so DB lied to us
i think DB has actually been 100% honest, despite most of you not wanting to believe that.
When he said "he thought the players deserved to have a coach in the bowl", most of you thought he couldn't possibly believe that, and that it was part of some master plan... i'm pretty sure he was being 100% honest
or Hoke is going to get paid well more than what he's currently worth.
He could bend DB over a barrel. At this point Hoke could demand 4+ million per year. What could DB do? He can't go back and say Hoke is not worth it after telling everyone middle of the pack salary is not appropriate. Especially after proclaiming Hoke was his first choice. I'm not saying he would do that, just that he could.
Thankfully, Hoke appears to have more class than that. It's one of the attibutes of a "Michigan Man."
What the article may not uncover is whether or not Miles was one of those coaches Brandon mentioned that was "in it for themselves." Perhaps Brandon DID offer more money but wouldn't give Miles cart blanche on the length of the contract just so Miles wouldn't have to worry about finding another job before he retired.
The point is, who know? Who cares? Does this article and your subesequent posting of it change what's what? Move on man. Hoke's our coach.
I think Miles showed some class for turning down a raise to come to Michigan, and for not using the opportunity to demand more money from LSU. I mean, none of us can know what went on in that interaction, but Miles also comes across, ironically, as a Michigan Man, one who is not motivated by money alone.
Brandon said we would pay what it took to get the right coach. He didn't guarantee that the next guy would make top-5 money or anything like that.
In the official RR-is-fired press conference, Brandon said Michigan had previously been "in the middle of the pack" in paying its coaches and that he didn't "necessarily believe that's appropriate."
The implication was that Michigan wasn't paying enough to attract top level coaching talent and that was going to change.
My point was that Hoke's resume doesn't even demand as much as RR's did, much less more.
Again, I don't see that as a guarantee that the next coach would break the bank. I see that as a statement that money would not be an issue in the hiring of the next coach.
Incidentally, we haven't skimped on head coaches. Both Carr and RR received pretty much market-level salaries. It's been more the assistants (especially coordinators) that have been underpaid.
I'm not seeing us bringing in coordinators and positions coaches with the credentials to warrant a pay higher than their predecessors either.
I want some of what you're on...
MGoMatt is clearly a plant from the AD designed to re-shape opinion on MGoBlog and make everyone happy and contented with the new hire.
Hard to tell from the pic but he's a siberian husky.
EDIT: Put up a better pic.
Check the post out below this one.
Already being discussed. Read Impromptu Poll: Was Miles Offered the Job? thread
Not necessarily. It could have been phrased like:
"If I were to offer you a job with x dollars, would you take it?"
But it's pretty obvious to many that DB's first lie was after the OSU game, or possibly a lot earlier, when he said he would "make his decision" after the bowl game. I find it to be sad that lying to the public so blatantly about such an important issue while representing the University of Michigan isn't a fireable offense, but I guess some employees are on a longer "leash" than others.
DB has to do what he has to do. If true, and who really cares, why would he say I am proud to announce my third choice to be the next Michigan football coach.
The one thing that bothered me is if he was going to fire RR he should have done it before the bowl. Are recruiting seems like its collapsing.
I don't undertand how the OP assumes that DB is the one lying. Isn't it interesting the article says that the person heard Les Miles turned down that type of money. There is just as much speculation that DB lowballled him. Who cares at this point.
Well Brando did consider a career in politics correct? Why are we surprised...
When it rains, it pours.
......that some people's egos are so large that football is about them and not the team, or something to that effect.
I dont think DB lied. I think DB (who may well have been a teamate of Miles at Michigan) went to see him with an open mind. .......which should tell you a lot........teamates and the hire is not a slam diunk. Have you ever met Miles? I have, a few times. There is no doubt in my mind that his meeting reminded DB what a horse's ass Miles is.
this latest local story about Miles turning Michigan down is probably as honest as Miles' behavior in the "oversigning" story. Its what Les wants to believe.
Even if he came to Michigan and won, Miles would be an embarrassment.
this latest local story about Miles turning Michigan down is probably as honest as Miles' behavior in the "oversigning" story. Its what Les wants to believe.
Yep. For some the truth is a matter of black and white, for others it's a matter of the shades that cast them in the most favorable light or put them in the most favorable postion.
Well, if he turned down the first money offer, and then DB offered him more and he turned it down again, that seems to me he was offered the job, correct?
Brandon is a master of truthiness.
DB: "so in theory, if i paid you 5 million a year would you want to be the coach at Michigan"
Les: "I've got a damn fine football team"
DB: "oh well good because we uh..we don't want you anyway....jerk. BRADY!"
The fact that he's come out and said this probably means that he want to make himself feel good that he got a coach that told UM no. The main reason I don't think Les got a serious offer is that, reading between the lines, one of the criteria for DB and MSC, given that UM is on probation, is who will not get UM in trouble with the ncaas.
We have a GREAT coach in Brady Hoke!
I think it's a blessing in disguise that we landed Hoke instead of Miles.
This is a new chapter in Michigan Football and anything is better than the last 3 years.
who may turn out to be great (hopefully) is defined by you as great, beyond his obvious ability to say the right things. Let's not define the term great downwards. Urban Meyer, despite his issues, is a great coach. Brady Hoke is not (yet anyway).
Great is certainly not a term I would use to describe Hoke at this point - he hasn't coached one single down of football at the university.
So far the best thing he has done is secured the commitment of Denard.
Short term I have seen nothing in the way of recruiting and we lost a kicker today to the University of Miami. I am hoping that the so-called recruiting prowess is shown REAL fast.
...a kicker who had already switched his verbal commit is always going to be real secure regardless of the coach...
If you wanted to make a case for Dallas leaving (which isn't completely done yet) I'd listen but Goudis leaving is not on anything resembling the coaching change.
or David Brandon is.
Which guy has the stronger motive to lie?
Until we get more inside info to indicate otherwise, I think it's Brandon, since he's wanted to present the idea that Hoke was his only choice. I wonder if Brandon's pushing that notion because his ego is so colossal that he simply can't admit to the outside world that anybody would have the gall to turn him down.
Some fans don't like him because of questionable game management, and lots of controversy over his loyalty to Gary Crowton and a sketchy offense, plus two years of 8 and 9 wins. Desire to maybe coach at Michigan is further down the list.
I think this is all in the semantics. I am guessing Brady Hoke is the only one given a real offer, and the discussions with Habaugh and Miles wentvsome like "if we were to offer you something like $5.2 (or $4.2) mil, would you be t head coach at Michigan, an both said "Let me get back to you", and then came back wity a no.
It's mearly a way to save face. What I don't get is why he just doesn't say "look, we fully gauged their interest, and they both said no, so Hoke is the guy." That would go a long way in cementing support for Hoke.
I am wondering if Jim and especially Les looked at the roster, and the work required, versus the risk, andecided their other option had a better hance for success.
I also don't get this "about them, vs. about Michigan" thing. Why publically say that when you may want to take another run at a person downstream if things don't work out.
See my post below. Also, that first discussion of terms was probably not directly between Harbaugh / Miles & DB. They have people for that. DB engaged once it was clear that the candidate would, generally, agree to the terms Michigan was putting forward.
When we read in the news that Pinkel or Fitz turned Michigan down, I doubt they did that after a 5 hour interview with DB. It was done by their agents after the initial inquiry or set of inquiries from Michigan.
It's like Lenin says, man. You look for the person who benefits and um... and um.... and uh you know...
"I am the Walrus"
If anyone believes that a guy with a 47-50 career record would be the #1 choice over a guy who just went 12-1 and won the Orange Bowl (Harbaugh) and a guy who won a national championship a few years ago and has 11+ wins in 4 of 6 years at LSU (Miles), then there's a great deal on a bridge I'd like to offer you.
Hoke might be a good coach at Michigan, but I doubt he was option #1. That doesn't necessarily mean that Harbaugh and Miles were formally offered the job, though.
NCAA record under Miles I can believe that Hoke might have been a choice ahead of Miles. I do believe that Harbaugh was approached in some manner first though that is just my thoughts based on nothing concrete though.
something would be seriously wrong with Brandon's judgement. There is no way a qualified football mind could at the beginning establish Brady Hoke as a number one choice. He may turn out great, but based on track record there is no possible way to prioritize him ahead of several other coaches mentioned in the CC process.
If you hire someone considering resume as more important than character, frankly, you're a fool.
You hire someone with a great resume but no integrity, you've just hired someone who is liable to steal from your organization. And if they're clever, competent, and well-polished (as a good resume might indicate), they're more likely to get away with it. How is that worthwhile?
Maybe Hoke wasn't the first and only person pursued. This is quite likely. in fact. But I do not find it implausible that Hoke was the best choice available on DB's short list.
See, the thing about egomaniacs is that they're always just one step away from being a crook. There is nothing worse than a liar, cheater, or thief. Especially when they're on your payroll.
Are you saying RR didn't have character and Hoke does? Or that resume is over-rated? and who is the egomaniac? Who steals from the organization? Is it just me or this cryptic, confusing and not clear at all.
Not sure where RR comes into the picture, as he was not mentioned in your previous post, or Magnus's post to which you replied. I was working under the framework of comparing candidates in this search -- did not consider someone bringing RR into the picture, so sorry for any confusion.
A logical inference would be that I was referring to Miles and Harbaugh, the presumed top candidates in the search, as egomaniacs. It seems to be the case. Perhaps it is unfair to Harbaugh, though he has earned that label in my mind by choosing money and fame over loyalty. But perhaps this is unfair, as we do not know the real motives behind his choice -- they may have been noble, indeed.
But we do know that Miles is a crook. He's a liar and a swindler, and surely an egomaniac. Harbaugh might seem angelic in comparison. My point was simply to point out the danger in hiring someone who puts their own interests first. No matter how talented they may be, they are strictly a liability; the longer you have them around, the more likely they are to burn you. So, your second guess was right: Resume is over-rated
Hoke was probably not the first "choice" or the first person terms were thrown at. He was the first person who met the hiring criteria and was agreeable to the terms. DB wasn't going to make the final offer until it was clear it would be accepted and only one offer was made.
Didn't Brandon say he based his decision on who to hire on twelve different criteria? The prior records of the various candidates was only one of many things he considered.
Why is so hard for people to believe that Miles simply wasn't a serious candidate given that his LSU program has gotten into trouble with the NCAA and has a reputation for oversigning players? Why would Michigan, having just been put on probation, take a chance with that sort of candidate--regardless of his previous ties to the program and regardless of his won-loss record?
I'm done with this crap.
So how much do we think Hoke is getting? He was only making $700,000 at SDSU. How much of a raise are we giving him?
Not much more, maybe up to 1.5, but either way he's cheaper and leaves more money for a top DC.
Meaning a top DC. We seem to be looking at Vance Bedford, who definitely is not one.
Next stop: the center of the Earth.
that once he gets to the center of the Earth, he has truly hit bottom, literally cannot go lower.
The farther removed I am from the hiring of Brady Hoke, the less it seems to matter to me. This being said, I get the feeling that Les Miles was probably given some sort of courtesy offer in the knowledge that he would likely not accept it. Seems like a lot of what happened down at LSU was meant to drum up support from their skeptical fanbase (i.e., they knew that historically he wanted to be at Michigan) than to sincerely be the prelude to Les Miles coming here. I have to believe also that, at some point, for however brief a time, Harbaugh was going to come, but alas, that didn't happen. Again, I have no basis for that other than my own feeling from everything that I read.
Was Dave Brandon lying? Well, if we're going to pursue that, then let us break it down and discuss it this way - about what?
Brandon's incentive to lie -- make it look like Michigan job is super-attractive, and no one would turn it down.
Jacobs's incentive to lie -- make LSU look like a more attractive place to coach, make Les Miles look like his loyalties to LSU have never been stronger, and make it seem like LSU doesn't have to up its contract
I think Jacobs's incentive to lie are as much as, if not more, than Brandon's.
I also think that, for better or for worse, Hoke WAS Brandon's first choice:
what does that say about Brandon??!!
How about we give Hoke a chance to coach this team before we draw conclusions about "what it says"?
This is obvious, but thanks for posting because apparently some people don't see the obvious.
Where is the proof that Jacobs isn't lying? Why are people so quick to assume that DB lied based on this statement? The only objective reason would be that this statement was made more recently...
This all is like something out of Animal Farm.
This should surprise absolutely no one. Hoke was never the first choice, and by all accounts Brandon asked Harbaugh, Miles, and Fitzgerald and all either weren't interested or turned down an offer. This is why all of the "Brandon said Hoke was #1 and you guys are all just haterz" rants annoyed me - I'm going to support Hoke, but he was the third or fourth option at the winningest football program in history, and that really bothers me.
As opposed to what? Standing in front of the podium and saying "No, he wasn't my first choice. Actually, he wasn't even my second choice. But he was the first guy who said yes, so that's why we're standing here today..." If that makes him a "liar", then so be it. In the end, which statement would you really be more upset about?
On another note, did anyone else notice the quote "Rocket surgeon".. I hope this was intentional.
The way this likely worked with Miles, if LSU is telling the truth, is that Miles' agent talked contract terms with the office of the AD. DB's visit with Miles probably did not include the phrase "Les, I would like to offer you the head coaching position at Michigan". It was probably more along the lines of "So, we aren't able to come to terms, is that what I understand?" or "Sorry we couldn't make this work" or "What do you think of Brady?"
I am not guessing here, either. The typical first discussion I have when I am recruited for new positions involves expectations for compensation. I have the same conversation with candidates when I am hiring as well. The reason I do this is so I don't waste time putting someone through a long interview process if we are way off on our compensation expectations. The higher the level of compensation, the longer this initial discussion lasts -- especially if your qualifications for the position are well established.
So, we get back to the definition of "offered". I am sure someone at Michigan contacted Miles' people and basic terms were discussed. Miles, obviously, was not interested in those terms and the discussion stopped. DB probably never officially offered the job to Miles and he probably wasn't the person who talked terms with Miles.
So no one is lying. Everyone is telling their version of the truth.
There are many ways to discuss the parameters of a hypothetical offer, without ever actually offering the job.
So Brandon can say truthfully that he never formally offered Miles, even if he made it clear that he would offer if Miles wanted it. The same, of course, is true of Harbaugh, even if the exact words “I offer you the job of head coach at Michigan” were never uttered.
The truth is always somewhere in the middle.
Hoke may be the only coach who was given a formal offer, but I have to believe that Harbaugh, and possibly Miles, were told the job was there's if they wanted it.
Conversely, I'm sure the LSU money discussion isn't 100% accurate either.
Is it likely that 100 percent of what Brandon has told us over the past 10 months is true? No.
Is it something we should obsess about? No.
We have our guy. Whether he works out for us remains to be seen. But it serves little purpose to keep on wailing about what might have been.
In some instances it's counterproductive to be completely honest with the general public. Maybe this was the case, maybe not. It feels demeaning to be mislead, but that's the way it goes.
DB has a lot of reasons in stating things the way he did.
1. He doesn't want to label Brady Hoke as "second choice" just as one wouldn't want to label any important hire or relationship as a "second choice". Imagine how that would go over with the fans and just apply that to your own personal life: "Oh, honey, yes I'm very happy with you but if Ms. Victoria Secret had wanted me she was my first choice." Neither he nor any of the potential hires wanted to be embarassed.
2. Technically he is probably actually correct. In these types of jobs where the pay is in the high 6 and low 7 figures, what usually takes place is a set of meetings between representatives and/or the principals. Our side puts out feelers to the reps of Harbaugh and then reportedly Miles asking basically "hey, were the job at the UM (note subjunctive mood) to be offered, do you think he'll be interested." Then if we have a positive nibble "well, if the job were to be offered we'd certainly like to hear more like conditions x, y, and z." Then we dance back with "OK, sure we understand that you'll be interested in conditions x,y, and z and we can offer terms a, b, and c."
3. At this point after who knows how many iterations, if both sides are still doing this dance, one side or another, will bring up "well, it certainly sounds like we are on the same page, shall we make it a formal deal?". Then an "offer letter" is formally drafted up on official stationary, with all of these points x,y,z and terms a,b,c listed out, so that both sides can have their lawyers do one last vetting through.
So, yes, he is probably absolutely correct and can pass a lie detector test easily when he states only Brady Hoke got an offer, because probably he was the only one who got that far. We don't know how far the initial dance got with Jim Harbaugh or Les Miles. One factor to keep in mind is that we don't know how much either JH or LM wanted to come to Ann Arbor. Both have other negotiations to deal with, and so keeping alive the discussion about JH or LM possibly going to Ann Arbor may be useful to their reps when dealing with say the 49ers or LSU.
But no doubt he did "talk" with other people and their reps besides Brady Hoke.
One day, when Brandon writes his memoirs we might know his side in detail.
Harbaugh and Miles were NEVER considered for the job. The "national job search" was a big sham, created to get everyone behind Hoke. "Harbaugh's going to the NFL"...."Miles is staying in Baton Rouge"...If anyone really thinks Miles would have stayed at LSU over Michigan, they are crazy. And the same goes with Harbaugh. Hoke was the ONLY choice and the "job search" was just window dressing. Mary Sue Coleman didn't want Harbaugh or Miles.
The meeting with Miles was basically to make fans and alumni happy. Brandon can say, I never offered Miles the job because he made it clear that he was happy at LSU. And he never offered the job to Harbaugh because he was heading to the NFL. There are 32 jobs in the NFL and openings come up every year. The Michigan job is 1 of 1 and may not open again for 10 years. Harbaugh was able to use the Michigan job to leverage NFL money. Miles was able to use the Michigan job to "show" loyalty to LSU. It was a win, win for all sides.