all sign a petition saying that we find the name offensive. Imagine if every fan who hated ND signed. There would be like 100 million names
to play football, not to play trumpet
all sign a petition saying that we find the name offensive. Imagine if every fan who hated ND signed. There would be like 100 million names
More like 100 trillion!
(for some reason I said this in my head in a Zoolander voice...)
It's all ridiculous.. They change the names of all of these teams, so they can appease three annoying people who have nothing else better to do than complain....
the wolverine population may be getting offended lately... I think we should re-consider what we're doing to the image and the feelings of the wolverines... poor little guys
it involves who complains. I'm not sure if the Sioux complained, but enough Native Americans have requested changes from similar school mascots that they almost have to make it universal without express permission from the tribe. Until/unless the Irish complain about ND's mascot, the NCAA wouldn't touch it. Partly because it's Notre Dame, yes, but I would think unless someone affected has an issue with it, the NCAA is going to interfere as little as possible. It helps that ND is well-known/respected enough that most people aren't going to mind their heritage being associated with it.
The Sioux didn't complain. One tribe voted that it was OK and the other tribe's bylaws don't allow them to vote on it.
Flysociety3, I'm with you. I'm not seriously saying they should change ND's name. It's ridiculous that they try to change any team's name.
Being Irish I am offended. They need to change their name to the Drinking Irish.
I think they should be changed to the souless gingers.
Here's the difference: The Sioux weren't the founders of North Dakota, the Seminoles didn't start Florida State and the Chippewas weren't the first students at Central Michigan. All of these schools were founded by white people who chose aggressive Indian tribes (albeit the local ones) as their mascot.
Irish Catholics actually founded the University of Notre Dame. To this day, a large number of the students at ND are Irish, and Irish people across the country identify with Notre Dame, whether or not they have any actual ties to the university. This is a major distinction, and is likely the reason why they don't hear anything about it.
Notre Dame was founded by French priests (hence its name).
liked his Murphy's stout, though, so you know, Irish in spirit.
The French preists did not select the mascot, however. The point is not who founded the universities in question, but who picked their mascots.
But it is worth pointing out how incongruous it is that the representatives of the Université de Notre-Dame du Lac are called the "Fighting Irish." The school's nickname does not reflect its French heritage.
They choose that name because who ever heard of the Fighting French.
I regret that I can only +1 for that comment.
And the Surrendering French just didn't have the right ring to it.
But that's who they are. Is it right for them to be duplicitous? (And should a religious school really be "Fighting" anything?)
not funny, and it didn't even rhyme.
Is that a reference to post-op ladyboys?
Or just boys with bodymods in general?
But, history books have really not done a very good job portraying just how much the Irish were hated when they got here. The only similarity I see today is the illegal Mexicans that stream across the border.
There were even anti-irish groups that were very similar to the Klan who's job was to terrorize the Irish immigrants often on behalf of the mining companies. My 3x great-grandfather's grave had a marker on it that family had always thought was a medal placed there by an Irish heritage group.
My father looked it up and found out that it was instead a calling card of the anti-Irish group. Sorta like burnt crosses in yards for the Klan.
This is an epic fail...and oddly appropriate for the university being discussed.
Good point WolvinLA2.
I am Irish BTW, but do not feel offended by Notre Dame's nickname. I think it is funny and accurate, in my case anyways. I'm known to have a short temper.
Also Irish, I am more insulted by the endless stream of supposidly Irish bars with neon green shamrocks everywhere. A true Irish bar should be dark and smokey (so if your wife comes in looking for you you will have time to hide before her eyes adjust) and serve good whiskey. Being Irish, and being well versed in the Irish immigrants of the 1800s and early 1900s faced, I would still not compare them to the struggles of Native Americans, though. Although no one posting on this board actually participated in the attempted genocides of the various tribes, I still find it repugnant to suggest that the same culture that spent a century trying to eliminate Native Americans suddenly were 'honoring' them with these nicknames.
But the two situations seem drastically different to me. Native American mascot names were largely selected by, like, white people who thought that having a war-like, fightin'-type of mascot would be cool, right? Notre Dame's mascot was selected by, I am assuming, a bunch of Irish Catholic dudes. Makes a difference in how offensive something is, right?
Really. Why stop there? A job left undone, if you ask me.
You could make a similar argument for thousands of mascots/nicknames. The point is is that these nicknames often have no true association to the group they represent.
I really don't know where I was going to go with this since I somewhat proved my own point wrong, so I guess I'll just reference what was already said and that is that you don't see very many Irish groups offended by the nickname and until they are you won't see Notre Dame changing.
That's quite sad in my opinion. I can't imagine how I would feel if Michigan had to change their nickname.
When Miami was forced to change from Redskins to Redhawks it was very disconcerting. I still think redhawk is a lame mascot.
As opposed to Miami's former nickname, Redhawks is one million times better. Their former nickname is disgusting.
Well what about the Ragin' Cajuns of UL-Lafayette? Sounds pretty aggresive to me
I heard that members of the local Sioux tribe were fine with the name and favored them keeping it.
Not sure where I heard this, but I think it was on Dan Patrick's radio show.
The "fighting Irish" nickname came from a Union civil war brigade of Irish Americans that carried that name. The priest attached to that brigade, including during their involvement at Gettysburg, later became the President of Notre Dame and dubbed the sports teams with that name in honor of the brave men he served with in the Civil War. I think there is a difference...
Probably not the true story given the myriad other stories attached to the name, but even if it is, the logo is a stubby leprechaun caricature. If the NCAA thinks two simple feathers are "hostile and abusive" (W&M) then surely a caricature is, yes?
Well, there are identical statues, one on the battlefield at Gettysburg and one on the Notre Dame campus, commemorating the priest and are inscribed with references to the "fighting Irish" brigade. I live near Gettysburg and have seen them both. Whatever else got attached to the name along the way, that is actually the origin.
None the less, and I can't believe i am now defending the domers in any way, but a leprechaun is not a caricature of an Irish guy. Leprechauns are mythical figures in Irish folk lore.
If that were the origin, you'd think the ND website itself would say so, but they don't even mention it as a possibility:
The most generally accepted explanation is that the press coined the nickname as a characterization of Notre Dame athletic teams, their never-say-die fighting spirit and the Irish qualities of grit, determination and tenacity. The term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution. Notre Dame alumnus Francis Wallace popularized it in his New York Daily News columns in the 1920s.
The Notre Dame Scholastic, in a 1929 edition, printed its own version of the story:
"The term 'Fighting Irish' has been applied to Notre Dame teams for years. It first attached itself years ago when the school, comparatively unknown, sent its athletic teams away to play in another city ...At that time the title 'Fighting Irish' held no glory or prestige ...
"The years passed swiftly and the school began to take a place in the sports world ...'Fighting Irish' took on a new meaning. The unknown of a few years past has boldly taken a place among the leaders. The unkind appellation became symbolic of the struggle for supremacy of the field. ...The team, while given in irony, has become our heritage. ...So truly does it represent us that we unwilling to part with it ..."
I don't know how old the statue at Notre Dame is, but I'd bet on that explanation being a backdated one.
And the leprechaun itself may be an Irish legend, but the team isn't called the Leprechauns, and that leprechaun looks absolutely nothing like the actual Irish legend of one; it looks like the American stereotype the same way Chief Wahoo looks like the American stereotype of an Indian.
Understand I'm not arguing that ND should drop the nickname, just that the NCAA's arguments for forcing out Fighting Sioux all apply in spades to Notre Dame, and they're raging hypocrites for not acting on it.
The obvious difference is money and influence. Notre Dame has it; William & Mary doesn't.
Imagine if other schools had named their mascots after the local indigenous population. The we'd have the OSU White Trash Truckers.
Or the UGA Racist Rednecks
That was awesome.
I'd cheer for the University of Miami Geriatric Retirees.
Unfortunately, they are not native. All immigrant snow birds.
Changing only nicknames referring to Native Americans while leaving those that refer to other groups is politically correct hypocritical racist nonsense.
The best answer would be to tell the overly sensitive imbeciles protesting nicknames to %^&*& off and get a life.
As a Norwegian-American, I am not offended by the numerous Viking nicknames and anybody offended by other ethnic nicknames is an idiot.
The double standard is seriously offensive not the nicknames.
I'm native american. The caricatures they use of us are racist. I haven't heard about this country taking viking land to build a university. But, that's what happened to us. So, if we don't want you to use our faces as your mascot... fucking deal with it and pick an animal mascot a-hole.
As if the attempted genocide wasn't enough, now I have to be associated with shitty teams like North Dakota, Cleveland Indians, and Washington Redskins...
S'not as if the Irish didn't face their share of discrimination around here either. "No Irish Need Apply"....and if someone tells me I have apologizing to do because some of my ancestors were French explorers that killed an Indian or fifty, then the Irish side of me will be waiting to hear from an Englishman.
Check out #2 on the list:
The plight of the Irish in the U.S. just doesn't equal the plight of American Indians. The Irish were discriminated against for a time. American Indians were almost wiped off the continent...Also, I don't think anyone is saying that anyone needs to apologize. The issue is that some American Indians don't like the use of some American-Indian-based names. People should be called what they want to be called. If my neighbors are the Johannsons, I don't call them the Johnsons. I also don't caricature them and use their likenesses without their permission.
"caricature them and use their likenesses without their permission" but i made some fat cash doing exactly that.
Yeah but Indians got casinos and that sweet starring role in that commercial about not littering. So it's all square right???
The guy in that commercial was Italian! What a dong punch to us Indians...
Uh, if you'd watched hockey recently you'd know that the Fighting Sioux aren't a "shitty team."
You think the double standard is Ok??
You apparently buy into all the politically correct victimology BS. You think the caricatures of Native Americans are racist but what about the caricatures of other ethnic groups??? Do you really think that all Irish-Americans are flattered by the caricature of a little Irish man with his dukes up?? Do you really think that all Scandinavian-Americans are flattered by the caricatures of war-like Vikiings with horned helmets and axes?? I suspect not. But they aren't easily offended by silly nicknames meant to HONOR them. They understand there are REAL issues to deal with. They also understand that being offended is a small price to pay for a free society.
As for all the BS about people taking Native American land to build Universities. Give me a friggin break. Do you really think that the entire hemisphere actually belongs to Native Americans and that other groups have no right to live here?? All throughout history, one group has invaded another group and taken land. Using your logic, all land is stolen and no universities should be built.
As for "attempted genocide," again give me a friggin break. There was no systematic attempt to completely eliminate Native Americans. Using your logic, almost all ethnic groups can claim "attempted genocide" at one point or another. The treatment of Native Americans was a huge atrocity but was not "attempted genocide." But that's beside the point. This history is not particularly relevant to the issue of school nicknames - they are meant to HONOR a group, not demean it.
Stop living in the past and start looking at people as individuals instead of racial groups.
that everything is so black and white to people like you.
context means nothing to you i guess. just that since two groups are represented by stereotyped mascots they are equally offensive.
yea the treatment of native americans was really comparable to that of irish people in this country.
maybe if you picked up a book once in a while you could read about such tragedies as the wounded knee massacre or the trail of tears. last i recall, millions of irish people weren't killed as the result of western settlers.
but go on with your "omg i'm tired of PC" bullshit
Have you been so utterly brainwashed by pc groupthink that you can't think for yourself?
How are the past misfortunes of different groups at all relevent to silly nicknames meant to HONOR these groups?
By the way, according to Wiki, about 45,000 Native Americans and 19,000 Whites were killed directly or indirectly in the Indian Wars over more than a century. The Irish Famine killed up to 1 million people over 5 years.
So please stop all the pc victimology BS.
calling their football teams ugly things these days?
I'm pretty sure that the potatoes are pissed about the Washington Redskins...
people die due to man-made food shortages.
And you joke about it.
Ha, ha, ha....
I guess it's ok to laugh if it's not about a "disadvantaged minority."
that you're being completely disingenuous? you sound like you're 17 and have spent those years being vigorously lied to by people you trust.
And, of course, the Irish Famine was directed by the United States government, wasn't it?
your point is???
The US government fought a number of conflicts with Native Americans but did not have any formal policy to eradicate Native Americans. These conflicts were a natural and tragic result of a clash of different cultures, one nomadic and one agrarian, one more primitive and one more advanced.
90-95% of the decline in the Native American population was due to natural causes, namely infectious disease.
My point is that the Irish, and almost all other groups, have just as much right (probably more) to claim "victimhood" as Native Americans. But they don't live their lives as "victims."
"...but did not have any formal policy to eradicate Native Americans"
You mean EXCEPT for all the official formal policies to eradicate Native Americans? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm). SEE BELOW
"90-95% of the decline in the Native American population was due to natural causes, namely infectious disease."
Actually it was around 60%. The 90% figure is only for the area most hard hit by disease.
In the early 18th century, the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey promoted a genocide of their local Natives by imposing a "scalp bounty" on dead Indians. "In 1703, Massachusetts paid 12 pounds for an Indian scalp. By 1723 the price had soared to 100 pounds." 10 Ward Churchill wrote: "Indeed, in many areas it [murdering Indians] became an outright business." 6 This practice of paying a bounty for Indian scalps continued into the 19th century before the public put an end to the practice. 10
In the 18th century, George Washington compared them to wolves, "beasts of prey" and called for their total destruction. 4 In 1814, Andrew Jackson "supervised the mutilation of 800 or more Creek Indian corpses" that his troops had killed. 6
Extermination of all of the surviving natives was urged by the Governor of California officially in 1851. 4 An editorial from the Rocky Mountain News in Denver, CO in 1863; and from the Santa Fe New Mexican in 1863 expressed the same sentiment. 6 In 1867, General William Tecumseh Sherman said, "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux [Lakotas] even to their extermination: men, women and children." 6 "
You're immune to reason.
You list a number of states which had policies encouraging the killing of Native Americans DURING a conflict with Native Americans. First of all, these are states not the US government as I indicated in my statement. Second of all, in most armed conflicts, there are policies which encourage the killing of adversaries.
You also list a number of statements by individuals but NO FORMAL US POLICY advocating the eradication of Native Americans.
You even admit that most of the decline (90-95% according to my sources) in the Native American population was due to natural causees.
These do not add up to "attempted genocide."
You even omit the barbarities committed by Native Americans. This included the uniform policy of murdering all prisoners who were not of value to them, the prolonged torture and even cannibalism of prisoners and the routine murder of women and children. These barbarities understandably encouraged anger toward Native Americans and even similar atrocities. This understandable anger included hateful anti-Native American declarations as you cited.
You omit instances where Whites were convicted and even executed for the murder of Native Americans. You also omit the attempts to assimilite Native Americans into US society - misguided and even grossly immoral efforts at times but not genocidal.
Were Native Americans victims of systematic cruelities and atrocities? Yes. But they weren't victims of genocide.
I would encourage you to use less arrogance and more balance and objectivity.
But I suspect this will fall on deaf ears.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
"...not the US government"
In the early 18th century there WAS no U.S. government, so yeah, they were silent on the issue at that time.
There is no better example of being brainwashed by groupthink than the argument that people who object to offensive and appropriated nicknames have been brainwashed by groupthink.
The truth is you don't want to understand the counterargument to your argument. You just want to discount any disagreement with your position as a simple case of PC victimology BS.
If you can't see why white people using white-invented names for and images of socially, economically, and forcibly subordinated dark skinned people is different from white people using names for and images of THEIR OWN GROUP, then I don't think anything I can say will change your mind.
would be impressed by your doublethink.
I'm advocating the non-pc independent view which is the exact opposite of pc groupthink. I think independently rather then spewing views that are spoonfed to me - unlike yourself.
To borrow a Jack Nicholson line, you can't handle the truth.
You're too caught up in your black and white, us versus them, view of the world to realize there are a lot of grays. It's not about "white people" and "dark skinned people." It's about human beings - whatever shade of tan they may be. Silly nicknames honoring any group of people are not inherently racist or wrong. Period. The small minority of people who are so caught up in "racial identities" that they are easily offended by these nicknames are ridiculous and society should not let their intolerance overrule the rest of society.
Thanks for the insight.
Maybe I shouldn't.... but what does the Irish potato famine have to do with any of this?
It was a few more than 45,000 all in all... you are off by a factor of 400. While the exact number is in dispute, it ain't 45,000.
Here's an academic analysis of the subject:
90-95% of the decline in the Native American population was due to natural causes, most notable infectious disease. While there were conflicts between Europeans and Native Americans, the indirect and direct deaths from these conflicts numbered in the tens of the thousands (Wiki gives an estimate of 45,000 Native American deaths from American-Indian wars). At the same time, about 19,000 Europeans died in these conflicts - including many women and children and many horribly tortured or murdered when taken prisoner. This was a tragic clash of civilizations, with atrocities on both sides, but there was no "attemped genocide" and no formal US policy to eradicate Native Americans.
Available data doesn't even remotely support the labeling of these conflicts as "genocide" under the UN Genocide Convention.
in north dakota's case i think they should keep their nickname for the reasons most have mentioned.
i took issue with your comparison of scandanvian, irish, etc mascots with many native american mascots that some do find offensive, and your justifying that with saying that the treatment of irish people and native americans were comparable.
45,000? wow, just please properly educate yourself.
and yes the founders of this country were at fault for the irish famine
See my last above post and educate yourself.
Along with being Native American, I'm also an Historian. There was attempted genocide, you are wrong. Train of tears, blankets laced with small pox, 7th calvary killing all members of villages. Those are examples (ie proof). Why do you think they put bounties on buffalo? To take away our food supply, thus killing us!
Pssst... that's attempted genocide.
Ahem, "trail" of tears.
My second to last post above and educate yourself.
Or just read the following academic analysis:
There were numerous atrocities on both sides. 90-95% of the decline in the Native American population was due to natural causes, most notably infectious disease.
A good historian tries to be objective.
The article you cite says:
"It is thought that between 75 to 90 percent of all Indian deaths resulted from these killers." (disease)
"Still, even if up to 90 percent of the reduction in Indian population was the result of disease, that leaves a sizable death toll caused by mistreatment and violence. Should some or all of these deaths be considered instances of genocide?"
Yet you continue to say 90-95%. Objective indeed!
There was another source that gave the 90-95% number. Incomplete data makes it impossible for any number to be precise. Whatever number one uses, it is clear that the decline in the Native American population was mainly due to natural causes and not genocide.
The article does go on to look at the accepted definition of genocide and concludes that genocide did not occur.
But we're splitting hairs here.
The historical treatment of Native Americans was criminal and heinous.
Going back to the original issue - it seems reasonable to routinely let students vote on whether to keep a disputed nickname. If it fails because it's stupid, silly or in poor taste (which most ethnic nicknames are), then change it. But don't let a vocal few intolerant individuals decide.
I think it would be more precise to describe the U.S. government's goal to have been "ethnic cleansing" rather than "genocide." The government was most interested in the land. Whether the Indians lived or died after the takeover was of secondary importance.
Tell me you don't see a difference in the portrayals here...
Plus, the decendents of nordic peoples in this country weren't hunted, slaughtered, and herded onto reservations. The Irish had a hard time getting a job... Indians had 97% of their land taken away. Methinks we're earned the right to be sensitive.
If a school wants to honor my (admittedly small percentage) ancestors in a respectful way in conjunction with the local tribe, then that's cool with me. But I don't think it's asking a lot that they not be mocked as savages.
examples does not prove a point. The Cleveland Indian mascot is goofy but so is the Fighting Irish mascot. Many Native American mascots are similar to the Viking mascot you chose. I also suspect some Viking mascots are not as dignified. Your examples suggest that some goofy mascots should be changed but does not suggest that all ethnic nicknames should be banned.
As for the Irish, they suffered terribly at the hands of the English who basically settled this country - the "potato famine" wasn't a natural event but an English-made event. Your claim that Indians had 97% of their land taken is pure BS unless you buy the idea that only Native Americans have a right to live in this hemisphere - they didn't even believe in land ownership. Sure, Scandinavians escaped attack for the most part - mainly because they lived in a frigid wasteland that nobody wanted to invade. But all this talk about victimhood is irrelevant. Whether one's ancestors suffered shouldn't confer any special rights. It especially isn't relevent when nicknames are used to HONOR a group - there's no mockery intended.
context, baby. after the Irish were done suffering at the hands of the English, many of them attended Notre Dame and participated in the creation of the mascot. it has evident acceptance amongst many of the Irish Catholics i've met and unless i'm very much mistaken there's almost no outrage from the Irish who immigrated here and their descendants. additionally, afaik, no one in Ireland cares at all what an American university's football mascot is named. aren't we agreed that an ethnic group can appropriate its own name however it pleases? and isn't that what's at issue? like Marlo says: my name is my name. there are plenty of actual Native Americans who take issue with the idea that who they are should be appropriated for profit. if we can't even own our names, what kind of property rights are there?
by the same logic, if nobody is taking issue, then there isn't a problem. but i'm guessing since there's a dude in this thread who takes issue and with sufficient anger, that's probably a decent indication of where things stand there.
as for this idea that it's done "in honor" of the group in question, doesn't the honoree have a say in what's in his honor? if you're really honoring something, you care about what they think of the honor. which is what makes the Cleveland Indians mascot so evidently not about honor. beyond that though, have you ever seen Peter Pan? have you ever read any Rudyard Kipling? where do you honestly think folks from 1850-1950 were on the scale of racist to not racist? "Noble savage" isn't the highest honor you can bestow on someone, believe that.
Agreed on all counts, but you're wasting your time.
I think most people are in agreement that the Sioux are not opposed to the mascot and the NCAA rules that force that particular mascot change are unfortunate. That said, please stop the stupid meme that most American Indian nicknames are used as an honor. The Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians were not named as an honor.
People who complain about political correctness seem to think that there's no common sense about respecting others opinions and that you have to change as soon as one person complains in order to be PC.
Here's how it works: for the Vikings--if Vikings were making a big stink about the nickname then I'd probably support changing the nickname as well. However, they're not so I don't care. Ditto the Fighting Irish. There are a decent number of American Indians who are offended by many of the mascots; fine, I think about it and judge that it's reasonable that they're offended, so I think that the mascots should be removed (in a reasonable way that allows the Seminoles to remain the Seminoles since apparently they're not offended).
and I couldn't care less. Kind of like how most Native Americans really don't care, and even prefer to be called Indians (Learned that one in History class when the GSI saw the obvious effort to use "Native Americans" in out essays).
Honestly, only a few people really care about most of these cases. I'm pretty sure that the Trojans wouldn't care if they found out that thousands of years later, their namesake would be a widespread mascot, and I don't think most modern groups, be it Seminoles, Irish, or whatever, really care that much either. There are obvious exceptions to this, but particularly in cases such as Florida State or North Dakota, I really don't see why there should be an upheaval over something like this.
Maybe I'm just not easily offended and don't perceive why other people are. I did grow up bullied, and I do make fun of French people despite part French. Honestly though, if I started a civilization, I would find it quite awesome to be mascotted so long as I wasn't made out like the Cleveland Indians (Which would be one of those aforementioned exceptions).
Edit: Also, for the record, I am part Native American as well as German. I have no idea what kind of ratios I have going or what else there is on due to my family's history of not caring about their spouses race, but at minimum I know that a couple generations up on my dad's side there were some German immigrants, a French explorer, and a Native American woman involved.
The fact that the tribes have, where they could do so, voted to allow them to keep their mascots, maybe?
Also, because as far as I'm aware, all of the tribes involved in the NCAA actions have actually wanted the name of the tribe used.
Shouldn't NCAA ban "Fighting Irish"
Works for me
It's true. As an american of Dutch descent, I am offended by the Hope College "Dutchman" mascot. The way he's tall and stingy and uses all kinds of coupons every time he goes to Aldi seems incredibly racist and insensitive.
/s, but as far as the Fighting Irish or native american mascots, shouldn't this just be taken on a case by case basis? Some are maybe more offensive than others, but I would think that most of the time people who hear one of these nicknames or attend of these schools rarely think about the implications of them. It's important to be careful, but it's also possible to be too careful. People are getting a little too sensitive these days.
Amen Block M. These people bitching about mascot names or some posters claiming they are offended because they are of irish,indian,nordic, whatever else American. Most if not all are at least 5 generations removed from their "mother" land and only claim to be whatever they are on holidays or when they are offended on behalf of their people. Let me get this straight because you are 15% indian you speak on behalf of all indian tribes? What does the other 85% of you think? So relax Chief He-Who-Sits-On-High horse and believe me when I tell you when I see an Indian mascot I don't think, look at that blood crazed indian,I see only the mascot of Cleveland's baseball team.
"relax Chief He-Who-Sits-On-High horse"
Yeah, we should all be as open-minded and grounded as you are. Clearly you have no racial/cultural biases directed at Native Americans. I love when the case for one side in a debate is made so clearly and unambiguously by the other side...
Honestly I don't and yeah I agree that was maybe a bit much. Both my parents were adopted so I honestly don't know my cultural background and everyone asks me don't I want to know what I am? My question is, is it that big of a deal? To me it is not but I guess had I known what I was from the start maybe there would be a stronger bond to that culture.
I am generations away from the "motherlands" but I take great pride in my ancestry and I don't think that is foolish or phony. I appreciate that it isn't important to you but that is you and you shouldn't assume that how you feel about something is how everyone should feel. I think if we all step back from the hyperbole we might be better able to accept that when someone says that they are offended by something, they just might genuinely and legitimately be offended.
I was hoping it wouldn't come to this. There are so many jacked up things about what you said. 1st) I am very much an Indian and involved in my native community. 2nd) your "chief he who.... is so ill informed it makes by want to break your face. 3rd) if all you think of is the Cleveland Indians mascot, does that not pose a problem to you?
Please talk about a subject in which you are more educated, because this 1 isn't your forte...
Agreed, and sorry for offending you bud. Though you won't get to punch me in the face something tells me karma is going to get me for you. Sorry again and I will exit this topic.
As devil's advocate, why should we have to get permission from the representative group in order to use the likeness as a nickname? Especially if, say, the logo didn't display any likeness, and North Dakota only ever used the ND logo. Nobody's ever asked a member of the boilermakers' union what they think, and why should they? There's no need to go get permission from mariners, rangers, twins, Texans, senators, cowboys, what have you.....why Indians?
Let's make a deal: if a large number of Texans start complaining, then we'll talk about it. Until then, we can leave it alone. If a sizeable minority of senators vote to have the name changed, then we'll talk about it. Otherwise we can let it be.
Why Indians? Because a decent number of American Indians don't like it.
I guess that's my question: why should we care if they like it or not? Or as a corollary, if it's only a minority that's offended then when did we start having minority rule in this country?
Well, not minority rule but majority rule with rights for the minority which is sort of what we're talking about here except that it has nothing to do with the government. What we're actually talking about is how an organization behaves and the NCAA is allowed to behave how it chooses if it follow the law; I don't see anything wrong with the NCAA choosing to be respectful of others.
And while mascots are very, very (VERY!) different, the "if it's only a minority" has obviously been argued in many unfortunate situations in this country's past, so obviously at some point minority rights are extremely important. So I'm guessing you don't disagree with minority rights, the only argument we should have is how far those extend.
No, I don't disagree with minority rights, but when it comes to finding things offensive, I'm not sure anyone has rights. If we removed all things from this world that a minority of people found offensive, there'd be a tremendous shortage of things to do.
very few spend time away from their jobs and families to take up a cause that won't pay them anything back to discuss with the public why they are offensive. the ones that do are probably worth paying attention to. i don't see what's wrong with a Sanity Clause, but it's hard to see how anything that's happened to Native Americans since white folks came over as "complaining". there's a pretty obvious legitimate grievance. basically, i take issue with the idea that there are a billion different groups trying to ban this or that cultural norm. only the crazy and the actually aggrieved would ever try to do that...and i don't think there's that many actual crazy folks.
Colin said it well: you don't have to stop everything once any random person speaks up. If a lot of people are speaking up you should probably listen and use common sense judgement. Two questions to consider asking yourself and my answers to them in this case:
Is it reasonable that some are insulted by this? IME, clearly yes in some cases: using an insulting name and sometimes insulting fake dances/traditions. Obviously, some are less insulting than others but without explicit support, I think they're all harmed by the association with the others and history of the insulting American Indian mascots.
Is there a reasonable way to solve this? Yes, it's really not that hard to get a new mascot; it's appropriate to the size of the insult.
I don't get why anyone is specifically offended by the "Fighting" part. I mean, this is a sport we're talking about here people. You know, an activity that involves competition. I guess you could just call them "Irish" or "Sioux" but clearly these teams are not going to be named "The Passive Irish." I don't think there's any intent to imply that a people are violent and aggressive.
"I guess you could just call them "Irish" or "Sioux" but clearly these teams are not going to be named "The Passive Irish." "
Actually you can't. The NCAA wanted to ban the "Seminoles" name and that didn't include the word "fighting".
As a person of Irish decent, I have no objection to the characterization of the Irish as being passionate and scrappy.
I do have an objection to Notre Dame usurping that characterization for their own evil purposes....
And as a person of Native American decent I have no problem with the use of any tribe name, the name "Indians", the word "fighting", the name "red skins" or any of those names. It's just a nickname and it's not worth getting worked up over. There are so many more important things in life.
All I know is that as a white person I am offended by Cracker Barrel.
If I recall correctly, Beaners had to change their name to Beansters because it offended Mexican Americans.
I think we would all agree that any Native American related mascot has the potential to offend. To keep things fair to all parties, it is best to ban any team from using such a mascot. However probelms will arise if the NCAA goes after other teams.
"All I know is that as a white person I am offended by Cracker Barrel."
Do you actually know what a "cracker" is? I have a feeling that you'd be surprised to learn that Florida State ALMOST picked "Crackers" over "Seminoles". I have a feeling that you'd be more surprised to find out that very few people in Florida, of any ethnicity, would have any problem with it at all.
Maybe in Florida they're ok with it. There it was used to describe the cattle herders cracking their whips. However, other parts of the south attribute it to the white plantation owners cracking their whips on the slaves. I don't think anyone in this day and age would want that description attributed to them.
I should have put a sarcasm disclaimer in my post. I find political correctness absolutely ridiculous sometimes. For some companies or schools to change their names due to perceived prejudice towards a certain group (Beaners) is stupid. They brew coffee using coffee beans, hence Beaners. I realize I'm being insensitive, but I think some people take things to an extreme.