So is Beilein feeling any pressure?
I'm not seeing any improvement from last year. Next year with Sims gone and potentially Manny how do we improve? We need a true center and more than two scorers. I don't see any reason to hope for a consistent winner for 2-3 ... 4 years. Is that too long to wait for Beilein? At least with RR I'm seeing the talent pool filling up. I don't follow alot of BB so please comment. Go Blue!
January 27th, 2010 at 11:10 AM ^
Sure he's feeling pressure. Every coach worth a crap feels pressure to win. Is he feeling pressure from the AD? Probably not even a little bit. Remember the 10+ year wasteland? BB does not come close to = FB at UM. JB isn't even in tepid water.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:11 AM ^
It's Pretty simple.. no.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
Can we just delete this thread now?
January 27th, 2010 at 11:14 AM ^
I'm sure the University is not pressuring him at all.
All he really needs to do is secure the improvements to the basketball facilities by getting to the NCAA tourney (which is unlikely this year). That will take ~3 years.
Maybe with more players in his system, we get better next year, even after losing >60% of our scoring?
January 27th, 2010 at 11:16 AM ^
He should be. This year has been a major disappointment and his two best players are guys he did not recruit. I think a lot will depend on what happens next year when the roster has turned over quite a bit more. This is basketball, where in theory, it is supposed to be easy to bring in your recruits and find success right away if you are a top-tier coach. I still think he can turn this program around, but the teams performance this year has really confused me. The team has talent, and to the extent that he is missing the pieces he needs to be successful, it is his fault for not bringing in what he needs on the recruiting trail.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:17 AM ^
He just signed a contract extension like two weeks ago. Calm down.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:21 AM ^
I don't know if he's ever said so explicitly, but others have said for him that he needs guys that "fit his system." And yet, the only good players are guys that he didn't recruit (or in Manny's case, didn't exclusively recruit).
It's similarly alarming that the two best players - by far - on the football team last year (the Brandons) weren't Rich Rod's guys.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^
Was Chad Henne the best player on the team when he was a freshman? Oh right no he wasn't.
Young players are not as good as older veteran players especially in football.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:38 AM ^
Are there ANY frosh or sophs that seem likely to become elite-level talents (as Graham, at least, was)? I would say "no," or "maybe" at best.
Just like with hoops, you can't say Manny will be gone but with anothe year or two Morris will be as good.
I'm not saying Beilein's job is - or should be - in jeopardy. I'm just disappointed and the future looks dim.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:00 PM ^
I can't stand this idea that the future of the bball program is somehow looking dim. Beilein has 2 players on the roster that are not true freshmen. Two. Total. Morris looks to be very solid and the rest of his guys are TRUE FRESHMEN. Unless you are in the top 20 players in the nation, usually you don't come in and average 20 a game. I would think that guys like Zeigler and Horford looking seriously at our program and someone like Brundidge actually committing might suggest the exact opposite of our future looking dim, but what would I know.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:13 PM ^
I'm assuming that you are talking about next year because this year we 7 players who are not true freshmen.
For next year, Novak, Douglass, and LLP will be Juniors.
Ant Wright has the option of a fifth year
Morris and Vogrich will be Sophs.
Jordan Morgan and Blake McLimans will be Freshmen but not true Freshmen.
Not sure about the whole two total guys who are not true freshmen. Maybe you meant, two total true freshmen on the roster, but we have 4, Morris, Vogrich, Morgan, McLimans and 6 if you include Cronin and Akunne (but Cronin is done with bball and Akunne is not on scholarship). ????
Just look at this a-MAIZE-ing chart that Dylan of umhoops made.
http://www.umhoops.com/scholarshipbreakdown/
http://www.umhoops.com/scholarshipbreakdown/ January 27th, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
No, I was talking about guys Beilein actually recruited. Douglass and Novak are the only scholarship players that JB recruited who are not true freshmen (unless you count Cronin, then you are looking at 3). My point was that I don't know how one can say our future looks dim when the players you are basing your statement on are true freshmen or sophomores on a team that, until last year, hadn't made it to the dance in 10 years. I am not saying he will positively succeed, but this is getting ridiculous.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:25 PM ^
It's not true in basketball that the best players aren't underclassmen. John Wall is the best player in the country as a true freshman. Kalin Lucas was Big Ten MVP as a sophomore last year. Manny was Michigan's best player as a sophomore last year. In fact, I think that the entire First Team Big Ten was comprised of sophomores last year.
If my memory serves me correctly, Michigan sent a team to the Finals in 1992 with a starting lineup of ALL true freshman.
It may be true in football, but there's no reason for basketball players to not be major contributors as freshman or sophomores.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:33 PM ^
In basketball it's pretty much the opposite. The elite players are pretty much all underclassmen who never make it beyond 2 years because they make the leap to the NBA. Kids leaving early is a good problem to have, because that means you've been bringing some bonafide talent into your program.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:45 PM ^
So you think JB, after taking over a team that hadn't been to the dance in 10 years and hadn't won a B10 title in over 20, would just be able to step in and get a John Wall in his first or second year?
January 27th, 2010 at 1:53 PM ^
I'm very disappointed in how this season has gone, and especially last night's game.
But the idiots negging you 1) know nothing about basketball, 2) have ridiculous expectations about where the program ought to be right now, or 3) some combination of the two.
If we bring in Calipari, yeah, we're going to get top 10 guys over and over. But we're also going to get NCAA violations and the type of sleazy behavior that put us in this situation to begin with. Beilein is a great coach, strong recruiter, and great guy - people who have forgotten where we were and what we did LAST YEAR deserve the bad things that happen to them.
January 27th, 2010 at 10:56 PM ^
That's not what I said. The statement was made that, "Generally the best players on your team are not underclassmen", and that's simply not true.
As a I pointed out, the five best players in the Big Ten last year were all underclassmen. The best player in the country this year is currently an underclassmen. That's no reflection on Beilein, it's simply the current state of NCAA basketball.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:53 AM ^
That may have had something to do with the fact that Rich Rod's guys were all freshmen and sophomores.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:22 AM ^
The man just signed an extension and you are already throwing him out the door?
WTF is wrong with you?
January 27th, 2010 at 11:22 AM ^
Remember what Amaker Ball was like?
If you do, you should be able to answer your own question.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^
I realize this has been a tough season, but this is still a VERY young team. We have 8 freshman and sophomores. Yes, Manny and Deshawn are potential NBA players. However, this team is very much like football playing young players who should come together in their later years.
Interesting time to post the Beilien feeling heat thread, you know, a day after almost upsetting the No. 5 team in the land.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^
Short answer: No
Long Answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Long Answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
January 27th, 2010 at 11:24 AM ^
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4815918
He just signed an extension through 2015-16. He runs a tremendously clean program and coached U of M to their first tournament appearance in more than a decade.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
His team beat Duke and UCLA last year, made it to the second round of the tourney. They beat UCONN this year and came within a layup of beating #5 MSU. Sure they've been a bit disappointing this year, but how much of that has to do with expecting more than we should? At this point he would need a good 3 or 4 year stretch of under-performance to feel even the slightest bit of heat.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^
As others note, doubtful with the recent extension.
As for talent, your point on big men is valid. Not many big ten bodies in front court on this team, and beyond Morgan, thin next year again. But he's got talent coming in. Metrics and Hardaway, possibly TZ (though that's pretty iffy, it sounds). Carlton Brundidge, top player in the state according to some in the '11 class. In on some other high quality kids.
He'll get it going, but 2010/11 may be another frustrating year if guys like Novak and Douglass continue to struggle beyond the arc. Maybe Manny comes back? (hopeful)
January 27th, 2010 at 11:30 AM ^
If John Beilein is feeling job pressure, than we've reached a new level (we = collective sports society, I guess) of impatience.
I totally agree that a post player is highly needed (Ekpe Udoh, ugh), but I mean, honestly, how can this even be a thought? I blame ESPN and the constant stream of information and manufactured stories leading to fans falling into cliched thinking. Not every bad season earns a "hot seat." Not every disappointment requires "pressure."
January 27th, 2010 at 11:31 AM ^
No. Other than typical pressure coaches at bigtime schools put on themselves. He's a good, proven coach with over 500 career wins. I'm glad he's here.
Otherwise, I will just cut and paste my comment from the 'On Track' thread:
They are way more capable of overcoming the departures of Sims and Harris than the program was in the fall of 2007 when they were trying to replace the Sims-Horton-Petway group that had been the core for 2-3 years. The roster will more talented and experience than it was in the fall of 2007. I think folks will be pleasantly surprised.
But, lets be honest, a big factor as far not really missing a beat will be locking down Ziegler and Horford. If JB can get those guys inked and into the program, then I think next year will be a lot like this year and last year: A fight the whole way, walking a thin, tight postseason line with little margin for error. But, I would really like our chances
The roster will have more Rivals top-150 players and as many 4-stars as it does now, with another really good recruit in Brundidge adding to those numbers the following season.
I really really like the look of 2011-12 when Novak, Douglass and LLP are seniors.
Bottomline: The roster will be more ready to go than it was after the last season that saw a wave intergral players depart. Add, we look to be adding a good-looking 4-man recruiting class. We'll have a lot more of a fighting chance than people think. But, I understand that feeling as Sims and Manny look so irreplaceable as you watch the current team play out.
FTR, I think we will definetly get Horford. Ziegler is a coin flip. If we offer, Horford will committ. At least from what I've read. Ziegler wont decide until April. The waiting is the hardest part.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:38 AM ^
So you don't follow basketball yet you haven't seen any improvement from the basketball players?
I'm glad we don't have fucking idiots on mgoboard... wait no I'm not, because we have them in bundles!
January 27th, 2010 at 12:09 PM ^
follow all the recruiting etc. I watch the games. I was just looking for a sense of how YOU you experts thought the program was progessing. Thanks for lowering yourself to the level of our competition with your response. Really not an expert response though ... thugs respond better than you.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:11 PM ^
You've already proven yourself to be something of an ignoramus. Just stop embarrassing yourself.
January 27th, 2010 at 5:54 PM ^
, and die hard fan, you validate to me why other schools hate UM. Have some class. It was just a simple question. It generated at least some constructive comments. Sad.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:39 AM ^
Is he in an autoclave?
January 27th, 2010 at 11:40 AM ^
Although I'm not a huge fan of Beilein ball, he is a really good coach, and thus far he has done a tremendous job recruiting, and if he manages to bring in Horford and/or Zeigler then I will add another Lloyd-tremendous to the job Beilein has done.
January 27th, 2010 at 1:32 PM ^
...but a TREMENDOUS job recruiting thus far? Maybe overstating it juuuusssst a little bit?
January 27th, 2010 at 8:10 PM ^
I think that bringing in top 100 kids in Darius Morris, Evan Smotrycz, Tim Hardaway jr., Carlton Brundidge, and just outside the top 100 in Matt Vogrich, is pretty good considering when he first arrived he was accused of being racist by a few Detroit High School coaches. Not to mention having the worst season in program history, and losing our best player Ekpe Udoh.
Then if you add in the possibility of Horford, along with being in the lead for top 25 kids like Zeigler, and Amir Williams in 2011.
Oh, and did I mention Crisler is kind of a dump, he had to buy lights so the court wasn't so dark, and we are the only major conference program without a practice facility?
I'd say he's doing a tremendous job recruiting.
January 27th, 2010 at 10:09 PM ^
Because that's what drawing borderline top 100 recruits is. You don't win a whole lot with them, but you can be pretty good.
And many, including this site, would disagree that he's in the lead for Zeigler. And 2011 recruits? A pipe dream at this point. Have to land them first.
I'm guessing he didn't pay for the lights himself...but point take. But you're wrong about the only major conference program not having a practice facility. That's been kinda a myth. A lot don't have them, or are in the process of building them too. Including Indiana, the all time most successful program in the Big Ten (who was just finishing theirs up, I believe). It's still just wishful thinking at Minnesota. But if you mean, Michigan State has one, then, well, yeah.
So, while I'm not saying he should be roasted over it yet by any mean...tremendous has low meaning by your standards.
January 27th, 2010 at 10:29 PM ^
The whole tremendous bit was an homage to Lloyd speak more than anything else, but 2011 isn't a pipe dream. Basketball recruiting works differently than football recruiting. You always have to be thinking multiple years down the road. Beilein and his staff are already working on 2012 kids.
The 2010 recruiting cycle for basketball is all but over, as there are maybe 5 or 6 kids in the top 100 who are still undecided. The 2011 recruiting cycle is already underway. Basketball recruiting is a whole different animal.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:09 PM ^
That I didn't get.
Though maybe that should have been "TREE-MEND-OUS!!" :-P
January 27th, 2010 at 11:46 AM ^
And realistic expectations are found in the spread for every game. The people that make those lines are about as objective as one can be. If they think M is a 4.5 dog to a favorite, then they've exceeded expectations.
No. I think JB coaches at M until he retires if he wants to.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:50 AM ^
Absolutely not. He's here for the long term.
Remember, nobody expected him to be as successful as he was last year. This is just regression to the mean.
January 27th, 2010 at 11:50 AM ^
1. He took Michigan to their first NCAA tourney in over 10 years last season.
2. He has some good talent coming in (despite a disappointing season).
3. He's the head of the NCAA Ethics Committee and has established himself as one of the cleanest coaches in the country.
4. He just signed a long contract extension and has the full support of the athletic department (including Dave Brandon).
It's going to take more than one disappointing season to offset all of that.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:08 PM ^
Call me a little biased because I lived in WV my whole life before I enrolled in LSA. I was always a huge Marshall fanatic and could not care less about the team up in Morganhole, but the success RichRod and Beilein enjoyed at the university was impossible to ignore. Beilein needs to stay at University of Michigan for quite some time for the multitude of reasons mentioned prior to this post.
Having said that, we need Zeigler/Manny to stay. I feel like Smotrcyz can be the real deal, but quite frankly I'm a little uneasy about the immediate future of Michigan basketball. The beauty of basketball recruiting is that we need only 1-2 immediate impact players per class. I simply don't believe we can ever build our team around Novak/Douglass/LLP (Morris might break out?). I believe those guys blossom as role players around Smotrycz, Manny, and Zeigler next year. To say we need Manny and Zeigler next year I believe is thus far the biggest understatement of this premature decade.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:25 PM ^
He is a serious competitor and there is no doubt he is feeling heat. The heat is internal. The guy wants to win, and you can tell he is frustrated by the results. We have a winner here, he is 100% in a totally different league from Amaker.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:27 PM ^
but I think this team will be better when we don't rely on one or two guys (sims and manny), and get back to team ball.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:59 PM ^
It's hard to measure improvement outside of the win column, but a few reasons the team may seem worse are:
1) Tougher schedule
2) Losing tons of close games and blowing leads
3) LLP, Douglass and Novak are having sophomore slumps and are shooting threes at a MUCH lower percentage than last year/if Stu Douglass isn't hitting his shots he's a liability on the court; at least Novak hustles in other areas
4) There is a leadership void from last year (speculation)
5) Other than Darius Morris, there is no true point guard on the team; the added responsibility for LLP and Douglass may be why their offensive output has declined
6) Lack of confidence; this team is talented enough to be in the tournament, but they don't seem to have the confidence to grit games out or pull away when they need to
Bottom line: I think last years team was probably worse than the results indicated and I think this team is better than the results so far. Beilein shouldn't be in question. The team has improved defensively from earlier in the season and he's made adjustments all over the place. Beilein can't make the boat load of open jumpers that have been missed, but he has given this team the opportunity to succeed and they've literally missed the mark.
January 27th, 2010 at 1:13 PM ^
The big difference between football and basketball is that one or two players in basketball can really control the fortunes of your team, while in football that tends to not be the case, or at least not to such an extreme extent (I know, Sheridan at QB, walk-on safety, etc.).
Manny and Sims are very good players but their flaws are magnified because the nature of this team is to lean heavily on them for success. And to an extent, Beilein has allowed this to occur because those were the chips he inherited. Next year, with Sims gone and (maybe) Manny, the team will have to buy more into the true Beilein system, which is all about ball movement, kick-outs, and shooting reasonably well from beyond the arc. It relies less on a single star or two and more on the team hitting jumpers. Right now, of course, those jumpers are not falling, but that seems unlikely to continue considering the types of players that are being recruited and the nature of the offense. But from the (admittedly) few games I've caught, the offense looks like "throw it to Sims and let him work inside" or "let Manny run around with the ball and either drive and get a foul or shoot a 35-footer with 20 seconds on the clock."
Last year's team probably overachieved a bit, riding some early-season wins to the NCAA tournament even though they scuttled a bit down the stretch. But unlike in football, teams fortunes can turn around very quickly with one or two new recruits, and right now next year's team will be younger but also arguably better suited for the Beilein system. I'm not giving up on the guy yet because of his track record. Last year's team set unrealistic expectations for this season, but this team is playing like its talent - can play with anyone in the country, but stubs their toes far more than you like.
January 27th, 2010 at 1:33 PM ^
No. Even though there has been disapointment. He did still get Michigan to the Tourney last year for the first time in 11 years
January 27th, 2010 at 1:42 PM ^
If Bellien ever starts feeling any pressure I just want him to handle it better then Tom Crean on the sidelines of an Indiana game.
January 27th, 2010 at 6:33 PM ^
Belien does not feel pressure concerning job security.
Horford IMHO is a more important recruit than Ziegler. We really need size and rebounding.
Next years front court could very well be Smotrycz, Horford and Novak