Serious Question - Ron English vs. Scott Schafer/Greg Robinson
I remember our Ron English led defense being pretty good against Florida in Lloyd's last game. I remember thinking that the defense was going to be the reason that we were respectable last season (there wasn't THAT much change in personnel). But instead, in the last two seasons, it has been a huge, huge weakness.
So, the question that I am asking here is this - If Rich Rodriguez had retained Ron English (and some of his defensive assistants). If he would have made Tony Gibson his assistant recruiting coordinator (or something), and Bruce Tall as his special teams coach (or something). How much better (or worse) would this defense be!?
Was a change in defensive philosophy REALLY necessary!? If you're basing your guess on how we looked at the (very) end of Lloyd's last season, it's hard to say yes. Keep in mind that Ron English was an excellent recrutier. Keep in mind that several defensive players that have left probably would have stayed. Keep in mind that he could've really helped Rich Rod adjust to UofM's traditions.
RichRod's offense is already started to flash the potential of what it could be with a true freshman quarterback and a bunch of veterans that don't really fit the system. But his handling of the defensive staff has been nothing short of atrocious to this point. Maybe it will work out eventually, but good Lord. Might have been able to have an Urban Meyer/Charlie Strong thing going here (and I am ONLY saying that because they're both black! lol).
EDIT - hopefully my sarcasm won't be overlooked here.
DOUBLE EDIT - I am NOT saying that Greg Robinson is a bad coach...that he is doing a bad job with what he has to workout, or that he won't eventually working out...i'm just saying that the transition could have been handled better on the defensive side of the ball.
November 14th, 2009 at 2:58 PM ^
English is making a royal screw up of things at Eastern. He already had to play the race card with the alumni.
If he can't run a team used to being the last runner in the MAC, no way he could bring back a sliding Big Ten defense.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:04 PM ^
and gary moeller sucked at illinois.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:05 PM ^
"I remember our Ron English led defense being pretty good against Florida in Lloyd's last game."
Do you also remember how we had more than one scholarship safety?
I realize that's beating a dead horse at this point, but so is trying to postulate that a change in coaching staff would substantially change our results on field.
It's frustrating, and, on a board like this we like to hypothesize about possible solutions, but really the only solution is to give it time.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:05 PM ^
maybe we would have had more if english stayed. chambers. steve brown probably would have stayed there. brandon smith probably would have started there. etc. etc.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:10 PM ^
The name Artis Chambers rings a bell and I should probably know exactly who that is but I don't.
And, we *do* have Smith and Brown, and the coaching staff saw fit to move them to other positions (and then move Smith back just b/c the current safety situation was horrendous.) Brown was not a good safety. But, a LB he has been one of the bright spots on our defense this year, yes?
Sooo... I still don't see how English solves anything at all.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:19 PM ^
There was some controversy back in 2007 because Chambers played on special teams against Penn State when he was ineligible. Nothing ever came of it, though.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:21 PM ^
he started at least one game at safety, at some point, i remember that very clearly.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:09 PM ^
Just from a scheming and game-planning standpoint Gerg is pretty easily the best of the 3 DC's we've had recently. He just doesn't have the players to be effective.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:20 PM ^
what do you mean by recently?
November 14th, 2009 at 4:19 PM ^
Recently: adjective; during a recent period of time
As in Michigan has had 3 DC's recently, and Gerg is the best schemer and game-planner of the bunch.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:25 PM ^
Isn't really reading the whole post. At least I think the point was that we wouldn't have had as much attrition and we would have developed our players more consistently. No one can say we wouldn't have been in a much better postion keeping English, just like no one can say we wouldn't be worse, but I suspect all the factors that the post discuss would have made us at least better.
Great point about last year, the expectation was we were going to be strong defensively last year, but that was not the case and yet the talent was basically the same as the previous year.
I do have to say the one problem with having kept English is that he was discussed as a potential head coach... I think RR had no choice but to clear house if he really wanted to make this his team. Hopefully he at least spoke to English to see whether he was interested.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:40 PM ^
thank you, i agree with everything you say. i think that a lot of the people negging me here didn't read the entire original post. there probably would have been less attrition. there probably would have been less position changes (ala - more safety depth). there probably would have been less confusion. there MIGHT have been better recruiting (ron english could recruit, anyone that denies that is crazy imo). there MIGHT have been some troubles between richrod and ron english. it MIGHT not have been better than gerg in the long run. these mights are what i wanted the discussion to be about. the probablys, imo, are more or less obvious.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:28 PM ^
Keeping English to run the D would be like letting your fiance's ex stand up in your wedding. Like Singletary said, "can't do it."
November 14th, 2009 at 3:41 PM ^
possibly. you might be right. but that has a lot to do with how rich rod and ron english's personalities clashed. hard to say. that's what i'm asking here, partly.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:28 PM ^
I don't see the point of this whole thread. English was a mediocre D coordinator; if he was so good, why didn't he get any good coaching offers? He went to Louisville in '08: here's the stats below
2007: scoring D - #91, total D - #84
2008: scoring D - #88, total D - #70
So yeah, one year and very little improvement. It's about the talent, not the scheme. We have no talent, and no perfect scheme is going to save this D. Keeping English would NOT HAVE eased the transition on D, because English INTERVIEWED for the coaching job, and this would have caused tensions if he stayed around while Rod got the job.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:31 PM ^
We were 89th in total defense before today's game, so English's Louisville defense would actually be a step up from our current D.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:43 PM ^
didn't play Michigan's schedule either.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:42 PM ^
i'm not saying that he WAS great, or that he would've been great. all im saying is that he probably would have better than a new guy in these last two seasons. then, once rich rod got the kind of players he wanted on that side of the ball...he could've brought the kind of coach he wanted in.
would it have better in the short run, yes. would it have been better in the long-run!? i don't know. that's why I asked. good question, imo.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:47 PM ^
"all im saying is that he probably would have better than a new guy in these last two seasons. then, once rich rod got the kind of players he wanted on that side of the ball...he could've brought the kind of coach he wanted in."
Hahahahaha, did you really just write this? So English would run the D for 2 years, and then Rod is just going to come up to English and be like "yo, English, appreciate the work, but I'm firing you so I can have my own guy as a D coordinator." Please, stop while you're ahead of yourself.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:54 PM ^
well...if he did a great job, then he would stay for good reason. if he did a bad job...he couldve taken the job at eastern, moved on to the nfl, moved on to another team. the fans wouldnt have been upset, because he was bad. and the new guy would have inherited a less depleted team.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:38 PM ^
Ron English was a mediocre defensive coordinator who's whole defensive strategy amounted to "Have Ed Reed at safety". He gave Johnny Sears a scholarship as an athlete despite him playing football like twice. He oversaw App State, a D-1AA team putting up 34, repeat THIRTY-FOUR points on a veteran defense. And that was when paired with an NFL offense.
How can anyone give RR/GERG shit about giving up 42 to Wisconsin when Ron English's defenses repeatedly got rocked?
November 14th, 2009 at 3:44 PM ^
he stunk against spread teams. that was his biggest problem here. but richrod definitely could have helped him in that department...as it was rumored he did against florida.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:45 PM ^
So your argument is that he stunk against spread teams, then RR helped him against Florida, and now with GERG, it's just that RR totally forgot how to coach against the spread? It has nothing to do with, IDK, the total lack of talent?
November 14th, 2009 at 3:56 PM ^
read the entire thread. i am not saying that at all. i am actually repeating exactly what you are saying. bringing in shafer (and ultimately robinson) meant that several guys left that might have not otherwise, many guys changed positions that might have not otherwise, we might have missed out on some recruits (english was awesome in that regard). more continuity on that side of the ball, to say the very least, would have resulted in a somewhat better defense.
November 14th, 2009 at 4:02 PM ^
Artis Chambers left. Name another defensive player that left. Chambers wasn't going to set the world on fire either way.
We should be thankful Stevie Brown changed positions, he was god awful at safety and is now excelling at LB.
I can easily say the defense wouldn't have been better. Crable was undisciplined for 4 years. So was Harrison until RR's staff came in. Jacob Stewart was just as bad under RR as English.
November 14th, 2009 at 6:12 PM ^
But was he worse there than Mike Williams? Jordan Kovacs? I don't know...
November 14th, 2009 at 5:05 PM ^
Dude ,K06, are you upbanging yourself? Gross.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:42 PM ^
intensity and his ability to get his players to play with said intensity covered up many of the deficiencies we see today. Namely, Michigan still can't cover a TE or back out of the backfield....or cover a slot receiver with a safety or LB.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:44 PM ^
Right, Chris Graham covered Gonzalez soooo well in 2006 just because of Ron English's intensity.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:45 PM ^
he didn't say that at all. he said that the extra intensity ron english brought to the table covered up weaknesses. like...mike martin being extra fired up and sacking a guy before jonas mouton's blown coverage is exposed. he made a good point, imo.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:52 PM ^
Right, this is totally provable. As opposed to, say, better players making a higher number of quality plays to hide one or two weak players, as opposed to the 4 (2 DB spots, 2 LB spots) we're dealing with right now. I love your unprovable analysis.
November 15th, 2009 at 5:19 AM ^
the same could be said about your analyisis
November 14th, 2009 at 3:44 PM ^
more or less agree with that. forgot to include it in the op. good point.
November 14th, 2009 at 4:55 PM ^
I don't know precisely how defective Michigan's talent on defense is. I don't know how many mistakes Greg Robinson has made this year.
But what I saw in Madison was the most frustrated Rich Rodriguez that I have seen this year, by far. I wouldn't have wanted to be on the reciving end of RR's intercom in the press box. He was in a fury the entire time that we were on defense in the second half. Today is The Most Pissed Off I have ever seen Rich Rodriguez.
Greg Robinson is running nearly half of this team on the field. Irrespective of complaints about our personnel, I don't understand why Michigan's is a defense that should be giving up 500 yards a game. On the other side today, Wisconsin's Chris Borland -- undersized, lightly recruited, and not particularly fast -- might just be the best freshman in the Big Ten.
November 14th, 2009 at 6:46 PM ^
Here's what I've been thinking since the Illinois game. GERG is not a good coordinator. He's just not. And anyone that looks at his track record should know that. Yes, point to Denver and Texas. Yes, realize that Scott Shafer could have won titles with those defenses.
I am not a defensive expert. However, the comments from Syracuse blogs should not be taken lightly. We have to keep GERG next year and that is not a good thing.
November 14th, 2009 at 6:50 PM ^
he was only co-coordinator at texas, and only for a single season. he has been fired from every nfl dc job he has ever had (in many instances, the head coach himself was fired - to grob's defense), including the denver job.
November 14th, 2009 at 8:37 PM ^
Sound much like Abe Lincoln. Maybe Greg Robinson will help lead us to a new birth of big ten dominance.
November 15th, 2009 at 5:21 AM ^
but what does that say about the man who hired him? the man we all need to have blind trust in?
November 14th, 2009 at 8:31 PM ^
edit: I think we should give the TCU dc a call
November 14th, 2009 at 9:48 PM ^
not a bad idea, at all...
http://collegefootball.rivals.com/viewCFSE.asp - that's rivals ranking of defensive coordinators. Dick Bumpas is #4. The other guys on the list all have pretty decent jobs already. His last job was LB coach at Western, so like Shafer, he wouldn't be opposed to the change in climate.
November 15th, 2009 at 5:15 AM ^
i have read numerous times that ron english would have clashed with richrod because he interviewed for the head coaching job....
...and okay i get that. but to think thats a complete impediment is a very myopic view of the situation.
take a look at the pittsburgh stillllllerrrsss after cowher left. dick labeau was a candidate for the hc position yet mike tomlin was hired who, believe it or not, kept dick labueau as a the DC.
im not saying it was a horrible decision to fire english, but firing english, and then subsequently firiing shaffer is on rr. the lack of continuinty is directly on him. the meme of 3 DCs in 3 years happenned, but it didnt neccessarly have to.
typos galore.
November 15th, 2009 at 10:06 AM ^
Jim Herrmann. ;>)))))
November 15th, 2009 at 12:27 PM ^
Can you imagine the potency of a Rodriguez attack with Foster D???
Huge.
November 15th, 2009 at 2:18 PM ^
But why would he leave virginia tech to come here?