Scholarship LS for fakes?

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June 7th, 2012 at 5:04 PM
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Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742
Scholarship LS for fakes?

I, like the rest of you, was wondering why Hoke would give a scholarship to an LS this early in the recruiting cycle. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Then I considered something that we saw a lot of last year: Fake Field Goals. Michigan attempted three fake field goals (and converted all of them), and I believe a couple of fake punts, though I can't find the instances.

Anyhow, it occurs to me that one of our new long snapper's highest rated attributes was his blocking. He gets out of his stance and into his block very quickly, they say, and blocks effectively. I'm thinking that Hoke is planning to make the fake kick an even bigger part of the game and wants a very good long snapper to make sure it works.

Your thoughts on this possibility?

Plus, we all know what can happen if a long snap is even a little off the mark.

Edit: I don't suppose that the Mathlete or another of our statistics savvy posters could look into their records and see what an agressive fake kick is good for in points over the course of a season?

 

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
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June 7th, 2012 at 5:09 PM | How many fakes a year can you (Score:5 Normal)
ryebreadboy
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Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 1791

How many fakes a year can you really do, though, before people start playing the fake moreso than the kick?

Denard has spent the offseason working really hard and smiling at people.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:17 PM | Then we kick the hell out of (Score:5 Normal)
Brown Bear
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Joined: 01/10/2011
MGoPoints: 2639

Then we kick the hell out of the ball!!! MANBALL SPECIAL TEAMS!

I poop excellence
June 7th, 2012 at 5:18 PM | Well, I agree (Score:2)
Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742

You couldn't do more than maybe, MAYBE one per game. But lets say you only did one every other game, total 6.

If you just kicked the FG's and made them: 18 points.

If you were less confident and attempted only 2, made one, and made the otherr FG's: 19 points.

If, because of your excellent scholarship LS, you attempt all 6 and make 5: 35 points.

I will wager that 16 or 17 points is good for one full win per season. If signing a scholarship LS gets us from 9 to 10 or 10 to 11 wins, then the scholarship was TOTALLY worth it.

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
June 7th, 2012 at 5:39 PM | This is assuming you (Score:2 Normal)
bacon1431
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Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 3288

This is assuming you successfully convert first downs on the fakes. Which, even with a guy that would specialize in such a play, isn't even close to a given.

For a' that, an' a' that, 
Our toils obscure an' a' that, 
The rank is but the guinea's stamp, 
The man's the gowd for a' that. 
June 7th, 2012 at 5:42 PM | What are the odds it comes (Score:2 Normal)
LandonC
Joined: 07/24/2008
MGoPoints: 1998

What are the odds it comes down to your excellent scholarship LS, though?

June 7th, 2012 at 5:18 PM | I can't give you a number, (Score:2)
Profwoot
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Joined: 10/12/2010
MGoPoints: 197

I can't give you a number, but I can say that putting the other team in that position is a huge positive to the kicking game regardless of whether the fakes actually work.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:09 PM | (No subject) (Score:4 Normal)
robbyt003
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Joined: 10/25/2010
MGoPoints: 2591

“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing” - Bo Schembechler

June 7th, 2012 at 5:10 PM | that sounds pretty good and (Score:-1 Flamebait)
June 7th, 2012 at 5:10 PM | that sounds pretty good and (Score:1 Flamebait)
Gssumcat
Joined: 11/10/2011
MGoPoints: 154

that sounds pretty good and it makes me feel better about the scholarship.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:11 PM | It feels so nice (Score:2)
Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742

you said it twice!

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
June 7th, 2012 at 5:15 PM | Hey -   It's time to stop (Score:3 Normal)
One Inch Woody ...
One Inch Woody Hayes Punch's picture
Joined: 06/25/2011
MGoPoints: 563

Hey -

 

It's time to stop complaining.

 

We needed a long snapper. Now we have one who's debatably the best in the country. We still have room for all the blue-chip prospects that we were in on previously. We get another wonderful young man to join our team. Now all we need is Treadwell, McQuay, and Green to commit and we're done. 

June 7th, 2012 at 5:25 PM | I'm not complaining about signing him (Score:2 Normal)
Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742

He's blue and I'm thrilled to have him. I'm just trying to speculate more on why.

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
June 7th, 2012 at 9:42 PM | That's the argument. We (Score:2)
ryebreadboy
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Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 1791

That's the argument. We don't really need a long snapper. We have Glanda for two more years, and Tozarsky coming in this year. Zero additional need. Hell, you can get one next year if Tozarsky doesn't look like he's working out.

Denard has spent the offseason working really hard and smiling at people.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:16 PM | I'm not the one to (Score:-1 Flamebait)
June 7th, 2012 at 5:16 PM | No doubt Coach Hoke knows (Score:1 Overrated)
MGoDC
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2303

No doubt Coach Hoke knows what he's doing, but I still can't help but wonder (even if it is for this reason) why would would offer this guy a full scholarship in June and potentially miss out on a top-250 type guy that we have to turn away because of lack of scholarships.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:19 PM | Because there are no more (Score:2 Normal)
One Inch Woody ...
One Inch Woody Hayes Punch's picture
Joined: 06/25/2011
MGoPoints: 563

Because there are no more than 3 top 250 guys that we are in true contention for.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:22 PM | Well again, as I said (Score:2)
Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742

Sure, save room for that top 250 defensive end or whatever. Truth is, he might be good for 17 points across his entire career. An LS that can make the kicking game into a true weapon might be good for that in a season.

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
June 7th, 2012 at 6:55 PM | An long snapper? (Score:1)
Craze for Maize
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Joined: 11/11/2011
MGoPoints: 763

Really?

June 7th, 2012 at 8:26 PM | I'm sure he intended the (Score:2)
Witz57
Joined: 06/11/2011
MGoPoints: 150

I'm sure he intended the reading of it to be "an El Es"

June 7th, 2012 at 5:19 PM | Doublepost (Score:3 Interesting)
MGoDC
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2303

My first one! Feels great.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:17 PM | Do we have room to offer a (Score:2)
SirJack II
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Joined: 11/15/2011
MGoPoints: 174

Do we have room to offer a scholarhip to a "catcher," who would then hand it off to the kicker?

June 7th, 2012 at 10:36 PM | I believe those are called (Score:2 Insightful)
ckersh74
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 3439

I believe those are called "holders".

June 7th, 2012 at 5:26 PM | Scholarship quetion (Score:3 Interesting)
westernwolverine
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Joined: 08/24/2011
MGoPoints: 40

 

Is true that student athletes can only take their  "official" visits once they have completed their ACT/SAT's?

 

 

 

June 7th, 2012 at 6:50 PM | Yes (Score:2)
Raoul
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Joined: 09/29/2009
MGoPoints: 5453

Here are the requirements for official visits from the 2011-12 NCAA Division 1 manual:

13.6.3 Requirements for Official Visit. The following requirements must be met before an institution may provide an official visit to a prospective student-athlete: [D] (Adopted: 4/26/07 effective 8/1/07)

(a) A high school or preparatory school prospective student-athlete must present the institution with a score from a PSAT, SAT, PLAN or ACT taken on a national testing date under national testing conditions, except that a state-administered ACT may be used to meet the requirement. The score must be presented through a testing agency document, on a high school or preparatory school academic transcript (official or unofficial) or through the use of the applicable testing agency’s automated-voice system. An  international prospective student-athlete who requires a special administration of the PSAT, SAT, PLAN or ACT may present such a score upon the approval of the Academic Cabinet or the Initial-Eligibility Waivers Committee; (Revised: 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)
 
(b) A prospective student-athlete must present this institution with a high school (or college) academic transcript;
 
(c) A high school or preparatory school prospective student-athlete must register with the NCAA Eligibility Center; and (Revised: 5/9/07)
 
(d) A high school or preparatory school prospective student-athlete must be placed on the institution’s institutional request list (IRL) with the NCAA Eligibility Center. (Revised: 5/9/07)
 
13.6.3.1 NCAA Eligibility Center. A prospective student-athlete’s fulfillment of these academic requirements may be certified by the NCAA Eligibility Center approved by the Executive Committee. (Adopted: 4/26/07 effective 8/1/07)

Twitter: @Raoul_000

June 7th, 2012 at 5:26 PM | No offense, but this is (Score:5 Normal)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

No offense, but this is completely ridiculous. 

June 7th, 2012 at 5:36 PM | I'm going to have to ask you to defend your statement (Score:4 Normal)
Blazefire
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Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 15742

Hoke has stated that he will go for the win with things like fake kicks. It's absolutely critical that a fake kick for the win come off as cleanly and be as well blocked as possible. So what then makes this ridiculous? I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right, I'd just like to see your defense.

"This is the EMU game, not the emo game."
June 7th, 2012 at 5:54 PM | Fine.  First, you don't offer (Score:5 Normal)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

Fine. 

First, you don't offer a scholarship to a guy for 6 plays a year. And I bet we wouldn't run 6 fake FGs per year.

Second, and most importantly, the long snapper would have the least impact on a successful fake kick than any other player on the field.  Even if he's a good blocker for a snapper, he's still a far worse blocker than any of the other linemen on the field at the time, worse than the TEs, and probably not better than an average running back.   

You'd have a better shot by putting in your back-up center (who actually knows how to block) when you're gonna run the fake.  I bet it would take 3-4 times before anyone would catch on, and even then, the players would have to figure it out and tell each other. 

June 7th, 2012 at 6:04 PM | So your argument is that the (Score:4 Normal)
RakeFight
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Joined: 02/21/2012
MGoPoints: 1370

So your argument is that the long snapper is the weakest link in the fake FG situation, and therefore it's completely ridiculous to think about trying to shore up that weak link by bringing in a top long snapper who can also block decently?

June 7th, 2012 at 6:12 PM | Nope, my point is that even (Score:1 Normal)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

Nope, my point is that even with Steve Selinski or whoever, the LS will always be the weakest link in the fake FG situation, so it's not worth using a scholarship on him. 

You don't offer a scholarship on a kicker who has good hands so you can use him for onside kicks.  Because even if you did, he still has a very slim shot at recovering the ball.  This LS who is 6'1" 230 is not going to be such a good blocker that he's have any affect on whether or not we succeed on the play. 

June 7th, 2012 at 9:41 PM | Maybe you would be better (Score:1)
michfan6060
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Joined: 01/22/2011
MGoPoints: 1246

Maybe you would be better putting your back up center in on a fake FG, but more than likely not since there is a much greater chance he would fudge up the snap and ruin the whole thing. Face it offering scholarships to LS is only going to become more and more common.

Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi

June 7th, 2012 at 5:28 PM | No man, the scholarship LS is (Score:2)
gajensen
Joined: 02/02/2011
MGoPoints: -998647

No man, the scholarship LS is for realz.

June 7th, 2012 at 5:28 PM | Darn, I thought the title (Score:5 Normal)
Teepodum
Joined: 08/06/2011
MGoPoints: 305

Darn, I thought the title meant that the scholarship LS story was fake

June 7th, 2012 at 6:01 PM | You generally don't recruit (Score:2 Normal)
bacon1431
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Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 3288

You generally don't recruit players specifically for a play you're only going to utilize 5 times in one year max. It's like recruiting RB and your main criterion being his arm strength and accuracy so you have a better chance of completing a HB pass.

For a' that, an' a' that, 
Our toils obscure an' a' that, 
The rank is but the guinea's stamp, 
The man's the gowd for a' that. 
June 7th, 2012 at 5:40 PM | It's hard to really make fake (Score:3 Normal)
bluetell
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Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 4770

It's hard to really make fake kicks a regular part of your gameplan. Remember MSU-ND this year when MSU went for The Worlds Most Obvious Fake Field Goal? Everyone in the world saw it coming and it got stuffed and Mork looked dumb.

Not saying Hoke doesn't like it to be in his playbook, but I doubt trick plays are why he offered a scholarship to said long snapper

Rudy watches inspirational movies about Shawn Hunwick

 

June 7th, 2012 at 8:11 PM | Didn't he call a timeout (Score:2)
Lionsfan
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Joined: 06/03/2011
MGoPoints: 3908

Didn't he call a timeout beforehand though? And part of fakes is not trying the same thing twice. Ergo, you beat someone on a great fake play-call the next year you don't try to run the same fake.

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

June 7th, 2012 at 10:26 PM | Yeah I think you're right. I (Score:2)
bluetell
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Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 4770

Yeah I think you're right. I think that's what made it so stinkin obvious.

Rudy watches inspirational movies about Shawn Hunwick

 

June 7th, 2012 at 5:40 PM | my reasons (Score:2 Underrated)
cadillacjack333
Joined: 10/27/2010
MGoPoints: 217

1) He is going to touch the ball 6-10 times per game; 2) He will grow and probably be a backup center as well; 3) We are telling the Big Ten and the country that we are kicking your butts so hard in recruiting that we now have the luxury of taking a long snapper.

June 7th, 2012 at 6:05 PM | He will never be a back-up (Score:3 Normal)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

He will never be a back-up center.  He's 6'1" 230.

June 7th, 2012 at 9:24 PM | David Molk was 6'1...he (Score:2 Normal)
tigers17fan
Joined: 06/07/2012
MGoPoints: 131

David Molk was 6'1...he turned out pretty well. And remember, this kid is a Junior, in high school...he's still gonna grow 1 or 2 inches AT LEAST. And as to weight? He has time to put it on...I see him ending up 6'3 275. Compared to Molk at 6'1" 290, yeah...i think he could be a backup center

June 8th, 2012 at 9:56 AM | He'd also need to possess the (Score:1)
bacon1431
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Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 3288

He'd also need to possess the quick feet and brute strength of Molk and his no-neckness, which is not happening. Let's also look at his frame and realize there's no way he can carry 275 pounds of good weight. And he needs good weight because part of the long-snappers job is to also help out with kick coverage after the ball is away. That's why you don't have long-snappers that are 280 pounds and your long snappers are never your back-up centers. It's an extremely specialized position and they don't really fit in anywhere else.

For a' that, an' a' that, 
Our toils obscure an' a' that, 
The rank is but the guinea's stamp, 
The man's the gowd for a' that. 
June 7th, 2012 at 6:05 PM | schollie (Score:2)
michgoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 11210

I, for one, like the use of this scholarship.  We still have room for AT LEAST a top RB, WR and DE.  Are there really other positions of need out there?  If there is some other top 250 player out there, there is still room, as we will amost certainly lose either a single current player to attrition or one current recruit to a decommit.

Bottom line, there was no better use for this spot, and I like the idea of perfecting our special teams.  Sure beats treating them as an afterthought.

June 7th, 2012 at 6:13 PM | Yes there was: DB. (Score:1)
TheGhostofYost
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Joined: 04/20/2011
MGoPoints: 2560

Yes there was: DB.

June 7th, 2012 at 6:15 PM | Well, in order to get to 24 (Score:2)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

Well, in order to get to 24 in this class, we need 4 more guys to leave the team already, so when you say "a single current player" you really mean a single current player in addition to the four we're already planning on. 

June 7th, 2012 at 6:33 PM | How a longsnapper blocks and (Score:2)
jhender85
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Joined: 10/25/2008
MGoPoints: 1385

How a longsnapper blocks and fake punts/field goals do not go hand in hand. A longsnapper is a specialist, all he really has to do is snap a tight, accurate spiral quickly and consistently and be able to slow down someone coming up the middle for a second or two. This is all he really has to do during a fake anyways, because most fakes will take advantage of the defenders bunched up in the middle and go outside. Even in a passing fake, you'll see the passer bootleg out more often than not. Blocking effectively as a longsnapper is obviously a bonus, but doesn't really support your "Moar fakes!" theory.

June 7th, 2012 at 6:44 PM | The LS handles the ball a (Score:3 Normal)
CRex
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Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 8736

The LS handles the ball a couple times a game normally.  Sometimes more in really bad games.  I'm not really all that outraged over the fact we've given a scholarship to a guy who is going to touch the ball multiple times per game.  Four years of more effective punts and not having any botched snaps (Ohio State game, although that was more on the punter) is worth a scholarship.  

We give scholarships to guys who never do anything beyond playing gunner on special teams and we don't lament over those.  What makes the decision to get a top long snapper, instead of just getting a walkon of variable talent, such a horrible one...?

June 7th, 2012 at 6:53 PM | But we don't ever give a guy (Score:2)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

But we don't ever give a guy a scholarship with the intent that he does nothing beyond being a gunner on special teams.  We don't have a problem giving Mike Cox a scholarship, because before he gets to campus we don't know he won't be Mike Hart or Vincent Smith. 

But this guy, best case scenario, will see the field a handful of times a game, and will likely do negligibly better than whoever would have played his position in his place. 

Have we had any botched long snaps in the last few years?  Yeah, Hagerup muffed one, but that was a good snap that went through both of his hands, not even over his head.  Outside of that episode, can anyone remember a bad snap?  I'm sure they've happened, but there's no guarantee this kid will go 100% either. 

June 7th, 2012 at 7:12 PM | ? (Score:0 Trolling)
June 7th, 2012 at 7:17 PM | Although I completely agree (Score:2)
WolvinLA2
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Joined: 11/13/2009
MGoPoints: 17683

Although I completely agree with your point, we only took one LS last year because Taybor Pepper accepted a scholarship at MSU.

June 7th, 2012 at 7:34 PM | What happened, happened... (Score:2)
maizenbluedevil
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Joined: 09/12/2008
MGoPoints: 2602

What happened, happened...  we can debate the merits of this move until the cows come home and it won't make much of a difference, but I will say this:  That kid is one lucky bastard!!  I hope he realizes how lucky he is.

For a LS to:

1. Get offered a full, unconditional scholarship.

2. At a school like Michigan.

3. In JUNE....

....That's gotta be like a once in a lifetime occurence.  He plays an obscure position, and has his college choice wrapped up before his senior season, full-ride to Michigan.  That's gotta be the long-snapper equivalent of winning the lottery.

 

CJK5H

June 7th, 2012 at 8:19 PM | ... (Score:1)
cozy200
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Joined: 01/02/2011
MGoPoints: 873

Only time im gonna weigh in and allow my mind to accept this as reality. I can not see how and why this happened. Displeased? 1000%. So many other holes that need plugged. In the end i trust the coaches. Back i go 4 layers down almost to limbo forgetting i ever read this.

Its called a royale with cheese

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