Semi-OT: How realignment knocked Notre Dame off its pedestal
Found this ESPN read about how Notre Dame's demand for autonomy has now allowed the conference aligned schools to surpass them.
Of interest, it opens up with an anecdote about Bo's reaction to the Big Ten adding Penn State:
It has been 29 years since Notre Dame won a national championship. It has been 28 years since Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany held a conference call for his athletic directors and told them -- he didn't ask them, he told them -- that Penn State had been voted into the league by its school presidents.
The news stunned the ADs into silence. Finally, Michigan's Bo Schembechler sputtered, "You gotta be s----ing me!"
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/20580851/conference-rea…
September 7th, 2017 at 4:15 PM ^
was right. Fuck Penn State. I still wish they would have been thrown out of the Big 10.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:32 PM ^
crazy as it seems in retrospect, the Presidents and Delany had a vote on Penn State, without even giving their ADs a heads up that PSU was being considered.
Not very transparent.
September 7th, 2017 at 7:00 PM ^
I completely agree. I truly cannot stand that PSU is a part of the B1G. They should not have had a football program for a couple years; they clearly didn't learn their lesson (what with the dedication of Paterno statues LAST YEAR and whatnot). They are a disgrace to the conference, college football, and decent human beings everywhere. It is insane that over half of the fanbase more or less compartmentalizes what happened and waves it away. And it is disgusting. I hate that we are associated with them via conference affiliation. And I hate even more that those assholes apparently learned absolutely nothing from the entire experience.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:20 PM ^
Those Domers are full of denial, aren't they?
"I think if you go back far enough, guys came to play football at Notre Dame because they wanted to play at Notre Dame," said the Rev. William E. Beauchamp, the former executive vice president of Notre Dame who oversaw Irish athletics from 1987-2000. "That was the driving force. I don't think that's so true anymore.'"
Well, haven't you asked yourself why they don't want to come play at ND anymore, William Beauchamp? It's because you're no longer the only brand seen on national TV every weekend. It's pretty simple. You no longer have that advantage over everyone else.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:39 PM ^
That was brought up in the article. I don't know if it was him or someone else, but they talked about how signing the NBC deal was big news back when it originally happened. Now, not so much.
But I do object to any notion that they were the only school that could recruit nationally. Amani Toomer, Mercury Hayes, Jarret Irons and Tom Brad were California/Texas recruits.
MSU was able recruit black players in the 1960s because they were afforded a chance to play D-1A football because the schools down south wouldn't admit them.
So yes, ND could probably recruit better across the nation, but other schools were able to do it also.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:51 PM ^
The NBC deal ensured all 11 of Notre Dame's regular season games appeared on national TV (ABC/CBS/NBC/ESPN).
That doesn't seem like that big of a deal now. But it was huge then. The numbers for some other elite-level, high-TV profile teams in 1991 (the first year of the NBC deal):
Michigan: National TV for 9 of the 11 regular season games (Minnesota & Northwestern were non-National TV games that year).
Miami FLA (#1 that year): National TV for only 6 of their 11 regular season games.
Washington (#2 that year): National TV for only 5 of their 11 regular season games.
Florida State (#4 that year): National TV for only 6 of their 12 (played in another kickoff classic) regular season games.
Rather crazy - Top 5 teams weren't seen nationally for a large chunk (33%-50% of their games). Notre Dame was at 100%. It was a HUGE advantage for the Irish at the time.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:06 PM ^
By 1994 the bloom was definitely off the rose, Notre Dame went 6-5-1. Then they had two more meh years with three losses each and Lou told the friars he was out of there. Know what the NBC contract got Notre Dame? National coverage of them losing four straight games in 1997, the first three of those games to Purdue, Michigan State, and Michigan.
Aside a couple of outlier years, ND has been fairly mediocre since inking their deal with NBC.
September 7th, 2017 at 6:48 PM ^
the word "fairly" from your last sentence. ND is the perfect example of a big-time college football program becoming poor to mediocre for 20+ years, since late in the Lou Holtze era around 1994.
September 7th, 2017 at 8:12 PM ^
one great HC hire from being back in the top 10, just like Michigan was before Harbaugh arrived.
Of course, as we have all learned, it is not so easy to make a great HC hire.
Pretty easy to get a good HC (though D. Brandon hard a hard time doing this). But the kind of coach that can make a team elite is rare. It requires a combo of luck and the stars aligning.
If the 49ers had not been stupid, JH probably would still be an NFL coach. Good fortune for Michigan that they fired him.
OSU was lucky that Meyer was sitting in a broadcasting booth exactly when the gig was up on Tressel's tat-gate, etc.
ND has made a series of not very good to good (but not elite) HC hires.
One more thing: To hell with Notre Dame.
September 8th, 2017 at 9:21 AM ^
How can you knock ND's coach hiring? They managed to get Charlie Weis, who we all know had a tremendous advantage over all other coaches due to his NFL experience.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^
I'm surprised that the article doesn't mention what to me is the most obvious recruiting issue for Notre Dame. In the middle of the last century, one of the biggest political forces in the United States was big city, industrial, working class Catholics. Most big midwestern cities--Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, etc.--had massive populations of these working class, often 2nd generation, Catholics.
These big city union members sent their sons and daughters to Catholic schools: every one of those cities has at least one Catholic High School that is one of the traditional athletic powers in their state. (Catholic Central in Michigan, or Cincinnati Moeller in Ohio, for example). Those schools were all basically feeder schools for the Notre Dame football team.
Those big-city Catholics are mostly gone, the big-city Catholic High Schools are mostly fading athletic powers, and the top of that pyramid, Notre Dame, of course is fading as well. Notre Dame's descent from glory is a demographic phenomenon.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:08 PM ^
I don't know the exact numbers, but I know some folk at the big Cincinnati Catholics ---- they've all said that while they are still strong feeder schools to Notre Dame, the percentage of their students that matriculate onward to Notre Dame are down considerably versus one to two generations ago.
Notre Dame, of course, actually found their next head coach (!!!) from a Catholic High School back in the 1980s. Gerry Faust from Cincinnati Moeller. That's how strong the pipeline was back then.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:42 PM ^
While this makes some sense, if you look at the recruiting rankings, ND still brings in good talent. I think their primary problem is coaching. (That said, it may be that certain institutional factors make it hard for them to find an elite coach.)
September 7th, 2017 at 6:01 PM ^
Well sure they do. They're still one of the 30 or 40 best programs in the nation, so they must still get top talent. It's just that they no longer have automatic access to the best high school football players in the nation, as they did from the 1920s to the 1970s.
Now Notre Dame has to fight for every player they get, just like Michigan and just like (say) Stanford. My point is that it wasn't always the case. They used to have immediate, near-automatic access to several reservoirs of the best high school football players in the nation.
You would have a hard time convincing me that Ara Parseghian was any better of a coach than Bob Davie or Tyrone Willingham. Parseghian just had some natural advantages at Notre Dame that Davie and Willingham no longer had.
September 7th, 2017 at 6:11 PM ^
Don't know about that last paragraph - Parseghian was clearly an elite coach. He won big at Miami (Oh.), managed a .500 record during Northwestern's dark ages, and won big at ND.
Also, his predecessor at ND (Joe Kuharich) was awful, so the program wasn't just on autopilot back then.
September 7th, 2017 at 9:17 PM ^
ND clearly underperforms its recruiting rankings. If its won-loss record is only top 30-40 over the past 25 years, its aggregate recruiting ranking is probably close to top 10. That happens with poor coaching. Kelly is probably their second-best hire in the last 40 years, and that's not saying much.
September 8th, 2017 at 8:39 AM ^
has hurt them, as well.
September 8th, 2017 at 2:18 PM ^
in Pittsburgh too. Dan Marino played there. Penn Hills (my HS, I was in the marching band) beat Central Catholic and Dan Marino 7-0 in the playoffs.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:55 PM ^
I don't think its so much realingment that killed Notre Dame as it is ESPN and cable TV. The article does mention how they used to be the only national team because of their NBC deal, but it doesn't discuss how while Penn State was added to the Big Ten in 1990, that's also right around the time ESPN blew up nationally (they added ESPN2 in 1993) and suddenly every CFB team was watchable no matter where you lived. When that happened, Notre Dame lost a lot of their marque status and became just another big team.
So its not so much realingment that killed Notre Dame as it is ESPN and cable TV.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:18 PM ^
The Buggles agree with you.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:54 PM ^
Funny thing is, I regularly forget to even check NBC when I'm flipping through games on Saturdays. It's barely on my radar.
September 8th, 2017 at 2:05 PM ^
Yes me too.
I remember when the ND on NBC deal was a big damn thing. A college football team with its own National network. Wow.
Michigan was on TV a lot, but it was not National despite what some people think. As recently as the '00s, I had to go to a bar to watch Michigan in the DC area because the TV network was showing an ACC game instead of the Michigan Big Ten game.
Notre Dame was the only team that was on true National TV every week. That was a big deal for national recruiting.
Now, Notre Dame is just another team. They are still a top team, but they are not the only national team like they once were.
I don't pay even attention to them unless it's a big game like this week.
The same as any other team that is not "my" team.
It's not that they have declined so much, it's that everyone else has caught up.
They don't move the dial like they used to.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:20 PM ^
Bo left Office of AD shortly after.
He was right. Let the ADs deal with athletics and let the presidents deal with what they're qualified to deal with--academics.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:32 PM ^
Except that having a school join a conference has academic implications as well. Remember during the last alignment when people were suggesting teams and ruling others out based upon academic reputation? The academics and the research funding is very big to the conference in addition to athletics.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:40 PM ^
I believe Nebraska was the school people were objecting to. That's why some people feel like if we added more teams, GTech and UVA would be better fits academically. Five years ago, I would've said UNC was the best fit.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:05 PM ^
Nebraska was AAU when they joined the big ten. They voluntarily dropped out rather than face a vote in 2011 because the AAU stopped counting USDA funded agricultural research in its metrics. Syracuse voluntarily dropped out of the AAU the same year instead of facing a membership vote for similar reasons.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:37 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 10:46 PM ^
September 8th, 2017 at 2:08 PM ^
This.
But they stole half of our National Championship, so fuck 'em.
September 8th, 2017 at 4:59 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 4:59 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 6:24 PM ^
Notre Dame didn't join the Big Ten because their faculty voted against it. It was an academic decision.
September 7th, 2017 at 7:37 PM ^
It's a sports league to WD. Some of the other conferences are in fact. But it's much more than that to the schools in the Big Ten.
Notre Dame's faculty voted overwhelmingly to join the Big Ten. They very much wanted to be part of the CIC.
September 7th, 2017 at 9:02 PM ^
Yeah, wasn't it their university president that vetoed it?
September 7th, 2017 at 10:19 PM ^
to join the Big Ten. Them and the sports other than football. I think the students voted against it and the big donors and football boosters were strongly opposed.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:21 PM ^
is talked about more on here than Michigan.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:26 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 4:26 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 4:29 PM ^
Remember when you got beat by Duke FOOTBALL?
I do.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:32 PM ^
Rutgers in football?
September 7th, 2017 at 4:43 PM ^
Oh, so we're going back now? Okay.
How about this little stat: Notre Dame hasn't won a major bowl game since I was born.
Nothing. You have literally NOTHING to show for the last 22 years.
Rutgers has more to show than Notre Dame has. They've won a conference title. But you wouldn't know anything about that. ND is just now losing to bad ACC teams as opposed to losing to bad B1G teams, which is what would happen if they ever joined.
Can't even beat Northwestern.
September 7th, 2017 at 9:38 PM ^
You realize ND and Michigan have been very similar programs the last 15 years right? Unless you are A Bama fan not really a ton of room to talk. I get with you have to put on this act but atleast be semi reasonable. Didn't realize Rutgers played for the National Title in 2012 and made a New Years 6 bowl in 2015.
September 7th, 2017 at 11:13 PM ^
They probably would've put up a better fight than your pathetic outfit.
The 2012 season didn't happen for ND, so I don't know what you're talking about looking the record books. So ignoring that.
Congrats on getting your ass kicked in a NY6 bowl two years ago. Michigan only lost by 1 to FSU and it was last year while your team went 4-8 and lost to Duke.
I don't see what's comparable between Michigan and ND in my lifetime, the original timeline I used before you changed it to make your argument.
Michigan's won a national title, 5 B1G titles, 3 major bowls.
Notre Dame has won 0 national titles, 0 conference titles (obviously) and 0 major bowls.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:38 PM ^
September 7th, 2017 at 4:46 PM ^
Stop killing interns and raping women. That'd be a good start to your return to relevance.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:44 PM ^
No biggie. Every loss in 2014 was ultimately worth it.
September 7th, 2017 at 7:16 PM ^
I mean, Notre Dame onlt does something newsworthy, what, once every few months? It usually involves being overrated as usual or someone turning purple. They don't have much else to hat their hat on recently.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:26 PM ^
The article basically makes two arguments:
1. Because Notre Dame is no longer the only national brand team.
2. Because they haven't found their Nick Saban.
Both basically true, if unenlightening. They thought they had their guy in Weis. Now they've settled, instead, on Brian Kelly. We might be wrong about the sort of person we think Kelly to be (I don't think so, but let's pretend for the sake of argument). But what has Kelly ever done to make ND think that they'll win a national title with him?
It's hard for a team that fancies itself a national power to hire a great coach. There aren't that many around, and the pressure is high enough that mining for gold amongst lower-level coaches doesn't always work. We struck gold because a top coach happens to be our former QB. Most schools do not have that.
September 7th, 2017 at 4:31 PM ^
"But what has Kelly ever done to make ND think that they'll win a national title with him?"
Other than playing in the national championship game?
Kelly is a nut job and has been exposed to be a hot head, but there was a lot of love for him before ND started melting down. People who know former GVSU players knew about him, but most everyone would have been excited had we landed him instead of Hoke. At least for awhile.
September 7th, 2017 at 5:47 PM ^
Interesting you mention Hoke, because ND's 2012 title game run is basically a slightly luckier version of Michigan's 2011 Sugar Bowl title. They made it to the title game and were utterly exposed. They had one ok win that season (Oklahoma) and one good win (a flukey one over Stanford) and were otherwise basically untested.
I will grant, though, that I sound overly categorical and that this is a good rebuttal. Yes, Kelly did show that potential at one time, and my posited question is consequently invalid.
But in the time since that lucky title game run ND hasn't come close to putting together a nationally competitive team. In a landscape where it is becoming increasingly clear that you need to recruit and coach excellence, Notre Dame is producing ok-to-bad.