i think the ire is when people don't announce upfront about the hyphen and carry on as if they went to the mothership.
FWIW. Michigan doesn't seem inclined to get re-involved.
i think the ire is when people don't announce upfront about the hyphen and carry on as if they went to the mothership.
I don't think that's true at all. I've always said I graduated from UM-Dearborn. I think the only major educational difference between the three campuses is that Dearborn and Flint don't do much research where as Ann Arbor does; which is why Flint and Dearborn don't offer as many science-related degrees.
In the end it gets you into the Alumni Association, you can get student tickets, a degree signed by Mary Sue and it opens great doors for your career. For my field, the difference was minimal.
and also why would there be significantly different admissions standards and professor CVs between the schools if they were academically similar.
not to sound rude but i think there is a significant academic difference between UM-AA and UM-D/UM-F
No, the students still have access to tickets.
And I would agree that there is an academic difference in certain fields. Like I said, I don't think I would go to the business school and think it's the same as Ross. I also wouldn't get a science degree from Flint or Dearborn, but there are certain fields that Ann Arbor simple doesn't offer and some things that are probably on an equal level. Most of the profs I had taught at both institutions.
I'm not sure the admissions standards are that different. I'm not 100% on this but I think you needed a 3.5 minimum to get into Dearborn out of high school and like a minimum of a 26 on the ACT.
Undergraduates 1,683 Graduates 48.6% Men 51.4% Women 95.1% Michigan Residents 19.3% Students of color 3.0% International students 3.1-3.9: The HS GPA for the middle 50% of incoming freshmen. (Average 3.5 GPA) 21-27: The ACT score for the middle 50% of incoming freshmen. (Average 24)
I am new to the mgoblog. Thanks to the ops for a great site.
This is user defined. GO BLUE
I do not have a dog in this fight but I will comment anyway. IMHO A2 is for the undergrad college experience with all the trimmings. Not many schools are as good save for Duke and Stanford, USC. (I have been to all).
UMD/UMF is for communters. A2 does not offer many nights and weekend classes. Although it is getting better. So is a night/weekend student worse than a full time student?
I am considering getting a second masters from Michigan. So I looked around and found that Rackham has a program that I am interested in. the only issue is that it is in UMD. The degree is still from Rackham. The classes are all on line. So does it matter that it is being administered from Dearborn, supervised by Rackham, but delivered on-line? The bottom line is that it meets the requirements of UM. If I graduate, I will say that I have a Michigan degree.
Now, did I get to experience the A2 traditions? No. Did I get to party all Friday night on gameday Saturday? No. Did I get to defend the Diag? No. Those experiences are wonderful for those who participated. Does that make them a better student or potential employee? No.
I chose to go to a CC then transfer to a private college in Michigan. i am a 4th generation Michigander, who paid taxes to UM since its inception. I am over 40 and have paid taxes to UM for 20 years. I stayed in the state after college. i raised my family as Michigan Wolverines. I watched the 1969 "game' with my father and I met Bo in the 80s. I am a Michigan Wolverine. I think I am more of a Wolverine than some out of state students or people that leave the state. I go to the football games, I go to the softball games. How many A2 students can say that?
So even if I received a degree that said UMD, who cares, I would still be a Michigan Wolverine. I agree that the requirments to admission is less for UMD/UMF but does that disqualify them?
I was in NC on business recently. I had to go to Boone NC and wear my M garb on campus to show that we are not easily put down and that I was a Michigan Wolverine. I went on Campus and had a few at the local OGradys pub. Most people were giving me sh!t but I took it in stride. They even bought me a few. How many others can say that? (Boone NC is the home to Appalachian St.) So what defines a Michigan Wolverine? It is user defined. But I am definately a Michigan Wolverine.
And as always...GO BLUE!!!
Honestly, somebody who has to bring others down in order to elevate themselves has problems with low self-esteem. Stop knocking these students ...
If you take the Michigan out of "The Univeristy of Michigan - Dearborn", then I guarantee you that the number of students enrolling in those schools goes down significantly. It is precisely because of the name of the school why many students choose to attend it - they can get the University of Michigan degree without the cost, strict enrollment, and distance...
the OP said/made it seem/alluded the levels of education were parallel. i disagreed.
I go to Dearborn and whenever someone asks where I go to school my answer is always "U-M Dearborn." I feel it wouldn't be right to say just U-M. I'm definitely happy with my Dearborn education, but I agree that it should be identified as a satellite school.
They play an important role in their communities. Not to say that another public university in those locations couldn't do the same, but UM-D and UM-F are what's there.
Amusing anecdote: a government agency audited some part of Flint's operations, and it wasn't until after the fact that they admitted that they were mistaken, and had intended to audit the flagship campus in Ann Arbor. Ha ha. Somebody at the agnecy got the address/contact information for Flint instead of AA, and that dopey error spared UM-AA a boatload of work.
who i didn't find out for months were UM-F grads and had chimed in on weak MSU academics repeatedly. i had a similar reaction.
Having graduated from the D campus, I can honestly say that you get what you put in. My best friend also graduated from there and we both went on to graduate from Med/Psyc PhD programs ranked in the top 10 in our fields. I received a presidential fellowship competing against students from schools more highly respected than AA. Meanwhile, another of my good friends who went to the AA campus is working as a night watch for a local museum. We decided to put in the work, he decided that going to AA meant that he was already successful. Would I have loved to go to the AA campus....EVERY student at the satelites would (if they are being honest). For my financial situation and major, I thought it best to graduate without debt so that loans (if necessary) could be taken in graduate school.
That being said, from my experience it is clear that these examples are the exception at the D campus, not the rule. Generally speaking, most honest people would admit that many (if not most) D students glide through their 4 years. Not everyone (don't get upset), but I found that most students were of the "well I guess I'm supposed to do this after high school" variety.
Wish more students looked at college as a means to becoming successful, not a measure of success. Just my two cents.
I think the majority of kids, no matter the school, have the "well I'm supposed to go here" mentality.
That may be true, but I certainly noticed a difference from my time visiting friends at the AA campus v. my time attending class at the D campus...and later in graduate school. I would wager that students at traditionally prestigious universities tend to be more focused than students at traditional commuter schools.
I am currently a UM Dearborn student and I will start by saying in no way is a Dearborn or Flint degree the same as an Ann Arbor one. I am proud of my Dearborn education and I do believe it is a good school, but Ann Arbor is arguably the most elite public university in the country with only Cal-Berkeley fighting for that spot. It would be my dream to get my MBA from Ann Arbor as I'm an accounting major at Dearborn.
With that said, the main thing that I believe Dearborn has over almost any other university in Michigan is its business internship program. I was able to secure a well paying internship with one of the largest corporations in Michigan through the program. As someone stated above, Dearborn is very well connected to local businesses, especially Ford.
I think MaizeAndBlueWahoo may want to have a word with you. Other than that you make good points.
I included the word arguably because I figured it might come up. I understand that there are many other elite public universities. I guess my point was that overall, looking at the big picture and not a particular field of study, those two universities are the cream of the crop. Then again, I am no where near qualified to make that assessment.
Virginia, UNC and UCLA are pretty much always mentioned alongside U-M and UC-Berkeley. Texas is inching into the conversation as well.
Hmm. UVa more than UNC, although maybe that's changing. I think he's largely right, though--U-M and Berkeley are widely considered, among academics, to be the top institutions, with UCLA close behind and UVa up there too. Wisconsin probably ought to be, but isn't. It's a matter of breadth and depth and research activity.
It's so hard to differentiate between any of these universities across the board. They're all great, but most people wouldn't think that one of the top immunology programs in the country could be at the University of Alabama Birmingham (a satellite campus for what it’s worth). Similarly, a University of Texas satellite campus currently has the most Nobel laureates on staff for any academic medical institution in the world (4). Along the same lines, Berkeley doesn't have a medical campus so if that is relevant to you, I'd look elsewhere. The difference between UM, Berkeley, UNC, UVA, etc. in sum is negligible. However, the difference in each department is much more quantifiable.
The equation isn't exact and probably doesn't make that much sense. Anyway, in the end, I'm pretty sure it's all about making money. While making money is the bottom line, it also doesn't hurt that they have been given land grants, and these satellite campuses help these communities they are located in. They help others that couldn't otherwise get a degree from AA (either because of cost or academics) to get a Michigan degree, though it may not be perceived as equivalent. U of M isn't the only one doing it. On a much different way, even MSU has a satellite campus in Dubai. It is a way for both schools to spread their name, help communities, and in the end, hopefully make money. If the schools become better recognized, then the more power to them, in the end, IME, it probably all comes down to the dollar amount, the perceived value (ie helping communities and people get degrees) and overall perception for the main campus though.
I think this is really the root of the problem and what bothers Ann Arbor students/alums about the relationship. The university administration is essentially selling the "Michigan" brand name to differentiate the satellite campuses from the directional and other state schools. They think (rightly so, I'm sure) that offering a "University of Michigan" degree and the right to buy football tickets and join the same alumni association (which is actually a business that anyone can join) will attract more students/dollars than they would otherwise get.
Rather than develop a distinct identity (as say Minnesota-Duluth does), which I think would please a lot of proud Dearborn/Flint alums, the administration has chosen to simply piggy-back on the reputation of the main campus and sell Dearborn and Flint as Michigan Light. They are more than happy to give the impression that it is the same degree or just as good and that we are all one big happy family if that means more dollars.
I think a lot of Flint/Dearborn folks would rather have their own unique identity and Ann Arbor folks understandably don't like their school being conflated with satellite campuses that are ranked behind schools like Northern Iowa (according to our friends at USNEWS). Of course none of it seems likely to change because of the money involved.
"Selling the name" is really a mischaracterization of the relationship.
I admit I sometimes have a hard time understanding the connection between the three campuses, but nothing I've ever seen or heard suggests that Flint and Dearborn are set up to be profit centers that help fill U-M's coffers. 3/4 of Dearborn undergrads need financial aid, for example. I can't believe Flint's numbers are lower.
I'm sure most students at U-M need/apply for financial aid too, but the university still does its best to advertise and attract students. I'm not saying that either school is terribly profitable, but obviously you generate more revenue the more people apply and choose to enroll in your school. Flint/Dearborn are not strongly differentiated from Ann Arbor because administrators believe that having the "Michigan" brand (as well as certain perks like football tickets and alumni association membership) attached to the schools is more attractive to potential students/customers than just being the University of Dearborn or an otherwise more independent entity.
Well, actually, UM-AA students skew pretty affluent. Less than half get financial aid. My point was, the U is not looking at these branches as a way to rake in tuition dollars hand over fist.
Both campuses were founded by the University of Michigan. It's not like they were institutions already out there, casting about for a name, and U-M said "Hey, for a price you can use our brand." U-M created them, so it's natural that they'd carry the U-M name.
I'm a little in the dark about our relation to those two campuses as well. Are UM-Flint and UM-Dearborn actually more closely tied to UM-Ann Arbor than the other public universities in the state? Are they members of the CIC (the academic wing of the Big Ten) as well?
UM-F and UM-D are both part UM ann arbor. They are separate schools technically but they are governed by Mary sue and the UM regents. The only thing that doesn't make them all the "same school" per say is that you can't take classes at the other two campuses if you go to one of them. Meaning you have to transfer to the other location if you want to switch. All three campuses share the same library network as well. UM students at any campus can go to all the libraries on all campuses or request a book from one of them. I'm not sure about the CIC and how they deal with schools in the umbrella of a school within it.
I think as a student at Ann Arbor you are allowed to take spring/summer term courses at Dearborn and transfer them over. It works like any other school, only all of the classes are clearly either approved or not approved.
So, yes they are separate schools, but you can take classes between them, just not in the same semester.
Not only do the credits xfer but the grades do too. I rolled into A2 with a 3.7 GPA when I transferred from UM-D after 3 semesters. Nice little cushion to get used to the more challenging academics!
You may be right about the classes, but I know a few people that went to UM-Flint that had to go to Ann Arbor to finish their degree in the medical field. They had to work at the hospital for credits. It may not be a class per say, but they definitely earned credits in Ann Arbor while having UM-Flint as their home campus.
I went to Dearborn to finish my Bachelors while working full-time. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the best commuter school in the state. I have never heard an UM-D student say they were on the same level as an Ann Arbor student. It is a running joke through most classes that this is not the case.
The diploma does reference Dearborn on it and it would be inappropriate not to indicate to others that you went to UM-Lite vs the real campus. But, I'm happy with the education i recieved there and for those who don't heve the luxery of being able to afford Ann Arbor or could only take evening classes it is a good alternative and the Michigan name just gives the students who went there a better chance and access to the services the main campus offers.
I regret my mediocre UM-D education almost every day. It's not a horrible school, but I could have aimed much higher. The majority of my classes were not challenging, and I think it might be literally impossible to fail a course there. The small class sizes are nice, though. I can't stand the huge lecture hall-type classes.
FTR, I live in Boston and always tell people I went to "University of Michigan-Dearborn." Without fail, their eyes immediately glaze over in confusion. So, hopefully I'm not "tarnishing" the good Michigan name for those of you who are concerned...
Definitely not tarnishing.
I had a similar thought about Flint - I pretty much breezed through my first year there and it was immediately apparent that a computer science degree from that school was not at all going to be worth what I thought it was. The ease of some of the classes and the lack of rigor was a little disheartening.
And driving an hour to school everyday got old pretty quick.
I'm not sure there is much to your analysis as you have nothing to compare that to if you haven't attended the other university. You can't say it's worse than A2 unless you went into the identical field at both institutions and compared it - which I doubt you have. Even if you transferred to A2 after a year or so, you're still comparing basic level courses to upper level courses; which, duh, are going to be harder. I really have no experience with Flint, but I can tell you that Dearborn very closely resembles the Ann Arbor campus.
The first year classes at pretty much any institution are going to be pretty easy. At that point you're taking basic math, English and science.
I attended both schools. UM-F for a year and UM-AA for four. I went into the same concentration at both schools.
I'm well aware of the differences between first-year and upper-level classes and can knowledgably differentiate the classes I took.
The first year UM-AA science labs are much more thorough and require a full lab report. UM-F's did not.
As far as computer science... the classes I took at UM-F did not transfer over because they were not rigorous enough. Professors told me this. I experienced it first-hand when I had to take the first year classes at AA (second year in Comp Sci). I spent as much time on EACH programming assignment in AA as I did on the entire course at Flint.
I took a Philosophy class at UM-F that only transfered as credit (not as a course) because it only covered the first unit of the equivalent UMAA class.
The Math was decent, though. I probably didn't work as hard in UMF math classes, but they all transfered and did a good job preparing me for Calc II and III.
I was able to knock out my English classes, 2 math classes, and a physics class. Which isn't bad. But like you said, those first semester classes are easy and the same pretty much everywhere, and the 12 credits of computer science I took at UMF went to waste.
Why does anyone even care? I don't think my Michigan degree (from AA...OMG, I'm so special) is lessened by someone else being in the school family. I mean, I'm sure there's obnoxious examples of someone trying to equate the two, and bragging about his degree...but man, coming from a Michigan grad, that would be some kettle/pot stuff to complain about. I don't see how it's harming your oh so valuable reputation to have someone saying they went to U-M (small print...Dearborn, Flint). I mean, if you got passed up for a job for someone from one of those schools, I'm guessing it's because they were better, and not because they fooled some employer into thinking that they REALLY went to that school in Ann Arbor.
I think my main point of concern - although annectdotal - was how UM-F portrayed itself as equivalent.
When I was a naive HS senior looking at school options, UM-F made the case that I would be getting a degree from Michigan. No distinction. They made it out to be like it was the same thing as the main campus. That's unfortunately not the case, but it's what I was made out to believe. Each school, in its own right, has positives and negatives. But I think the people at UM-F, in my experience, do the entire Michigan system a discredit when they perpetuate the myth that you are receiving the same education. You're not.
Par exemple, Microsoft recruits at six school in the country - Ann Arbor is one of them. Not Flint. The computer science classes I took there were laughable (Q-Basic. Seriously.) compared to the systems and networks utilized in AA.
The really scary thing is this: I'm the first of my family to graduate college. I only applied to two schools: MSU and UM-F. Had I known and better researched the truth about UM-F's academic standing, I probably would have went to MSU, been converted to a Sparty, and currently be bragging about a 2 game win streak. Alas, I went to UM-F, transferred, and save my soul.
I am from Flint, went to UMF, and I'm very proud of that. Is it ok for me to be a Michigan fan?
In the mean time I will bow down to ye superior graduates of AA and hold my head up high as a "Walmart Wolverine".
Also I'm sorry for using any tickets I've recieved to see "you're" team play.
I too am a proud Flint native and student of UMF. I wana join your Walmart Wolverine club.
We have the Dayton Family that still makes us cool.
Flint town, Flint town, Fa-fa-fa-fa-flint town!
1. Approximately the same subject matter.
2. Higher expectations/rigor at A2.
3. Higher caliber student at A2.
4. NEVER felt that I have to apologize for U of M-Flint degree.
5. Used tickets - NEVER going to apologize for it.
6. Completely different experiences - but learned and grew from both.
We are what we are - don't pretend to be what you are not. Don't apologize for opportunities that you capitalize on. Kick yourself for opportunities blown.
Went to UM-D for two years, UM-AA for two. Ann Arbor is so much better that it's really not up for debate, but Dearborn is great for what it is and serves its purpose extremely well.
I don't see the harm in the campuses existing just like they do now. It's not hurting anyone, a few UM-D kids going to football games isn't the end of the universe. And, frankly, I think the idea that a UM degree is SO VALUABLE that it GUARANTEES you a job is laughable. A 4.0 from UM-D will get you a better job than a 2.5 from AA, and this is true across the board. A college degree is only worth what you put into it.
To tell the truth, I'd like to see the University build a third campus in the Grand Rapids area. Extend the brand to the rest of the state, why not?
I spent 3 semesters at Dearborn before transferring to Ann Arbor my sophomore year. My full intention from the start was to transfer and I was actually denied admission fall semester soph year after I had already signed a lease in a2. Surprisingly, I encountered very, very few other students who attended UM-D with the intention of transferring. Literally, the ONLY reason I attended UM-D was that I thought it gave me the best opportunity to get into AA. But to my surprise the wasn't the case with the vast majority of students on the UM-D campus. Most of the students went there because it was easy to commute to and was a 4-year university with shades of the UM brand. The courses, and more specifically the competetion, in my experience were without question less challenging than the A2 counterparts.
I can understand the argument for not letting UM-D, UM-F students have FB tix, but I seriously doubt they take up a significant portion of the total student allotment. To boot, any Dearborn or Flint student making the trek to Ann Arbor (where they probably don't know a whole lot of people anyway) on Saturday's is probably a more hardcore M fan than some random sorostitute who is going to show up during the 2nd possession and leave at halftime.
Haha, this thread is the worst thing ever to appear on MGoBlog, and that's including the UFR of The Horror.
This ended up being a ridiculously long post for a topic that's already old by mgoboard standards and probably has already been seen by anyone will look at it, but oh well.
First, for clarification, students at satellite campuses get student tickets for football and so forth. We used to be on par with AA students in regard to student tickets. A couple years ago, all AA students were given priority. Second, amen about real fans travelling from Flint or Dearborn for all the home games vs. some drunk sorority girls leaving at halftime. Third, the poster(s) who talked about satellite students going to those schools because of the student tickets aren’t thinking very clearly. Nobody is actually going to choose a school because they can get the student deal on tickets and get up early on a few Saturdays with plenty of traffic ahead.
Moving on, can someone give me a good argument for buying into school rankings? I seriously doubt anyone has much of an understanding of the methodology. Surely one criterion is researchers at the top of their respective fields, but what does this matter to the students and their education? I've had classes with a professor who is one of the two or three big names you would mention. But taking his class, we learned to next to nothing. He was just awful at explaining things to those weren't fellow experts and was completely disorganized. USNEWS certainly doesn't sit in on classes and evaluate the learning environment. It didn't help me that the professor just gave some lecture for a prominent academic group, or that he has a long and impressive CV writing papers. He's certainly contributing to the school's ranking. On the other hand, there's a fellow graduate student I graded for (and attended the class) about a year ago who is one of the best teachers I've seen. Yet, he's not contributing at all to the rankings. Further, if he were hired, he'd actually bring down the rankings because he has a shorter, less impressive CV and isn't well-known. The idea that you can give a simple score to an entire school of tens of thousands of students and thousands of faculty is absurd anyway. There are good and bad teachers in every department at every university in the country. Speaking of conflation, one should be careful not to conflate how much shit one had to do for a test or class that was forgotten as soon as it was done vs. how much one actually learned and became a more intelligent, thoughtful person.
I'm not saying that, on the whole, one isn't more likely to receive a better education at AA than at the satellites, but there's not some tremendous gulf between the schools. I graduated from UM-Flint (and yes, I tell people it was the Flint campus, as does everyone else I know, and the idea that everyone basically claims they went to AA is likely little more than hearsay) and am now a master's student at Carnegie Mellon University, which is right up there with AA in school rankings (though not for all subjects since it's a much smaller, more tech-oriented school that doesn't offer degrees in nearly so many fields). The "Michigan" name likely helped. No, I haven't been way in over my head because UM-Flint is "tier" whatever-the-hell-it-is or "behind Northern Iowa". Despite my inferior undergraduate degree, I managed to score in the top 97th percentile on the qualitative section of the GRE and 86th on the quantitative, which is better than the average student trying to attend grad school for math despite the fact that I basically had none in my undergraduate studies. I’m not saying that to brag, as I have concerns about the importance of standardized testing (AA students aren’t far and away superior to satellite students because they get a few more points on their ACTs) but to serve as an example. My classmates seemed to do well getting jobs or into grad schools as well. The same experience goes for my brother who went there, including a friend of his who's now a professor at Emory. The main reason I went to UM-Flint because it was much cheaper, and my family was basically fucked financially at the time. I bet one would find very little difference in the mode and median regarding the quality of students between any two universities. I certainly haven't been blow away by the genius student body at CMU. For the most part, they're college kids just like anywhere else (except nerdier and less attractive, unfortunately). A few commented on how much better AA was after transferring. I wonder how much of it is true though, especially since they talked about pining for AA from the beginning. For example, the American Chemical Society, or whatever the name is, has the same test for all students after the first year, so UM-Flint has to teach the same stuff. Also, Tom from AA talked about how AA actually required a "full lab report" in his science class. Uh, we had lab reports. I had to write a final paper for the science classes I had on top of lab reports for the individual experiments. What did you do in the lab then at Flint? Mixed some shit together and left? Really, the only thing that I feel hurt me at UM-Flint simply had to do with the size of the school and having less options to explore. For some subjects, this doesn't matter much. You'll learn the same stuff in physics wherever you go. But it sucked not having a wide variety of classes to choose in something like history, which was one of my degrees.
There's obviously a lot of arrogance in some of the posters, which is too bad. It's funny that they talk about what a great PUBLIC school AA is. Just as making a big deal about the satellites and AA is mostly baseless, I hope they don't apply the same misguided reasoning to themselves relative to Harvard. I remember checking out some Ivy League syllabi online before and found that they were set up almost identically to mine. You might say the competition's just much tougher, but there was actually a bit of a brouhaha a few years back because all the students were getting A's. I don't think their grades were inflated. Instead, eveyrone has the same idea of what's an A paper or not, and Harvard's not accepting kids on the margins. I found this out with the last few years of incoming graduate students at CMU. They're all given the same papers and asked to grade them, and there's nearly unanimous agreement about the grades.
Basically, this lengthy post can be simply summarized. You reap what you sow. Harvard has a lot of prominent alumni because kids who are smart, driven, wealthy, and well-connected attend it, not because Harvard has some amazing ability to turn morons into geniuses.