Schlissel on athletics and academics (AD search related)
Some great reporting from the Michigan Daily on Schlissel's take on sports and the academic life of the University. It is certainly worth posting anyway, but especially because of this:
Schlissel added that Curzan [English Prof. Anne Curzan, who serves as faculty liaison to the Athletic Department and requests reports every semester on any classes with more than 20 percent student-athletes enrolled] said the Athletic Department “often tries to keep her at arm’s length,” expressing frustration regarding the marginalization of faculty governance in these matters.
“That’s why I’m taking a bit of time with the search for Dave’s successor,” Schlissel said. “Some folks wanted me to hire an athletic director (earlier) so he could fire the current football coach and hire the next coach but I want to take the time to make sure we get someone who is not only technically adept, but can ensure that the program has financial and academic integrity, and also someone who shares the value system of realizing our mission.
“People have been saying all kinds of things about who I’m talking to about positions and this sports stuff, and they name names of people who I have no idea who they are,” Schlissel said. “I’ve really learned that this whole athletic sphere and the usual way you approach things just doesn’t work. It’s just a crazed or irrational approach that the world and the media takes to athletics decisions.
“It’s a time sink,” he added.
Schlissel seems committed to maintaining the academic integrity of the sports teams. People will panic about what this means about Michigan's competitiveness going forward, but I think that many of us would be happy with a balanced approach. We don't want to replicate what happened at UNC, certainly.
Link: http://www.michigandaily.com/article/schlissel-talks-athletics-and-admi…
November 11th, 2014 at 12:01 PM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 10:55 AM ^
The graduation rate under Hoke is excellent. The limited number of majors our players have is embarrassing and often brought up by opposing fanbsases and I am sure is used against us in recruiting. There's more to academics than just graduation rate, how can you even get a degree in General Studies anyway?
November 11th, 2014 at 11:14 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 11:50 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 12:23 PM ^
4-5* kids aren't going to pay much attention to coaches talking bad about UM's academics. They want to play football. Again, I'm not saying let everyone in and make up grades, but there can be a balance. If you want mediocrity that is cool with me and your opinion. I like watching UM compete for championships and insisting that each player meet the requirements to get into Ross will make that impossible.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:32 PM ^
Do you understand what General Studies is? It's not a major in the conventional sense. It allows students to design their own course of study while fulfilling University requirements. It's useful for people who have extracurricular activities (like, say, football from 2-6 every day) that make it tough to take certain classes required for "normal" majors.
And "undeclared" obviously just means that they haven't chosen a major yet. That's pretty common for underclassmen.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:55 PM ^
Shifting majors due to excessive academic time requirements coupled with other time requirements happens everywhere and for a LOT of different reasons and not just with athlete's.
When I started at the Air Force Academy I wanted to major in engineering, but because I tested into a "remedial" math course, I was told I would have to take summer school every year and take at least 24 hours a semester in order to successfully complete the requirements for electirical engineering. Contrasted against everything else I had to do there, that seemed crazy and so I majored in Political Science instead, reasoning that my goal of eventually getting to pilot training was still existent. Now did I get "steered" into that major or was I presented with a range of options and made a choice that took some rather unpleasant facts into account?
I have a feeling athlete's are given similar choices and it's going to happen at any demanding academic institution.
As far as recruiting goes, the whole "you'll get steered into a bad major thing" is the sort of thing a cocach that knows he's at a disadvantage would say. Recruits can either accept it at face value or see if there's some bullshit artistry behind it. Either way that's how recruiting works and will continue to work, often regardless of facts.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^
Is it just me, or is this actually good news re: the one coach everyone wants? Said candidate was successful at THE most academically rigorous/intense school in 1-A football. Stanford takes even fewer academic-questionable kids than anywhere else. His star QB majored in architecture and engineering...I don't think that will be an obstacle.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:09 AM ^
I took it to mean he doesn't want the athletic dpeartment trying to undermine or strongarm the academic side of things. No problems there. He is looking for an AD who will uphold the integrity of UM academics, a trait that is great to have. I also think this makes Manuel look really good. He not only has highly competitive UConn basketball programs, but he has been through a football hire, and he led the basketball program back from academic inelligibility left by his predecessor.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:10 AM ^
Why change the coach when the president is calling for mediocracy. Hoke is perfect. We can graduate our students and be 6/6 and everyone will be happy. Sad day for Michigan athletics in my mind.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:21 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 6:54 PM ^
So you didn't actually read the article that you're commenting on. Got it.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:10 AM ^
20 years before Michigan wins a big ten championship in football if academic standards for athletes are raised above the NCAA minimums.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^
from a poster above: "what if Hoke fits the academic approach the Schlissel is looking for and believes he can improve the teams win loss record?" That's exactly right: If academics/graduating players are the big thing, UM might as well keep Hoke. In my experience (UM student early '80s) athletics was WAY bigger outside the school then inside. Half the University's upper echelon didn't care about the football team. Those that DID care mostly cared in the form of resenting it because Bo made more than their pal who ran chemistry labs and they hated that. more than half the student body didn't care. Way more than half
November 11th, 2014 at 11:17 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 1:04 PM ^
Combine that with the fact that Sports at Michigan are a BIG part of the general public's perception of the school. Growing up in Nevada, I knew all about the "Fab Five" but didn't know much about Michigan's academic reputation.
I get where President Schlissel is coming from and in the abstract support it. But, I think he's resenting the spotlight on football right now and regarding it as a distraction. I'd much rather see him embrace this for the opportunity that it is and do the right thing in a time frame that won't drive everyone crazy. The football team is a big way that the University connects to the community, the alumni, and the outside world, I don't think he realizes what a big asset he has that he seems intent on throwing away.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:18 AM ^
I don't have a problem with what he's saying with more oversight because of UNC. As for the guys we're getting they appear to be pretty bright. We've graduated many players under Hoke. We don't have to be more restrictive or anything. I mean Denard wasn't a 4.0 student but he was definitely worthy of a Michigan degree. I'd rather focus on getting rid of the Boubacar Cissokos and Brendan Gibbons of the world rather than making every recruit an engineering student.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:22 AM ^
You've basically got a guy who sounds like he's never watched a single football game in his entire life already bitching about how much time he is wasting on this damn "sports stuff".
Best case, he will hire an AD and then leave sports alone because he clearly doesn't know and or want anything to do wtih them.
Worst case, he has some polyannic view of what he can accomplish with this "integration" of sports and will try some really stupid stuff that won't work. I don't disagree with him in theory, but I suspect in practice he has absolutely no idea how to actually make any of the things he is thinking about work without doing some significant damage to our athletic programs. Not that our athletes shouldn't strive for academic excellence too, but there is ALWAYS friction between atheltics and academics, and I fear that this upheaval is going to bring every slighed academic out of the woodwork to try and grab their pound of flesh in the new world order. Some reform will probably be a good thing, but a lot of people will look at this as a chance to de-fang the athletic program.
There is a TON of jealousy in acadamia over the fact that 95% of public only cares about the athletic programs.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:37 AM ^
The main job of the University has to be the main job of the University: research and teaching for the public good. That's what Schlissel's consistently said, and he's absolutely right.
He's also admitted that he's not a sports guy. He's being honest. That's good. He's also said that he's been to football games and that he now understands the value of athletics to the university. I take him at his word.
There is zero downside to a University president saying that academics are important. The alternative is pretty much Gordon Gee and none of us wants that.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:48 AM ^
There is no downside to him SAYING all this stuff.
The probem comes when people who know nothing about things decide they are "fed up" with the thing they know nothing about and decide that it must radically change to fit some image in their head of "something better", even though they really know nothing about it.
Now, like I said, best case is he just goes out and gets a good AD and stays the hell out of the way. But worst case is that he decides athletics has run amok and that he must "save" the university from what athletics has become. I'm not against a somewhat more tightly integrated athletic department, but there is a REASON that the athletic department is so completely separate from the rest of the university. I think if you could ask Don Canham about it, he would say that that is the only way it can possibly really work.
If the extent of this is to put people into the Athletic Department who are a little less hostile to the academic side of UM, then that probably isn't a bad thing. If the extent of this is to reign in the athletic department and give more control over it to academia at UM, I think that could be very bad.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:16 PM ^
Not yet, at least. The AD needs to work with the rest of the University is basically what he said, and work with people who are in charge of things that they're in charge of (i.e., academics who are in charge of academic integrity). That seems unobjectionable to me. The Athletic Department can't be in charge of academic affairs, that much is clear.
Schlissel's a smart dude. Even if he thinks that college athletics are out of control (and I would agree with him), he knows that one man can't overhaul the entire system. He has to play the cards that he is dealt.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:49 PM ^
as he doesn't fight a one man battle to "save' Michigan from the evils of college athletics, then OK.
As I said beore, I don't disagree with him in theory. I just gave up on all of this stuff being completely legit about 20 years ago. Big time college athletics will never be what a guy like Schlissel wants it to be, or what it should be. It will always consist of schools taking marginal to sub-marginal academic kids who are awesome at sports and nursing them through school. At least, for the schools that want to win. If you don't want to play that game, go to the Ivys.
And that's at the GOOD schools. We don't need to get into what the cheaters are doing.
As you said, Schlissel is smart, and I'm hoping he's just venting a bit about how frustrating all of this is. The problem I see is if he starts thinking he CAN change things, starting at Michigan. Because that is a massive losing battle. All he will do is ruin Michigan. Michigan can't fight the tide by ourselves. Honestly, all we can do is try to always be honorable in a really dirty, slimy system.
November 11th, 2014 at 3:28 PM ^
You're interpreting as general a critique that's very targeted and specific.
Schlissel's lines about academic oversight are targeted at an athletic department that previously had been
1. Poaching donors from the academic side of the university, breaking long standing agreements that the AD would not impinge on those donors.
2. Blocking faculty oversight of student-athlete curriculum, which is legitimately within the faculty's shared governance purview.
This is very much targeted at the AD Brandon ran, vis a vis the rest of the university, not some generalized view of athletics and academics in the broader world.
November 11th, 2014 at 7:28 PM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 11:45 AM ^
I am hoping that Schlissel's public comments are truthful and he really does understand how much athletics means to the Michigan community at large. There's no better way for Schlissel to get on the bad side of that whole community than to completely bungle this dual job search.
I think we all absolutely appreciate academics having a prominent role at Michigan - we are one of the world's best after all and many of us bear degrees from said institution - but Michigan can be elite at both academics and athletics. We have been for over 100 years. Schlissel would make a grave mistake to demphasize athletics
November 11th, 2014 at 12:17 PM ^
I suspect he is being honest and does understand it. There are politics involved in every organization. It just so happens that a large part of politics of the University of Michigan is tied into the Football Program.
I have been very impressed with Schlissel so far and I think he gets it. He may not love it, but he understands the situation. I feel confident that the Regents are providing feedback as well.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:31 PM ^
I was impressed by his public comments on the situation too, which is why I remain hopeful despite the fact that these comments don't strike me as overly positive.
I'm hoping he is able to find an AD who can strike a balance with academics without that balance eating away at the general athletic excellence of our programs. Unfortunately, sometimes this is a zero-sum game. Kids only have so much time they can be awake. Academics should NEVER be marganilized, but there are going to be trade-offs. Hell, everyone who goes to college makes trade-offs that affects their academics. Ours just aren't public.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:00 PM ^
It's a losing battle, I know, but I have a Michigan degree and it's worth something.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:15 PM ^
I have a Michigan degree too. With honors even. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jealousy
Envy and Jealousy are synonyms.
Envy and jealousy are very close in meaning. Envy denotes a longing to possess something awarded to or achieved by another: "to feel envy when a friend inherits a fortune." Jealousy, on the other hand, denotes a feeling of resentment that another has gained something that one more rightfully deserves: "to feel jealousy when a coworker receives a promotion
I believe Jealousy fits perfectly here, thank you. Please take your language parsing and degree waving elsewhere.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:10 PM ^
My take is that Schlissel is lamenting the fact that Athletics is taking up so much of his time ("time sink") and it is a small portion of his overall responsibilities. I think what he is saying is that he wants to right person identified and empowered to handle the Athletic Department so he can get back to his overall charter.
The quickest way to stop the "time sink" is to resolve the AD question with the right person and then the current or future AD (perhaps Hackett if permanent) will resolve the coach issue with the Football team. I do think he recognizes that this will continue to take up too much of his time in the future if he sticks with the status quo by keeping Hoke as the coach.
Hire the right AD and the right coach and most of this distraction goes away. It falls back into its rightful place as an extracurricular activity for the University as a whole.
I also noted his comments about the irrational and emotional nature of athletics. Athletics in general is based on competition and emotion by the fact that they a physical endeavors, but they also create a lifelong bond to the University through that emotional attachment.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:22 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 11:34 AM ^
You honestly believe that throwing around a ball has the same academic validity as studying math or writing?
November 11th, 2014 at 12:56 PM ^
You don't go to play school.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:24 AM ^
The revenue doesn't matter to them. They see the U has an $8 billion (with a B!) endowment and figuer whatever athletics brings in is couch-cushion money.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:33 AM ^
Is it too much to have Alabama's football team and Harvard's academics? I feel like everyone is always trying to bring down the other. At Michigan we shouldn't oversign or pay for recruits but I'm not opposed to the juco if he's improved his grades and is a good guy. Basically I want a team of good men who can ball. If they want to do kinesiology then cool. We need team chemistry and need to focus on the quality of the person not if they have a 22 on their ACT or 26.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:37 AM ^
If you're the sort of person who pines for Michigan to become Florida State. All sounded like great stuff to me.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:46 AM ^
Also, FSU had a Rhodes Scholar on their team.
November 11th, 2014 at 11:39 AM ^
November 11th, 2014 at 12:10 PM ^
This was my feeling coming away from the article as well. I've been surprised more people didnt feel the same way (and thought perhaps it was just me).
November 11th, 2014 at 11:55 AM ^
Here are a couple of interesting pieces on admission scores of atheletes at various schools
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/01/us/college-scores/
http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2008/12/30/athletes-s…
Michigan does not cooperate with the CNN piece and the second site is from '08, but I'd be surprised if much has changed.
FOOTBALL SAT SCORES:
THE TOP 10
School, Average
- Georgia Tech, 1028
- Oregon State, 997
- Michigan, 997
- Virginia, 993
- Purdue, 974
- Indiana, 973
- Hawaii, 968
- California, 967
- Colorado, 966
- Iowa, 964
THE BOTTOM 10
- School, Average
- Oklahoma State, 878
- Louisville, 878
- Memphis, 890
- Florida, 890
- Texas Tech, 901
- Arkansas, 910
- Texas A&M, 911
- Mississippi State, 911
- Washington State, 916
- Michigan State, 917
November 11th, 2014 at 12:42 PM ^
Florida surprises me a lot there. I thought they had higher standards.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:48 PM ^
Out-of-state admissions are capped at UF at 10% by state law, so they have to take a higher percentage of in-state students than most places. They're stuck with whoever they can get from Florida, basically.
November 11th, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^
But for athletes, does that matter?
November 11th, 2014 at 11:58 AM ^
for Athletics? Stanford? Notre Dame? (ND had an academic scandal....) Harvard? Brown?
Ironically Bernard Muir the current AD at Stanford is a Brown graduate and former basketball player there. He followed Bob Bowlsby at Stanford. Bowlsby hired Harbaugh. Stanford has won the Director's cup countless times and IMHO is a great benchmark for Michigan.
I know we all believe we are the benchmark. So, work through that arrogance feeling for a minute and come to terms that we are rebuilding for football and don't have near as many Director's cups as Stanford.
I'm confident that Jim Harbaugh could find and recruit tough smart kids to make the Michigan Football team a perennial power again.
And coaches coming to Michigan from Stanford has precedent.
Fielding Yost was head coach of Stanford in 1900 and went 7-2-1 then came to Michigan.
Jim Harbaugh overall record 29-21 at Stanford and hopefully will return to Michigan.
Can other posters tell us what Jim Harbaugh's player graduation rate was during his tenure at Stanford? I'm assuming it was great but don't know. Assuming it is that could coordinate directly with Schlissel's desire for better academic/athletic grad rates.
I really feel Schlissel and Harbaugh are going to agree a lot more than they disagree on things.
Hail.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:11 PM ^
The football program is fucked for a long time, guys*. Any other reading of that article is off base.
"Look at Stanford" is not an approrpriate retort.
*Unless Harbaugh is hired
November 11th, 2014 at 12:35 PM ^
[derp]
November 11th, 2014 at 12:22 PM ^
The President serves the Regents. The AD serves the President. The football coach serves the AD. The President is making it clear that academic integrity is a priority for the AD. But if you think competing for championships will ever not be a priority for the football coach at the University of Michigan, you are living in fantasy land. If this requirement does not come from the AD or the President, it will most definitely will come from the Regents.The football coach has to be able to satisfy both priorities.
While academics may be an equal priority, Hoke has clearly demonstrated incompetency at competing for champtionships. The task for the new AD is to find a coach who can fill both measures of competency.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:40 PM ^
I don't know about you guys, but I really like how Schlissel is handling all of this. If we can move this thing more towards being a leader in balancing academics and athletics instead of joining the SEC arms race, and we can do it with Harbaugh, I'm irrationally excited.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:57 PM ^
What if we don't get Harbaugh? You think Dan Mullen is dropping everything and coming to a school with the standards outlined by Schlissel? Patterson? Stoops? Gundy?
We now must throw a Hail Mary to land Harbaugh. No coach in their right mind is heading here with this hanging over their head.
November 11th, 2014 at 12:53 PM ^