Per ESPN and all the other things. 31st pick of the 3rd round.
"It's a lot easier being a drug dealer than an AAU coach" - this guy. Tell me something I don't know. I mean, don't think but have never tried either.
Yeah, to all the people who scoffed at the idea that UM had two NFL tackles on this team...
Good to Schofield, and I think Denver is a great situation for him right now and, hopefully, he'll become an integral part of their success.
"Yeah, to all the people who scoffed at the idea that UM had two NFL tackles on this team..."
I'm not sure that is encouraging going forward.
I think it will obviously be tough this year to compensate for losing them, but from a program standpoint he's a guy who developed into a much better player when he left than when he arrived. Lewan was basically 90% on the way to the NFL when he joined up; you just wind those guys up and let them go, with minor course-corrections along the way. But Schofield wasn't ordained to be a decent NFL draft selection, and it is encouraging to see him improve under this coaching staff. Small victories and all, but it gives a little ammo to those who believe that Funk wasn't the core reason the offensive line struggled last year.
Schofield started every game at guard as a RS sophomore right when this staff arrived. On a team that had two 1,000 yard rushers. He's been good for three years. He was also a well regarded 4-star prospect coming out of high school. The only improvement that has happened is people who acted like he wasn't really that good the last three years have no wiggle room for their bullshit anymore. Just like with Patrick Omameh who is on an NFL active roster. And William Campbell who got drafted as an OL despite never playing there and is on an active roster. Not to mention Taylor Lewan, who is now being portrayed as a super-villain by the staunch defenders of our poor beleaguered coaching staff.
There has been a ton of offensive line talent here the last two years and the performance has been terrible. A lot of people have simply refused to believe that they may have been wrong about both Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke.
We may have been too young in 2013, but we certainly had enough talent in 2012 (the excuse going around at that time to explain a subpar performance). Maybe Nuss is the answer and Borges was the problem. But if this problem continues or is even worse then I think we'll all have a good idea who to blame.
A lot of people have simply refused to believe that they may have been wrong about both Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke.
Funny. I happen to think the exact same thing about you.
If you want to wager a dollar that we have a better record than Arizona next year I'll gladly accept the action.
If you win I won't even make you pay up on the last two years when we didn't. If you lose, however, I would like three crisp portraits of George Washington and a heartfelt apology.
We'll know who is right soon enough. I'll happily pay a buck if it means Brady Hoke isn't a ridciulously underqualified, mediocre head coach who only got the job here because of the worst kind of nepotism. Just because I'm in the minority (a minority of one until fairly recently) doesn't mean shit, though.
Just a reminder that all the excuses people are so quick to use now applied doubly to the guy we ran out of town, who had the same record in year three but didn't inherit 5 NFL offensive linemen in his first three years on the job.
I've tried having conversations with you about this before but it's impossible. Your cherry-picking of which points to use for comparisons drives me crazy. Conveniently, you went with "record in year three" and number of "inherited NFL offensive linemen." Rodriguez was here for three seasons. All three of them were abysmal. Hoke has been here for three seasons. One was excellent, one was mediocre, and one was shit. Believe me, I could cherry-pick points back to you, but that's not how reasonable people debate things.
I didn't think that Michigan fans were patient enough with Rodriguez and it pissed me off. I don't get fans like you who think the best response to believing that Rodriguez didn't get a fair shake is to not give Hoke a fair shake. That just seems so petty and childish.
You just said all three years were "abysmal."
He hadn't shown that he could beat MSU or OSU. He hadn't shown that his offense could work in poor/cold weather. He wasn't recruiting like Hoke has recruited...in fact, he pissed off the majority of the HS coaches in the REGION.
Lastly, our defense was the worst in school HISTORY.
Outside of the record improving 2 wins a season, season which you say are abysmal. How was sanyone not patient enough?
Hoke hasn't had 3 abysmal season, Hoke has had 2 GREAT recruiting classes (with kids that are still at Michigan and not transferring away), Hoke has beaten MSU and OSU.
Both were handed SUPER SHITTY situations. No question. Neither was handed a young Braxton Miller that fits the system perfectly. Rich Rod didn't show any promise anywhere, Hoke has at least done that.
After 3 years when Rich Rod left, we had some kids Carr recruited to anchor a great season for Hoke and no depth. If Hoke was fired TODAY, the next coach would have a GREAT foundation to build from in the next 3 years. He may struggle this year, but next year, this team should be good no matter what. Same for all of the following year as long as that coach continues to recruit well.
"He hadn't shown that his offense could work in poor/cold weather."
Wow ... you played the cold card. Exactly what about cold, rainy weather makes running the ball out of a spread formation difficult?
It's not that all your points were bad, but you made a really horrible one there.
#1 - Way to pick out ONE thing I said from that entire argument
#2 - Way to put words in my mouth...err my post. I didn't say it wasn't possible to run the spread in the cold. I said RICH ROD couldn't win late in the year, in the cold or bad weather. Our offense SUCKED once the weather turned. Not as bad as the defense already was, but it was bad compared to early in the year when we'd move the ball up and down the field pretty easily.
For 2 years we had a Heisman candidate by the first 3 games as we played in the nice warm weather, played ND, etc.
Then our QBs (Forcier and Robinson) would kind of fall off the face of the earth in comparison. Injuries had a lot to do with it for both, but the fact remains...Rich Rod didn't do well in poor weather conditions at MICHIGAN.
I didn't say anything about the spread as a whole. Rich Rod was at WVU, I'm sure they had snow and cold days there...I'm sure he did fine. At Michigan, he didn't didn't.
THAT was my point. Not whatever b/s you are trying to say I said.
I think the point is that the weather had nothing to do with poor late season performance but you've attributed that as the reason without any evidence.
Causation vs. correlation and all that.
This is a really strange response to my post.
By the middle of year 3, I was done with Rodriguez, too. The crowd that quit on him much, much earlier than that - like before the end of year 1 - was not helpful.
In general, though, I'm not sure why you seem to be so vehemently disagreeing with me. I think we're mostly on the same page.
he wrote what you desperately wanted him to have written. In fact in large measure I'd say you echoed what he said.
I don't think that Hoke can use any excuses about any other positions, but it's just a fact that we had a clusterfuck for OL recruiting in 2009-2011. This is also the position that takes the longest to learn and play at a high level. Narduzzi and dantonio had terrible DBs due to their previous regime in their third year and its now the strength of their team. hey maybe Hoke's not the right guy but you seem like a guy who would rather be right then for our team to win.
Keep fighting the good fight. I want Michigan to succeed. We all do. But you're right: Hoke's resume did not befit the position when he was hired. He was 47-53, if I recall, never in a major conference. Or, put differently: We hired him, it seemed, because he REALLY WANTED THE JOB. Hell, he'd be willing to walk to A2 from San Diego!
In that case, I would (again) like to state that I will walk from Chicago, IL to Washington, DC for the job of U.S. Attorney General. I really want it, after all-- I'm willig to walk a ridiculously long distance for it! I'll say all the right things at my introductory press conference/confirmation hearing. I want it! More than anyone else does! And I'm a lawyer!
It's only slightly less ridiculous than hiring a guy who's biggest qualifications (or, more accurately, the qualifications that he supposedly had OTHER THAN having a win-loss record in BCS football that about 50 coaches have) is "coached here once during the 90's" and "really wanted the job."
You pointing out to people that Hoke wasn't qualified when he was hired doesn't make you a bad guy; to me, it makes you rational.
To the reasons for winning the award, but as far as BH not being qualified for any other reason than "he wanted it more" is a little exaggerated. This guy did win his conference's coach of the year award 3 out of 4 years, in 3 different conferences. Again, I know that doesn't prove his "awesomeness with zero fallibility", but I think it does prove he's not a neanderthal who doesn't wear sleeves or a headset.
I love you.
I miss Coach every single day. I'm a Michigan alum/football season ticket holder but you better believe I'll be at Arizona's first Rose Bowl.
OL was never a problem under RR. 2011 could even be viewed as a ghost year on the Oline.
Interior oline depth and coaching. We'll see if it was mostly on the OC or Funk this season.
David Molk and a healthy Denard and Fitz was able to mask any real deficiencies that were apparent for the coming years.
That was an upperclassmen group with a scheme that didn't rely on top notch OL play.
They had NO depth behind them. Jack Miller and Rocko Khoury were the highest rated non-starters on those teams.
Think about that.
We literally didn't have scholarship BODIES on the team when Hoke took over. That's what I don't get about the Rich Rod sympathy. You can argue that he didn't have support from day 1, but no one can say for sure he would've had sustained sucess. His defense was AWFUL and he didn't have any OL on the team. Rich Rod would've been just as screwed and we can all agree that he wouldn't have had the defense to even compete.
We would've been good in his 4th year (Hoke's first)...MAYBE. If he could've turned the defense around and proved he could get his offense to work late in the year when the weather turned. MAYBE. After that, not one person can sit here and tell me had a foundation laid for sustained success. That's after 4 years!
So while I agree our OL play sucked and I'm not sold we've developed anyone. There hasn't been much to work with.
We had the Barnum/Omameh types to start with to go along with Schofield, Lewan and Molk...we didn't even have those Barnum/Omameh/Huyge/Ortmann type players last year.
Now look at the roster. Someone like Blake Bars may never start, but if he's forced into action his RS JR year, that's going to be a lot better than playing a freshman Kyle Bosch, walk-ons, or whoever else we were trying to play last year. That's how you build an OL. You can't take a year or 2 off because you lose a Lewan. You have to have another guy coming up right behind him or a "bridge" to that touted young guy who's next in line.
We had those bridges in Hoke's first year, but they were all seniors and Rich Rod left no one behind them except for Jack Miller. The bridge crumbled. Now we've got guys like Bars/Samuelson/Fox...these guys may never start until they're 4th and 5th year players, but there won't be a huge drop off if they are called on as upper classmen. They'll be the bridge guys to the next young 5* who isn't ready as a true or even RS freshman.
You need those RS Jr type players to provide depth and stability. THAT is when you know if a player is playing over them, they're a solid/great player. That is when you can lose a Lewan and/or Schofield and still have a solid line the next year playing a Ortmann/Huyge type player until your 5* OT that is a RS Fr. gets another year under his belt.
1. Michael Scholfield was a solid player in 2011 but nothing about his play screamed 3rd round draft pick which, lets remember, is where Mike Martin went. NO ONE looked at him and said those two were any where close to being the same caliber player even comparing sophomore years, Schofield was DEVELOPED to be this good.
2. There has been a ton of TACKLE talent during Hoke's tenure but interior has been lacking sans Molk. That's why when guys were living in our backfield last year it was DT's, ILB's and blitzers of the edge (RB responsibility) and not DE's. We haven't had a true center since Molk and that was our biggest problem in 2012, not lack of talent. When you run man blocking schemes, you have to have a center who can make on field adjustments to defenses and guards that can pull, we had neither. Patrick Omameh couldn't pull to save his life, which is why he commited to RR to run the zone, which is a style he was very proficent at and why he is currently on a NFL roster. 2012 was a combination of a bad coaching descision to run man all year, the toughest schedule in the country and Denard getting hurt and after all that I still think that we might have been the best team in the B1G that year and if we weren't it was Wisky. We didn't have a single loss to a team not in the top ten of the final poll when we had a healthy starting QB, yeah only 8 wins sucks but that was a good football team, wecould have easily been 11-1 that year.
3. William Campbell had almost eaten himself out of the program when Hoke got here and THIS staff is the biggest reason he is even still able to have the honor of doning a uniform and that's the truth. He was also switched DT by RR so including him in a conversation about OL talent is insane and if you want to counter with he should have been switched to guard, I'll counter with the Ohio game and the 400+ yards we gave up on the ground, those are the guys who would have taken his place
4. Bad Recruiting? I'm sorry that this staff didn't go out and find in the 2012 class a Hutch(legitimate case at greatest guard OF ALL TIME!!)/Baas(a great center, sigh)/Long(#1 overall pick, who btw was raw coming out of high school)/Lewan. And how are you so sure we didn't? You haven't seen one minute of Braden without a club, Mags looks like he could be solid and Kalis still has THREE years to turn things around. You can't put the nail in to coffin of an OL class after their RS FR years.
I'm not saying these past year haven't sucked, they have but this has been happening for a while now and its not all on this coaching staff though they have made some mistakes. Hoke has put 2 top 15 teams on the field and brought in elite recruiting classes in his 3 years here. Yes he hasn't won a B1G championship but M hasn't since 2003 and it's not fair to put that all on Hoke. He is rebuilding the program and all signs not labeled OL seem to show he has the ship pointed in the right direction and we should't torpedo it because Borges and one bad year. Hoke has earned the right to at least the 2015 season barring an epic collapse this year. Beat ND, win your home games, and at the VERY least split NW and Rutgers (we should sweep) and you have 9 wins. If State brings back the same kind of D they have been we have zero shot in EL outside of a diarrhea of turnovers by the Spartans. Ohio's DE will probably tear us apart but that's too far to tell. We should have at least 8-10 at this point unless a team really breaks out next season or we get upset at home which hasn't happened under Hoke outside of Borges completely forgeting Offense 101 against Nebraska so we should have a least a decent year. 2015 and beyond is championship time but as of 2014 we are still in rebuilding mode, whether we like it or not.
post I have written
he didn't play on the Oline until his senior year in HS. What on earth makes you believe that statement.
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that 100% of all the OL coaches from Alabama to USC to Oregon to Florida State and everywhere in between would laugh at the notion that any freshman is 90% of the way to being ready for the NFL.
It could be good for recruiting.
I feel our OL woes weren't entirely due to personnel, a lot of it had to do with silly schemes and the predictability of our offense. obviously interior experience. MSU, OSU, NE seemed to have our playbook in their back pockets. Borges is gone. Maybe we will be okay.
Having two NFL tackles does not necessarily mean having two great college tackles.
It does when they were just drafted by the NFL.
Four threads for this seems excessive. Lewan only got one.
And they are all deleted.
That 2009 recruiting class did some pretty great things in terms of where the program is right now.
That 2011 season is the best thing that has happened since the thrill of 2006.
Guys who re-wrote the record books like Denard, Gallon, Forcier, Gibbons.
Two big time OTs.
a 1st and 3rd round OT and their OL is a tire fire last year
I'm going with toughness. Also, they didn't "stick together and play as a team."
I thought it was because Hoke doesn't wear a headset.
that we had great tackles that we should have had a great offensive line. As a matter of fact, it is probably more important to have a strong interior line given our stype of play (pro set with frequent TE sets that can help tackles) and our opposition (teams like MSU featuring inside blitzing).
Linemen are like the tires on your car. A couple of great ones can not make up for a couple of really bad ones.
You are actually better off if they are all just serviceable with no big outliers.
Coaching or youth in the middle? I don't know anymore...
ps I love you all and god help us.
Those two things, the second of which improves this year by default. They took a step to improve the first, hopefully Nuss gets it going
You may wrap "bad recruiting" in with coaching, but to me it is a separate thing and a big question mark for this staff. Who looks like the next Hutchinson/Baas/Long/Lewan on the current roster?
And anybody acting like we can be really good without those kinds of guys is just talking nonsense.
As for coaching, pretty sure we had five 4th and 5th year guys on the o-line in 2012. Three are in the NFL now. The other two were 4-star recruits. And Will Campbell got drafted by the Jets and is on their active roster at OG, even though this staff though he'd be better playing part-time on defense.
Youth sure as shit wasn't to blame for that. And the company line about lacking talent/toughness/pro-style players looks pretty weak at this point.
I don't think the company line has anything to do with talent/toughness/pro-style players. It has to do with number of days alive.
The guys who make up the line this year will probably stink. But most of them will be here in 2016, when the line will be really good by virtue of it being comprised of almost all seniors and multiple-year starters.
Chin up. It will all be OK, as soon as we flush the empty 2010 OL class from the system.
Thanks for the optimism, but you're missing his main point. In 2012, we had four NFL offensive linemen on our team, and our OL play was embarrassing. That is a major red flag regarding a coaching staff's competence in evaluating its roster and putting players in position to succeed.
Will Campbell was a bust at OL and is why he was moved to DL by Rich Rod. Searching for answers on the OL he brought Campbell back to the OL to fill in. Before spring practice 2011 Campbell asked Hoke if he could return to the DL, but even then, so poor was Big Will's showing even at D, he wasn't listed on the two deep for either side of the ball during his Junior season. It took Brady Hoke and Greg Mattison to finally get something out of him as a DT for his Senior season.
The Jets took him in the 6th round and they called him an OT, BFD. That didn't make him an offensive lineman for Michigan, and it remains to be seen if he ever plays a snap with the Jets.
Recruiting profile: http://mgoblog.com/content/hello-again-will-campbell
First in-game action: http://mgoblog.com/content/upon-further-review-defense-vs-iowa-0
I'm mostly in agreement with you. Lots of talent on the OL has been absolutely squandered the past two years. Also, Schofield is being pegged as an interior NFL lineman, so if the reason behind our historic futility last season was omigod-young-INTERIOR-line, then maybe you put your third-round NFL draft pick guard at guard, you first-round NFL draft pick tackle at tackle and figure the rest of it out. Chrissake, the OL ineptitude the past two years has cratered my faith in this staff.
YES. While it was starting I openly complained how stupid it was to leave him at T , and we need to put Schofield at RG..,soon after we see the worst OL in out history
Last time that happened was 2006, Miami Hurricanes.
There have had to be be two players drafted from one team since 2006 in the first three rounds. Alabama, LSU, Florida?