don't think our QBs would struggle mightily in a hybrid pro system b.) think Harbaugh is a caveman coach who wouldn't utilize Denard's silly potential in a hypothetical scheme (whether it would be as successful for DRob's particular talents as the godfather of the Shred and Spread is debatable). Harbaugh has already shown some neat innovation and flexibility in changing the offense post-Gerhart and imagine this year's OSU offense if Tressel wasn't an uberconservative troll and smart enough to be a Michigan grad.
Why so much love for Harbaugh, I thought four years ago everyone was calling for Lloyd's head because he couldn't win enough, now everyone wants to go back to that. Harbaugh is not going to win multiple MNC like I believe with enough time RR can. If Uof M goes and hire another hier to Bo we will once agian be stuck in the stoneage of football. Do you think Saban came from the Bear coaching tree.
I for one am sick of playing for a Rose Bowl while the rest of the country plays for A MNC.
An Insight Bowl once every 3 years?
Playing in the Rose Bowl is an awful fate that no program should have to suffer through
Oh, that's right, none. When his WVU team actually had a chance to play in the MNC in 2007, they choked at home as a 28 pt favorite and lost to a terrible Pitt team.
The fact that some UM fans are STILL convinced that UM will be a dominant power under RR is absolutely mind boggling.
...I honestly think many on this board are more invested in having Rich Rodriquez succeed then they are in ?Michigan (look at the completely unfair stereotypes and outright dismissal of RR critics, the endless parade of ridiculous excuses, etc.).
Harbaugh has experience running a spread - he did so at the University of San Diego when he was there before his current gig at Stanford. I don't know why people assume he's married to a pro-style system. Even in the system he runs now, Luck is used as a rushing threat now and then (and he's not exactly Denard-fast).
Geez, after all the time I spent last year arguing to keep Denard at quarterback last year, I'm shocked that no one suggested that maybe a top 5 rusher would probably make a pretty good RB too. Devin is a pocket passing QB, it's quite clear when he gets on the field that he doesn't want to be a RB. He can place a long ball as good as anyone I've seen, and as his mechanics and throwing ability mature, he would make a great pocket passing QB. Tate is just going to do whatever he can do to get it done on the field, he'll adjust as need be.
I don't think Denard has the physical build to play tailback. There's more to the position than just carrrying the ball. He's a QB.
Yeah, probably one or two of our fine QBs would transfer. But we might be losing Tate regardless. Harbaugh should be able to succeed with whomever remains. He was, after all, a quarterback. And other qbs will be dying to play for him.
Completely ignoring the pro or anti RichRod argument, your claim that none of DG, Tate, or Denard could run an offense under Harbaugh is absurdly wrong. DG is an ideal QB in any system, and Harbaugh ran a spread variation at SDSU, so this is a strawman argument anyway.
nope, we barely won three games and got blown out in all of our losses. we were just as close to 4-8 as we were to 7-5.
We need Harbaugh now. He would find a way to be bowl-eligible next year regardless of personnel which is where RR failed.
If I'm not mistaken, Harbaugh's team is 11-1 right now, ranked #6 in the BCS, probably headed to the Rose Bowl, (in your face MSU!) lost only to the #1 ranked team in the nation, and has beaten Southern Cal three times. Harbaugh played in the NFL for several years, played in the Rose Bowl, played QB for the Michigan Wolverines during the Bo Schembechler halcyon days ... Yeah, you're right. No reason anyone would want to stick around and play for him.
every coach is a system guy who cannot run an offense without a specific QB. Look at Texas (Vince Young), OSU (Pryor, Smith), VaTech (Vick). These coaches have had both running first QBs, pocket passers, and guys in between.
Why do you believe Harbaugh is inflexible?
Why the F would Denard transfer? He loves Michigan, is about the team, and knows he won't project as a QB in the NFL. So if anything, playing slot would be good for his future.
Tate for sure would be okay. Gardner would probably excel as well. Unfortunately, I don't think denard would be the starter, but who knows! If he improves his passing the same amount from season 2 to 3 as he did from season 1 to 2, then he very well could be the starter.