So This Puts Us in the Citrus Bowl vs. Florida?
MSU has a lot of experience losing in the Final Four, so it'll be nice to see the football team take their turn. So as I see it, this means:
- MSU in the National Semifinal vs. Clemson or Alabama (once again - you've got one job, Saban)
- OSU in the Rose Bowl vs. Stanford
- Iowa in some other New Year's Six bowl
- Michigan vs. Florida (or maybe LSU) in the Citrus Bowl
Am I right?
December 6th, 2015 at 6:39 AM ^
msu avoided Ohio State in 2010. Tressel's average margin of victory over them was 24+. Weak claim to a title when you don't even play one of the teams sharing it.
December 6th, 2015 at 2:01 AM ^
I wonder how many Big Ten titles Michigan would have if they recruited criminals and played them out of prison as well...
December 6th, 2015 at 6:40 AM ^
Wouldn't the local media and newspapers being writing a huge expose on that though?
Eh, nevermind, they wlll argue with RR over team GPAs instead.
December 6th, 2015 at 2:39 PM ^
They'll do anything to incriminate the good guys
December 6th, 2015 at 12:12 AM ^
Do you realize who coaches Michigan?
Please qualify your comment in some reasonable way like, "Has the best program established." Best coach? No.
Did you see the MSU game this year? One team played winning football.
If you were honest, you'd admit that. /See what I did there?
December 6th, 2015 at 12:12 AM ^
You mean the guy whose team has been living with a surgically implanted horeshoe up their collective ass all year? They are the living embodiment of "Sometimes its better to be lucky than good".
Yeah no.......
Urban is a better coach.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:15 AM ^
They may have a head start but that doesn't make either the best coach long term.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:32 AM ^
Urban Meyer > the rest. Dude has what 4 losses in 4 years?
Yeah I'll take it.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:17 AM ^
Hats off to them this year. Dantonio has built an elite football team.
However, I just wish he would've had to build it in a REAL B1G.
He got Michigan in the Rich Rod/Hoke bullshit, PSU was touching boys and OSU was on probation, firing coaches and losing scholarships.
No question Dantonio captialized on those 3 and made MSU what it is today. I wish we could see if he could've done it with OSU and Michigan on top and PSU a top 25 team like in '06 (or early years).
He took those 2-3 years the elite teams were all down and JUMPED all over it. Then he got good enough that he's made it hard for those teams to get off the mat. As he should've no question they're good now. Again, I just wish they had to work harder to get there.
I personally don't think MSU has this success if those 3 schools didn't go to shit all around the same time.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:21 AM ^
OSU went to shit? LOL - it was 1 season of Fickell. Cmon man. I'll give you PSU and UM.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:34 AM ^
Go back and look...it's not just record.
OSU was getting HORRIBLE media attention - it was like they were going to get the death penalty. They were talking scholarships, wins, postseason bans, it was supposed to be the end of OSU as we knew it. Didn't matter that it never happened...the damage was in the attention until Meyer took over and the sanctions were lighter than they originally seemed they were going to be.
Dantonio got recruits and estabilished relationships because they didn't want to go to OSU and not play in bowls and postseason. That's a FACT.
It has nothing to do with one bad year on the field.
It was all of the controversy surrounding their program. They were supposed to get the banhammer and that investigation took a REALLY long time.
Meanwhile in EL, Dantonio was building those relationships, stealing those recruits, and building his program into what it is today.
You can't argue that.
It takes more than just record to do what Dantonio did. Notice that I never mentioned record. ALL THREE of those programs had some type of controversy. Michigan with coaches (and a coach that didn't emphasize Michigan HS recruiting and recruiting relationships, which let guys go to MSU), PSU with...yeah...and I just explained OSU's.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:54 AM ^
Sorry you said MSU rose because of the downfall of 3 programs - OSU, UM, and PSU.
OSU had a pitstop in between an egregious run - nothing like UM and pSU.
- 2005: 10-2
- 2006: 12-1
- 2007: 11-2
- 2008: 10-3
- 2009: 11-2
- 2010: 12-1
- 2011; FICKELL
- 2012: Meyer era begins (12-0)
Dantonio didnt rise up because OSU fell. Please.
If Dantonio made MSU what it is because of 13 months of bad press and 1 bad season at OSU he is better than any coach I've ever seen.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:09 AM ^
You want to talk records...
I was never talking win loss records.
Get that through your head. I was talking negative attention, controversy, and public percpetion.
OSU was facing harsh penalties
OSU "couldn't win big games"
OSU was facing HUGE postseason bans - don't go there because you'll never play in a bowl game in your 4 years
OSU was facing reduced scholarships
OSU lost Tressel
...none of that is record on the field. That's just what a guy like Dantonio had to his advantage. And if he can pick up some OSU scraps, even 3-4 players for 2-3 years because of it...it'll help him build his program. At least build it ahead of Michigan's. Do that and there's always room to keep growing until you can beat the Buckeyes, one team will never dominate...too many players to go around.
Didn't help that Rich Rod wasn't recruiting the state and maintaining those relationships with HS coaches in the area - but taking similar talent from other parts of the country. Leaving those same guys to go to MSU. Even if that's 3-4 players. That helps.
It's a combination of all of it.
Does that mean he's not a good coach? No. Does that mean he got it gift wrapped? NO! If so, why didn't another coach take advantage?
But it absolutely helped and I would've liked to see him go the hard way. Something more similar to Harbaugh right now. Harbaugh's got to go through Meyer at the top and Dantonio at the top. Dantonio didn't have to. He got to #2 very quickly because there wasn't nearly as much in his way.
But congrats to him, he's built an elite program and he's an elite coach. I'm looking forward to seeing him next year in EL. I think our coach is building us up just like he did at MSU. And I think we win next year.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:15 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 9:09 AM ^
And I never even listed a year.
Penn St. was ranked in the top 25 in 2006, right before Dantonio's arrival. They weren't Michigan/OSU (which I said.)...but they weren't what they are now either.
That was my point. They were a meh program. Remember all the close games we had with them? They weren't just some push over program. And they used to beat MSU regularly. Now they're a joke.
-------------------------------------------
Again, I didn't say 1 year. I said it was a certain period of time, there was some overlap and some that didn't overlap. But Dantonio didn't have his first 3 years at MSU with Michigan and OSU as elite programs and PSU as a stable top 25 program.
That's all I'm saying. Why are people even trying to argue this? It's a fact.
Meanwhile, unless there's something I don't know about...Harbaugh is building a program with the 3 main rivals all at the top of their game. One we don't play anymore, but we still recruit against them.
Wouldn't you agree that if this year and for the next 2 years...there was controversy swirling around those programs that Michigan would rise more quickly?
If OSU was 6-6 this year and going through a year of speculation. MSU was down and Dantonio kept taking 4*'s out of Florida rather than out of Michigan. Notre Dame had Brian Kelly know about an assistant who liked boys and was in the media with people talking about taking the football team away?
Wouldn't Harbaugh have an easier road to success and rehibilitation at Michigan?
Recruits would be lining UP to come to Michigan over those 3. And even if nothing really happened at OSU for a year and everything went away...the damage would be done. We'd have what we need from them, they can go get Meyer and resestablish their greatness...Michigan would be back and known as elite and it would be the Big 2 again.
I don't see why people think just because Dantonio had an easier road that I'm saying he's a bad coach or they lucked into this run. I didn't say that at all.
That's like saying Iowa was bad because they didn't play anyone. No. They're not bad...but wouldn't you agree that it would've been tougher if they played Michigan, OSU and MSU in the regular season?
It's the same thought process. If they played the "Big 3" in the east, they would've had a tougher road. That's a fact.
What I'm saying about Dantonio is the exact same thing. The road woudl've been tougher. Also a fact. It doesn't mean it would've been imposssible, but we'll never know what would've happened. Just like we'll never know if Iowa would've made it out beating Michigan, OSU and MSU. But it for damn sure would've been a tougher road.
December 6th, 2015 at 8:56 AM ^
Here's some public perception for you: OSU won the national championship last year. And the crap about tattoos and Fickell and whatnot is meaningless. There was a tiny blip on the radar and OSU then said fuck y'all and won a title.
If you think they are not publicly perceived as the best team in the B10 - and have been for the last 18 years - you're way too biased.
December 6th, 2015 at 9:02 AM ^
I shouldn't even respond to this...where did I say anything that you're talking about. I'm almost confused.
OSU has dominated the B1G since Tressel. That's not even a question. The fact that I had to type that to defend myself makes me want to vomit.
You've completely missed the point and you didn't type anything that related to what I was talking about. No one is arguing OSU's dominance. No one.
To take it a step further...no one is arguing MSU's dominance or whether or not THEY are an elite team. They ARE. Not even a question.
So let's stay on topic here. We're getting all over the place.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:13 AM ^
Dantonio's record over that same period:
- 2007: 7-6
- 2008: 9-4 (lost to OSU 45-7)
- 2009: 6-7 (missed OSU)
- 2010: 11-2 (missed OSU)
- 2011: 11-3 (beat OSU 10-7)
- 2012: 7-6 (lost to OSU 17-16)
- 2013: 13-1 (beat OSU 34-24)
- 2014: 12-2 (lost to OSU 49-37)
- 2015: 12-1 (beat OSU 17-14)
So yes, he absolutely turned MSU around AND he benefitted from (a) playing against down UM and PSU teams, and (b) usually missing OSU for long stretches. I count 1 solid victory over OSU in that entire span, and that was probably with his best team.
I won't argue he isn't one of the best coaches around, but I assume that at some point in 15 years we'll look back at his era and agree he was both very good and very fortunate that perrential powers around him sorta struggled.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:38 AM ^
I dont disagree that certain programs were down.
But OSU wasn't one of them. They've had a golden era btw Tressel and Meyer in the Dantonio era. MSU did not build itself up because OSU got negative press for 18 months or had 1 down year.
You also still have to do it yourself. MSU could just have been "pretty good" even with the down teams not named OSU around. They could have went 9-3 / 8-4 like Carr did a lot of those yrs instead of having 1 loss or 2 loss years. Carr had a likewise shit Big10 most of his career with far better recruits and didnt perform at this level for half a decade in a row.
UM is 1 game a year - some people act like MSU would be 7-6 annually if UM was good.
December 6th, 2015 at 8:59 AM ^
MSU absolutely benefited from what happened at that program...
Maybe not as long. But you're obsessed at looking at records and nothing else.
You love recruiting so much...why not go back and look at the recruits who probably go to OSU if
a. they had the scholarships
b. didn't have the rumors swirling around them
c. didn't have Fickell and a 6-6 year for one year
C is FAR less important than the other two. Anyone can have one down year and be fine. Tressel was 6-6 his first year.
But no question Dantonio benefited from OSU's termoil. Just like OSU, MSU and Michigan benefited from PSU's. Although OSU gets Tommy Schutt and we get Ross Taylor Douglas. Sigh.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:00 AM ^
Don't you remember how BAD the B1G was back then? At least the percpetion (because I don't recall bowl records or anything). That's really how a lot of the ESS EE CEE crap started.
They were winning and the B1G had no elite teams. We all looked like shit. It wasn't even just the losing. We just weren't a good conference. We didn't have good coaches. It was bad all around.
The only thing that saved the B1G in those years is the Big East was so damn terrible that people wanted their automatic bid so they could give it to the 2nd best SEC West team or something.
It was just a strange period. Wisconsin had a little run. MSU got better. OSU was only down for a year, but they kept losing big games. But the perception of the conference really didn't even come CLOSE to repaired until just last year.
But that time when Dantonio was rising? That's exactly when not just the teams I mentioned had problems, but the entire conference had hit rock bottom for the modern era.
Now some folks call us the best conference in America again. It wasn't even an argument back then. Our perception was so down.
That's why I don't want Dantonio to leave...because we do have an elite conference again. But that's another conversation. Point is. He made MSU into what it is with a much easier road than "normal." I would've loved to see him take that anuual 7-5/8-4 program up against Meyer and Harbaugh on top of their game with PSU solid.
He didn't just get those programs with bad years, he got them all under controversy.
In many ways, what Harbaugh is doing right now is what Dantonio should've had to do to build his program.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:23 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 9:00 AM ^
Yost, your argument would have some validity if we didn't know what Dantonio would have done if the perennial powers were NOT down.
Except we do know what would have happened because it just happened. MSU won the B10 with OSU ranked 6 at the end of the year and us ranked 15ish.
Say what you will about us not being where we used to be... except we are. Top 15.
I don't really want to hear about "BUT THEY WERE SO LUCKY THE PUNT AHHHH" because what happened happened. In fact, if we won that game and MSU rightfully won the Nebraska game, things would pretty much be the same.
December 6th, 2015 at 9:16 AM ^
No - you've missed the point completely so you can't talk about it's validity at all.
What MSU is doing now is irrelevant to the discussion we're having.
Why? Because EVERYONE knows MSU is elite now. No one is arguing that fact. Anyone who suggests that right now Danotnio isn't an elite coach or MSU isn't an elite program is a mo-ran.
Yes, they beat us, OSU and Iowa...hats off to them. But that's not what we're saying.
We're discussing how they got to this point as an elite program. And maybe they still get here...I never said they wouldn't.
All I said people was I wish MSU had to go through Michigan and OSU at their best and PSU as a solid top 25 program in the B1G.
That's it!
I just said, I wish they had to BUILD this elite program that they currently have with that in front of them.
Just like the analogy I used about Iowa...I wish they had to go through Michigan, MSU and OSU this year to see if they were truly an elite team. Not just a 1-off championship game. But play all 3.
It's wishful thinking, it can never happen...and maybe Iowa does go 12-0 with those 3 on their schedule. Or maybe they go 9-3 and it's not as easy as it was for them this year since they didn't play those teams.
When Dantonio was building MSU, I just wish he had to run the gauntlet - that's all. He was aided by a number of factors just like Iowa was aided by not playing MSU, OSU and Michigan. Doesn't mean either team wouldn't have done the same thing though.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:31 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 12:43 AM ^
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December 6th, 2015 at 2:27 AM ^
"I'm not into the 'if this, if that' type of scenarios."
-- Jim Harbaugh, 2015
December 6th, 2015 at 10:40 AM ^
Sparty to succeed as it is now. It wasn't like he was an overnight success. And actually, he did coordinate a defense that won an NC.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:18 AM ^
Urban has 3 national titles. Mork's biggest win is what, a Rose Bowl over Stanford?
December 6th, 2015 at 2:26 AM ^
Please remind me what our biggest win has been in the last decade?
December 6th, 2015 at 9:05 AM ^
I mean, outside of winning it all, can there be a bigger win for a B10 team than a Rose Bowl win over Stanford? That's a pretty fucking big win.
When's the last time we won the Rose Bowl?
If you compare it to our last BCS win - the worst Sugar Bowl in the history of ever - well, there is no comparison.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:22 AM ^
Dantonio is a top 10 maybe top 5 CFB coach for sure. Meyer also has to be up there if we are going to be completely objective, but the diffence in this one year we have so far is that Dantonio had Connor Cook for the whole season and Rudock didn't start playing like a potential late draft pick until november. If Haurbaugh is able to have a full season with Rudock, Michigan is 11-1 this year.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:26 AM ^
Dantonio is top 5 at this point. Only Patterson at TCU has taken a more broken sad program and made it nationally relevant for a long period. TCU was not even in P5 when he started this run and had TCU in the top 10 even outside B12.
MSU was a fucking joke for 40 yrs. MSU has 1 less loss than OSU now in 3 yrs. Changing a culture that has been there for 40 yrs is diff than just going to Texas or Michigan and fixing some shit that has been down for 6 yrs.
Thank god for Andrew fucking Maxwell in 2012 or this 5 yr run would be bordering on OSU level. They had one of the best rbs in the NFL on that 2012 team plus a still great defense and lost almost every game by 2-3 pts.
We might have 3 of the top 5 coaches in CFB in the East right now. It's sick.
Saban is top 2, then pick Fisher, Patterson, or Stoops as #5 and there is your top 5-7 nationally. Period.
December 6th, 2015 at 1:19 AM ^
I agree with alum96's list of top coaches, but Harbaugh with a full set of bowl practices and an off-season is going to be ridiculous. He had Rudock since what, August? If Rudock goes to spring practice does the light come on earlier? I think so. Can't wait to see our offense next year. We were good without a top-shelf talent at QB or RB. Thinking about that is very encouraging for the future. Connor Cook's level of QB play was a one-time ever thing for MSU. That level of QB play will soon be the norm for Michigan. (OK, maybe not quite as good as Cook, but close.)
December 6th, 2015 at 12:33 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 1:53 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 9:43 AM ^
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December 6th, 2015 at 11:47 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 12:05 AM ^
When do we find out? Tuesday? Sunday?
December 6th, 2015 at 12:13 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 12:06 AM ^
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December 6th, 2015 at 12:11 AM ^
No shot.
We'll play on NY Day though.
December 6th, 2015 at 7:09 AM ^
So...
Cotton #1 Alabama v #4 MSU
Orange #2 Clemson v #3 Oklahoma
Sugar Ole Miss v Oklahoma Stare
Rose Stanford v Ohio State
Peach Houston v UNC
Fiesta ND v Iowa
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December 6th, 2015 at 12:08 AM ^
I don't even care which bowl at this point. Just win the damn thing and generate some momentum going into next season. Just finally end the genital kickings, please. I cannot fucking believe what a goddamn process that has become.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:06 AM ^
somehow flips Alabama and Clemson. MSU would beat Clemson
December 6th, 2015 at 12:08 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 12:10 AM ^
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December 6th, 2015 at 12:13 AM ^
December 6th, 2015 at 12:16 AM ^
Oklahoma has the passing attack to, you know, exploit their secondary. More than two or three long post routes a game, at any rate.
December 6th, 2015 at 12:38 AM ^
I think Alabama is really overrated. They have some incredible athletes, but they just haven't looked good. I think Oklahoma matches up really well. Everyone thinks offense with them, but they actually have a pretty good defense that causes a lot of turnovers and features a surprising amount of future NFL draft picks. The only concern I have with them is the youth on the offensive line (both starting tackles are freshman) and the fact that their offense is so rythem and tempo oriented, which might suffer with the long amount of off time.