1. What is Shawn Crable hadn't delivered a late hit to Troy Smith?
2. What if Mich players weren't paid by a booster and Steve Fisher kept his job?
3. What if Antonio Bass' knee hadn't exploded?
1. What is Shawn Crable hadn't delivered a late hit to Troy Smith?
2. What if Mich players weren't paid by a booster and Steve Fisher kept his job?
3. What if Antonio Bass' knee hadn't exploded?
1) Drew Henson
2) Drew Henson
3) Drew Henson
He was the OSU alum/fan that offered the star michigan QB a load of money to play minor league baseball just so OSU wouldn't have to face him for 2 more years.
Nice top 3 ZRL mine would be the same. Still a shame about Bass. I am from Jackson and the entire community was so proud and excited for him. His younger brother is rumored to be leaving Lumen Christi Catholic and attending Jackson High next year. I have seen him play a couple times, not quite Antonio but only a sophomore. Will be interesting to see how he develops.
My Dad keeps me informed on Bass's younger brother, it would be cool if he plays for the public HS they could use a player like him.
Replace Bass's knee with "What if Gary Moeller hadn't gotten drunk/resigned too fast" to the list. He probably would have almost as legendary as Bo, as he would have possibly won multiple MNCs, heading into the BCS era.
by Michigan people. Bo wasn't there at the time but found out about the public drunkness and rushed back to Ann Arbor. Bo was furious that Michigan forced Moeller to resign.
Moeller is a better coach than Lloyd Carr. He was an aggressive coach who is not afraid to take chance and is an outstanding recruiter. IMO, Moeller would have lead Michigan into greater height than Lloyd Carr.
Hypothetical Moeller vs. Carr, right? No one can say definitely who the better coach would have been.
that Moeller would have led Michigan as a national power. He was innovative, aggressive and can really go for a kill shot. In other words, he's the kind of coach that Michigan fans wanted.
*technically* nobody can say that for sure. But given Carr's offensive genius was run the back into the line on 1st and 2nd down, screen pass to the TE on the 3rd, punt on fourth and hope the defensive can save your ass, I don't think it's too much of a stretch of deductive reasoning that Moeller would have been the better coach.
Why is this guy getting negged? The box score doesn't lie:
They had a +3 turnover margin (as noted) and they never led after OSU tied the game in the 1st quarter.
During the RichRod debacle the Lloyd Loyalists turned that into "One play from the national championship!!!" Never mind that Michigan still would have had to score. Never mind that the Gators might have whupped the Wolverines. (I do think Michigan had the horses to make that a competitive game.)
Similarly, Lloyd's last game turned into "We beat the national champs!!!" Well, no, not really -- UMich beat a team that had several significant stumbles during the season, including two losses at home.
The "What if Mich players weren't paid by a booster and Steve Fisher kept his job" hypothetical
I would rephrase it thusly: "What if Maurice Taylor's rollover accident (which eventually caused Ed Martin's payouts to become public knowledge) hadn't happened?"
College basketball is dirty as anything. The scandals that actually see the light of day are just the tip of the iceberg. If not for a car accident, we most likely would have never heard a peep about Ed Martin, Fisher would still be here, and Chris Webber would still be hailed as one of our greatest players ever.
As it was, a lot of pain could have been avoided had we not turned over the program to Brian Ellerbe, a man who had just been fired by Loyola of Maryland and was hired as Fisher's #3 assistant.
I think the Ed Martin scandal would have come to light regardless of whether or not there was an accident on that recruiting weekend. He was running a pretty big gambling ring in Detroit, and the feds found out about it. Unless I'm misremembering, the car accident did not prompt the federal investigation into the gambling. The truth about Webber, et al. being paid came out because the feds had the subpoena power to get information about Martin's bank records. And because he wanted to cooperate with the investigation to mitigate his criminal penalties.
they made it to the final 8, losing to eventual champion Arkansas.
So they had 3 straight tournaments where their only loss was to the team that won it.
Before 1997, the Elite Eight was actually known as the "Final Eight".
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
On the point more, I don't hold any grudge against Steve Fisher for those events. He probably was vaugely aware that something was going on, but when you're having that much success, it must be pretty easy to pretend you didn't notice anything. I can't say for sure I wouldn't do the same thing.
Fisher was more than vaguely aware something was going on while he was forging Perry Watson's initials on ticket passes for Ed Martin.
Cuz if thats true, WOW!
Here's the relevant part.
Fisher told investigators with the Bond, Schoeneck & King law firm he was responsible for only a few of the 32 complimentary tickets Martin received during a three-year period. But investigators found that Fisher made out 16 of the passes, and that his secretary or other clerical workers made out 10.
Six other complimentary tickets bore the initials of former assistant Perry Watson, who has denied leaving tickets for Martin. A handwriting analysis showed at least five of the six sets of "PW" initials had been written by Fisher, the report said.
coined by Dick Vitale like the Sweet Sixteen, Diaper Dandy, etc.
Regarding Fisher, I think that there was a continuation of things that were going on under Frieder. I suspect that Fisher had suspicions, but decided that not knowing was the best course of action. And that was the end of him and, for the most part in the 1990's, the program.
Fisher had a different set of connections than Frieder. Fisher was the one who developed the Perry Watson connection and probably had more connections to Ed Martin than Frieder did. Among the elite players on Frieder's teams, I can think of only two, Roy Tarpley and Antoine Joubert, who were from Detroit.
Frieder got his players from around the region and the country: Gary Grant was from Ohio; Ed Wade was from Boston; so was Rumeal Robinson; Glen Rice was from Flint; Eric Riley was from Ohio.
With a couple of exceptions, Fisher got his talent from Detroit. I don't think he was strictly following Frieder's footsteps in that respect.
Actually Martin started attending games in the early/mid 80's can't remember which recruit for sure but it was a Detroit Southwestern guy (meaning Perry Watson connection). Frieder let him in the program. This is from memory but the Michigan Daily has an article you can look up from 2003 to confirm this.
the steve fisher rehab project is disgusting
...can burn in hell. his see-no-evil attitude (learned, it could be asserted, at the knee of bill frieder) cost us...what? ten years of shit? i was in grad school in ann arbor when the fab five were around, living in the same complex as webber - and all you had to do was open your eyes to see what was going on. fisher chose not to.
can he coach? sure. can he recruit, even without booster help? obviously. i'll never forgive him for letting ed martin run wild, though. ever.
I agree that Fisher's failures set the MMB team back years, but I also was in school during the Fab Five era and, selfishly, I enjoyed ever minute of it. Sleeping out all night for the Duke game, watching Juwan dancing on the scorer's table, etc, etc. Selfishly, I wouldn't trade those experiences during my college years for anything, even years of mediocrity after the violations became known. I feel sorry to those that have suffered through the 2000s, but it was lots of fun while it lasted!
...it was fun at the time. flooding state street after we beat kentucky in the final four is one of my favorite memories from those years (that, and The Catch against notre dame). i'd be lying if i said it didn't...um...worry me, too.
I don't even think it's accurate to say that Fisher set the program back in the long run. Many programs have overcome serious NCAA scandals in short order (look no further than OSU after Jim O'Brien). Our problem was that we hired a grossly incompetent man to replace Fisher.
I agree hiring a grossly incompetent man was a big part of the problem, but all of the actions of the administration at the time were a problem. Michigan needed to stand up and say you want to investigate Ed Martin, fine we've done all we can to come clean, but when it comes to using the Feds to get info on recruits it needs to be ALL recruits. Martin was paying a lot of Detroit kids money and they didn't all end up at U of M. I'm thinking the NCAA might have opted to cut the investigation rather than have the complete truth of how dirty college basketball is come out, with a bunch of schools going down at the same time.
USC is a bad example. With their weather, population to recruit from, willingness to continue breaking rules, etc
UofM was given a death sentence when they were forced to hire Ellerbe. No one else would coach here with sanctions hanging. Combine that with MSUs rise to #1 and we were basically shut off from a thin in state pool of recruits
During the process, and even today UM puts itself at a disadvantage by being squeaky clean in the dirtiest sport
like Dominic Ingerson(though he was a big headcase), Jamal Crawford, Josh Moore(though he was lazy), Bernard Robinson Jr. Avery Queen and to name a few.
He kept recruiting lazy players or low charactered players. Throw in the fact that he's not a good coach, you have a disaster.
The effects are still felt today. JB is probably a little over halfway of finally digging Michigan out of the gigantic sinkhole of the Ed Martin scandal. Here are my reasons:
1. Tom Izzo took advantage of the scandal to "lock" instate recruiting. Though the population shift has decreased the numbers, back then a person could recruit enough players from Detroit and Flint to win the NCAA Championship.
2. As Izzo and MSU rose, Michigan floundered badly, thus losing at least eighty percent of their credibility as a program to most recruits.
3. Ellerbe was a crappy hire. Amaker was a great hire as far as erasing the stigma, but he was never as good of a leader on the bench as he was on the floor. And neither could break Izzo's grip on instate recruiting.
4. As interest in the program waned, the administration took a "who cares" approach to grossly inferior facilities, thus making it even more difficult for Michigan to recruit.
And none of this would have happened without the Ed Martin scandal. So, yes, the effects ARE still felt today. That is why I hope Tom Izzo really did, as I felt then and do now, piss away his mojo when he talked to the Cavs.
If there is one great lesson we can take from the Ed Martin scandal, it's that the balance of basketball power in the state can change very quickly. JB is starting to recruit just well enough that MSU doesn't automatically get every instate player they offer anymore. That is effecting MSU's product and forcing Izzo to work a lot harder than he used to. It is also changing the perception of today's and tomorrow's recruits.
Tom Izzo was able to take a "quantum leap" because of the Ed Martin scandal. Michigan can just as easily take one in the next year or two.
And maybe if Izzo doesn't look like he owns the state quite as much the press will finally look into the shady stuff he's done that's been ignored. I'm not holding my breath but it would be great if Sparty problems weren't just swept under the rug.
Given the piss-poor coaching job Fisher did with those Maceo Baston-Louis Bullock-Robert Traylor teams in the mid-90s, I tend to think that Fisher's earlier success with the Fab Five was a result of that team's incomparable talent, and not any coaching greatness on his part.
Yeah, but he's 27-1 with SAN DIEGO STATE. Say what you want about Fisher, but the dude can coach.
Fisher is a good coach. It's not like coaching is a roulette wheel and you can just expect to stumble upon a team that wins 90% of its game one season. The man won a national title as a in interim coach, then returned to the national title game two of the next four seasons. And at SDSU he's led them to six consecutive 20-win seasons. Look at his record:
I think Fisher's low-key personality gives people the wrong impression about him. If he were a raving lunatic on the sidelines like a lot of coaches, people would be giving him more praise.
Are you suggesting he just "lucked" into a 64% winning percentage over 10 years at SDSU? That is a lot of getting lucky with special players.
And what lead you to the conclusion that these over-hyped recruits were so great? Their fabulous pro careers?
Overhyped? Seriously? One of them was the national player of the year as a soph, first overall pick, multi All Star and fringe HOFer, 2 others had very long NBA careers, and it's not like Ray J and King were scrubs - they were very solid 4 year starters on a major college team.
Take out Ray and Jimmy from the equation - if you took 3 current NBAers comparable to Webber, Jalen and Juwan and they were on the same college team, I promise that team went to multiple final fours.
I think the Monkey-avatar guy was trying to say that Baston-Bullock-Traylor were overhyped therefore defending Steve Fisher.
You have it. Look at the two classes that made up the bulk of those teams:
* Maurice Taylor (lived up to expectations, had a decent pro career)
* Maceo Baston (pretty much the same, has had a few cups of coffee in the NBA)
* Jerod Ward (injured, so ... incomplete, I guess, although I think he was overrated)
* Willie Mitchell (a bust, pretty much)
* Travis Conlan (great role player, Michigan Man, and all that)
* Robert Traylor (lived up to expectations, didn't cut it in the NBA for multiple reasons)
* Albert White (Michigan's Kelvin Torbert ... man among boys in HS)
* Louis Bullock (made a @#$%load of three-pointers, which was what he promised)
See anything missing there? How 'bout some top-tier point guards? Those get you a lot farther in college ball than some star front-line players. Also, as someone else noted, Webber, Howard, and Rose were all way better than the best of this bunch (Taylor/Traylor).
Albert White actually only lasted one season here before either flunking out or getting kicked off the team (one or the other). One legitimate criticism of Fisher (in basketball terms) was his roster management around that time; we had a lot of roster attrition those last couple of seasons, which left us younger than we should have been. In the class before that, he had Bobby Crawford and Olivier St-Jean, both of whom transferred (St-Jean, who later converted to Islam and took a different name, ended up in the NBA).
I agree wholeheartedly. The Fab Five era was outstanding. Like I mentioned above, I would trade 20 years of suckitude (new word) for those 2-3 years in the early 90s.
didn't know that brian dutcher had followed him there. i remember listening to the post game radio show leaving the games, doug karsch took phone calls with either brian dutcher or jay smith (?).
"first up, steve from ann arbor" every time. who is steve?
Went to his camp when I was younger at San Diego St, was a great tourney. Coach Fisher is a great coach when he was here at Michigan and hes doing a great job with that team out west, the aztecs.
check us out at http://www.chatwolverines.com/
The fact that Fisher is being re-habbed by Michigan fans is mind-boggling. The Fab Five 2 era (Taylor, Traylor, Baston, Bullock, etc.) was populated by terrible players that the campus collectively loathed, constantly in trouble with the law, and with the NCAA. Fisher allowed Martin into the program, and didn't appropriately regulate his behavior. Fisher's fall was his own fucking fault, he was not a victim of circumstance.
Fab Five 2? Never knew about that
ah, kids these days
Are you serious?
Yes. Not a proud moment of mine but
1) Michigan doesn't exactly tout it's basketball history of the 1990s...it's like a black hole after 1993. No one seems to talk about it.
2) I began to get into Michigan sports after 2000. Wolverine Historian's great videos have introduced me to 90's Michigan Football.
If feels like you could fill about two full rosters with guys who flamed out at Michigan between about 1994 and 2002. Albert White, Motor City Willie, Josh Moore, Jamal Crawford, Avery Queen, Leland Anderson, Herb Gibson, Makhtar Ndiaye, Kevin Gaines, Brandun Hughes... I feel like I'm leaving out about ten guys. Not to mention Taylor, Traylor, Bullock...
That era was a disaster. Period. Steve Fisher may have been a nice "aw, shucks" kind of guy, but man did he ever cut corners to deliver success. And it all came out of the fact that his first two recruiting classes were absolutely awful (losing out on Eric Montross when his sister was a softball player, and he came from something like three generations of Michigan alums?). THAT is why the Fab Five happened. And after the Fab Five, he had to deliver again. So we got the bums and flameouts. And Brian Ellerbe.
I agree with you except for one player: Jamal Crawford. Obviously he was an administrative hassle (to put it mildly), but I think he could have had a great career at Michigan.
was Ellerbe's recruit.
Talented but is a ball hog. He frustrated me in his freshman year at Michigan, taking stupid, unneccessary shots. He made Manny Harris look like a guy who takes great shots.
The headband was monumental, though.
I definitely sported a matching headband with those Nike M-side-panel replica shorts in local rec ball that year. And didn't care that I was a slightly pudgy white kid.
Agreed, it was these guys that got us in trouble with the NCAA.
Aside from that, they were just lazy, terrible people. Mo Taylor had so much talent, but he was just a dog. I had classes with Traylor and Baston. Truly awful guys.
But, hey - when you recruit guys by bringing them to inner-city drug-houses, you get a certain type of player.
The one guy who doesn't deserve to be lumped in with that group is Jerrod Ward. He was a really good guy, just had bad luck, destryoed his knee (twice?) and pieced together a solid year at the end of his career.
You're usually militant about giving student-athletes the benefit of the doubt and not rushing to judgment...
But I personally knew three of these people to a degree, and they were awful, awful people.
They were also on the take, which sort of ruins the "benefit of the doubt" thing.
I don't disagree that we had some shady characters, and that we swam in some dirty pools to get them. But . . . that's college basketball. (And college football isn't that much cleaner.) Where do you think these guys come from? If you grow up in Detroit or any other inner-city area, you're basically guaranteed to know shady people, because they're all around you. College coaches have to take chances on some of these guys.
BTW, Baston graduated from school and as far as we know, has been a model citizen since then. (He has a son in 9th grade that we might eventually recruit, incidentally.)
Well, there were a disproportionate amount of guys in those classes who were failing out, getting arrested, getting into trouble... Yes, there's a lot of that kind of thing in college basketball, but those recruiting classes were like a grand convergence of all of it into this program. That's the difference.
Sure, you can take a chance on a guy or two. We took a chance on pretty much all of 'em. And ended up with squads chock full of really questionable guys.
But we have also rolled the dice on a lot of football recruits, too. It's not like it's always obvious in advance which kids will get into trouble. Our 1997 football recruiting class may take the cake:
-Jason Brooks (kicked off the team for various incidents)
-William Peterson (Ditto)
-Demeterius Smith (Ditto)
-Ray Jackson (Ditto)
-James Whitley (lasted four years - and was voted team captain! - but was kicked off before his senior year bowl game after brandishing a gun at a party)
-Maurice Williams (K-Martgate)
-Jonathan Goodwin (K-Martgate)
There were a couple others I'm drawing a blank on. Althogether, something like half that class got into legal trouble. And this was a class recruited by Lloyd Carr and which had some outstanding veteran role models to look up to its freshman year (1997!). We seemed to have a general, AD-wide problem keeping guys in line at that time. It's just interesting how fans will compartmentalize things. We were once a regular contender in the Fulmer Cup standings. I don't hold that against Carr.
It's a lot different in a football recruiting context, where you're signing 20-25 guys per year. And that was, what, one recruiting class. With basketball, where you're getting 3-5, and 50% of them or more consistently pan out to be bums or total idiots for about 5 or 6 years straight, that's an epidemic.
I mean, yeah, you're definitely right that there were rumblings around the Michigan fanbase in the mid 90's that the football program was bringing in marginal kids (and that was a pretty big knock against Moeller, there were a lot of Victors Club-type folks who were getting a bit antsy with the character of the program before the Excalibur incident even happened). But I don't think you could ever paint it in the same light of where our basketball program was going at the time. It was pretty well known that the Fab Five 2 kids, and the recruiting classes that followed, were pretty big question marks.
Brooks was trouble. I think Peterson was more one of those that studying was not his main goal. He's had a very long and productive NFL career. D. Smith was setting up bombs in dorms, so he qualifies. I don't really remember hearing too many things about Ray Jackson either. But the K-Martgate guys ended up being good dude who repented and went on to do good things. They made one big mistake, but they at least earned their way back to the right track.
But your point stands that there are problems everywhere, if you look hard enough for it.
Webber takes tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of dollars from a bookmaker, and that's not a problem?
Martin got into the program because Fisher was willing to look the other way to recruit Webber. That's a Fab Five problem.
Don't forget that while Fisher was already acquainted with Martin, he held a coaching spot open for Perry Watson until after the high school season was over so he could nab Jalen AND Webber, and bent over backwards to get Donnie Kirksey opportunities he would never have gotten if he wasn't connected to Juwan.
Fisher didn't look the other way. He did everything he could, no matter the consequences or appearances, in order to put that class together. And that's what grinds my gears every time people get passionately defensive of the Fab Five (OMG the shorts!) around here.
We skirted the rules to get them, Fisher allowed them to build an individual identity within a team that already existed as a cohesive unit before they got there, Fisher enabled Ed Martin, and we got 20 years of struggle to get back to where we were before it all started. It was shameful.
I just find this post amazingly laughable.
The reasons we don't have those banners hanging in Crisler anymore is a direct result of Fisher bending over backwards to people like Watson and Kirksey. Period.
Were you actually around Michigan basketball during that period of time?
about how much was Fisher's responsibility is where he's being "resurrected". He didn't land on his feet at West Virginia or Mississippi State or any other major conference school, but at San Diego State where he more or less fell off the map for over a decade. He may be a good coach and a great recruiter, but no major conference school, even a lesser basketball school in such a conference has given him the second chance. And, given the state of major college basketball that speaks volumes.
The most interesting hypothetical for me is this: What would have happened if Rumeal missed the free throws in the 1989 championship game?
Fisher probably gets an atta-boy from Bo and the program hires someone else. If you look at that postgame presser where Musburger asks Bo if Fisher got the job, Bo looked anything but a guy who wanted to hire Steve Fisher.
allegedly Bo had already started talking with, would you believe, Bobby Knight not about Knight's taking the job, but who Knight would recommend for the job.
That would be close to the top of my list, too.
There was talk about Knight being offered the job, but it was just talk. Your description is more accurate...I'm sure our coach would have been whoever Knight thought was the best candidate out there that we could actually get.
Every time Bobby came through town with Indiana, he and Bo ate dinner at the Old German Restaurant on Washington. Besides Woody (pre- and post-10 Year War), Bobby Knight was probably Bo's best friend in the coaching business.
By the way, I think I just made this post to talk about how much I miss the Old German.
On October 12, 1997 John Beckett, then a sportswriter for the A2 News, wrote an interesting column about Steve Fisher after his firing. The title was "Everybody was duped by Fisher nice-guy attitude"
Here are some excerpts from the article:
"Meanwhile, there were troubling incidents. Each one, at the time, may not have seemed like much. But slowly, they began to add up and form a pattern that made some begin to wonder about Fisher.
He hired Donnie Kirksey, a hanger-on to Juwan Howard, to work at his basketball camp, even though Kirksey had minimal, at best, credentials. There were reports that Fisher paid Kirksey an outlandish fee; Fisher denied those reports but refused to say how much he did pay Kirksey.
Fisher hired Perry Watson as an assistant coach amid grumbles from around the Big Ten. Fisher had timed Watson’s hiring to get a full season’s worth of unofficial recruiting from him, and Watson’s hiring was tied to Jalen Rose’s decision to play at Michigan, some conference coaches contended."
"Then came Beergate. And a summer camp scandal: Fab Fivers, and other U-M players, had been paid to do little more than sign autographs at camps and tournaments. Although U-M officials downplayed the incidents, the NCAA judged them significant enough to re-interpret its rules regarding summer camp jobs.
When Maurice Taylor rolled his vehicle in the wee hours of a Saturday morning in 1996, the incident caused some people to say more loudly what they had been talking quietly about for some time: Fisher did not have the control over his players that a coach should have, either on or off the court.
In the end, that was Fisher’s undoing. Michigan athletic director Tom Goss apparently became convinced that Fisher lacked what the NCAA calls “institutional control” over his basketball program.
How did such a nice guy - for that is the description so commonly applied to Fisher, especially early in his career - come up so short?
Was he too nice for his own good? Too trusting?
After the 1989-90 season, I had a talk with Fisher. After five seasons covering U-M basketball, I was moving on to other things. Before I did, I told Fisher that one of his players had told me that “golden handshakes” - boosters slipping players money after games - were sometimes happening in the Wolverine locker room.
I didn’t have enough on-the-record sources to write about it, but this player was one I trusted, and I thought Fisher should be alerted.
Fisher’s reaction was mildly angry disbelief. He would never believe U-M boosters or players would do such things, he told me.
An example of Steve Fisher’s naivete? I don’t think so. Steve Fisher was not that naive. Steve Fisher is an intelligent man. More likely, I think, was that if Fisher didn’t know about such goings-on, he was perfectly content to continue not knowing.
The media - myself included - made a fundamental mistake in covering Steve Fisher from the beginning. We bought into his “nice guy” image immediately and maintained it even when we should have known, or at least suspected, differently."
If you are too young to remember who he was watch the movie "Blue Chips" and you will see exactly what happened to Fisher.
When Fisher took over the lax program under Bill Freider and after winning the NC, he tried to do the right thing and institute some discipline. The next year was a dissappointment ending in a blow out loss to Loyola Maramount in the tournament. The next year was a very down year and with not having much success on the recruiting trail Fisher was starting to feel the heat. Then the number one recruit in the country, Erk Montross from Indiana, whose grandfather played at Michigan, his father played at Michigan, his mother went to Michigan, his sister was going to Michigan, decided to go to North Carolina, the wolves were at the door. Fisher then made a choice, like Nick Nolte in Blue Chips, that he did not care how the players got there, just let them come. He hired Perry Watson and the rest is history.
To this day Fisher (like Chris Webber) has never owned up to his part in the damage they did to the Michigan basketball program. If Steve Fisher did not know what was going on and had no clue who Ed Martin was, he is either a liar or the stupidest coach in the country.
Do not watch Blue Chips. It is simply a terrible movie.
This is the most interesting thread on here in 8 months. I learned a ton I didn't know. I was on State Street after the Kentucky game too. I don't look at the whole experience the same.
Makes me feel really great about where the program is now.
Ed Martin wasn't just giving money to Michigan players, they were just the only ones who actually got connected to it. Ed Martin was giving money to pretty much anyone with Detroit ties.
This can't be proven because a majority of the players that had contact with Ed Martin did go to Michigan, but I'm pretty sure if any of the players that received payments wanted to go to Michigan State (much like Mateen Cleaves) they still would have gotten something.
I can understand why Fisher was fired, it was the right thing to do. I can understand why you fire everybody associated with the program, but if Michigan replaces Fisher with Perry Watson, who pretty much could recruit anybody from the Detroit area that he wanted, Michigan as a program would have survived.
Players that went to Minnesota and Syracuse were implicated. Though without the mass, nothing came of it. Martin wasn't a Michigan booster. He was a Martin booster, looking to latch onto NBA talent. The problem was, he did it out of Detroit, where most NBA level talent went to U-M, and we didn't do ANYTHING to keep him away.
Nobody, at any school did anything to keep Martin away. What were they suppose to do. This is a man who has great connections with the players before they enter the program, and in some cases since before they entered high school.
Martin was just giving money to people, and it wasn't solely to get them to attend a program that I don't think he had any ties to besides Perry Watson, who he was really good friends with.
Who is the NCAA to tell a man who he can give money for absolutely no reason. I understand saying that he can't give money to a player to get them to go a particular school, or to get them to sign a contract to let him be their agent, or to for future advertising rights, but this really just so I can be nice to you and pay me back when you can, if you can.
Well, they did hang pictures of Ed Martin in the locker room by the early Ellerbe era that said, essentially, "Do not talk to this man." And the kids STILL took money. That's the most amazing part of it. Lou Bullock, whose parents were well off, and who didn't need the money at all, was on the take DURING THE NCAA INVESTIGATION.
So to say Michigan didn't do anything to keep him out of the program is wrong. And your entire line of reasoning is just incredibly stupid.
1. The NCAA can say that anyone who wishes to associate themselves with an NCAA program has to follow their rules.
2. Martin was running an illegal gambling business and laundering money, which led to a federal investigation, indictment, and conviction.
So yeah, there is no merit to your argument.
Shand: They had pictures of Ed Martin up in the locker room [that read] 'You Can Not Associate With This Guy'. It's in the locker room. Posters.
Not defending Fisher because he most knew what was going on and traded his integrity for wins. But to say Michigan was doing nothing, especially considering the regin of the last couple of worhtless ADs, is grossly wrong.
The player at Minnesota, Voshon Lenard, was implicated because there were violations between him and Martin when he was being recruited to go to Michigan. He decided to go to Minnesota after Michigan dropped recruiting him because of some other kind of violation, if I'm remembering correctly. It's in the Fab Five book. His implication in the NCAA report was 100% through his recruitment to go to Michigan, as well as his pre-existing relationship with Martin. Minnesota had nothing to do with it.
While Martin was connected to a lot of basketball players through Southwestern, by the time Perry Watson ended up at Michigan, he was as Michigan-booster as you could get. He was Watson's best friend, after all. And he was attached to the program during Bill Frieder's tenure as well, even though the Southwestern pipeline to Michigan was dry between Antoine Joubert and Jalen Rose. Fisher knew him well before he even became head coach. I don't think he was ever connected to another college program.
Steve Fisher is supposed to know who Ed Martin is and why he is spending all this time around the program. Just read an article about Fisher on ESPN and he is still lying about not doing anything wrong. As for making Perry Watson the coach, there is a reason that Watson never got a big time job. The guy could coach and he would get the players to come, just don't ask how he is doing it?