Scrimmage Philosophy - Open Question
I have a basic question for the board:
Is it better, in an open scrimmage, to show more on the defensive side than the offensive?
1. Make opposing offenses spend valuable practice time rehearsing against multiple blitzes
2. Give opposing defenses very little to practice against
I understand the defense is generally ahead of the offense early in the fall practices, but I am looking for a silver lining in the OL play.
I would hope the new OC would be able to call for a play designed to counter so many blitzes, but 'Nuss chose not to in order to keep it hidden for an opponent.
Is it possible the vanilla play made the OL look worse than it really is?
Or do I need to stop drinking my lunch?
August 20th, 2014 at 12:58 PM ^
Ideally, you remain plain vanilla on both sides of the ball. Our team is a bit unique because the offense, particularly the line, needs all the reps they can against all kinds of fronts, blitz, etc. Every practice and scrimmage is valuable, particularly one in front of fans where they have a little extra pressure to perform, so we really didn't have much choice but to throw a lot of stuff at them.
Really, I think it's a little overblown how much opponent scouting can be done at these things in general. I mean, yeah, it's data and data is always valuable, but on the other hand, aside from our week 1 opponent, everyone else is going to get much better data from actual games.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:02 PM ^
So do you believe the DC was intentionally more aggressive in his playcalling than the OC?
The OL needs work against everything and has yet to master the basic, so the DC pulled a lot out of the bag and the OC kept it vanilla?
Very curious as to what the OL and the offense look like against a real opponent.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:36 PM ^
More or less yes. The other part is Mattison is Mattison and now he has the pieces to really be what he is so it wasn't going to be passive either way. But yes, I do think the offense got thrown a lot of stuff for their own benefit. I'm sure film sessions after the scrimmage were very interesting and filled with teaching moments.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:55 PM ^
with the Defense to stress-test the O-line a bit.
Opposing D-coordinators will be throwing everything they can at the O-line until they prove they can handle it OR we show the ability to consistently make big plays when blitzed.
Luckily we probably won't face as stout a defense as our own until mid-B1G season. (PSU?)
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I will be just happy if it doesn't look like we have never seen a double A-gap blitz when MSU runs it against us.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:00 PM ^
the theory of playing before fans to up the level of stress the O would experience. The idea was to do as much as possible to set the offense up for failure with the idea of finding those failure points and address them prior to the season. Unfortunately most people couldn't wrap their heads around that concept and so found themselves on the verge of going cliff diving when the offense didn't perform to perfection.
Sadly, as much as I looked forward to the scrimmage, I wouldn't blame Hoke should he say, "Never again."
August 20th, 2014 at 1:05 PM ^
my only worry is that after tearing them down, does Hoke have enough time to build them back up?
Wouldh't this excercise been better suited for the spring game?
August 20th, 2014 at 1:05 PM ^
my only worry is that after tearing them down, does Hoke have enough time to build them back up?
Wouldh't this excercise been better suited for the spring game?
August 20th, 2014 at 5:11 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:06 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
I hope Gmatt does do this in real games.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:11 PM ^
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August 20th, 2014 at 1:20 PM ^
Playing corner? Or dropped into coverage on a blitz?
August 20th, 2014 at 1:33 PM ^
switched positions well before the snap and Clark followed the receiver.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:35 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:38 PM ^
To be fair, AJ Williams motioned out to WR and Clark followed him there. It's not like he was covering Cateen or anything.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:39 PM ^
That's how we ended the Illinois shootout a few years ago! Let's hope it doesn't come to that this year though...
August 20th, 2014 at 1:07 PM ^
While I am not going cliff diving just yet, I think the line's performance in the scrimmage is some cause for concern. If the staff could be trusted to address the issues we saw, then your theory would be fine. They have seen that the line has been awful all of last year, spring practices and now again in the scrimmage, so there isn't evidence of it being an issue they can simply address. Hopefully the next two weeks and early season games are enough to get it going.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:45 PM ^
is as much to blame as many want to believe. The offense picked up most blitzes and turned them into no losses or even nice gains. Yes, there were some sacks, the D gets credit for being good.
As for the run game, I think one should look how Oregon RBs perform when running the IZ as compared to Michigan's. They are far less hesitant. They are decisive and make at most one cut and go. Too many times our guys were in the backfield waiting for the hole to open and by the time they hit it, it had already closed. That's not bad blocking, that's lack of anticipation...that's lack of reps. Hoke addressed this during the after scrimmage presser when he spoke of vision problems.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:00 PM ^
I saw at least 3-4 runs where it appeared to me (NON-expert) that the RB either missed or didn't take full advatage of the holes provided. I sometimes forget that the RBs are young as well and also new to this system.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:09 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 5:15 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:04 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:04 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:14 PM ^
The pass blocking appears to have been at least middling. The run blocking was another story.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:08 PM ^
What I'm hoping for is that the lackluster OL display was because of a really good defense. If the D lives up to the hype, then the OL could be practicing against one of the best defenses it will face this year. Hopefully, the D will make most offensive lines look bad this year. I don't expect the offense to be gangbusters right away but I hope they can actually improve as the season goes on. Last season we watched and waited and it never happened and they may have actually regressed on a few occasions.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:09 PM ^
It will be one of the top 3 defenses the OL plays all year. The probem with the theory of "well it sucked mostly because of the defense it went against" was last year showed the OL could suck against great defenses, average defenses, and bad defenses. So I am not taking comfort in the fact UM has a good defense to explain away what the offense put out.
Put it another way - if we put UM's 2014 offense and MSU's 2013 defense on the same field and they practiced together every day and we had a scrimmage and the 2013 MSU defense made the 2014 UM offense look pathetic we'd show up here and say well UM won't face a defense like that all year, so no worries. Than 2013 offense happened. It is too simple.
Look this offense is going to be all about Devin as others have said - the run blocking remains "poor" / "challenged". We don't have the best DL in the country - its a good young group of tackles and solid DEs. It is above average. It is not Bama. Devin needs to find the balance between taking chances and protecting the ball. He was too aggressive early last year and too conservative late last year. He needs to keep the team out of 2nd and 13. He needs to look off his first WR. He needs to read the defense properly pre-snap (he will have more time to do that this year). He needs to run at opportune times and get out of bounds before getting hit hard whenever possible. It's going to be another year of hero ball QB whether we like it or not. Devin has to show growth over last year and the defense needs to take significant steps up in pass defense last year. If both those happens it can alleviate this line.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:42 PM ^
It seems that while the DL is young and above average, as you say, it has an additional great advantage. Behind it is one of the best LB corps in the country, and behind that is arguably the best DB corps in the Big Ten.
Is it overly-optimistic to suggest that part of the OL's lackluster showing at the scrimmage was due to the fact that Michigan's LBs and DBs are so strong? (Sort of the opposite of the effect of the Detroit Lions having a dominant DL but weaker DBs.) Just a thought.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:54 PM ^
If I looked completely overmatched in a tennis match vs Roger Federer it wouldnt mean anything versus how I'd perform versus the local club pro. That is my point.
UM's OL could be overmatched vs UM's DL...and Akron's...and UConn's...and Rutgers. That's what happened last year. It was overmatched vs just about everyone not named CMU.
OR
UM's OL could be overmatched vs UM's DL... but crush Akron's...and UConn's...and do fine vs Rutgers.
I have no idea what the outcome is.
But the explanation that the main reason I suck was because I played Roger Federer doesn't translate to "if I didnt play Roger Federer I'd be fine". Which is the logic some are taking. A person who picked up a raquet for the first time todaay would get smoked just the same as someone who played HS tennis. It doesn't tell you much how good you are to be obliterated by an elite squad/person.
I could just be a young and struggling tennis player who loses to guys at the local outdoor club. OR... I could be someone who is just below Federer's level and I'll be fine versus everyone else not ranked in the top 200 of tennis. We have no idea which one our OL is. We'll see in a few weeks.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:17 PM ^
He wanted to simulate a game experience - running through the tunnel, being in front of fans, etc. I think he even said he wanted to simulate a night game, but my memory is foggy with regard to that detail.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:27 PM ^
but I dont buy it. There is too much risk and not enough up side in my opinion.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:49 PM ^
Though I do agree, he'll likely never repeat the excercise.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
Honestly, I hope the opposing defenses we play blitz the way our D did in the scrimmage. Go over the top with the arm of Gardner with the receivers that are available now.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
FWIW, a trusted poster on Rivals with connections to the program had this to say about the scrimmage:
- O and D were doing things intentionally to put the OL at a disadvantage.
- The first team we saw for the scrimmage is not actually the 1st team OL
August 20th, 2014 at 1:20 PM ^
Honestly that leaves me even more confused!
August 20th, 2014 at 1:24 PM ^
Kalis was out, so it seems to be true that the entire starting five weren't present. And Glasgow was hurt, so you could count that too.
I'm never inclined to trust an assertion that a coaching staff has a super-secret plan, but I also don't get to visit U of M practices.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:15 PM ^
Kalis is supposedly on the 1st team OL from the tea leaves Hoke is sending out but was held out due to the back issues so with him in that changes the 1st team from the scrimmage. So if Kalis in and Glasgow out at RG changes the whole complexion of the OL I guess we are fine. I doubt that is going to be the case.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:33 PM ^
if Glasgow then moves to another weak (or weaker if you prefer) spot on the line i.e. Center , LG (moving Magnuson to LT?) or even RT.
August 20th, 2014 at 3:07 PM ^
I agree it incrementally improves a position. I wrote "does it change the whole complexion of the line?"
I think it's a leap of faith to believe it but its preseason and to each their own belief. We have seen a spring and fall "scrimmage" and in neither - with a host of 10-12 different OL - have we seen anything to believe moving 1 player in or out changes the whole complexion of the OL. I am going to stick to the belief it can get better after 6-7 weeks of work together but that takes us a few weeks into Big 10 season. Glasgow might not even be a starter in week 2 right now, we'll see.
August 20th, 2014 at 2:28 PM ^
OL is question mark. Give them trial by fire in practice rather than getting it in East Lansing et. al. You can bet your ass any D-coordinator worth his paycheck is going to come after our O-line with abandon until this proves unwise.
I suppose you could coddle them by running your base D to allow the offense/O-line to gain confidence. (See JT Barrett film from OSU spring game on todays board post). My suspicion is that was the tack taken last year -- again see MSU game - and it has been decided to try another way.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:24 PM ^
August 20th, 2014 at 1:24 PM ^
Michigan isn't going to be in the fooling people business this year. They need to get to mediocre at a base thing, and most practice time expenditure is on that. Every opponent has seen base stuff. The intelligence stuff will be what they install week to week--wrinkles off the base thing. Right now there's nothing an enemy will see that helps them.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:30 PM ^
psychology type thing? I might be inclined to buy this. Only show base packages that everyone has anyway. Nuss is not new to college football. Everyone knows his style and scheme.
I just wonder if the risks (injury, OL embarrasment, tipping your hand) are worth any potential reward.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
Well if the scrimmage is open or closed the injury risk is the same. And I think the added pressure of potential embarrasment could have been something they were looking for. As well as getting the new and younger players used to playing in front of a crowd/under the lights?
August 20th, 2014 at 8:32 PM ^
make a good point here with the younger players. I suppose that Hoke may be thinking of playing the younger players against Appy St. This sounds reasonable to me.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:27 PM ^
To piggyback on this, most think the DL is better this year than last year and the OL certainly didn't play any worse than last year's scrimmage, faint praise that may be. Can/should this information lead one to conclude the OL is in fact incrementally better than last year?
August 20th, 2014 at 1:44 PM ^
querying one another about whether Hoke is playing Secret Agent man. We've inherited a historically bad O line that, as Seth says above, is trying to get to mediocre. They're just trying to find combinations, amid the injuries and wreckage, that they can PLAY. How many times can you have this conversation? In how much denial can you steep yourselves?
It's okay! You can indulge in a little reality and still love your team. No one will take away your Maize and Blue nappies.
August 20th, 2014 at 1:49 PM ^
...wondering whether the first-team OL from the scrimmage will be the first-team OL next Saturday is the same thing as being in denial. FWIW, I was attacked a day or so ago b/c I said the OL would likely not ever be above average this year.