You have to allow him another year to prove himself. If he doesn't do anything then he's canned. Both Dantonio and Belein took longer than 3 years to turn their programs around so you give him one more year.
In support of Brady Hoke - three years and a positive direction
Actually, I supported him for longer than some others. But if we agree we may have pulled the plug on RR too soon, isn't that all the more reason not to do it again?
As someone who still thinks firing RR was wrong, I completely agree.
I would have liked to see RR get one more year, but it was clear he lost the team. I felt that was the main difference between RR an Hoke. Though the team struggled the past two years, Hoke had not lost control.
But then I see the quotes from Frank Clark, and I just don't know.
What were Clark's quotes? I guess I missed them
For those who didn't see: Frank Clark said that the struggles weren't on the coaches, but that some of the guys on the team lost the will to play as a family.
Hoke--not necessarily his staff deserves 4 years and maybe 5--though, if memory serves me, I don't remember those now advocating a 4th and 5th year defending that approach 3 years ago. But that was different, because....
I thought RichRod got the shaft (haha) by only getting 3 years, simply for the fact of not having your guys as established players. I'd now shit so many bricks if Hoke was fired after 3. I agree with the posters fearful of us becoming Notre Dame.
We're asking Hoke to build a house but bitching about him working on the foundation. What if we'd fired Beilein after 3? Give guys time.
We fire him without waiting to see if he's a good coach or not?
Truthfully. At this point. I'm afraid he's not. Here's why.
He's a hands off head coach who tells his guys what he's looking for but then lets them providethe product. What he should be responsible for as a head coach should be game management. Michigan's 2 minute offense is slower than most teams normal offense. There is a complete lack of tempo or urgency to this team in the worst of situations. Taking timeouts because 45 seconds isn't enough time to get set for a play in the middle of a drive? Not good.
His game management is terrible and that's what he's there for. Since he's not calling the plays and not directing the style, he needs to do a better job on game managemnt and he just isn't. I like him. Think he may turn out ok. He recruits well and the players seem to like him. But this team is just a disaster, not just from win-loss point of view.
He still needs another year or two and it's what RR should have gotten. RR's downfall was his refusal to let a DC come in and do the job and without his best friends. If he had been willing to hire a new DC and let him hire the assisstants and pick the scheme, I would have been good with RR staying. I suppose if Brandon would have allowed him $1M for a DC, we wouldn't have been having these conversations.
Brady's a Michigan Man! MANBALLL!!!!!!!!!
Everyone that "mattered" hated him.
Yes let's fire coaching staffs every 3 years and turn into Notre Dame. Always the next coach, always the next guy, he'll be the savior, until he isn't, then get a new coach, wash, rinse , repeat. Forever returning to glory.
Notre Dame was bad for so long because they hired terrible coaches. Not because they didn't give them enough time.
and they won their bowl game this year. Maybe we need to admit that they currently are more relevant than Michigan is. Just sayin
Josh Groban happened.
Then Mississippi State happened.
Hokes worst season resulted in the same record as rich rods best year.
I agree hoke has one more year to prove himself, but rich rod lost any extra patience with two bowl less seasons
"Four and out" wouldn't have made any sense.
Belein took his team to the tournament in year 2 after a long drought and Dantonio's teams were competitive from his first year there on. I guess it depends on how you define turnaround. I guess around these parts some coaches deserve more than three years, nay, are entitled to more than three years while the previous coach is the source of everything evil despite the pinnacle of his talent ending up in the Sugar Bowl under a different staff, and that staff has proceeded to do worse each year. I will be shocked if Michigan exceeds their win total next year since the head man is unwilling and unable to take responsibility and make the right changes.
You can make a case for the rest of your post, but to be fair, Hoke's teams so far have been just as competitive as Dantonio's were when he first started coaching at State. I wouldn't be too upset if Borges and Funk were gone, but I don't think it's fair to assess Hoke yet when comparing him to the beginning of Dantonio's tenure at MSU. Hoke and co. had to be doing something right to get RR recruits to the Sugar Bowl one year after being dismantled at the end of the previous season and the biggest reason for that was the complete turnaround of the defense.
Hoke and company were extremely lucky that year. That was not a typical 11-2 team. ND gave away the game. OSU did not have a head coach. VT dominated us and only two lucky catches by Junior bailed us out. We played well against Neb and should have won in Iowa. The schedule was a joke.
There was another thread on this board about the number of close wins and losses. I think we take into account totally random wins (ND in 2011) and losses (PSU in 2013), this coaching staff's record is about 7-8 wins a year.
So, let's not put too much weight on the record. Rather let's look at how each team improved or did not improve throughout the year. In this regard, this is a below average coach staff.
3 years...each one worse than the last. fail. next.
Replied in wrong spot
RR had a much worse record than Hoke has and everyone of the games weren't even close.
his reecruiting class being "top drawer" is also wrong - the class has been a disappointment and not lived up to their over-rated hype
Within the context of the Big Ten, and even if you want to include 2011 (which really isn't fair, in my estimation), this isn't exactly a supported statement. We have, for the last few years, had the second or third ranked class in the conference consistently (including the very much in progress 2014 class). I suppose I am not sure exactly what you are referencing here. We can argue about coaching and development perhaps, but from most other perspectives, we have certainly been competitive and have attracted some top shelf talent. Regardless, and especially with 2012 and 2013, it's way too early to say what you're saying. You've no data, I suspect.
You're drawing conclusions on the 2012 and 2013 classes, even though they've been on campus two and one year, respectively? Even for the 2011 class it's pretty early.
A) few of them were very good freshmen, when comparing to other teams' excellent freshmen.
B) that the Heiniger Certainty Principle doesn't apply to these high-rated classes. After 4-5 years, the high-end of these '12-'13 classes should be better than serviceable against people of equal or lesser experience and weight room time. That should be like the minimum and not satisfying anyone that our 4-5* eventually play like 3*.
C) 12-24 starts or chances to start (which all of Hoke' s classes have now) is more than many teams' (teams with depth) juniors have. Got to base thoughts on some kind of data.
Speaking of "12-24 chances to start" is pretty silly. This isn't basketball, where you can expect guys to step in and make an instant impact. Four-star football recruits aren't guaranteed to be ready to go right away. Their ranking is based more on a projection of where they'll be a couple of years down the line. In any event, I would argue that we've had a fair number of underclassmen show promise this season.
It's too early to evaluate those classes. Saying that they haven't panned out because they aren't superstars as freshmen or sophomores is just venting. You ultimately can't evaluate a class until it's finished.
I agree you can make a case to support Hoke and Mattison. That's all I've got to say.
We should sign Hoke to a 10 year extension.
Awesome results. Awesome entertainment. Awesome experience. Awesome brand. Awesome curly fries. Awesome football.
You're really hitting your stride now. It's nice to see MGoUser and context achieve such synergy.
There's no way to know how good a coach Hoke can be unless we give him a fair shake at coaching HIS players with HIS coaches. Anything less and it's Notre Dame all over again. Keep in mind that Nick Saban had a shaky first few games at Alabama...
please. Hoke is getting his 4th year because he is Brandon's hire. He has proven he is not much of a coach.
Compare Hoke's results to Urban Meyer's (Urbs also gets much more poduction out of his high rated recruits). THAT is what a top coach accomplishes.
Right on. People on this board would fire folks after one bad game. Is anyone happy with 7-6? No, most of all being Hoke. We have a program full of young men we can all be proud of and a solid list of recruits coming into their own.
Absolute faith in Hoke.
So you're postulating there has been no improvement from Gallon, Gardner, funchess, Morris, Ross, Morgan, Bolden, Gedeon, or others? I wholeheartedly disagree
Though everyone is quite understandably freaked out with the defense after the bowl, I think it's safe to say everyone on this board has at least an ounce of hope that the defensive staff knows what it's doing.
But the offense, on the other hand... that's where it gets messy. Has Gardner improved? No, not really. In fact it seemed like he did better at QB when he spent the last 3 months practicting as a WR. He was widly inconsistent this year and suffers from the same mistakes that Denard did. The common denominator there is coaching. Morris? The guy was an extremely highly touted recruit and has played one game... might wanna hold off on that one.
It's pretty clear there has been absolutely zero improvement in the running game so I won't even bother to cover that one.
As for the wide receivers, they've been good... but really, is that on the coaches? Let's go through the rounds... Gallon? The guy is a RR recruit and a spread-offense prototype. How is this supposed to make me feel good about Borges's offense going forward? Funchess? It took our staff a year and a half to realize the guy is a mini-Megatron, and even then, the overwhelming consensus on this board is that the guy has been underutilized.
What about the TEs? Jake Butt had a decent performance against OSU but again, it's very hard to say the guy is an awesome success story based on basically one game. Overall, the TEs were just as bad at blocking as the interior O-line this year.
Why do we give the defensive staff a pass? Who has gotten markedly better on defense over the past two years? Frank Clark? Countess? Just because we like Mattison more than Borges doesn't mean the defense has been any better than the offense.
I'd say Gardner has improved from last year. Could it be the inconsistency is born from Borges having an offseason to prepare Gardner, and so he is running more than just the bare bones of the offense like they gave Gardner last year?
If you don't think Gallon has improved from where he was in 2010, then you're really just seeing what you want to see. Gallon couldn't even catch a punt to save his life, let alone get on the field as a receiver. He just broke the record for most receiving yards in a season.
There has been improvement from a lot of players individually on both sides of the ball, they just need to start playing as a team. That comes from experience.
Look at DG's 2012 and 2013 stats. He did improve, at least statistically, despite being consistently beat up throughout November. He also cut down on the turnovers in the second half of the season.
The biggest knock and hole in development was on the OL and next year is when we should start to see that progress. The RBs struggled but part of that was vision/hitting holes and the other part was the complete lack of push by the OL.
Clubbing baby seals makes anyone's stats better. Spending a whole year at Qb vs less than half a year makes anyone's stats better. Not having a running game and being forced to throw inflates stats.
There's plenty more evidence that Hoke isn't the coach to get it done. Yes, he's healed many of the fractures around the program. Now everyone has rallied around a mediocre at best program.
We've already become Notre Dame and have been returning to glory since 1997!
Cocaine is a helluva drug.
Bo went 6-6 and lost to BYU in the Holiday Bowl. If there was a blog back then, it would have melted down.
I was in school during that 6-6 season and the 10-1-1 wonderful 1985 season.
Bo had won before - the question was "was he getting washed up?" - same kind of heat that Mack Brown took at Texas.
Perles was hot shit at MSU after winning at UM in '84.
Agree with you though, a BLOG and Bo would have been "retired" by many. But was hard to win with Chris Zurbrugg at QB. In Bo's Lasting Lessons book, he talks about that 6-6 season almost fondly, because of how we turned it around in '85.
Hoke needs to pull off at least one big road win next year and not have a home loss crapper.
The team needs to play better, consistently throughout the season. The fans don't just show up at the end of games to see who won; they sit through the entire game, watching the mistakes and the lack of execution, energy and drive. It's tough to stomach the losses but it's even harder to watch this team play poorly week in and week out, even with a win (see Akron and Connecticut).
Comparaing the 1984 season to what Brady Hoke has done here is literally the dumbest thing I have ever seen on this blog
Yeah, so Bo had been an established HC at Um for 15 years in 1984 and f'ed up OsU and MSU during that time. You might as well compare our three year coach to John Wooden, George Hallas or Scott Bowman.
I stated a relationship between Bo's season and a blog meltdown - if there was a blog back then. I know Bo, and Brady is no Bo.
Exept that year, there was a direct cause and effect. I don't think the hypothetical blog would be melting down over a .500 year when we lost our starting QB halfway through the season.
And it's easy to just use BYU as a name loss and say "Oh we lost to BYU, how horrible!".
Until you look up BYU's 1984 season, and see that they were the goddamned National Champions that year.
And their only "signature" victory was against a six win Michigan team. BYU was the mnc that year, but they never played any decent teams. They were not a great team and likely would have been pantsed by a dozen teams that played more difficult schedules but had one or more losses.
Do you actually know anything about the 1984 season aside from reading the final record on a Wikipedia table?
I also know that Al Gore had not yet invented the Internet for public use. Which means there was no blog at the time of Bo's 1984 team. My point was the potential meltdown of this site if it was in existance. Do you see how people half read things and jump to conclusions based on their "ability" to be right all the time?
devastated due to injury and they still nearly beat the "national champs" in the Holiday Bowl. Robbie Bosco (I think) threw about 60 times without a single holding call. I don't bitch about officiating much, but that one still sticks in the ol' craw.
For some reason I was thinking it was Jim McMahon in that game, but I looked it up: you're right, it was Bosco. The lack of holding calls also set Bo off, so you were in good company. Every now and then somebody brings up BYU's national championship, then there's the statement, "yeah but they didn't play anybody" which invariably prompts a response, "well, they did beat Michigan." Almost nobody (except Michigan fans) remember that that was the worst Bo coached team ever (at least going by record). finishing 6-6.
Harbaugh went down. at least 2 other QBs went down. played (and almost beat BYU) with our #4 QB (who would that even be on this team?) . other key injuries that year. Nobody was down on Bo, thought he was a wizard for nearly beating unbeaten BYU, who had a famous rally to win. Robbie Bosco on a sprained ankle, anyone?
Keep Hoke, I'm fine with getting rid of all the other coaches.
2014 is a joke of a schedule besides our rivals. It is a very top heavy schedule. Hoke must go 10-2 or he will be canned but we must give him this chance.
"Hoke inherited a program that was fractured."
Unfortunately If we continue on our downward spiral next year and he ends up getting let go he will probably leave one fractured as well.
Hoke also won 11 games with that fractured team which were mostly Rich Rod's players, now we went 7-6 with a blend.
Thank you for this. The desperate need to blame all of the current staff's shortcomings on Rich Rod, and to credit give RR's players no credit for the success of the 2011 season (the OP claims that success was all based on Lloyd Carr's 5th year seniors) is laughably stupid. Maybe the OP is Dave Brandon.
Beilein was in his 4th season at Michigan and had one NCAA trip. We were 1-6 in the B1G and it looked like he was toast, if not that season, after the next. We had lost 6 games in a row.
I was in Toronto on business that week. Earlier in the week, was in the hotel bar and a MSU fan was there. After being nice for a few minutes, he turned into a real Spartan dick, bragging about how many years since UM beat MSU in any meaningful sport, blah blah blah. "Sucks to be a Michigan fan" I could see he wanted a fight and wisely got out of there when he went to the john (not sure how many of you have run into a drunk Spartan ASS lately, but they are among the worst pinheads known to mankind).
Thursday of that week, we pulled a stunner at East Lansing, 61-57, and went 8-3 rest of season. Made tourney and lost nailbiter to Duke. Next season, won share of B1G title. Last year Final Four.
Hoke's big chance is October 25th at MSU next year, after a BYE week. If he wants to turn the fanbase around, that needs to be his 1st ROAD signature win.
Yea, because showing up at Spartan Stadium after a BYE week worked so well this year.
The BYE week and the three weeks of practice before the bowl game were a waste.
Just saying IF Hoke is ever going to get a signature ROAD win, October 25th at MSU would shut up a lot of Spartans and make me think he's capable of fixing things.
Ya know what, going 11-2 in 2011 after getting shelled by Mississippi State convinced me he can turn things around. Hoke didn't inherit the talent and depth that Urban Meyer did at Florida and OSU. He didn't inherit the talent and stability that Jimbo Fisher did at FSU. Nor did he find himself in a dedicated and fertile recruiting paradise like Mack Brown did at Texas, or Pete Carroll in southern California.
Brady Hoke inherited a program in shambles, one that was a virtual wasteland. All he has done is recruit top talent, something that has been missing for a long time. He is rebuilding from the ground up. The fact that we have seen so many true freshmen in key roles the past two years is evidence of the depletion of talent he inherited.
All these young guys are going to be really good. Hoke deserves 2-3 more years. If they aren't a legitimate contender in that time frame, maybe he isn't the guy. I am thoroughly convinced that he is, and they will be, and everybody will say, "Ha! Remember when we wanted him fired?"
If going 11-2 in 2011 after going 7-6 in 2010 and getting shelled by Mississippi State is a turnaround, then what is going 7-6 in 2013 and getting shelled by Kansas State after going 11-2 in 2011?
It's called a setback. It happens to everybody that has ever been successful. There is a huge difference between what KSU did to us, and what Mississippi State did to us three years ago. Next year, after this setback, will be a breakout year.
from your post:
"Brady Hoke inherited a program in shambles, one that was a virtual wasteland."
are you, like, 9 years old?
without going on a long rant, let me remind you that Brady Hoke inherited a sophomore who has just been named Big 10 Offensive Player of the Year. I understand that 3 years of watching Hoke abdicate offensive decision-making to a journeyman OC........with mind numbingly bad results....effects your brain, but Hoke inherited plenty.......and far more than RR ever had on campus.
He is just not much of a coach. Other than ND (who RR also beat), what are Hoke's big wins? Against a 6-6 OSU team? the lucky lucky win againt VT?
Three years in, who are the big contributions of his recruits? I see impact freshman and sophs all over.
Your point total is indicative of who is closer to nine years old. That is all.
with the bye week before the road trip to UCONN, the team was adequately prepared that game also.
No, the bye was before Minnesota, which ended up being perhaps our best performance of the season.
There is no comparison between the rebuilding process Beilein needed to do with Michigan Basketball, and the kind of program and tradition and infrastructure Brady Hoke inherited with Michigan Football, even after the RR misadventures. It's apples and oranges.
The scale was/is vastly different. You're talking about a 1/5 ratio between the rosters, that's a lot. Yes the hoops team was a total shambled mess, but football was pretty bad too.
I kinda avoid Sparty's as I was a giant douche toward them for 30 of the 35 years of my life. I will be hiding in my basement in Dexter until we win 3 straight.
Spot on. That would be a way to change the momentum back. I remember that game so well. Those Sparty Brahs with the numbers painted on their chests and then seeing their jaws drop after the game. I was so amped. Anuerisms of Leadership are the best.
Who is our Zach Novak on this team?
I doubt any of us know but for us to have success next year the team had better find those Gritty McGrittersons.
I wanted RR gone as much as the next guy but can we please stop bashing him? At some point, it's Hoke's team. Devin Gardener, who was a RR recruit, is now Hoke's player. As were Denard, Jeremy Gallon, Vincent Smith, Taylor Lewan, Fitz Toussaint, Jordan Kovacs, Jake Ryan, etc. You know, all those guys who've been instrumental in that record that Hoke hangs his hat on.
Time to stop pulling in the talent card. Other teams do more with less. If Hoke didn't want to coach "spread" guys and phone it in for 3-4 years until "his" guys were in key positions, he shouldn't have taken the job. If the rumors of a fracture in the locker room are true, it's this attitude about "RR guys" that is behind it.
There are certainly some quality players of the RichRod era. Just not enough. And while I love Devin and Fitz, for example, I believe we have brought in the next generation of players to eventually play those roles more effectively (Morris, Green, Smith)
J.T. Turner, Isiah Bell, Vlad Emelien, Tate Forcier, Brandin Hawthorne, Anthony LoLota, J.T. Turner, Cullen Christian, Kenny Wilkins, Stephen Hopkins, Carvin Johnson, Christian Pace, Davion Rogers, Jerald Robinson, Austin White, D.J. Williamson, Ray Vinopal and Conelius Jones concur.
it is hard to ignore the amount of players that washed out from the roster. I do think Hoke was much needed to stablize the roster. He has raised the floor. I just worry about how high the ceiling can be. Really depends on the coordinators.
Still would have liked to have seen RR get a 4th year though and think Hoke absolutely deserves a 4th as year. A 5th season depends on the 4th though.
That's a great summation of the situation.
"They got to take two stars that want to be here and coach em up".
Don't forget Je'Ron Stokes
MR BRANDON IS THAT YOU
Funny considering your username
Recruting classes aren't meant to come in right away to turn around programs. Of course there are a few good ones that help the program, the majority of the class should come to play as upper class men where they provide playmaker s and depth. It would be a travesty to can hoke before the 2015 season. We need to have patience. We're quick to ask for coaching changes but have we all forgotten how end of the last decade turned out?
2015 is hokes crucial year. Not 2014.
Progress in 2014 is required. If they deliver another year like this, all bets should be off. Then I would expect them to be in the mix for the Big Ten title in 2015 when they get to the last game against OSU. He should be held to the same metrics that RR was subjected to:
Red Letter Games
Also, he needs to show he can beat teams with a winning record on the road. It is a travesty that they have not won a game against a winning team on the road in 3 years on the road.
Completely agree, 2015 is the critical year. Upperclassmen on both lines, in the backfield and Morris at the helm.
But after nearly 9 years of awful football, our patience is running thin, 2011 was the bright spot! We've come to point of always saying wait til next year. This is so lionesque!
As long as he guts the coaching staff, and hire some rock stars to coach the team for him.
The staff should be Hoke's call, but if he goes with them and it is the wrong decision he should not be given a Mulligan after next year. He needs to make the defining decision and a live with the outcome.
I still say Mattison is a good coach and he will have the defense playing better. If we have another 7 win season in 2014, then Gorges Borges could be gone.
That's exactly what we wanted.
Here's where I'm at with it. As those who were around know, I was not a RR guy. At all. And I don't see myself getting nostalgic or thinking "what if?" or any of that. The right move was made, even if it took DB an extra 8 weeks than he needed to.
That being said.
WIth RR teams, you knew what you were getting. The offense got better and better, but the defense got worse and worse. Special teams were a trainwreck. The off-the-field vibe was bizarre, from the RR camp to the AD to the alums to the fanbase. But we all pretty much knew the score. And that ended up being part of the problem, as the fanbase just tore itself to shreds along the way.
These past two seasons of Hoke, the offense has been frustratingly inconsistent. The defense has been frustratingly inconsistent. Everyone off-the-field seems generally content, the schisms and infighting seemed to subside, but what has replaced it is a really strange complacency paired with an Athletic Department hellbent on keeping the message consistent and stomping out dissent. And this is the product we get, with little hope for a change in direction until the wheels fall off completely.
What I don't understand is the fact that Brady Hoke is a genuinely likeable guy. Everyone raves about him as a coach and as a person, it seems the family united behind him in this unprecedented way. The recruiting seems off the charts. I just don't understand why it just simply doesn't translate to Saturday afternoons. Every week it's something different, and usually not in a good way.
For all the buildup, the very reputable people in the Michigan family that were eager to run through a brick wall for this guy... Where is it? Why is player development so poor? Why does team morale seem so lacking? Why is the program's identity so incredibly flat?
Plainly, what obvious elephant in the room did we miss here?
I'm beginning to think Hoke is probably just a really good position coach that has been able to delegate his way to enough success along the way as a head coach, but has hit the point where he just can't get by on that anymore. It's not the MAC anymore.
Short answer - youth and depth. It needs time.
Don't worry. Jason Whitlock said Hoke will succeed.
Jason Whitlock said just about every stupid thing imaginable about this team.
For no good reason in particular, he attacked Shane Morris:
Freshman QB Shane Morris started out as a five-star recruit, backed up to four-star, and is now viewed as a guy who is a bit quirky and immature.
He garbled any intelligent understanding of Hoke's recruiting/commitment "policy," in re David Dawson:
Another high-profile lineman, David Dawson, violated Hoke's no-visits policy by taking a trip to Florida after verbally committing to Michigan. Hoke backed down and let Dawson recommit to Michigan.
He attacked Taylor Lewan, for... what, really? For winning the Rimington-Pace Award?
Lewan is the Jadeveon Clowney of the Big Ten, the pampered superstar who's doing his school a favor by suiting up this season.
As far as I can tell, every single word of this missive is mistaken:
There's nothing wrong with Michigan's schemes. Firing offensive coordinator Al Borges won't fix what's wrong with the Wolverines. Hoke doesn't need to parade the sidelines wearing a headset.
I nominate Jason Whitlock for the Big Ten's Rosenberg-Henning Award as the Assclown Writer of the Year. Time; it is such a beautiful thing, when judging a columnist's writing.
I thought you were joking until I clicked the link. More proof that most professional sportswriters have zero idea of what they're talking about.
I'm wondering if ALL coaches need some LOW point in their career to figure out that they need to have courage to change the status quo. Some coaches adjust and move forward from their down year(s), others are swallowed up.
What will happen with Hoke? Not sure, but don't see us plateauing - it will get better or worse in 2-3 years. Worse, if we keep losing 5-6 games and recruits jump ship, better if Hoke can make 9 wins the low bar.
Bo's RB losses forced him to adjust to having a balanced offense, including getting Rick Leach to pass more.
Dantonio went 6-7 in his 3rd year, probably the saving grace being he had an OT win vs. Michigan. But I know Spartan fans thought he was nothing better than an 8-4 coach. In fact, Narduzzi was getting hell after the 2009 season for defensive issues (they gave up average of 34 points in 7 losses). His breakthrough year was 2010, including a road win at Michigan.
I remember the fade during the end of RR era in 2010 (losses to Sparty, Iowa, PSU, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Miss St) - including 3 full-fledged blowouts. RR is better off at Zona, with no pressure and a fan base not used to winning.
Who said a good salesman is also a good leader?? Yes he is great at selling the brand and bringing in recruits but i think Hoke is not the leader this teams need.. He talks the talk but haven seen him yet walk the walk..
I remember when Tressel came to osu and made a promise on his intro speech how his team will be prepare and beat Michigan year in an out..and damn he did so for many years, on top of that won many big ten championships and a national title.. Now thats a coach, that kept his promise (put aside all the craziness that was going on the side with players)
The Peter Principle.
I mean, I say all this without making any kind of statement about where I want things to go. Because I really can't think of any option right now (either firing Hoke, giving him carte blanche, firing a coordinator and/or other assistants, etc.) that could work.
I'm beginning to think the entire exercise is simply unsustainable no matter what we do. This is just a way of speeding up the process of rot and decline, to the extent that I wouldn't mind Michigan going the route of backing off, taking the Stanford route, and rebuilding from the ground up on an identity that genuinely incorporates the school's institutional and academic strength, instead of trying to be an Alabama-type program on the field and a Northwestern off of it. You can't have it both ways, though I think DB's naivety is pushing him to make us believe it can.
Hell, I'm just thinking out loud. Frustration does that to a man.
Go home. You're drunk
I wish I was on my laptop so I could post the clapping gif. I completely agree.
It's that I don't want yet another transition and five years of the same excuses. I am also not sure that there is anyone else out there who is better or that I trust db to get them.
I give hoke another 2 years to see how it goes and see what happens with the 49ers...
I am all for giving Hoke and his staff next year. He needs to keep the program intact without losing significant recruits or current team members and he needs to demonstrate progress on the field. I am not calling for NCs, but 9-3 or 10-2 and beat OSU or MSU next year. If that happens, then it should buy him 2015. If they are not staring a Big Ten Championship in the face in 2015 then go after Harbaugh hard. The foundation will be set and he is the type of personality that will not settle for failure.
Problem with Harbough is that his contract is over this year with 49ers.. So if DB had some huuuuge BALLS he would go offer Harbough a price he could not refuse and ask him to help uofm football tget back to its roots again and keep Hoke in the staff..
But there are a few obsticles, for one Harbough seems to be a pain in the ass to work with because 49ers said that they dont mind if he takes the Texas job, now that tells you something how they feel towards him
Also i am not sure he would go back to college after being soooo succesful in NFL..but then again money talks now days
I didn't think Harbaugh would leave Stanford for a 3 year contract. Based on what I could find, it looks like his contract is up after the 2015 season, but there hasn't been any feedback about extending it beyond 2015. If my information is correct that would fit nicely if things don't work out with Hoke. It is possible that Jim feels snubbed he could start looking sooner and if that is the case, then DB might want to take a close look at the state of the program and if he should swing for the fences with Harbaugh sooner.
He's not coming to Michigan or any college team. Harbough is an NFL coach who just took his team to the Super Bowl with a rookie QB and turned a former 1st round bust into a very productive and safe game manager. Aggression issues or no, I can think of at least two dozen pro teams who would kill to have him as their head coach.
You just hire a guy who does what Hoke does but does it better than Hoke. That is one option. Or you can hire a guy who can win with talent in any system because he knows how to maximize results. That is another option. Or you hire a guy that is brilliant when it comes to one side of the ball to be the head coach and just pay an obscene amount of money to the guy who coordinates the other side of the ball and also happens to be brilliant. These are all options to be a top 25 team next year, and dare I say, in the hunt for a league title.
The problem is the mythology of the Michigan Man has so overtaken the program, that almost none of those type guys would be considered. I fear we may have missed the forest for the trees on that one. Alabama has tons of tradition, yet they hired the ultimate mercenary in Saban, it didn't cost them tradition.
I simply cannot accept that this team doesn't have the raw talent to win a league comprised of teams like Minnesota, Iowa, and a flawed Ohio.
This idea that there has to be more rebuilding and great pain and gnashing of teeth if we hire a new coach is absurd to me. Switch our staff with BOB or Urbz staff right now and double digits wins looks very realistic.
I am all for Hoke getting 2 more years to flush out his vision. But, this season didn't have to go down like this. I think most of us know that in our gut.
I'm not as confident that Hoke is the guy as I was before, but I definitely want to see him at least through next year. This year the redshirt seniors and seniors were the two classes in which almost nobody was retained. Let's see what Hoke can do with his guys as upperclassmen.
Everyone on here needs to look at who's actually on our roster left over from the RR era. The lack of depth is like we got hit with USC/PSU sanctions.
Fun fact: Penn State put up 43 points on a Michigan team with 70 scholarship players on the travel roster. Penn State had 57 scholarship players this year, over a dozen of whom were walk-ons who were only given scholarships because there was no one left. For all intents and purposes, we had twice the D1 team as the Nittany Lions, without the crushing headlines and sanctions.
Yet we're supposed to believe that lack of depth is the reason this team lost in such depressingly complacent fashion? Even with the number of chances Michigan had to beat PSU, the fact that this team couldn't even handle a team like that, much less barely hanging on against Akron at home...
But let's keep pointing to "youth" and "lack of depth" as if we weren't recruiting 4- and 5-star recruits, who other programs across the country manage to have contribute to their program's success without anyone noticing anything out of the ordinary. And those players manage to develop over time, to get better from week to week. Our guys don't.
How many on Hoke's staff are truly top-notch coaches? Mattison I'll give you in spite of the disappointing play of the D this year, but who else? I suspect losing Montgomery might have been a much bigger deal than most of us thought at the time.
Do not find your fact "fun" at all.
People keep talking like we have a roster full of 5 star guys. We have 3, maybe 4. Morris, Kalis, Pipkins, Green. Green and Morris are still freshmen. Morris is a 4 star according to Rivals. Pipkins is out with an ACL and he might not be back until late next year. We have 1 more coming in Peppers.
The 2011 class according to Rivals only had 6 4 star guys. No 5 stars. One of them is out of football. Beyer, Bryant, Countess, Taylor, Hayes. They're playing as RS Sophs and Juniors.
The rest of Hoke's high end recruits are RS/True Freshmen and sophs. So yes. The 4 and 5 star guys that Hoke has pulled in the last 2 years are still young.
"The 2011 class according to Rivals only had 6 4 star guys. No 5 stars."
And the 2010 class was the same: 6 4-star guys. Kenny Wilkins, Demar Dorsey, Marvin Robinson, Cullen Christian, Gardner and Ash.
27 players signed that year, ten or eleven are still with the team depending on whether you count Hagerup. Three others are playing FBS football elsewhere. That's half a recruiting class that dropped out of college football altogether (plus one that dropped down a division but kept playing).
It really is amazing. You expect to have the occasional recruit who realizes after the fact that football, or school, isn't for him. But half a class?
62% to be exact -- based on my own calculations earlier in the year.
The RR leftover narrative is really tired, especially considering that they are the best players on the team. I am waiting to see these great Hoke classes show greatness. Yes he should get next year, but you have to realize he is living off of the RR Recruits (Denard, Devin, Gallon, Ryan, Countess, etc). Show me the Hoke playmakers that are going to turn this thing around please and I am not talking about an incoming freshman DB. I am asking about the prior three highly ranked classes that will now be juniors and seniors!
Actually, the problem was not so much the guys left over from RR, but all the guys who weren't left over, particularly in the 2010 class (two-thirds of whom weren't on the 2013 team).
Along the same lines as the tired narrative, who are the best 5 Michigan players that committed after Hoke was hired?
I'm going to say:
(3) Taylor (lol #3?!)
I know the list does not fit within the conviently crafted narrative, but other than Funchess, opposing coaches are not having a ton of sleepless nights over the rest of those guys.
Come on, dude. Did you forget that the man was hired just weeks before the class of 2011 signed their LOI's? He added a couple guys but most of his players this year were true freshmen and sophomores. Nobody wants to be told to be patient, but really, is there another choice?
Who do we bring in that's going to end up winning with Hokes recruits? Then maybe they don't recruit so well and we end up in the tank for another 5-10 years.
Head coach takes over.
Has 2 upperclassmen QB's, recruited by previous staff. Plays them, because of course you would.
According to you this is 'living off of the previous coaching staff'.
The only narrative about RR's recruiting is the 2010 recruiting class and the handful of players that are left on the roster from it.
Take a look and see how many names are still on the team...
It isn't possible to argue that the current Senior depth is where it needed to be. At the Ohio State game this year the Ohio fans near us asked "is that all there is" when it came to seniors...It's amazing how many in the class washed out.
OP: "But Hoke's initial success depended largely on the recruits of Lloyd Carr still populating the upper classes." That's Brandonseque.
I wouldn't say *largely*. Those guys (Molk, RVB, Hemingway, et al.) were obviously important, but largely makes it sound like they made 70+% of the meaningful contributions. That leaves no room for Denard, Roundtree, Lewan, Omameh, Ryan ... you get the point.
Fair, but if you compare the three most tenured classes from Hoke's first team to this year's, wouldn't you agree there is generally less quallity and quantity?
1. I acknowledge that this staff has some serious flaws and went threw some serious growing pains this year. They are not a finalized big stage product in my mind and have to adapt or die (get fired). The stubbornness and failure to adjust on offense was not good. The on again off again defense that bent and broke several times was also not good. Some of the player execution in game was not great (gap soundness, basic pass catching, that crazy blocking stuff).
2. I am disappointedly not sure their overall ceiling on the staff is as high as I would like it to be either. While I never thought Hoke was Meyer's equal, I really thought Borges and Mattison were the difference. This year I was clearly wrong on this...that said, for some reason unbeknownst to me, I still have faith and I still think they can be the difference in a positive way now that our young kids have a bit of experience.
3. Overall, I found the late Lloyd Carr years extremely frustrating, although I am forever grateful for the Nat championship he delivered. This regime feels like Lloyd v Tressel, not Lloyd v Cooper. I am praying I am worong or they have the courage to shake up enough such that they can avoid such a fate.
4. If I was going to make a change I would get a qb coach and fire Funk right now. They need an outsider, innovator, flexible thinker with enough gravitas to influence and more quickly adapt. They need to show 7-6 is not being tolerated as a result in some way, not just lip service.
5. Clearly this staff can recruit and has established a " family environment". My only fear here is that, just like placating the alumni base, it's easier to do when 11-2 and winning. I am interested to see if they can keep it together now that their worst season is official.
Whoa...sorry for the long post....stressful season....no idea where that all came from.
Hoke deserves another year but he does not give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.
I don't think he deserves another year. He is paid like an elite coach but has not performed anywhere near that level. Since he has not made his mark in three years, he should go. Other elite coaches have to perform in those three years. Hoke has not.
You can't seriously argue that Hoke "didn't perform" in 2011 - that was a great season capped with a BCS victory.
2012 is harder to evaluate - we lost five games, but were competitive in every one except Alabama and we were in first place in our division when we lost our QB to injury. If Denard had been healthy, we'd have probably played Wisconsin for a trip to Pasadena. The final record was disappointing, but pretty understandable given the schedule and QB situation.
This year was bad, no question. But we haven't had three years of this level of play, just one. We went 6-2 in Big Ten play in Hoke's first two years before slumping to 3-5 this year. Do you fire a coach over one bad season?
So in your opinion did 2012 not count or was 8-5 considered a "good year"? I don't think you can have bit both ways and then claim that Hoke had only had one bad year .
Eh, for me the problem is that "warm and fuzzy" is all I see in Hoke. He's the immensely likeable small-town high school football coach and phys ed teacher who's a friend to everybody.
We talking small-town high school coaches who are friends to everybody?
thinks we are headed in a "positive direction" , he is most certainly not watching the same Michigan team i have been seeing.
This team is not good. Not in any area. Its also not getting better. In fact it has gotten much worse in most area's since the season started.
There is a growing realization with Hoke that he is what his record says he is....medicore/average at best and in way over his head at this level.
There is just no way he is now or ever will be in the same class as Urban or even Dantonio.
There are plenty of coaches in just this league that do a lot more with less talented players.
We are just now starting to see the recruiting going south as we lose prized players that we thought we had locked up.
Get real people. We are winning NOTHING with Hoke as coach.
@alwaystrueblue - you officially have the largest divide between username and message contained in your post i've ever seen
this has nothing to do with talent. There were too many games this year we shouldve won. plus you throw in Uconn and Akron. This was the easiest schedule i can remeber.
Two years ago, we heard how good the 2014 D would be once guys like Ross, Bolden, Morgan, etc. had time in the system. I haven't lost faith in Mattison that he can't fix what was screwed up at times this year.
Really, the D cost us the Ohio game and perhaps last night (not sure if we'd win anyway) and maybe PSU game (though Gardner handed them two easy TDs). The Indy game was a shootout.
But our D kept us in the MSU game and was the main reason we were in the game at Iowa. Same thing at UConn.
Develop a Top 10 O-Line and this D could be decent enough to win 10 games.
The defense is the bigger problem. They were just terrible last evening
All hail the pizza man!
Thank you for the summary of the last few years, but I completely disagree. Other coaches at big time programs take over fractured programs and succeed. Hoke has not succeeded. In my opnion, this shows that he will NOT succeed.
The problems on this team go farther than just youth and depth. Ross said himself the team wasn't ''totally into the game''. Who's responsible for that?
It has been the same ALL SEASON. Hoke and co do not get the players properly motivated for games. Period. We will see the same thing next year.
Honestly, I got the sense from the player rotations that the coaches were treating this game as an exhibition game to help players get ready for next year and help decide who should start in the future. I don't know if this was the intent or not, but I don't know how else to explain some of the substitutions and downs some of the 2nd and 3rd stringers were playing.
They were missing assignments, missing tackles and not being aggressive.
Honestly, I got the sense from the player rotations that the coaches were treating this game as an exhibition game to help players get ready for next year and help decide who should start in the future. I don't know if this was the intent or not, but I don't know how else to explain some of the substitutions and downs some of the 2nd and 3rd stringers were playing.
If Hoke wants MANBALL, he can start by having some more real hitting next Spring and not pretend walkthroughs, using the "depth" excuse for limiting it to a glorified flag football contest.
Tackling last night and much of the season was AWFUL - guys have from April to August to heal.
What the hell would Hoke be doing then? I want him more involved in all 3 phases so he can do more than just clap on the sideline.
Now that the season has been put to bed, we'll see how the coaching staff reacts. The powers that be (e.g. the AD) clearly didn't like what he saw with RR. Next year's schedule isn't that attractive for fans but it may be critical for this staff. They need a good result.
Must have a lot of noon kickoffs next year. I love Tim Horton's glazed donuts. MMMMMMM!
It's going to be comical how empty the student section is next year.
Messing up is normal and part of the game, BUT messing up at the magnitude this team has..now that comes down on coaching..when the players themselves admit to not being "in" the game, then something is wrong big time..as much as this sucks i dont mind giving Hoke another year but the staff needs to be moved around..
In the mean time if I was DB i would start looking and keep my options opened and start talking to some agents, because Hoke is not the HC we are looking for..he can be part of the staff but thats it...IMO
on the coaching staff yet, Borges included (though I am closest to losing faith in his ability). Hoke and company deserve two more years - many of the losses this year could be turned into wins next year. That said, fans really need to quit with the excuses that involve the schedule, planning for ideal years where everyone is an upperclassman, and the "we are young at X position". Every single team in the country plays young guys at key positions and every year we will have young or inexperienced players at QB, WR, RB, or whatever.
"Hoke and company deserve two more years"
You are out of your mind
Fitting young guys into an experienced team is one thing but that's not what Hoke had to work with. He had basically a first year QB, with a young line, WR and TE. He had maybe a bit more on the defensive side but let's not kid ourselves...the defense was declining under Carr and criminally neglected by Rodriguez. Look at the depth chart...Hoke has had to basically rebuild the entire defense. This hasn't been about adding a young stud to a solid defensive backfield, linebacking crew or defensive line.
A first-year quarterback? Even if he spent a year at wideout, Devin Gardner has been in the Michigan football program for four years. Devin Funchess is a sophomore who managed to be the best TE in the freaking conference. Young WR's? Gallon was a senior. Dileo was a senior. Chesson is a RS freshman. Jeremy Jackson is a senior. Reynolds is a RS senior.
Honestly, these facts are really something. You should try them.
In any given year, we will have inexperienced players at any one of those positions, or more than one during some years.
I think calling Hoke's first three years "a success" is a stretch. He himself said he wants Michigan to compete for Big Ten championships, and so far we haven't even been in that game, Even worse, the trend so far has been away from rather than toward it. So Hoke has been a failure by his definition, not so?
I want Hoke to succeed because I want Michigan to succeed, and he's our coach. But I'm having a hard time seeing a big change of direction at the moment, especially if he keeps the staff as is. I certainly hope another year of experience enbles the players to be coached up so they can execute. But at the moment I'm still in the depression stage.
I would agree that Hoke should be given a full 5 years, but after this season if we have another implosion like this year, then some heads need to roll. If Hoke isn't willing to let underperforming coordinators go, then DB needs to end it after 4 years. And for the next coaching search we need to get out of the whole "Michigan Man" mindset for hiring a coach. Get the best man for the job, not the guy that everyone loves initially. If he wins, no one will care if he's a from the family tree.
I completely agree with this post. Hoke has been sending out competitive squads with teams full of mostly first and second year players. RichRod was was getting blown out on a semi-consistent basis, yet some are mentioning he wasn't given enough time, while at the same time saying Hoke and company need to go. Quite a counterintuitive line of thinking.
The fact that Al Borges still has a job today tells you that our head coach isn't very smart. Unless he's waiting til tomorrow to pull the trigger.
I'm on the fence about firing Hoke right now. We have a solid class coming in, and I don't know who's available for us ATM. Either way I know he's not the guy.
Hey, everyone has a breaking point. Maybe next year when Hoke's 1-3 on msu and osu, people like OP will wake the fuck up.
Please tell me, why hasn't Glen Mason divorced your ass? :P
I support Hoke. He is still getting his players into the program and we are young. Maybe I'm more patient than most people. Look at his time at Ball State. His first four years were pretty bad then he went 7-6 and 12-1. It takes time to build a program.
We are not trying to build a shitty MAC team, 7-5 then 12-1 hmmm looks like he had 4 shitty years and 1 great season.
Hoke had 1 good year at Ball State and 1 good year at SDS. He didn't stay long enough to be credited with building a program at either place. He had never been a head coach or even a coordinator at a major college before getting the Michigan job---and I appreciate the same could have been said about Bo (Hoke ain't Bo). I am all for giving him 1-2 more years, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking he has somehow earned it. Keeping him has much more to do with how we want to run a program than anything owed to Hoke or his staff.
This thread will be fun to read. I think
can say essentially the same thing i was saying without anyone bitching about what your user-name is.....lol.
I better change mine to....Glen Masons Hot Piece On The Side.
about "derailing" the progress we've made. First off, what progress? We have gotten worse every year since Hoke got here. Second, why is everyone acting like difficult transitions are some immutable law of nature? We had a rough time with RR because of the system, and allegedly we're having a rough time with Hoke because RR didn't recruit O-linemen. This does not mean that a potential new head coach be destined to have trouble. Michigan has had two awful transitions because the administration decided to play fast and loose with their coaching hires.
The sure bet was hiring Les Miles. That's what a top-tier program like Alabama or OSU would have done. But either because Bill Martin is worthless piece of crap or because Carr has some mysterious vendetta against Miles, we whiffed on that one and headed to the slot machines.
Hiring RR in 2007 was a gamble; he was a young coach from a crappy conference operating a system that required a completely different set of personel than we had. On top of that, we balked when it came to paying for the DC he was used to - that more than anything is the reason RR is no longer here.
Then Brandon decided to follow in Martin's footsteps of incompetence and went ahead with the inane decision to fire RR after the freaking bowl game (because seriously that blowout loss to the cowbells told us so much more than our blowout losses to MSU, Iowa, Penn State, Wisconsin, and OSU).
Another elite coach, Harbaugh, was well within our grasp, but we balked yet again for unclear reasons. So Brandon goes out and gets a MAC coach with a below .500 career record with only one season of double-digit wins. A guy who cares so little about offensive strategy that he doesn't see any need to wear a headset, and has bet his entire career on a journeyman OC who can apparently only run a decent offense when his entire backfield is future NFLers. And not only that, but the system the staff wants to run is another complete 180 from RR and requires an entirely different set of personel.
It doesn't need to be this way. But if you hire second-rate coaches there's a chance you'll end up with a second-rate program. Michigan didn't need to play the lotto on their last two picks for HC, but they did anyway.
I know a lot on the board will not like this opinion, but Miles was the ideal coach after Lloyd retired. He was a high profile coach that wanted to be here. He had a big name that would have sold well with recruits across the country and his teams were somewhere between spread and power teams. He had an approach on offense and defense that was far more aggressive and condusive to Championship caliber football. He was the perfect transitional coach. The Program would not have missed a beat.
No sense debating it now!
Martin, never offered Miles the job. Herbstriet was full of BS. Yes, Martin was on a sail boat but never intended to call Miles. Miles used Herbstriet BS to get a pay raise. Carr and others in the Michigan AD did not want Miles as coach.
The panic of not finding a good coach lead Martin to offer RR the job after Schiano turned him down. I thin we would have been in a great place with Schiano as coach.
Miles would have ran a cleaner program here at Michigan, no doubt about it. He would have probably turned the program around fairly quick and would have been a good to great coach for us, much like Gary Moeller.
Now we are stuck with DB good friend Brady Hoke. I really hope Brady can turn the program around but he is not an elite coach like Miles would have been. I guess getting back to 9 to 11 wins will not be bad with a few B1G championship game sprinkled would not be bad. But people expecting Hoke to win us a series of B1G titles are in for some disappointing years.
If DB was willing to spend the big bucks, JH would be our coach but I think after 5 or 6 years he would have left for the NFL but those 5 or 6 years could have been great. Instead DB went with his friend and Michigan man Brady Hoke.
At this point our best option is to go with Hoke for a couple more years and hope his good recruiting continues and he can develop the players he had already recruited. But DB will give his friend Hoke through 2015 no matter what his record. I would like to win a lot of B1G championships and NC but we do not have the coach to do this. But compared to where Michigan football has been the last 9 years, I will be happy with consistent BCS bowls and perhaps a few B1G championship games.
Harbaugh was apparently headed to SF by the time Michigan inquired. Michigan likely didn't balk at hiring him...Miles is a guy who oversigns and whose time at Oklahoma State was apparently full of NCAA violations that just weren't caught. His fitness as a leader of young men is very uncertain, to say the least...And I don't say any of this to defend Hoke.
If Brandon had fired RR after the OSU game like he should have, we would have been in the game for Harbaugh long before SF lured hm in. It's a testament to what an awful salesman Dave Brandon is that he couldn't get Harbaugh to return to his alma mater. Along with how cheap the Michigan AD is that they wouldn't shell out 1.5x whatever SF was offering to pick him up.
As for Miles, no team the guy has coached has been put under sanctions or even on probation. If you are looking for a squeaky clean, well mannered coach who can dominate NCAA football in the modern era and has no skeletons in his closet, you will probably be looking for a very, very, very long time.
It's fine to say that DB didn't try hard enough to get him. I agree based on what info became public. But that's not the same as "balking" at hiring him. That word creates the impression that Harbaugh was up for moving to AA at some point, and we don't know that to be true.
I'm sure if the price was right he would have told the 49ers that he is now the new Michigan coach, case closed.
DB was not willing to pay JH that kind of money. I'm 100 percent confident Hoke was his man from the beginning and the limited search was just a gesture. He wanted his friend and Michigan man Hoke as his coach.
Not saying Hoke will not be a good coach for us but he is definitely not an elite coach.
To win the B1G. They are at least 2 season away by judging after this past season. We will have another 7-5 or 8-4 season and Hoke will be around for 2015 where he should do much better, probably good enough to keep his job and get a contract extension. This will be just 10 wins and may not include a B1G championship!
To win the B1G. They are at least 2 season away by judging after this past season. We will have another 7-5 or 8-4 season and Hoke will be around for 2015 where he should do much better, probably good enough to keep his job and get a contract extension. This will be just 10 wins and may not include a B1G championship!
Wait a second- so coach Heck is that far up the hot seat list? I've seen people much more critical of Wellman and Mallory than Heck. Please explain.
"On the road or neutral site we look like a high school team and are constantly unprepared and look flat". That is a pretty big insult to a lot of very good high school football coaches. I actually don't think many high school teams are as bipolar as Hoke's though. I agree with you that it is a huge issue and a puzzling one at that.
he was saying that it might as well been a high school team, considering the level they play at in those situations. Not that high school teams are schitzophrenic on the road.
Oh I get what he was saying and agree with what he said. What I am getting at is that there are high school coaches out that there that do a better job of preparing their teams. It is brutal watching this team play on the road.
It's kind of a stretch to say that a team that is less successful each year for three years is headed in a positive direction, unless you're thinking it's somehow spiritually more enlightened to lose football games.
Should Hoke be fired?
Well, we all know that isn't going to happen, in fact we've been told it isn't by the individual who would make that decision, so there's little point in discussing it.
The question thus becomes whether the team's performance can be improved while Hoke remains on the job (one more year at best if things continue down the road they're currently on).
There are a few signs that the coaching staff may be beyond redemption:
1. Poor road play against decent teams has been a recurring theme for a couple of years.
2. Wildly inconsistent play, with multiple position meltdowns, has become part of the team's week-to-week personality, and it's getting worse, not better.
3. Inexplicable play calling at critical times has been an obvious problem.
4. The team is slow to make the necessary in-game adjustments, and when the team has been poised to win, it has collapsed late in games.
These are big problems, and they will not be easy to fix. I think that's what has a lot of us doubting this staff.
I still believe in Bo's concept: a coach needs five years to get in "his people." Rich Rod didn't get the five years he deserved, nor did he get the support he deserved. Hopefully, the more impatient in the fan base, donor base and administration have figured out that keeping another coach for less than five years would make it a very unattractive job to elite head coaches.
No matter what preferences any of us have, Brady Hoke deserves our support.
with you Tater. I hate the idea of 2 more years of Hoke considering how badly RR was treated and how Hoke is being treated with kid gloves but if we keep firing coaches every 3 years there is not anyone worth a damn that will ever want to coach here.
Hoke is not the answer and if it takes 2 more years for people to see that.....so be it.
This is stupid. There is nothing other than winning. Football is a points based game where there is a winner and a loser, nobody who has ever played has played to lose, but now you say there can be success without winning?......winning is the ONLY thing. Who gives a fuck about alumni and relationships and all that bullshit, I don't care how its done, just win, absolutely nothing else matters
Your view is woefully shortsighted and expresses a near complete lack of understanding of what it takes to, "just win."
Winning requires a foundation, and Michigan's foundation was cracked and crumbling. It takes time to rebuild a foundation.
I feel that one of the great ills of "modern society" is the "instant gratification" that has crept into our collective psyche. If you don't get what you want immediately, throw it away and buy a new one...repeat until you get what you want.
Sad, IMO. Greatness isn't build by continually looking for the newest and best thing.
The 2013 and 2010 seasons are near identical. One of those seasons made it justifiable to can the entire staff. Yet the former shows the staff is beyond reproach? Sorry, I just don't see it that way.
The 2010 recruiting season was the worst of my lifetime; the 2013 recruiting season has been halfway decent. If half the 2013 class ends up quitting school and/or football I'll change my tune, but I wouldn't say the state of the program is "nearly identical" in those two years.
has been made enough times on this board as it is. I'm not gonna bother going through them again. Considering doing so will likely be just as effective as the other hundred attempts. ie, not at all, from the looks of things.
As far as I can tell, the argument hinges entirely on the fact that the records in those two years were the same. You've never addressed the counterargument, so you're probably right that your next failure to do so will be similarly ineffective.
One side of the ball showing some ability at first, but struggling against competant teams
The other side of the ball showing complete ineptness against most everyone
Utter collapse down the stretch of the season
Getting trucked in the bowl game against a middle of the pack BCS conference team
Put up an embarrasing effort on, at least, one side of the ball against Ohio State and Michigan State.
Now, tell me, am I talking about this season or 2010?
You have once again failed to address the content of my post.
If you haven't recognized yet that RR's recruiting in 2009/10 and 2010/11 was a major reason he was fired, I can see why you don't understand the firing.
And you fail to realize that some of the recruiting woes at the end were because RR was fired and the commits went elsewhere.
And no matter how much, or why, the recruiting situations might be different, that doesn't stop 2013 as a season, on the field, from being a carbon copy of 2010. Keep trying to spin it, I really don't care anymore.
There were no such recruits in the 2010 class because RR wasn't fired that year. Who did we lose in 2011? What I recall from Brian's posts on the board was general relief that Hoke was able to hold the class together in the face of what were expected to be mass defections.
A lot of his 2010 recruits dropped out of football, if not out of school altogether, but what did that have to do with RR's firing?
Year 1: Nearly every player on offense and defense had seen extended playing time before the season. Still ran a spread offense.
Year 3: Gallon, Touissant, Gardner, Lewan, Schofield, Dileo and... That's it on offense. Washington, Clark, Taylor, Gordon, Morgan, and Countess on defense. First year running a pro style offense.
Year 4: the leap.
Let's hope that leap looks like something out of the Matrix.
The reason I negged and disagree with you at least partially is because you referred to the upperclassmen in 2011 as Carr players. David Brandon did the same thing and I think that is wrong and unjust. Hoke and staff get credit for 2011 but RichRod should too. Those upperclassmen were either wholly developed by RichRod (they had three years or so of his staffs's tutelage) or recruited by him.
Again this doesn't take anything away from Hoke but it is looking more and more like Hoke used RichRod's players and as he is getting more of his own things fall apart.
Now it may be true that you are right in that starting next year we should start to see the fruits of Hoke's recruiting and tutelage since the upperclassmen will be mainly his own but that is why 2013 is so great and so important.
We will know. I think Hoke should get 2015 regardless unless we go 3-9 and something disastorous like that since five classes is a just amount for any coach to get and we don't want to change the program willy nilly like a certain program that has been returning to glory.
We will know a lot next year since like you said and I am saying Hoke will have upperclass players he recruited. The caveat to all this is if somehow Hoke and Brandon think there is some surgical changes to the staff they can make to get better results. If they make moves and get some stud replacements then I personally could see giving three more years to, again, be perceived as a fair program that gives its coaches time to succeed.
If Hoke and Brandon take a look at this debacle of a season and determine that the course we are on needs no changing whatsover and we get similar results to this year next year well I'll be pissed to say the least but again five years since that is what RichRod and all coaches deserve.
Everyone needs to shut the fuck up. It's not your job to decide who coaches or plays on Saturdays, and you aren't getting paid to write about it. So do everyone who still loves Michigan unconditionally a favor and shut the fuck up. Every freaking thread is so damn gloom-and-doom that it is sickening to read. I love this blog because of the wonderful work Brian, Seth, etc. put into it to make it what is today. But a lot of people on here just fuck it up. Get a God damn life.
Go Blue! In Hoke(and the entire staff) I trust!
for the meaningful and erudite contribution. Proud we share a degree in common.
to decide who can say what on this site. So kindly take your own advice if that's gonna be your stance.
You sound like a really nice person.
I think, fwiw, that sticking things out with Hoke is Michigan's best bet. This doesn't thrill me, but I can't think of any realistic, better option...Pros for Hoke: the program, school, and alumni appear to be behind him; he's recruited well; he had a very good year in 2011; Jim Harbaugh is not likely walking through that door anytime soon; Michigan is unlikely to offer the silly money that would be required to poach an already-successful coach from an AQ program...Cons for Hoke: this season was; he's never won a conference championship at any level as a head coach; it appears that recruiting problems are starting to manifest (however slightly).
At the same time, however, Michigan offered silly money for this particular coaching staff. Didn't Dave Brandon call it "paying for value" or some such thing?
The wallet is open. The surplus is there. I think the money would be a secondary concern to whether or not Harbaugh (or any other significant, proven coach) would actually want to come here, should that need finally arise.
I was thinking of seven or eight million per year for the HC when I referred to "silly money," but maybe Michigan could swing that. I suppose I don't really know.
If you can get one of the Harbaughs, you do. They're literally one of the best coaches around and would be homeruns hires. If you can't, you give him one more year. That's exactly what should have happened last time. If you can substantially upgrade, you do it. Otherwise you become ND during the Weis years, giving the wrong guy extra time because you didn't give the guy he replaced 4-5 years
This is exactly my sentiments. If one of the Harbaugh brothers is willing to come, you go get him. If not, who else out there is better and willing to come? We need to stay the course if that's the case. But I would certainly pick up the phone and make a couple of calls to SF and Baltimore area to gauge interest.
Agree..If you can get Jim or John, you make a move without hesitation.
I can't believe he included the most disgusting thing Brandon has done in a series of hard to stomach things - that shot at our guys who played their hearts out but just happened to play under a coach Brandon doesn't like - no one should ever blithely repeat that bullcrap. I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore by the nonsense inside this program, but that low blow by Brandon about Lloyd's players really surprised me.
I don't know, and I suppose I don't much care. I just know it was a disgusting shot at a number of our players who deserved better - and it was clear that some of those players felt slighted. It was douchey, whatever the motivation.
I don't know how to buy it anymore. You've got guys on the defense who have been coached by the same staff for three years now looking completely clueless, undisciplined, playing with terrible technique.
You have a defense that, with the exception of Pipkins (and Ryan for the early part of the year), really didn't suffer many injuries and still was that befuddled by a middling Big 12 team.
You've got a line that looks just as bad as at any point in the season, if not worse - shouldn't even a young line show some type of coherence by the bowl game, after a whole season and a month of bowl practice? Of course our genius coaches didn't help with all the line juggling, but that's on them.
You had a full season of Freddie Jack not being able to develop an alternative to Fitz or sticking like glue to an inadequate Fitz.
You have players talking out of turn constantly and players coming out and saying they weren't into games as much as they should have been.
You have a senior captain acting the fool both on the field and, from what I've heard, off the field.
You have the special teams looking that dogshit in the bowl game - no discipline, terrible coverage. This is simply not a well-coached team.
You have the offensive coordinator who isn't particularly good and as an added bonus doesn't do recruiting.
You have a head coach who, please forgive me - I just don't get this bullshit with the no headset. I don't get it. I feel like I've read years worth of talk about it, but I keep coming back to the reality that I don't get why our coach isn't like all the others, why this is okay when the team looks this terrible, and why it's okay when he's supposed to be at least a great motivator, but then we read about players not being all that motivated.
I don't get it.
I just can't buy what Hoke and Brandon are selling. Sure, it was a young team, but young teams are supposed to look different by the end of the season. There's supposed to be some sense of "positive direction," to borrow the OP's phrase.
At a certain point, I don't know how you don't call bullshit on the whole thing. I want to be wrong, but I don't think I am. It's a God damn mess.
everyone is frustrated. but michigan is hardly the first team to look they didnt want to be at the "no one gives a fuck's dog shit bowl".
hoke should get 2 more years, 1 if next year is another mess. the 'not his fault' argument has too much merit to rush into firing hoke after this season. no one was calling for his head after years 1 or 2. which really speaks volumes for how bad this season was.
the effect a coach has is too speculative - some of you look pretty foolish "knowing" where to place fault. the omens and augurs are bad, but its better to give this guy a chance to redeem himself than to rush into another bad coach.
I don't like the trajectory but I understand why it happened. But at some point Hoke's first classes are going to have to start making a difference. I can't necessarily say that coaches are bad. I don't think they're great with the exception of Mattison. It really is not fair to judge Hoke and staff until 2016. However, if we keep going on into 2015 with 4 or more losses, it may be time to dump Hoke and his staff. I'm fairly confident Hoke will turn out to be a good coach for us, much like LC was.
I also thought RR should of had 5 years. Though I think some of his defensive coaching friends were actually poor coaches and they made it rough on the DC RR had hired.
Hoke inherited a program that was heading in the wrong direction. If Hoke was fired today the new coach would inherit a program that would be in a better position to win a B10 title than when he took over. That is why Hoke deserves a fourth year. If he would have recruited like RR and a new AD was hired after a poor third season then he would be fired too. You RR apologist drive me nuts. By the way he isn't doing any better at AZ with his defensive guru from WVU. LOL....like they ever played defense at WVU.
If you think that this is the right direction then I cannot explain any differently to you. 11-2/6-2, 8-5/6-2, 7-6/3-5.
Not a RR apologist either but 4-8/2-7 before he got there and 8-5/4-5, 7-5/4-5 since is not trending down.
I don't know how much can be learned from this kind of absurdly coarse-grained analysis anyway, but I don't see a trend there of any kind, up or down.
I am in support of Hoke but on one condition - I have to see some DEVELOPMENT of talent by these coaches. It hurts to see us going from 11 wins to 8 to 7, but next year has to be the year that these coaches show they can take THEIR 4-5 star talent and make them BETTER - no more excuses.
Hoke had better show me some player development across the board next year, otherwise I don't see much reason to hang onto him past next year. Sure, the man can recruit, and that's cool, but I'd take coach who can develop over a guy who can recruit any day.
Hoke, you've made your bed by electing to keep your staff intact. For better or worse, you're sleeping in it. I'm tired of watching teams like Iowa and Nebraska consistently out-coach us week after week. I can't believe I just said Nebraska out-coaches us. But, sadly, they do right now.
Akron out-coached us. This staff has no idea how to gameplan effectively. They seem stuck in the mentality that Michigan can just line up and physically beat teams with superior talent. Unfortunately, we haven't been that team for many years, and I wish the coaches could display some acumen for pregame scheming and in-game adjustments. I don't see that at all.
I'm late to the party, but I don't see any reason to let Hoke go for at least one more season. Not to say he shouldn't look at his staff and shake things up if he feels there are better options, but RR's team was just starting to come together when he was let go, and we are starting to see the effects now. People forget that a big reason teams likes MSU are successful now is that they finally have stability at the top. If you look at their history, you see their most successful coaches were given time to implement their systems and create a culture around the program. UM had that for many years with Bo, Moeller (to an extent), and Carr. Even when things didn't go well (with Moeller), the team chugged along because recruiting went well, the alumni supported the staff, and the AD's office kept everything hush-hush.
The problems RR introduced both were his own doing as well as symptomatic of issues with the program. It had become both entitled and complacent, and so a guy who comes in and didn't win immediately because he had a different plan was solidly in the bullseye of fans, alumni, media, etc. that had come to expect a certainly level of solid-if-unspectacular seasons. So those first couple of years were marked with bad losses and complaints from inside and outside the program, but then when it finally looked like he might be figuring it out and bringing in the type of players he needs, the AD switches it up and Hoke is brought in. It needed to happen, I guess, but that's mostly because fans are fickle and Brandon didn't have the capital/desire/stones to give the current guy another year to really run with his players. So Hoke steps in, does a couple of cosmetic improvements on offense and gets a solid if opportunistic performance by the defense, and gets 11 wins that probabyl should go to RR. But this is year 3 for Hoke, and next year we'll start to see "his" recruits mature into leaders on the team.
That will help with creating a sense of consistency and failiarity in the program again, and as long as they don't crater I'm fine keeping him around for 1-2 more years to see what happens. The era of teams just being "dominant" for decades is over, and UM was probably the last holdout because of the bowl streak. There will be ups and downs, but the best teams usually pick a direction and follow through until such time it is obvious they went th wrong way. Hoke doesn't feel like that to me, and so he needs more time.
This "party" started 3 months ago and it will continue until Hoke wins the B1G or leaves. Even then, the party will just morph into a debate about even better coaching options.
In one corner are the RR supporters who think a Hoke firing would somehow validate the injustice of RR's firing.
In another corner are the Hoke supporters who think the program is headed in the right direction with lots of talented underclassmen and a staff that needs a little tweaking.
In another corner are the "I don't really know football but coaches are paid top $ to immediately produce or get fired" crowd.
In the middle are a whole bunch of folks trying to decide if Hoke's ceiling is high enough and whether the mix of youth, weak upperclassmen depth, coaching errors, locker room friction, and missed opportunities reflect coaching or a temporary confluence of culture changes.
Lol, Lloyd Carr players. I bet mike martin didn't talk to Lloyd once on campus c....untill 2011, that is.
Hoke's success here has been on the shoulders of one man: denard Xavier Robinson. 17-4 with him, but since he was unavailable fully to be his QB and best player he is 10-9. And look at the wins: shaky ones vs Akron, UConn, cmu, two vs minny, two miracle, lucky as shit wins vs NW, IU.
Can't win games in a crappy B10, can't really beat anyone good.
11 of 17 games away from home, the team has fallen into a double digit hole. They look like they don't practice before road games.
His saving grace is 51 of 52 of his recruits are still on campus. Another's strong class is coming in. I am willing to let him coach these kids through as attrition was the programs biggest issue, even before RR. I am open to the possibility that Peppers can be the new Denard meal ticket for this staff.
But ask me again when we are down 17-3 at half in south bend--remember his O has shown no real ability to score TDs in road rivalry games--and I might sing a different tune.
But it's looking more and more like Hoke is like the 8th best coach out of 12 in this conference. Woof.
The play on the field, the losses piling up, not being in the public eye when it comes to championships, the lack of player development, no those things don't matter much to players.
But what we say on mgoblog - this is the key. If we just kept if positive, man would this team be awesome.
I would say that the coaching is the biggest issue here, and the lack of development in the players is startling. But for all I know, the coaches are squeezing absolutely every ounce of talent out of these players and it just isn't enough. There's really no telling.
...stripping away emotion, I'd have to say Hoke has reached his ceiling. He isn't the most articulate coach and I have to question his ability to inspire and lead. I think he has displayed a tendency to defer to position coaches a bit too much -- especially during the games.
The win-loss trend line isn't positive, either. This will detrimentally affect recruiting (and already has).
I'm thinking one more season, then...
Sorry, I don't buy it. If Gus Malzahn can take over a program that went 3-9 with zero conference wins and get them to the NCG in his first year, then there's no reason we should be making so many excuses for Hoke.
I don't think Hoke should be fired now, but next year is definitely make-or-break for him. I'm looking for a B1G title or bust, with wins over at least one of MSU and OSU. I no longer give a shit that the schedule is difficult. Hoke needs to find a way to get it done.
Malzahn is also coaching a team of players that he recruited when he was there before. Also that football program is loaded from the recruiting classes they had during Auburns NC run.
I don't think anyone believes Michigan should have been playing in the NCG this year, but some amount of improvement over last season wouldn't have been too much to expect. Instead, Michigan regressed even more than its record indicated. Last year, Michigan lost to the #1, #3, #4, #8, and #25 teams in the country, all on the road. This year, Michigan struggled to beat two of the worst teams in college football, rushed for negative yardage against a team that allowed Wyoming to rush for 200+, and was consistently manhandled in the trenches. That's not what a well-coached football team does.
Auburn's interior O-line is just as young and inexperienced as Michigan's, yet they found a way gameplan around their weaknesses. They also improved every week. That's what a well-coached football team does.
I completely agree with this. I understand a young team isn't ideal, but as I've said in previous posts, people around here act like its 1970 and Freshman can't play. The youth excuse is exactly what it is, just another excuse as to why UM isn't winning more games.
1. Yes - Malzahn completely resurrected the O to his previous standard at Auburn in one year. The talent was recruited for his spread scheme and Chizik was insane to move towards pro/I-style. Malzahn is an offensive master, no doubt. By the same standards, GMatt immediately fixed the UM train wreck on D. [I think Malzahn is a better OC than GMatt is a DC, FWIW.]
2. No - Auburn jumping to 12-1 isn't proof of any UM issue. Hoke went 11-2 in year 1 with a lot of good luck just like Auburn's path. Saban went 7-6 in year 1 - does that mean he couldn't cure Bama's issues? All situations are different and outcomes point to different approaches as much as different competencies. I'm not sure the 11-2 or 7-6 season is more indicative of his coaching.
Hoke just has to win more next year and produce quality football (not -49 yards rushing or frosh QBs driving the field in the last min or other calamities).
We're talking year three. Saban, Meyer, etc all achieved much more success in the first three years at their programs (Meyer and Saban have done it twice).
The problem with Hoke is that he gas little track record of success. He's never won a conference championship and his beat career road win is 8-4 Navy (or maybe Air Force). His first season at UM he had the easiest schedule possibly ever and lost 2 games. He didn't get criticized because it was year 1.
He's exactly what we worried he was: a .500 coach who will never outscheme anyone. For all the talk of his recruiting, he's been beaten by Meyer both years. Hopefully O'Brien leaves PSU.
I'm not sure the 11-2 or 7-6 season is more indicative of his coaching.
That's exactly the issue here. I give Hoke credit for 2011 because he turned around the defense in a way that Rich Rod wouldn't have been capable of doing while maintaining the productivity level of Rich Rod's offense. But the regression is what bothers me. Everything was set up nicely for a B1G title run this year with a favorable schedule and a QB that was a better fit for Borges' preferred offense. Yet Michigan went out and shit the bed, and showed zero improvement week over week (with the exception of the Ohio State game).
If you don't like the Malzahn example, here's one closer to home: in 2011, Michigan State started its B1G season with a patchwork offensive line after a nightmarish string of misfortunes sidelined starters and promising backups. MSU sports writers had hit the panic button. The result? 11 wins, a berth in the conference championship game, and a bowl victory over an SEC team. Good coaches find ways to overcome their personnel issues and win.
If you include 5 classes (to account for redshirt seniors):
Malzahn has been with his players 4 years; Hoke 3 years
Auburn's recruiting classes ranked (per Rivals) on average: 10 (range 4-19); Michigan's averaged 12 (range 5--21)
factually, "loaded" recruiting classes at Auburn were only marginally better than Michigan's
But, of course, you will argue that RichRod's classes were over-ranked and not balanced---because it is always RichRod's fault--and it fits your meme.
Honestly at this point if I'm predicting, I don't think he's the answer, I think he could be a stop-gap kind of coach, we may look back at his tenure and speak highly of him because he rebuilt the program but just couldn't coach them up effectively. That being said, it seems as if Bo and to a more extent, Lloyd had years here and there where the fans may have lost faith in them and concluded it was time for a change. With Bo and Lloyd though, the following season typically included some big wins or a B1G title which quieted down the noise and vindicated their coaching capacity. Right now hoke is hanging around because it's still early, the BCS Bowl win probably will ultimately give him an extra year, also he is still recruiting at a high level. However, within the next year or so, he is going to have to win a B1G title or at least have one or two of those Carr/Bo turn-around years. Like I said, right now I don't think he is capable, I think his ceiling is 7-9 wins, he seems disconnected with the offense and really the entire product and I think the kids are beginning to notice that, we'll see if this really becomes noticeable, Frank Clark and Ross's statements were a little odd the other day and something worth paying attention to moving forward.
Right now the two weakest areas, IMO, are the O and D lines. Until those two areas become strengths, this cannot be a great team.
I am and have been in support of Hoke throughout this bad season but 2014 has to be a year that shows improvement and trending in the right direction.
I've really lost confidence in Hoke. Does anyone really think we're going to be better next year? I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see it. I seem to remember reading the interview with the OSU blogger who basically said that if Borges was at OSU he would have been canned immediately after the season if not earlier. Hoke's support for an OC who has brought us so low is inexplicable. I am definitely not optimistic.
I really do think Michigan will be better next year . Unless you consider Hoke's first two seasons as Michigan HC flukes, I see no reason not to expect the team to be better next year.
I really do think Michigan will be better next year. Unless you consider Hoke's first two seasons as flukes, I see no reason not to expect the team to be better next year.
Very disappointing to note the numerous issues on D.
1. Horrible technique by the CBs. Taylor is lost on multiple plays; even with safety help he simplify vacates key spaces and whiffs on WR bumps. Badly beat twice on short/intermediate routes. Taylor was beat twice - inside and outside - by Lockett on the first TD.
2. Lack of quickness. Beyer, Clark and Morgan lose contain and Waters just runs away from them with ease.
3. DL cannot separate. Rush lanes and pass protection largely a result of DL engaging OL and never separating. Not rooted out or combo'd, just inability to beat a blocker.
4. LB sloppiness. Filled the wrong lanes and lost in coverage. Even Ryan looked unsettled and tentative.
Ultimately, the athleticism or S&C are marginal and simply magnify the execution issues. Front 4 cannot control the line and the back 7 cannot play well in space.
I'm one of those who's in Hoke's Corner. I really want him to get two more years minimum, and feel the same way about most of his staff.
This year has been very painful, but I continue to believe the team is heading in the right direction.
I have a lot more confidence in the recruiting, the state of the physical facilities, and most of the coaching staff.
Ideally, the whole staff stays, with the caveat that obviously, DB & Hoke would see some things internally that I don't have a clue about. Perhaps a few of the position coaches change, but not most of them.
But I don't see anything here except hope. You want the whole staff to stay intact? Ideally? Based on what? What did you see in the past two years that gives you any confidence or belief in Hoke or this staff?
Maybe you've covered this in many other posts and don't feel the necessity to repeat yourself. I'm just saying that looking at what you posted here, I don't see a lot to go on. I have lost a lot of confidence. The staff, just based on appearances, looks befuddled on gameday. And the team, based on what is evident to the naked eye, looks like crap. Linemen still don't know who to block, the running back system was mystifying all season long, young, highly touted guys (with the exception of Butt) don't seem to get integrated into the system and are we get almost no instant contributors (while other programs seem to have multiple first year players that can somehow perform competently on the field), the defense looks confused and out of position and regularly displays terrible technique.
I get that the team is young, but shouldn't a young team at least have shown some signs of getting it by season's end? Looking at the offense, the Ohio State game seems to be an aberration against a defense with a profoundly lousy secondary.
I just want to understand why this adds up to your belief that we are heading in the right direction.
Although this isn't Thanksgiving season, one of the things I am thankful for is mgoblog, and the mgoblog community. It and they feed the addiction that is Michigan football.
That said, the issue isn't whether Richrod should have been given another year, or whether Brady shoudl be canned. Brady should be indeed given another year for a multitude of reasons that others have stated ad nauseum. What the concern should be, is ARE WE GETTING BETTER? Anyone that answers yes to that question is delusional. The concern is that Brady will suffer the same affliction that plagued a predecessor, namely Carr-itis. Carr-itis is manifested by hiring assistant coaches who aren't up to the task of producing top shelf teams. And hanging onto them like grim death in the face of mountaints of evidence they should be replaced. Face it folks. Its ALL about coaching, and while coaching includes many components, not the least of which is recruiting, even a casual observer needs to wonder if Brady and crew are up to the task after this past season. ManBall? Please! Running game=Sucks. Special teams, other than a run by Gibbons=Sucks. Ability of defense when it NEEDS to make a stop=Sucks.
This year the excuses were inexperienced offensive line. Candidate for next year's excuses.............Inexperienced Off Tackles.......if Shane is QB, inexperienced QB, inexperienced wide receivers.........inexperienced DLine.........and God forbid the injury bug bites us hard. Of course, there is the old reliable 'Execution'.
I've said it before. If the assistant coaches were working in the private sector, heads would be rolling. Instead, its bunker mentality and business as usual. That can be tolerated one more year, and then some hard decisions will have to be made, and at a minimum, a least a few heads have to roll.
I think everyone, myself in particular, is going to benefit from some time off from Michigan football. It's been an exceedingly frustrating season that I am happy to see past into history.
That being said, however, I urge all my fellow Michigan Men and Women to try to take a look back at where Michigan football was just a few years ago, understand that transitions are difficult, and try to realize that maybe, just maybe, the distance that Michigan had to "make up" was more significant than what the fanbase believed.
I say this because I believe with every ounce of my Maize and Blue soul that Michigan's football program was an absolute SHELL of it's former even BEFORE the RR years. Although RR did some good things -- Denard, DG, Ryan, Lewan, etc. -- his tenure didn't advance the program much, and with regards to OL recruiting in particular, probably set it back rather significantly. If we thought that the hole was only 20 ft. deep when we starting trying to climb out of it, but then realized that it was 200 ft. deep, we're bound to be frustrated.
I know many of you don't believe that the hole is 200 ft. deep, that Hoke & Co. are in over their collective heads, and that Michigan will never "come back" with them at the helm. Although nobody can say for certain what will happen, I think the long-term success of the program DEMANDS stability at this point, even if it does turn out that Hoke & Co. are not the guys to lead us back completely. Coaching changes are very traumatic, and although I don't have the stats to back this up, my hunch is that coaching changes are just as likely to produce failure as they are success.
Just chill, let things shake out. I believe in coach Hoke, and I believe that 2013 was ALWAYS going to be the trough in which the personnel issues festering behind the scenes (i.e., the recruiting cycle) came to a head and bit Michigan in the ass. It WILL get better my friends. These young kids won't be young next year and going forward. CFB is repleat with examples of teams that make HUGE leaps from year to year. Give the coaches an opportunity to do what they know how to do. Save yourselves the heartache and just be patient and observe. If they don't work out, so be it, but at least they'll be passing on a "normal" roster, not one with a 25 scholarship deficit to the next coaching staff.
Happy New Year, and as always, GO BLUE!
That was a very well formulated and thoughtful post on a subject that is, too frankly in my opinion, driven by knee jerk reactions. I think we can all agree that the season faded fast for Hoke this year, ala every year for Rich Rod. At least we are now recruiting better. Florida State's line was FR last year - this year a BCS champ birth. Sparty's offense was terrible last year with a young line and WRs - this year a Rose Bowl with a senior and junior laden offensive line coupled with experienced receivers. Sometimes it clicks as guys get older. Just a fact of nature.
"Three years and a positive direction"?
I do not think that means what you think it means.
All Brady Hoke has proven in three years at Michigan is that he can win with Rich Rodriguez's recruits...and get all the credit for doing so from the AD.
The only difference that matters between RichRod's third year and Hoke's third year is that at 7-6, RichRod's teams were showing improvement (albeit slower than most of us would have hoped), while at 7-6 Hoke's teams are the epitome of diminishing returns...the more Hoke has to rely on "his" players, the worse the results are on the field. The Bill Parcells adage "You are what your record says you are" is the ultimate evidence of exactly what we are.
I support the University of Michigan and all the institution represents. It hasn't represented mediocrity in the athletic field (certainly not on the football field) since I was in diapers, but that it what it has been allowed to become, and I really don't see Coach Hoke as being The One to reverse that trend. I don't deny that he's a nice guy who loves Michigan. Hell, I'M a nice guy who loves Michigan, but I don't see that as being the ultimate qualifier as to why I should be its head football coach anymore than it was with Hoke.
Brian was correct in his original assessment; Hoke was a crony hire with ties to the program from its "glory days" of the Lllloyd Carr era that the AD knew could be had for less than market rates. He may have been, in the correct era, a good hire. His integrity is unquestioned, his loyalty second to none, and his ability to attract first tier talent are all qualities that were admired in Carr. But Hoke isn't a 21st Century coach any more than Carr was, and we're paying the price for that.
I agree with the previous user post saying that we're in danger of becoming Notre Dame if we fall into the trap of keeping the wrong coach for too long in order to make up for firing the previous coach too soon...that is all that firing Hoke at this point would accomplish, so in that regard I suppose you could say that I "support" him...but unless we show a quantum leap in 2014 from what we've seen trending from the second half of the Ohio State game in 2012 to now, I have to hope that AD Brandin' has learned from his mistakes and has a plan to hire "the best coach" and not "the coach who loves Michigan the most". Because we won't need to see what Hoke can offer for a fifth year if his fourth year results in a record within a game of this year's...a game better is 2012, and a game worse means that we couldn't take advantage of a schedule that most of the MGoFaithful on this board perceive as being equal to or weaker than what was played in 2013.
Bottom line...if three years of steady improvement resulting from the complete rebuilding of the program was sufficient to let one coach go, four years of decreasing results leading to stagnation should be sufficient to let another one go. And I really hope the mistakes made from 2008 to now are not repeated...the older I get, the less I have emotionally invested in sports of any kind, but it's sure a helluva lot nicer knowing that Saturday afternoons can be looked forward to with expectations that can be realized rather than wishes we know damn well aren't anywhere closer to being fulfilled than they were since App. State in 2007.
I respect what you've written above. However, I think it should be pointed out that "improvement" is relative and has a significant age bias. Meaning, the improvement that young players show doesn't translate to on-field performance as dramatically as older players, yet that doesn't mean they're not improving. That is the issue with having a very young team, which Michigan most certainly does. Typically, huge jumps are made between a player's first year starting (or getting significant playing time) and their second year doing so. We had a lot of very young and inexperienced guys playing this year. It's stands to reason that 2014 will see significant jumps from players all over the field.
This meme of, "RR's teams were improving" I think is revisionist history. Similarly, the idea that Hoke's teams are regressing is spurious as well. The overall record is one measure, and perhaps the only measure that matters, but there are so many other factors to look at. The problem with RR, as I said above, is that although he did some good things, he made some very important things WORSE. I agree that we've not seen as much improvement as we'd all like in some areas, but I don't think there is any area where things have gotten WORSE. Sure, point at the OL, but that is 100% expected and related to the recruiting cycle that broken down under RR.
Improvement will come.
given the near complete absence of recruiting across the O-line and the complete lack of focus on the defensive side of the ball.... Whether RR was given appropriate support has been debated a little bit around here, but it really doesn't matter. He wasn't taking us where we want to go, then Groban happened and the deal was sealed as it were.
Hoke's teams will be good. The O-line will eventually form holes through which good backs will run and will protect Gardner or Morris or Speight. They will throw good balls to Darboh or Harris or Funchess or Butt. The defense, led by juniors and seniors across the front 7 will apply pressure to quarterbacks sans blitzing. The lineman will command double teams allowing LBs to run unimpeded to ball carriers. We will then be able to stop offenses when games are on the line.
We had a shitty year after high hopes following the ND game. Other good coaches have had shitty years. Now is the time for patience and to appreciate that the season is over..
If I want the ridiculous expectation of winning all games by 50 points, going undefeated and signing a top 5 class yearly I'll play NCAA 14 and well I have been. It's fun. I agree this isn't what we're happy with but I think we all should have expected massive OL issues. OMG we went 11-2 so lets think the fact we have no elite linemen on either side of the ball, or experienced game ready, upper classman players doesn't matter. Wait, it still does.
Oh, thank God...if only the OP had said that in the original post. Because there's really no indication that this will be the case based on the body of evidence on hand so far. It's "the X's and O's", not "the Jimmys and Joes" that concern me based on what we've seen at this point.
"...there's really no indication that this [improvement] will be the case based on the body of evidence on hand so far."
This is the #1 spurious argument presented in here, and it is presented by people who have the LEAST capacity to make such an assessment. So much of what goes on in the improvement in players goes totally unseen by fans. HUGE leaps happen every year, but when you ask the coaches who facilitate those leaps they almost always say their not surprised, that they saw it coming on, it was just a matter of time before it showed up in games.
He gets 1 more year to prove something, anything, whatever but then he is gone if we lose 4 games.
Glad you're not making the decisions.
I agree, that was a dumb comment by me..I am just pissed at all this like we all are, but you have to agree dont you?
I feel like its 9-3 or better to keep his job, no?
I understand the frustration of 2013, but fans just get too caught up in having to win x number of games, have to beat certain teams, etc. But I think it is fair to expect us to start trending up again.
Gorgeous Al selected the 2 pt conversion play deployed successfully in the KSU game instead of the doomed quick slant to Dileo in the OSU game?
It was set up. It would have taken the ball off of Gardner's broken toe, it would have provided more than one option, and it was set up perfectly. Except we decided to run a precision route with pro qb timing required inside the five. Oomph. I would feel much different about the staff had this happened.
It was his last "Hahah, FU fans, I'll still be around next year and you'll forget how badly we were owned a few years from now when you look at the score" moment for 2013. He's got a few more lined for 2014, stay tuned!
Im not a Hoke fan, never have been. I believe he has one final year to prove himself (not much faith in that though) and if we have another year with 7 or less wins then the door needs to hit him in the ass all the way back to the west coast.
I find humor in the fact that Rich Rod had 7 wins in his third year and was fired. RR had maybe the worst team in Michigan history his first year...Nick Sheridan was our starting quarterback for Gods sakes. Anyway, lets just right the ship already.
It's maybe worth remembering that Nick Sheridan was the starter by choice, not because he was the only option available. RR chose the walk-on over a four-star because he felt the walk-on had a better understanding of the offense he wanted to implement. (There was also the option of trying to retain an experienced five-star at the position, but there were issues there we don't need to rehash and it's quite possible that wouldn't have been a viable option under any circumstances.)
I'm not necessarily saying that was the wrong choice, but it was a transition cost more than it was a direct sign of lack of available talent. Without the change in offensive philosophy, Sheridan would never have been considered an option as a starter.
D. Brandon not mesh well with RRod? I thought that played a big part in his departure.
As I recall the main criteria used in firing RR was that he wasn't winning enough against our rivals. With that in mind Hoke is not doing much better.
Against Notre Dame, MSU and OSU:
Fact is RR had a shorter leash due to not being DB's hire, NCAA penalties and divided support. Hoke does not have the first 2 going against him and for the most part has support of the fan base and full support of the AD. All that being the case he does deserve more time to show what he can do.
For the good of the program I don't think it's a good idea to fire Hoke (of course) or Borges. Being a premier program they cannot afford to look like they fire coaches quickly or it will lead to uneasiness with recruits and a reputation for changing coaches quickly will develop. We want to be known as a place where recruits can come and expect to play most of or all of their college career under the same coach, it's program stability.
IMO, give Borges another year and Hoke another 2 years. If any changes can be made this year let it be with position coaches. I'd also be hesitant to fire Funk as stability for that position group is needed as well. If he truly is a bad coach then yes let him go. If not give him another year as well to see if these young guys can progress.
The difference being RichRod inherited a solid program, decimated it, and now Hoke is rebuilding it.
I agree with you that Hoke deserves one more year, but thats it! What I worry about is the fact that this offense is full of weapons but needs the Oline to hold up to be able to execute. The key to next season is if Hoke's recruits, who are getting older, start filly the roles we need. I, like most people, loved the coaching staff after the first season, but the thing that troubles me is that at times it seemed like Hoke and his staff lost control of the team this season. Like in the Iowa game when they didnt show up for the second half, or how the defense just folded like a cheap tent against OSU, Penn state, and Kstate.