Spread option and our 3 QBs
Given the individual strengths and weaknesses of our three QBs that played yesterday against BGSU, I started wondering if the coaches make any significant changes in terms of play-calling depending on who is leading the O.
I realize we're running the spread option regardless, but I lack a more nuanced understanding of the system to detect whether or not it changes significantly based on QB. My instincts would tell me that Robinson might get more designed run plays and that Devin is working within a smaller subset of the entire playbook, but that's about as much as I would dare attempt to articulate.
Anyone with a bit more knowledge care to explain?
September 26th, 2010 at 10:47 AM ^
They certainly call more QB isos and draws for Robinson. Other than that, I think they run the same stuff generally.
September 26th, 2010 at 10:53 AM ^
I think the most amazing thing about this offense is each QB was able to bring their gifts to the table. Robinson is obviously the fastest of the three, and the most decisive, so he can get lots of yards on the run; his approach also shreds secondaries because they are reacting to him, so he gets more wide-open looks than any quarterback I've ever seen play.
Result: extremely balanced play with a lethal combination of short, medium, and long passes plus a lot of rushing. Heisman.
Gardner surprised me with the quality of his passing. My understanding was that his mechanics coming in were not very good and he'd need a lot of work. If so he's been working on it. He also probably has the best downfield read of the three quarterbacks because of his height. He has a lot of natural speed but was the least decisive of the three QBs. As a freshmen I remember Pryor looked the same way.
Once the game starts to slow down for him he will start to have that smooth glide look that Pryor has.
He's also a freshman. IMHO the reason that he got pulled in that game was because he threw two near-interceptions in a row because he was trying to force things, and RR decided to put Tate in to settle things down.
Result: wow, a deep threat, but less running. This kid is going to be REALLY FREAKING GOOD
Forcier has the fewest physical gifts of the three, but one thing that struck me about his play was how cunning he is as a quarterback. His instincts about how to work a secondary and use his movement to confuse defenses is something he brought with him; it's something that I noticed about him even in his first few games last year. It also makes him very decisive when he does take off, even if he's not very fast.
One thing that struck me about him is that I'm not sure he works through his read progression as fast as Gardner or Robinson, which really surprised me. That may be just because he's not perceived as much as a run threat so the secondary was playing their wide receivers tighter.
Did anyone notice how comfortable he looked in the pocket today? It must make a huge difference to have such a great line.
Result: "drive management".
September 26th, 2010 at 10:57 AM ^
Tate looked comfortable, yes. However, I still think he scrolled out a good bit when tossing down field, any quick passes were obviously in the pocket. I'd argue Devin looked more comfortable "in the pocket" he just didn't look comfortable making decisions on when & where to run.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:00 AM ^
Honestly, Gardner overall looked great. I was very impressed. Once he gets the north-south running down a little better he's going to be just, wow. We saw a lot of "I could get away with running like this in high school" yesterday.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:06 AM ^
Once the game slows down just a little bit more for him and he get better at figuring out what his limits are as far as improvising to create yards, he's going to be fantastic. His deep ball was very impressive, and he would have scored deep on two plays in a row if it weren't for Jr's drop and the penalty on the Grady TD. Great touch, great poise in the pocket, and I can't wait to see him continue developing.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:43 AM ^
Is it just me, or does Devin look pretty menacing? He has this look that says "I will break you!"
September 26th, 2010 at 12:22 PM ^
He looks very difficult to tackle, he's big and strong. He throws a pretty ball too. I'm very excited about how good he can be. I'm glad to say we finally are back to the point where we have 3 QBs who can help drive this offense.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:06 AM ^
What struck me about Tate was his ability to pass on the run. Denard can run like nobody's business, sure. But when he does, he tucks it in and is committed. When Tate runs, he can still change his mind and pass at any moment. And he doesn't lose any accuracy in doing it. That's a whole different kind of amazing.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^
Dan, I agree, but I also think it's a symptom of a bigger problem. Most of what you see when Tate is moving is him improvising and waiting for a play to open up. It's a classic QB scramble, and may be one of the reasons he seemed to frustrate Rodriguez so much. Sometimes it seems like he's trying to make something happen as opposed to running the offense. Robinson, in comparison, does use his movement to freeze defenses, but what we've generally seen is him stepping quickly towards the line to freeze the secondary and then nailing a wide receiver in full stride on a slant. This always looks like either a called play or a zone read.
It's one of the things about these quarterbacks, is honestly of the three Robinson seems the most "bought in" to the system, so you'll see three very different outcomes from three different plays (although Gardner is doing a pretty darn good job on the zone read). I often feel like Tate is still trying to use his natural talent to make things happen.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:29 AM ^
Maybe Michigan calls rollout/scramble plays for Tate and "keeper draw" plays for Robinson to work towards each of their strengths.
September 26th, 2010 at 12:12 PM ^
More than that I think Tate still goes thru his progressions better than the other 2. Don't get me wrong Denard is still the #1 QB and I think RR has even slanted the offense to help Denard.
But 2 plays yesterday convinced me of Tate's skills. First was the strong out-cut throw to Stonum under heavy pressure. Can't remember if he bobbled the snap or what - but Tate had zero time to find a receiver but threw a rope to where he knew Stonum should be. The second was when Cox never showed up to take the handoff, but Tate saw the hole and the blocking and simply ran the play himself - also making the fist defender miss and gained like 12 yards. Just a real heads up play.
I like what I saw of Gardner - but he just isn't quite ready for the speed of the game. While Denard and Tate react - I wonder if Devon is still thinking (not surprising he is a true freshman) rather than simply reacting.
Finally - I am shocked that no one has posted a topic on the incredible job the O line did yesterday. These guys were the game's MVPs.
Go Blue !
September 26th, 2010 at 3:34 PM ^
When Tate runs, he can still change his mind and pass at any moment.
Only problem with this is that it can lead to a lot of fumbles (as we saw last year).
September 26th, 2010 at 10:53 AM ^
Coach Lynch, is that you?
September 26th, 2010 at 10:57 AM ^
just some dude on the internet who fell in love with Michigan football in 2008.
If I was coach lynch I'd probably just be going "crap. Crap. CRAP."
September 26th, 2010 at 11:49 AM ^
for falling in love during the horror of the 2008 season.
September 26th, 2010 at 12:23 PM ^
I've had faith in this coach from the beginning, and i never saw a team play as hard as the 2009 team. Rodriguez coaches young men and helps them grow up, that's an amazing thing to watch.
I have to admit after nearly getting into a few fist fights about this topic I learned to keep my mouth shut, but I've saltead away the comments from my friends who said in August that he would get fired after four games.
B10 revenge tour, here we come
September 26th, 2010 at 11:51 AM ^
When they didn't have Tate/Devin take the snap and start running upfield, that would be a key nuance missing. Or when they practically stopped running with Devin. Although I really question how much option we even run, because if we were truly reading plays, it would be a give to the runningback every time. Who in the world would crash on Shaw and let Denard pull the ball? No one. (Coaching wise that is, I'm assuming it's an emphasis in practice to contain Denard when preparing for Michigan)
September 26th, 2010 at 6:57 PM ^
The key to the zone read option is that at the snap, it looks just like a normal inside handoff play. It's not like a conventional option play, where it's clear at the snap that the QB will keep the ball until the defense crashes. The DE does not know if the QB has an option to keep the ball or not, which is what keeps him from going the same way all the time (unless the D is running a scrape exchange, in which the DE always crashes on the RB and a LB behind him always takes the QB). If you have gifted runners at both positions, it's a very difficult play to stop.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:46 AM ^
prepping three QBs that all have different gifts and still be effective in this system. Sorry to veer away from your post but this is really ground breaking and I'm not sure anybody in D1 football is doing the same. Pete Carrol and Urban Meyer may have come close but Not on this level of success. The potential this type of coaching is going to revolutionize the game.
September 26th, 2010 at 11:54 AM ^
Chip and Brian Kelly (Can I do that if they're not related?) got to that party before Rich did. When the offensive line is as good as ours, with the stable of skill players to go along with it, I don't think we can proclaim anything about our quarterbacks being great just quite yet. Wait til we play a real football team.
September 26th, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^
The two Kellys both basically copied RR's offense, not the other way around.
And while BG may not be much of a defensive team, we faced our share of crappy defenses under Yost, Kipke, Crisler, Oosterbaan, Elliot, Schembechler, Moeller, and Carr. None of their teams ever gained as many yards from scrimmage as we did yesterday. The only Michigan team in history to gain more yards than we did yesterday was another RR-coached team (the 2009 squad against DSU).
September 26th, 2010 at 5:52 PM ^
Did you reply to the wrong post? I reffered to Brian and Chip Kelly having ridiculous depth at QB before Rich Rod did (Brian Kelly got down to about the 4th string or something ridiculous at one time and still produced), and I was talking about how the 2 backup QB's will perform against real competition, not the offense (which will be interesting to see as well).
September 26th, 2010 at 12:54 PM ^
is that everyone is getting a little carried away with the great win yesterday. Certainly our OL played lights out and the three-headed monster performed outstandingly. Our D is still chity and it looks like we are going to have a hard time against teams with big OLs that consistantly play well.
We need to be prepared and not overlook IN. Michigan Agricultural College will be the first real test if we don't crap ourselves against that gum-throwing guy in Bloomington next Saturday at 3:30PM on ESPNU.
In answer to the OP, the game plan calls for plays that exploit weaknesses and tendencies of the opposing D. Parts of the playbook are decided upon, mostly in advance, and each of the three-headed qb has his portion that he has digested and can implement. Denard and Tate have had the larger portion, which should be expected.
September 26th, 2010 at 1:22 PM ^
Forcier pretty much ran passing plays and an occasional run/option. There was one play where he ran straight through like Denard. But there were a lot more screens, short passes and side passes. Interestingly, Forcier never threw to the middle of the field, in stark contrast to Denard, who throws down the middle a lot when the safeties are cheating.
Gardner had more passing plays in the pocket, but a lot of what he ran was similar to Denard. Gardner's first step on the read/option keeps was markedly slower than Denard's, and big holes were closed quickly due to lack of speed (would have at least been 7 yards for Denard). But Gardner can hang in the pocket longer than Denard, and has a better sightline because he has good size. However, his speed must improve if the read/option will work for him. He has time to trim down a bit and improve his speed. If he can do that, given his throws, he can be competent under a Rodriguez offense.
September 26th, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
I agree with maiznbob. All three qbs were obviously terrific yesterday. And I think DG deserves extra kudos, since his stats don't include the two straight tds he essentially threw. But it also seems fairly likely that Kennedy might have had a nice day against that lousy defense. Making large judgments about our offense, based on the BG, reminds me of the judgments people made post-Delaware State. You just can't.
September 26th, 2010 at 4:20 PM ^
I saw this posted elsewhere on a "free site" so I can't take credit for it but I thought it was pretty much spot on. Essentially, "Denard does it all".
"The fact of the matter is, Denard does it all. I was having this discussion with my buddy yesterday and we both agreed that if you gave Denard the running ability of an "average college QB," it is still a high probability that he starts at QB for this team based strictly upon his throwing ability. DENARD IS EXTREMELY ACCURATE AND THROWS A GREAT DEEP BALL. Fact is, as much as other fans might try and tell us differently, Denard is a great passer. He is connecting on 70% of his passes and he has done it against solid competition for the most part.
Add in his exceptional running ability and you now have weapon that is unheard of.... vis a vis a record breaking quarterback. A video game character.
I also noticed the "tempo" of the offense is not the same with Tate or Devin out there. Brian Griese commented on this and he was right. It was almost as if Bowling Green was taking a breather without Denard in the game - despite the fact that they were still giving up points (Lol). The tempo of the offense slowed down considerably. Denard just puts sooo much pressure on a defense.
Denard is a special quarterback people. And really, with his being able to do everything.... throw, run, lead... there is no need to substitute for him with the lone possible exception of wanting to give him an occasional break. Besides, I don't think Rich Rod will do it anyhow. Rich Rod knows what Denard means to this offense and, consequently, I highly doubt that we would ever see packages or the kind of tinkering with this offense that would see Devin of Tate consistently substitute in for him".