And I will tell you for sure.
Leaning towards it now.
And I will tell you for sure.
Leaning towards it now.
Yes. It sounds like you usually think that a player needs to stay three years.
This was brought up a few months ago and most people said he needed to stay another year to be "elegiable" is the only reason I make that point
It's Latin for "eligible".
it was discovered that most any player deserving of having his jersey hung in the rafters isn't likely to stay for 3 years.
It seems as though he should be "elegiable" only if we lose and he does leave early...
... that is, we'll be able to compose elegiac couplets lamenting his departure and recite them for cathartic effect.
The next week will have alot to do with whether his number is in the raptors. I personally think it should be as he represents this program moving to the next level.
I thought the dinosaurs were extinct? Didn't Jeff Goldblum kill them all, y'all?
The number 3 should be IN the raptors..? Interesting. Very interesting.
It's his saying, bitch! Keep your dirty hands off.
I'd be surprised if his number is in the Raptors. They probably won't even have a first round pick this year.
The one with the raptor, Hagerup and then one or two more? I seem to remember there being another absolutely hilarious one in the mix, but can't remember who did the contest.
These were the two best though.
It wasn't nearly as funny, but it was the runaway utility cart that I was thinking of. Still worthy of a laugh, though.
The Bowen's thing was an upset and shouldn't have even made it that far.
His number is more than welcome to hang out with me and my people.
Dude just had the wrong outdoor sport:
Photoshop his face in there, the one right after he hit "the shot", and you have won the interwebs for today.
I think the honor should only go to alumni. He's probably gone after this year, which means he won't graduate now, but there are still ways to finish the degree later.
By this logic, UNC shouldn't hang Michael Jordan's number because he left early for the NBA?
I tend to agree that jerseys should only be retired for players who graduate from that school at some point, even Michael Jordan. Collegiate sports are great, but they are still supposed to be a means to an end which is funding college education.
Michigan has prepared Burke for his dream job, a job with set of requirements other than a college degree. If the point of college is to better yourself and secure opportunities for the future, he and the school have done well by each other. A degree seems like an unnecesarily general standard of evaluating whether someone accomplished what they should have at college.
But we're a school, not just an NBA minor league program. The expectation is that our student-athletes will graduate - maybe not within four years, but eventually. Besides, a big part of the justification for collegiate athletics is that schools prepare them for "going pro in something other than sports," which even most ex-NBA players have to do at some point.
Most of these types of ceremonies aren't held until several years later. By the time Burke would come up in the discussion (there are others ahead of him - Gary Grant comes to mind), he'll have had several offseasons in a row in which he could have gone back and taken courses. For him to come back and finish up his coursework would remove all doubt that he's worthy of jersey retirement.
Besides, a big part of the justification for collegiate athletics is that schools prepare them for "going pro in something other than sports
That statement couldn't have been more false because college athletics is a business disguised as a non-profit entity. I hate this statement because playing college level prepares them for going pro like NFL, NBA, NHL, etc. I can assure you that the top players dont' think about education, they think about the best path to the professional sports league.
is the brand that they create
It's amazing how completely people misunderstand what a university education is supposed to be about. I wish we could get out of the credentialing business and back to teaching people who actually want an education.
But then almost no one would come.
I didn't go to Michigan for an education, I went for a job. I got both, which is great. But if someone told me M would get me a great education but not a great job, I never would have l gone there.
All of that would make the change an unqualified success. Read Academically Adrift. (The assessments and much of the statistical analysis are lame but the general thrust of the book is correct.)
As universities are increasingly becoming expected to provide job training, the end result is going to be that universities provide only job training, and no education at all.
I don't know why wanting to better yourself and secure opportunities for the future is mutually exclusive with wanting an education, but if it is I'd be interested to see enrollment numbers after you get rid of all the people who misunderstand universities.
An annual salary's worth of tuition and stop acting like a big business buidling things, getting grants, researching, influencing politics, and all the other things that are more about $$$ than education and be more like a, you know, school, before people would come there just for that. No one is paying $100,000 over four years to become just a more rounded human being.
Michigan has prepared Burke for his dream job, a job with set of requirements other than a college degree. If the point of college is to better yourself and secure opportunities for the future, he and the school have done well by each other.
The average NBA career is only four years. The NBPA has estimated that 50% (!) of its ex-players become bankrupt within a few years of the end of their NBA careers. Most of these guys will, in fact, need to do something else professionally after their playing days are over.
I think a graduation requirement for jersey retirement is a good incentive for these guys to come back to school and finish their coursework. ("Finish your studies, and your jersey will go up.") They may not need the degree now, but may well later in life. Even if they find a career in basketball, they may need a degree - it's a requirement for virtually any college basketball coaching job, for instance.
Four years in the NBA makes you a millionaire, probably numerous times over. It's not the school's fault if you blow it and go bankrupt. If Burke carves out even a nice career, it just doesn't make sense for him to put in the amount of time required for a degree he'll never use.
New bb facilities, stadium renovations etc etc didn't occur because college sports--okay, football &basketball--are still a means to an end--if you mean a degree. Now if you mean, an income flow, that'd be a different story.
Jordan did graduate from UNC. He went back in the summer and finished his degree. I don't know if UNC raised his jersey before or after that, but I think it's a good policy. They are student-athletes, and if they graduate they're showing that they've performed in the classroom, too.
If our policy is that we don't raise the jersey of any non-graduate, then I don't think we should bend it for anyone. If Burke comes back and graduates, then certainly he'll be worthy of having his jersey in the rafters.
This is where someone points out that alumnus means "a male graduate or former student" and that Trey would qualify as such.
I'm sure there was little doubt that he would graduate, but the fact remains that he was honored before he had his degree.
Being a graduate and being an alumnus are two different things.
And even the University recognizes this-
Madonna dropped out of Michigan, but they still recognize her (I'm sure there are others on the list...that one just was just easy to remember).
If he cuts down the nets in hotlanta it goes 1. Charles Woodson 2. Trey Burke for anyone born in the late 80s/early 90s
.Why are people constantly saying TOO SOON?
The OP wasn't talking about retiring the jersey next year, in 5 years or even in 10. It was just a general question of if it is deserving of being retired with what Burke has accomplished thus far.
It's very simple, "yes," "no," or "yes if he does (insert criteria here)"
Not sure why everyone is saying TOO SOON like the OP was trying to plan a banner ceremony in a couple weeks.
Too soon because in 6 days we'll have 1-3 very important data points to be included in the conversation (two games, one likely award). And if we don't and M fails on Saturday, then we have this same exact conversation. Let's wait until the season is over, at least.
- BIG frosh of the year
- BIG player of the year
- First team all american
- BIG ten champion
- Likely Div 1 player of the year
- Led team to final four and possible ncaa title
That's enough for me. Outside of Cazzie and maybe Rudy T, who comes close? Raise it to the roof after his nba career is coming to a close.
can't forget about that guy in '89
Than the Internet
I'll comment on this when his career is officially over.
IF he wins national player of the year, it should not only be hung but retired. People don't realize that Cazzie's is the only one that is actually retired.
National player of the year winners deserve their number retired.
I thought his number was retired too...
Colton Christian wore #45 when he played here.
There are five numbers in the rafters at Crisler, but only Cazzie's #33 is out of circulation. As recently as last year, Rudy T's #45 was on the floor (Colton Christian).
is his career over?
I hate that this thread exists. There is no question that he deserves his number retired. He's the best MIchigan player in 20 years.
Geesh, the effrontery to suggest that he has to stay four years to "earn" such an honor is pretty mind-blowing. He was an awesome player and an awesome representative of the program. Now he's going to get paid. Good for him.
Ill admit it; I had to look up effrontery.
That's a vomit of an argument.
Sorry to say, but in this day and age of college basketball, Michigan will never retire or hang a players number if they have that requirement. Unless it's players from pre-1990 we're talking about.
All of the elite college players don't play 4 years. That's just how it is.
I guess he is still officially retired.
Sorry to say, but in this day and age of college basketball, Michigan will never retire or hang a players number if they have that requirement.
You know that players can go back to school after they've turned pro, right? It's not like they're expelled when they turn professional. Many pro athletes go back to their college campus during the offseason and finish up their degree work.
Maybe it's just a matter of opinion. I went and looked up some good players whose numbers were and some of them went back and got their degree (MJ in 1986).
Rickey Green deserves his number to be hung first IMO, but people are against it because he was a JUCO transfer. Which is idiotic. A 2 time all-american.
did yost and schembechler graduate from UM? they have buildings and stadiums named after them. yet, great players can't be memorialized w/o a degree? seems a silly argument to me.
Yost and Bo were athletic directors though. All the major athletic buildings are named after former ADs.
I'm for it.
If Trey led this team to two national titles in his two years all these "he has to graduate" bozos would change their tune. Y'all know I'm right
One would be sufficient.
I dont think that we can bar players from getting their jerseys retired or hung just because they didnt play all 4 years. With the way NCAA rules are now, you cant expect players to stay that long, especially the great ones. He's done more for the team in 2 years than nearly all players do in 4, and you cant blame him or punish him if he jumps to the NBA early.
Stu and Zack in that "nearly all"?
Yes. Stu and Zack were incredible assets to the team, but Burke is a whole different level of player. The team would not be where it is today without Burke. Not even close.
next yeat when he is gone. I remember everyone thought D. Morris was the whole team and we were screwed when he left. I am starting to think Belein's system lends itself to great pg play. I guess we will have to see how Walton does. I suspect next year Burke will be on some NBA teams bench and Michigan will be in B1G contention and making a deep tounament run without him.
All that said if he brings home a natty, raise that jersey up. Good programs cant just retire jerseys everytime they reach the the final four
Given the last decade plus of pain and suffering of Michigan B-ball and how far the program has come back, there are certain events that hit you as a fan. Huge win at state when the fire Beilein movement was getting going, Morris's GTFOMC, ranked in top 5 preseason, ranked number 1, sweet 16, elite 8 and a final four bid. With all of that, this question made me step back due to it not being a ridiculous question. Maybe I am still a bit shell shocked from the growth of the program over the past 3 years.
To your actual question, wins the Wooden Award and cut down the nets in ATL, absolutely. If those don't happen, most likely yes. Wins NC this year comes back for 2 more years and wins it all those years too, then name a building after him (hey, a man can dream)
Chris Paul's jersey was recently hung up this year... and correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty sure he left after his sophmore year also. I see no reason why a Big Ten player of the year, consensus First Team All American, and a potential Wooden and Naismath winner would not be hung up in Crisler. I don't think we realize how special a player Burke really is and how much he means to Michigan.
Graduating and playing four years of college basketball are two separate issues. I don't think it should be required for a player to stay four years to have his jersey retired, but I do think he should graduate first.
Chris Paul left Wake eight years ago, so he may have since graduated. There is time in the offseason for these guys to go back to school.
I think it definitely should be provided he wins player of the year. He's already a first team all American who led us to the final four.
When Charles Woodson won the Heisman the current freshman at Michigan were 3-4 years old. Trey Burke is the best player they have ever seen wear a Michigan uniform. I am not saying that makes him worthy of getting his number retired, but thought it was worthy to note to y'all
What's your deal?
You don't have to put it after every comment...
There is nothing wrong with putting your name at the end of your comment.
Kevin Durant had his jersey retired at Texas, he only spent one season there and they lost in the second round of the NCAA tournament.
And that was a stupid decision.
This decision should not be made by comparing to other institutions - especially ones that have far less basketball tradition than the University of Michigan.
Syracuse and Melo?
If Texas and other schools are doing it, Michigan should follow along. We wouldn't want to have different standards than anybody else.
His body of work over the past two seasons isn't enough for you? Are you really suggesting he needs a similar season (which would make him a 2 time wooden award winner) next year before he will have earned the honor?
I think you are confusing our program with one that has had success over the past 20 years.
You can't play more than four years. Is there anyone since Duke of the late 80's-early 90's who would even qualify?
If you have to graduate to be eligible to have your jersey hung, then I don't know that we will ever see it happen at Michigan again. In this day and age, anyone talented enough to win POY and lead team to national championship just do not stick around for 4 years.
Unless they win POY and a title in their senior year.....
It's an interesting mix of players/year:
|2001–02||Jay Williams||Duke||Point guard||Junior|
|2002–03||T. J. Ford||Texas||Point guard||Sophomore|
|2003–04||Jameer Nelson||Saint Joseph's||Point guard||Senior|
|2005–06||J. J. Redick||Duke||Shooting guard||Senior|
|2006–07||Kevin Durant||Texas||Small forward||Freshman|
|2007–08||Tyler Hansbrough||North Carolina||Power forward||Junior|
|2008–09||Blake Griffin||Oklahoma||Power forward||Sophomore|
|2009–10||Evan Turner||Ohio State||Small forward||Junior|
|2010–11||Jimmer Fredette||BYU||Point guard||Senior|
Though it looks like if you want to win as a senior you either have to be a small school guy who takes the nation by storm but has almost zero chance of winning the title, or go to Duke.
He is just Michigan's eighth consensus All-American, has led us to a Final Four and possibly more, and will in all liklihood will be the National Player of the Year. If that doesn't qualify him, what would?
Hanging the jersey isn't a question. Maybe retiring the number is but I think that's a yes too. He has all his individual achievments but he meant more to the program than just that. Hopefully his jersey would be the representation of a new era.
I think we are fooling ourselves if we think player of the years will be the norm and is hence to lax a standard. Trey Burke is an exceptional talent and has played an absolutely invaluable role for our programs growth and deserves to be recognized for it.
I good rule of thumb should be that if a player wins the National Player of the year, his jersey is going up in the rafters (assuming decent NBA career and stays "clean"). As I am assuming that any Heisman winner will end up with a Legends Patch.
Now, if we start running out of numbers and room in the rafters, then we can worry about it at that time.
I don't think a player's NBA career should dictate whether or not his number in college is retired, unless of course, as you pointed out, his ability to stay "clean" comes into question.
Trey Burke could go on to have a sub-par NBA career, but it shouldn't diminish what he accomplished here at all. His number would be retired because of what he accomplished here at Michigan, not because of whatever he becomes in the NBA.
I think I can speak on behalf of anyone with more than 500 points on this site, that one would be a fucking fool of a Took to think that his jersey doesn't belong in the rafters.
nobody cares how many points you have. All it takes to get points is to post a lot... conversely I don't think it matters how long you have been on the site either; talking just to talk, or hanging around providing nothing are what a lot of the higher point value people do around here...
Unless you're against retiring numbers in general, I don't see how you can argue against retiring Burke's number. He WILL be national POY, and at a minimum he led this team to the Final Four. I don't even care about leaving after two years, and I'm someone who believes adamantly in players staying and finishing their degrees. Burke has already done everything he can for his draft stock, it will never rise higher. If he comes back, it will only decline (if only slightly) with the possibility of being hurt.
In the end, if Burke's number isn't retired, their really isn't a scenario in which we retire ANY number ever again.
Why are we talking about this already when he still has 2 more years left at Michigan?
I think that he has done enough as a player, but to your point time will tell about how people feel as we get farther removed from The Shot (have we named that yet?). Really, I think how he represents himself and the University over the next 10 years will determine if his jersey ends up hanging in the rafters. But it is fun now to discuss as we are all trying to kill time until Saturday.
Why did you click on it then?
Is that a real question? After he hit "The Shot" it was all but guaranteed. The Final Four makes it a no brainer!
Absolutely. It doesn't matter how long he's been here, it's what he's done while he was here.
and definitely not before Juwan. Getting your degree should mean something, not everything, but definitely something.
Love the kid but no way is he getting his jersey retired
If not Trey, then who? He is like the Desmond Howard of the basketball team. National POY, Big Ten champ, Rose Bowl (Final Four) champ. If he wins the national title, then he's Woodson. Both of those guys left before they graduated.
I don't see why this is a question. There's not much else he can do.
But I'm pretty sure he, like Juwan Howard, graduated.
Would he be any less worthy if he hadn't? If Woodson doesn't come back, should he not get a Legends patch?
Desmond wasn't Rose Bowl Champ. They lost to that steroid/convict Washington championship team. We did beat them the next year, but by then Howard was gone.
Anyone saying he should have to graduate is only saying that because they selfishly want him to stay longer.
Consideration should go to Rickey Green and Gary Grant first, but Burke deserves it as well. 100% yes if we win the NC or he has strong games v Syr and Louisville's strong guards.
Personally I do think his jersey should be hung up. Heck everyone's jersey should be hung up. If you don't hang them up then they'll get all wrinkly and we can't be wearing wrinkly jerseys on TV.
Win the Championship and its a guarantee
For starterrs, I'd just like to see his picture at the top of the blog. Maybe Brian doesn't want to jinx it and is waiting until the season is over.
only if he wins it all in Atlanta.
Michigan Basketball has a requirement that a player finish his degree (whether at Michigan or elsewhere) before his number can be honored. As has already been pointed out, Cazzie's is the only number officially retired, the other four are "honored jerseys."
Keep in mind that it took about ~30 years for Cazzie, Rudy, Phil Hubbard, and Bill Buntin, and 15 for Glen Rice. Trey Burke is a special player, but those guys were, too. Give it time.
I'm sure I'm not the first to say it in this thread, but the answer to the question could become self-evident shortly before midnight next Monday.
Being a soph. I dont fee like he should, but I wouldn't against it.
Trey Burke's accomplishments are being grossly underappreciated by us collectively , I think, because when someone performs at such a consistently high level we take it as an article of faith that he's supposed to perform that way. It makes us a bit spoiled, and I think we tend to get seduced by the seeming importance of the the last thing we saw from him or the next thing he hasn't accomplished yet (and he's running out of those). It makes us lose perspective, and the sentiments go through an echo chamber and thus become more believable, if not exactly credible. To me, stating that his jersey should only be honored if he leads his team to further success this weekend feels similar to waiting to see if your girlfriend becomes a Nobel laureate and a Miss America winner before you decide whether or not you're going to marry her.
As if Trey Burke's greatness and importance to the program is somehow conditioned on whether he graduates. Hey Trey, give away two years of your prime earning capacity or we won't formally acknowledge what you meant to our program!
How about this? Considering he put the program on his back and carried it back to the promised land and was essentially paid in doughnuts to do so, we should retire his number and build him a statue. We owe him that.
Also, Jalen Rose and Juwan Howard should have their numbers retired too. Banners up or down, they weren't accused of anything. And they both graduated, for those who insist that be a prerequisite.
Since the college game has changed and we may never see an elite player stay three or four years again. I say retire his number if we win Monday. It is important financially and for our recruiting image to keep a good relationship with former stars. The worst thing would be for former players to feel disconnected from the team and university.
Brandon already said that you have to have a graduated from there.
But if they want to "honor" a number like they do in football, this is an obvious choice. Maybe not the NEXT choice (Glen Rice says 'Hi, look at my ring!"), but an eventually easy choice.
We do it in football. I think rice should be the first one honored. As for the second, I think one could argue for novak. I do think it would be great to offer it as a carrot to tret that we will honor his number if he comes back and finishes his degree while playing in the nba
I like Zack Novak as much as anyone else, but you can't be serious. Why not Mike Griffin?
He was the leader and most recognizable player during the turnaround years. He bridged the gap from 9-23 to big ten champs.
Yes. He has led the squad to it's first Final Four in 20 years and will win the National Player of the Year. hang it up.