Is anyone else really scared that Al Borges is going to ruin Denard? I have this awful feeling that Denard will be a shell of his former self this season. I know the coaches all have been blowing smoke out of their asses about "utilizing talent" and such, but I have a feeling Borges will stubbornly try to turn Denard into something he isn't - much like squeezing a square peg into a round hole. Any thoughts?
Scared for Denard
Find a new hobby to occupy your time rather than obsess in minutae beyond your control
So, i kind of agree...But isn't everything we talk about on here kinda beyond our control?
That's why I really only object when it clearly manifests itself in negative feelings for people (the poster described himself as "scared"). If this is just giving you fear, agita, nausea, etc...why not find something else?
Most of us can say "Man, I hope Denard kicks ass next year" and be content with that hope. Clearly, Banksy cannot do that.
I was a well known Denard skeptic going into this last year. I questioned his ability to be more than a glorified RB. Although he didn't suddenly become Tom Brady in the pocket, he more than impressed me with his improvement as a passer. With that kind of desire and work ethic, I have decided never to doubt him again. I believe he will continue to improve mechanically, that he will take less of a beating scrambling than he did as a straight runner, and that he will be great as a junior in this offense and a phenom as a senior.
He will b awsomer
I don't see this ending very well.
If votes counted the OP would find himself here...
Question: Would it be better to be in Bolivian or in Libya right now?
When thinking about it, my head assploded... It is a conundrum for the ages...
I guess it depends on the Bolivian.
I have to go with Lybia because Obolivia is just to scary and lonley.
Denard is a respected QB.
Borges is a respected OC.
Borges says, "Throw ball here." Denard throws. Everyone is happy.
Now, will he get the most out of him possible? I dunno. He may be better under Borges for all we know. But ruin him? He's not going to try to turn him into a statue.
FYI, this shit is about to get real. And by real I mean really nasty.
FWIW (and that means not much), I'm in the middle. Denard will not put up the same yards, but there is a chance he will be a better quarterback. Honestly, I think you need to look at the RB corps to see what type of season we're going to have. If Denard doesn't run it as much and the RB's don't step up, we're in big trouble.
It will be easier for the RBs to step up in this kind of offense. There wont be as much pressure for Denard to get the 1st every time. Of course D is the man under pressure but it will open up more opportunites for other positions to shine.
I agree about the running backs. Personally, I don't want to see Denard, put up the same numbers. I want to see, a running back like we had with Hart, Perry, etc... getting over 1000 yds and not rely on our QB to be our only means of rushing and passing offense.
No. Denard will be good. Borges will be good. We will be good.
People shouldn't vilify this OP. Just like when we were 5-0 last year, people shouldn't have vilified the "here we go again second half swoon" OPs.
Bottom line the system adjustment means uncertainty.
You're right - we don't know how it will turn out.
That's still not a reason to post needless hair-pulling. This is supposed to be fun. If year-round coverage is giving the poster agita, he/she should find something else to occupy their time.
were they really OPs? Hmmnnn
I agree that nobody knows how it will turn out.
But, I suspect that the OP is being villified because this exact topic has been discussed to death, and since (as you point out) nobody has a clue, what more is there to say.
If something coming out of the spring practice led to this thread (as in, "reports out of practice indicate that Denard is [excelling / struggling] with the new offense"), I could see it. But this is just the same discussion we have seen countless times.
super excited about Hoke/Borges (though I'm a huge fan of Mattison), Denard is an all-American. His naturual abilities are enough to where he's still gonna make a huge impact on the team and its games. PERIOD.
Totally. Borges is all like "Sure Denard's good but I think it would help me do my job better by making him less good so I'll do that" and Brady Hoke is all like, "Yeah whatever Borges" because Hoke is the head coach but doesn't really care what goes on on his team.
Points need to be back up to encourage posts like this, and discourage some of the dumber things that go on.
Coaches are some of the most stubborn people in the world. They don't have that "by any means necessary" attitude. They want to win their way and that's what I'm afraid of... yet another transition in scheme that will be jarring and not utilize our talent the right way. I don't get why everyone negs everyone for simply bringing up a serious concern. If you disagree you don't have to neg bomb me - you can simply respond using words.
He used words.
That's what you're responsing to.
I would recommend you go to YouTube (or look on here for BoyzindaPahokee's post with the video) and watch the SDSU/Navy game. Borges ran the read-option in the first half, and took something like ~50% of snaps out of the shotgun. There's a post on the board somewhere with these statistics from that game.
Borges truly runs multiple sets; he isn't RR or Carr.
Edit: Upvoting your own post is not a classy move at all. You know it never counts, right?
I know Rich Rod was exactly like this. I hope that Hoke and his staff can adjust things accordingly in order to give us the greatest chance for success.
Coaches are some of the most stubborn people in the world. They don't have that "by any means necessary" attitude.
im so tired of this stupid thought...get over it please...
1. You need to calm down.
2. What was the "legitimate question"?
telescope. He will be fine even if Van Bergan sacks him in practice a few times.
New name, same shit stirring.
I'm more scared for you than I am for Denard
Maybe I am overly optimistic but I feel like with this type of offensive system Denard can be even more dangerous. I feel like hes most effective when he is rolling out of the pocket and scrambling not necessarily on designed runs. And as effective as Denard was-having running backs gaining the yards instead of him sounds great to me. The pace of the offense last year was detrimental and I refuse to believe Denard can last 2 more seasons taking that many hits.
He very very rarely rolled out of the pocket on a designed pass and chose to run. Most of his big runs were on designed runs.
are you under the impression that the complexities of a QB draw escape an OC with 20+ years experience
I would definitely agree with the point you are making but is that such an unreasonable assumption anymore?
I think our O will be fine but I don't take for granted a coaches ability to understand schemes outside of their comfort zone.
Jason Campbell rushed for more yards last year as a Raider then he did at Auburn with Borges as his O coordinator. Campbell had the benefit of having to top 5 draft picks in the backfield with him for the D to key on. I'm pretty sure that's not the case here now.
I can think of one thing that Robinson and Campbell have in common that dupes many people into thinking Campbell must be mobile.
Hint: it probably makes the same people think Robinson and Campbell must be good dancers and basketball players.
Why on earth would you run any called running play for Jason Campbell other than a QB sneak?
It's like claiming Jared Lorentzens' OC didn't know what a QB Draw was.
Double post sorry!
Denard is 6'0, so unless Borges is a complete idiot, he's going to have plenty of plays where Denard will roll out of the pocket to better see downfield. This play has been in the Michigan playbook long before Rich Rod or Brady Hoke ever showed up on campus (see: Brian Griese to Jerame Tuman). The cool thing about this play with Denard is he could also tuck it and run if things look good.
I agree to a point. The rollout will need to be a big part of the offense. The only problem is when people start saying it is great because denard is a great runner so he can just tuck it if the pass isn't there. Robinson showed very little ability to tuck and run on a designed pass play last year, so I hope this is one of the things he gets better at this offseason. The teams that did well against us made denard a pass first QB, so I am hoping he tucks and runs this year much more. Robinson has never been a "scramble" QB, so I'm hoping that is because he has just been hesitant and that will change with more reps. I personally hope we still see plenty of designed run plays for Robinson....that's when he is at his best.
Practice just started a few days ago. Go away
Borges is not going to run him on almost every running play like last year but use the other backs. Temper your fear.
Ha! Yeah, they really "ruined" him. That's like saying teams did a great job defending Wilt Chamberlin when they held him to 35 points.
First of all, why post this?
Second, I seem to remember Denard spending a lot of time off the field with minor injuries last year. Hopefully with Borges, we get all of the big jaw dropping Denard TD runs off QB sneaks and bootlegs, and non of the numerous predictable up-the-gut QB keepers that punished Denard's nimble but not-very-big body.
Honestly it starts up front with the O-line if they give the qb's time to execute and RB's gapes to run in they shouldnt have a problem. (easier said then done)
FYI Denard took snapes under center in High school. Also look at Taylor at VTech and Vick this year both were taking snaps under center and it doesnt effect there numbers that much it just makes them a better qb's.
At the end of the day its about Execution on the Offense and Defense of side of the ball if this team really want to improve.
I was scared for Denard's list of injuries to keep growing, and growing and growing
there are magic unicorns fighting in the forest with the last tribe of the elusive BigFoot, and no matter who wins the fight, they're still in danger of being crushed by the giant meteor that may or may not fall out of the sky and doom the earth forever.
....are you saying that there is a whole tribe of BIGFOOTS?!!
Personally I prefer the plural form of bigfeet.
Or, for the Canucks, Sasquatches...
aint' she Gus?
Own the T-Shirt...
That storm does not look good . . .
"No man, team, all that, etc"
this makes no sense. How would someone like Borges, who has literally written books about developing quarterbacks, ruin Denard?
I would like to know in detail how he can accuse "the coaches" of prevarication. Gut feeling? Insider knowledge? Tell us moar!
when I was watching the first practice video and studying the background to see if I could spot any visiting recruits, it was impossible because the camera was following Denard, and he was running so fast the background became a complete blur.
Read 1: Is Roundtree open underneath? Yes.
Read 1: Is Roundtree open underneath? No.
Read 2: Is Stonum open over the top? Yes.
Read 1: Is Roundtree open underneath? No.
Read 2: Is Stonum open over the top? No.
Read 3: Is there enough room for me to run and not have anyone in the area until I get 20 yards down field? Yes.
Start over at step 1.
I realize this is a somewhat joking post, but Borges actually uses a long to short read philosophy.
I'm also going on record as predicting the two starters will be Hemingway and Stonum with Roundtree as the 3.
First of all, Denard will likely improve his quarterback skills because of his work ethic and having a year of starting experience. Second, Borges is a pretty good coordinator and I am confident he will put a decent offensive package together to help Denard and the team succeed.
That being said, I understand where your fear comes from. The chance of Borges and Hoke having an offense, and by extention a Denard, that would have been as good as Rodriguez in 2011 is slim to none.
On the flip side however, I believe the chance of them having a bad offense, given the talent that returns, is next to zero as well.
All that really matters is that we win more games, which I think will happen.
I know your concern comes from not having the correct personnel for the offense and not the offense itself, but SDSU did average more PPG last year under Borges than we did. Just sayin'..............
I feel the opposite way. Last year the offense (ie Denard) became increasingly one-dimensional and predictable. Zone-read again and again. What he needs is more diversity. Borges will offer more of that, while also keeping him from getting hit so often.
I think we watched a different team, because Denard very rarely kept on a ZR. A lot of those runs were probably just handoffs.
Wrong. The offense didnt put up 700 yards against Wisconsin, Ohio State, and Mississippi State, so it doesn't matter if they had good defenses, the offense became predictable and lame. Zone read....over and over.
Although here is a thought....what happens if half our zone read plays last year were pretty much just handoffs to the running back where denard carried out the fake to take as many defenders with him as possible? Would the zone read then be as acceptable as a regular handoff, or would it still be predictable?
That doesn't make me wrong champ. That means we're contesting two different points. I was contesting the notion that all we ran was the ZR, which just isn't true.
Ha! Sorry, I was agreeing with you. Sorry if the sarcasm wasn't apparent. I think a large portion of our "zone read" plays were merely handoffs to the running back with denard carrying out a fake....I think he wasn't really going to run on a large portion of those plays no matter what the D end did.
No harm done. I'm a bit cranky since it's essay grading season as the end of the quarter approaches for this guy.
Face it; they know what type of player they are getting, and to shoehorn him into something he is not is disaster (GERG defense circa 2010), I do not believe Hoke is dumb enough to say Denard stay in the pocket and play fiddle sticks, RR seemed to be too damn hard headed sometimes and so far the new regime has not given us any reason to doubt them.
Do I believe another athlete of Denards caliber will ever be a QB @ Michigan again? Hell no, once D-Rob is gone we're back to the statues with arm cannons.
Another season of square peg round hole talk!
Mods, since our neg votes don't carry any weight right now, please just delete this thread.
You know what I'm afraid of? Our 193-pound QB getting so banged up from massive overuse that he can't finish many games, including OSU.
Still kind of scary. When Oregon discovered that Masoli was good it was because the (4?) guys in front of him on the depth chart were hurt.
I hated chad henne being hurt more than half his senior year resulting in less than stellar play (comparatively) when he was in, including the osu game where he begged to take snaps from the gun because every snap he took under center popped his shoulder out of socket....but I sure as hell didn't blame the pro-set or the I-formation for his injuries.
Here is my concern. For some reason people presume as a postulate that Borges is a good Ocoordinator. If so, why is a "good" Ocoordinator stuck at SDSU when he should be in the prime of his career? The only time Borges ever did anything in my opinion was when he had a backfield stacked with NFL talent. Despite, the subject line, I'm not really scared about Borges because in my opinion I feel I know what he is about. He is a ham & egger with little upside. I'll take my beatdown if he proves me otherwise. The hope for this team is on the defesive side where the coaching talent is.
Now did DR run too much? Remeber, the zone read is on the QB. He has the choice to run or give to the RB. I believe one of our problems is we did not get any production from our RB's. Shaw was hurt, Vincent Smith was still a year removed from an ACL, and Hopkins had the fumbles. You have a RB step up and the carries take care of themselves. The solution unfortunately plays for Alabama now.
Now here is the problem with the Borges system in my opinion. DR can make the defense adjust to him because he may be running the ball on any down. If a defense knows to a high likelyhood that DR is not running the ball, they can adjust accordingly. For all the talk of power football, this is not a power team. Most of the linemen are more adept at getting out in space then pancaking. There is no fullback and the best TE is a better receiver then blocker. Every time Bourges calls a power run, will be a victory for the defense. Hoke can talk all about passion. But passion does not beat physics. I think Lewan can do some pancaking. The others are better at deception and chipping.
DR's great strength is his feet or their threat. If you make him a passer first, he is just a normal QB who happens to be short. If the response is scramble, well now our offense has degenerated into the QB ad libbing. Anything can happen because there is no design. A sound defense can thwart that because they know what they are doing and the QB does not.
By defintion, if you take Pat White, Cameron Newton, Vince Young, Dan Persa, etc and put them in the Borges system they are going to have less of an impact. There is no way around it. DR may improve a lot as a QB. It does not matter because he is no longer doing what his strength is. Michigan is most lkely better off putting Gardner in as QB as he has the size, arm, and still has the feet to scramble. The power run is going to fizzle in my opinion because the players are not there.
Just my 2 cents
I can't understand why people think this will ruin him...He is a gifted athlete who will be on the field if he is healthy. Do you really think Denard would fit in the NFL running RR's offense? RR's offense does not exist in the NFL. Denard wouldn't last a preseason football game running RR's offense in the NFL.
Denard is perfect for College Football. He can run RR's offense (proven last year) and he will run our offense this year. I'm confident he will be just as dangerous this year under center as he was last year. When he rolls out, lanes will open, screens will go for 40 yards, and the play action pass will be redefined!
Denard being put in this situation is the best thing that ever happened to him if he hopes to play QB in the NFL. He will be in a system that can teach him what the next level will be like. I know people get frustrated when the comparison is made, but it will be a very similar offense that the Eagles run with Vick.
If Denard wants to play at the next level, he is blessed to have the coaches he has at this point. He made his name for himself under RR. Now he has the opportunity to impress the NFL scouts over the next couple years if he can make this transition. Otherwise, he will go to the NFL watching kick-offs go over his head into the stands with the new Kick-Off rules being implemented.
I love watching Denard. I can’t wait to see how well he does this year. He is going to be a nightmare for opposing DC’s. It is basically like facing two offenses. Last year was one offense. This year, teams will fear last year and what he can do, but still have to prepare for a new system. What a nightmare for the DC’s we face!!!
I just had to double-check that i'm not on a Scout message board. You may disagree with the original poster, but on what basis are 57 people voting the post down? Insufficient optimism? I don't think it is an unreasonable/uninformed question. We have an unreal talent and he is currently focusing on backpedaling from an under-center snap. I think those are simply two established facts. I can see that either being a cause for concern or a fine development. It depends on whether you think Denard will be stifled when he's not in the shotgun or whether he will become a more well-rounded player that is just as dangerous and easier to keep healthy. I think reasonable minds can go either way.
I usually don't like people who are negative but I don't try to chase their posts off the board unless there is an independent basis for doing that (e.g. they're not informed, just trying to provoke, etc.). Not the case here.
I think the reason this is getting negged so much (and the reason I negged) is because this is literally the same discussion the board had a hundred times over when Borges was brought on. This is all speculation, with no new content, and it's been over-talked a ridiculous amount.
When we're on a topic so much that I can tell you views of posters I hardly ever interact with, especially when an OP has nothing new (like a new angle, new information), there will be a lot of hostility generated simply because everyone has opinions that will not be changed without some evidence. Until at least the Spring Game, there will be none, so I think most people want to just hold off talking until then.
Picture the first week in November in 2008 or what it will be in 2012: it's not like a candidate says anything new; the same stuff is all over the news constantly. At that point, I think a lot of people just want it over with until you can point out a winner.
Not to mention, this Banksy dude started the same exact topic multiple times when he was known as Jesus Christ.
This is the second time this week you've made connections to past accounts for me. How do you do it?
I'm not complaining, it makes sense when I thought about Jesus Christ and his posts, and how he's gone now.
I just remember the thread where he finally caved and changed his name.
Well that makes sense then.
Just making sure you weren't Hannibal or Sherlock Holmes or something.
By the way, I would check out MichiganStudent's thread about Hoke's event last night. Denard and Molk were primarily under-center (well Molk wasn't actually under-center, obviously, but whatever) for most of their high school careers and are both comfortable with it, according to Hoke.
Never seen that option here
for the rest of the BIG TEN.
Denard is Weapon X incarnate. If you think this coaching staff won't unleash him, you're nuts.
The reason for the overkill is because it is what is unknown. You do not see everyone bent out of shape about the Michigan Defense despite there being huge question marks. Why? Because everyone trusts Matison. For better or worse Borges is the flashpoint. He is not trusted and his track record compared to Mattison's is far inferior. So I believe it is reasonable to have concerns. If your a Ford employee and its 2008, imagine your consternation if you learned your new CEO and corporate team came over from Staples. There would be some talk at the watercooler.
I got two words for you my man....MICHAEL VICK
That is the mold of player that Denard can evolve into with this new offense. He has a strong enough arm to become an elite passer and has the speed to make defenses pay if the play breaks down.
Denard is faster than Vick already and they are the same size/weight. Denard just has to develop the mindset and the football knowledge/experience.
Denard is a superior athlete and extremely hard worker. Everyone witnessed the change from his freshmen to sophomore season. He was noticeably better. If Denard didn't have to run 20+ times per game to save our ass he could have had even better numbers. Borges has been around this long for a reason.. He knows what he's doing.