What would you do about blocking? There are a lot of collisions in the game aside from tackle attempts. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Pollard.
fair point that
What would you do about blocking? There are a lot of collisions in the game aside from tackle attempts. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Pollard.
when he talks about someone is going to die on the football field because the rules about targeting and such are becoming stricter. He sounds way too bitter about having to give up his illegally hard hitting ways
I meant to say that I agree the sport wil be dead (or dying) in thirty years. As the players continue to get bigger, stronger and faster, it's only going to get harder to make it safer.
I'm a loser. Neg away.
I liked Mark Elzinga; and if I'm not mistaken he had an honorable career in the Secret Service, right? I was shocked when Leach started as a freshman. Elzinga may have been the best backup in the Conference.
Well nice to see someone notice my photo. He's been a sheriff in Washtenaw County for as long as I can remember and before that he was in the marines.
Too much bullying in football, all of the hitting and touching each other. The game also ends with a loser which makes half the kids feel bad. They all deserve cake, ice cream, and a trophy. Let me know if I layed the sarcasm on thick enough
Rather than just giving a 15-yd penalty for an illegal head-to-head hit or hitting a defenseless receiver, I’d make it an automatic ejection. The equivalent of a red card in soccer. 15-yards isn’t enough of a deterrent for something that can seriously injure someone. And to determine whether or not the helmet-to-helmet was unavoidable, have the refs review the play.
Easy, easy rule to put in. For the players that don't like it? Quit hitting people with your head dipshit.
I like this alternative to my rule.
The problem I see, though, is that so many helmet-to-helmet hits seem incidental or accidental. Hitting a defenseless receiver is an easy one to implement, though.
Yeah, that's why I think reviewing all flagged illegal hit plays would be key. Kinda like the 5-yd facemask penalty and the 15-yd version. Sometimes the players are just moving too fast, or the offensive guy ducks his head into your way, and you just can't help it. Make those a normal 15-yarder. Or hell, take the soccer system a step further and make those the equivalent of a yellow card. Get two in a game and you're ejected.
It is. But this rule then puts the responsibility of avoiding such a hit on the hitter--you blow it, you're out. That means people will develope methods of hitting that won't result in such hits. The game will be cleaner. Both the hitter and the ballcarrier will be safer.
but the Trouba hit on Seckel earlier in the year is a perfect example of the NCAA applying that standard.
Also, I completely agree that penalties in football need a major overhaul. You're much more likely to win the game by taking cheap shots if you have no issue with injuring an opponent; fifteen yards for a deliberate attempt to injure is a ridiculous tradeoff.
These are clearly suggestions from people who have never played football.
Football is never going to fix itself. Generations of players have been coached and taught to tackle poorly, which is why we're having all of these issues now. The whole use your head to dislodge the ball concept is a perfect example. That's just stupid, and its only accepted because that's the way its always been. So yes, in order to save football from itself, some rule suggestions need to come from the outside to change the inbred way of thinking that currently resides in football.
Wrong. And dumb.
what can you do as a DB when you try to dislodge the ball away from reciever? Just stand and wait til they land on the ground then tackle them? No, you hit them just as they catch the ball to dislodge it. That's exactly what I've been taught to do as a S.
Obviously, if there's obvious intent to hit defenseless reciever when the ball is nowhere near it, then yes it's an automatic 15 yarder.
My only beef with the penalties and fines for head to head hits is that they are only called on the defensive players. A ball carrier leading with his head into contact should be penalized as well. If you dont, it simply encourages the ball carrier to spear everyone they come in contact with...might get an extra 15 if you can hit the tacklers head.
1 - My son won't play football outside of being a kicker / punter. I'll sit him down and tell him what happens when you get hit thousands of times in low-grade collisions and explain I don't want him to risk permanent brain injury.
2 - Football can survive with a few reasonable changes. First, there is no need for tackle football before age 14. Second, college players should weigh no more than 285 pounds, and pro players need not weigh more than 300 pounds (remember when William Perry was an anomaly? I think Michigan has 2-3 linemen who weigh more than him, let alone NFL teams or Wisconsin's entire offensive line). Third, tackling with your head should be outlawed (the SEC would need 5 years to adjust). Fourth, expand NFL rosters so players with concussions don't feel pressure to return. Give teams 70 roster spots. Fifth, independent medical professionals on the sidelines of college and pro games, at a neutral location on the sidelines where coaches are not permitted to enter or congregate.
3 - I'd do about as much to save football as I'd do to save boxing or the UFC. The sport maims many of its participants. I don't care much if it goes away - I'll watch soccer and baseball instead.
Punters are bad eggs!
Kickers get concussions, too. For instance, all-time special teams tackling great Troy Nienberg.
I'm not a father, but if I ever have a son who enjoys playing and watching the game as much as I do, I would never ban him from playing if it brings hom that much joy.
I think the right steps will be taken to gradually make the game safer. If it degenerates into sissy flag football, so be it. I love the basic objectives and elements of the game so much that I would probably be just as interested a pro-flag league if it was the only option...just my two cents.
I think it's more likely that we will all (ALL) be morbidly obese, confined to hovering chairs, plugged into permanent life support systems. Sports like football will be played by bionic cyborgs, and the hitting will be epic.
Implement the rules of the Pro Bowl for the regular season in terms of what the defense is allowed to do. It results in a high scoring game with basketball scores but it would be a lot more entertaining than a defense battle.
I'm so mad that i missed that other thread you're talking about. Sounds like so much fun. I just once want someone to post something blatantly political and for the mods to let it reach its epic conclusion organically. It'd be like The Hunger Games of the blogosphere.
I think you'd be disappointed. I quoted Obama, on the subject of college football and concussions. It's been a pretty controversial (non-politically) throughout the day. The NCAA addressed the subject without referencing the President's statement, which is a kind of passive-aggressive way of dealing with it.
Anyway, the original story was an Obama story just because it was an Obama quote. I wrote that I was not aware (as Obama alleged) that there were "stories" of college football players with histories of concussions "had nothing to fall back on." That's what Obama said, and I asked if anyone knew of such "stories." That's it. I tried really hard to herd the cats and keep it on topic and I was getting somewhere with some exceptions, but a mod shut it down. The Board's sensibilities are just a bit too fragile to handle something like that.
I'm bummed I missed the other thread. I wished the board's sensibilities weren't so fragile. People are way too easily offended.
Of course it's unsafe.
This is a really interesting topic, one that I think will become more pressing. The issues with head injuries are escalating toward a level that will be unsusainable. Something will have to change.
My answers to the questions:
1. I don't know. I have daughters, and coordination doesn't run in my family; I do kind of wish I had played football now and don't believe a few years of high school ball would've hurt me.
2. Football can survive. What will need to change may change the appearance and style of the game a bit, but it will be able to continue.
3. Regarding those changes:
As has been mentioned, changing the way people tackle. Good, proper, repeatable tackles can be made without destroying someone. Other types of contact may need to be modified, too--the impact of the offensive and defensive lines may need to be tweaked.
There may be an as-yet-undeveloped advancement in technology that will allow helmets to offer full protection while still reducing G-force impacts.
Here's the thing that nobody seems to talk about, but it's beginning to drive me nuts: Football needs to address its PED issue. It is obvious to everyone involved that football has become faster and bigger in the last 30 years. It's not like guys weren't using advanced workouts and nutrition supplements in the 80s; nobody worked harder than Jerry Rice, for example. Why have things changed so much? Drugs are the obvious, inevitable answer.
There may be a few who read that and scoff, thinking that it isn't a big issue. Really? Steroids and other drugs increase speed and strength, which are both essential characteristics for football players. You will be more effective and will make more money. And while the NFL has had testing for decades, the last decade has shown us that testing doesn't really get the job done. Lance Armstrong "never failed a test" and yet has now admitted that he was juiced to the gills; Marion Jones the same. These are people that faced testing far more stringent than the NFL provides, and were not caught.
Anyone with the resources can beat the system. It is plainly clear to me that much, probably most, of the NFL does.
And until they address the issue honestly, they will not fix the problem of bigger and stronger men hitting each other at high velocities.
I played tackle football in 7th and 8th grade, 30 years ago. Back then, hitting with your helmet was called "spearing" and resulted in a 15 yard penalty. I'm amazed that people complain about penalties being called for "helmet-to-helmet" hits, because when I played, that was a penalty, regardless if the player was defenseless or not. When I played, we had knee pads, thigh pads, hip pads, and tailbone pads. Players today, particularly in the NFL, don't wear any pads below the waist, so naturally, they are much faster and their hits are that much harder. So two changes I would make would actually be to make the game more like it was - vigorously enforce the no spearing rule, and make players wear pads.
I got hit once in practice by our middle linebacker, he was a grade above me, and about 30-40 pounds heavier. My whole left arm went numb, I fumbled the ball because I had no feeling in my arm, and I got cussed out by a coach for fumbling. I realized then that football was a tough game. I kept playing because I enjoyed the game, but that was an eye-opener.
I have an 8 year old son. So far, he hasn't shown an interest in playing football. I would have to think long and hard about letting him play. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe, but my son and his health comes first. If someone else's kid wants to risk their health, that is their business, as long as the information is out there.
Somebody mentioned soccer. The youth leagues around here don't let players use their heads for fear of concussions or head trauma. I wonder about the adult soccer players who take kicks from goalies 2/3 of the way down the field off their heads. I can't imagine that's much different than boxers getting hit in the head repeatedly, leading to the punch-drunk phenomenon. Every sport has risks involved - my wife tore her calf muscle playing badminton, and I lost two teeth playing that game. You've got to live your life though.
Umich rugby needs some love too.
Take off the helmets and pads, like rugby. Take the game back 100 years...
Take off the helmets????
1. How do you force someone to graduate?
2 How do you force the school to actually educate the players?
3. How do you live a normal life with shitty brains from CTE sustained in college?
The problem isn't nearly as big as it's made out to be.
For those with serious problems, there are 10 that are fine and 4 with mild issues. Football is around a 150 years old; it's not as if it's some new sport. Physically violent sports have always been part of human culture, if it's not football it'll be something else. That doesn't make the tragic cases ok, but it also isn't as much of a pandemic as its being made out to be.
1. I'd let my kid play football in high school and explain to him the ramifications and possibility of injuries and explain that despite the fact that I love football, I chose to play a different sport in part because I didn't like the idea of being battered. Football is like smoking, you know the risks, but I'm not going to tell my kids, once they're old enough to understand, how to live their lives.
2. Football will survive as it has for over a century. The president threatened to ban it in the early 1900s and changes were made. Changes will continue to be made to helmets, rules, etc, but it'll still be a brutal sport where guys get hurt. My guess is that eventually they'll test players for CTE and they'll be forced into retirement to cover the NFL's liabilities.
3. I'd go back to leather helments, which would offer protection but probably end killshots. If not that, then force every NFL player to have brain scans for damage.
No worries. Dymonte Thomas is our safety now.
1. I wouldn't even worry about it unless he was good enough to play college. And at that point he's gone so far and has a full ride, that there's a slim chance he wouldn't want to play anymore.
2. I believe they can keep it safe and not change the game too much.
3. Make the "strike zone" part of the rules. Strike zone being above the knees, below the shoulders. And obviously you can't lead with your helmet. Pretty much that's making "fundamental tackling" the rule. You can't leave your feet to tackle, unless diving to make a shoe string tackle. That takes glamour out of defense that everyone has loved and endorsed for so long. But I believe that would solve most problems just with that little bit.
I'd let my theoretical kids do anything they want. The real ones, it would depend a lot on the coaches and their approach.
I'm getting CTE from all the face palming I'm doing reading this post. Meltdownious postious ... Wyle E Coyote never catches the Road Runner. To be a mod...a dream / nightmare.
Mentioning Barack Obama is not political in this thread. The other thread looked like a debate about football safety. There is no reason that political opinions cannot be referenced about a non political debate. Let's get our moderation standards straight.
I have a son. He is nearing 10 months old. His right kidney is a pelvic kidney and it is a Multi-Cystic Dysplastic kidney (basically his right kidney is in his pelvis instead of up higher in the back, and it doesn't work because it just has cysts filled with fluid in it instead of working kidney tissue). You only need 1 kidney to live, and his left kidney is fully functional. Since his left kidney does all the work it is enlarged, and therefore, more sucseptible to injury.
Roughly 10 seconds after the diagnosis the first question i ask, naturally, "What does this mean for his sports career?", trying to make it like I was being a little funny but my wife and the doc both knew it was a serious inquiry.
The doc basically said he should be able to live a normal life but should probably not ride motorcycles or do jousting or anything with a high probability of blunt forced trauma. All sports should be fine, and we'll continue to monitor everything as he grows up.
The first thing I say is "Well, then he shouldn't play football, right?".
Doc looks me square in the eye and says "If you're not going to let him play football, it's because of head injuries, not his kidneys."
This absolutely floored me. My son has 1 working kidney, more likely to be injured because it is enlarged from doing all the work, and if it IS injured could cause my son to need a transplant, go through dialysis, crazy procedures, possibly ending fatally... and the doctor is still saying that head injuries would be more of a concern from playing football.
I love sports, including football. Played every sport I could growing up. Football, basketball and baseball in high school and low level college basketball. Wasn't really good at football, and never really played much. If I could go back it's the one sport I wouldn't have played in high school. I was always entering the basketball season hurt and not in the right shape.
But I am a huge sports fan. I look forward to watching many more Michigan games with my son. I can't wait for his first trip to the Big House. Growing up in this family he will be around all sports, including football. And I'm somewhat scared to death of the decision I'll be faced with if he wants to play football.
I don't want to rob him of any activity that brings him joy. I don't want to teach him to live life scared. I don't know. I guess my plan as of now is not to shield him from football, but to try and have a baseball, mitt, basketball, golf club and whatever else in his hands early and often.
But if he comes to me asking to play football, I honestly don't know what I'll do. Hopefully the game is safer by then. At least i have a little time to figure it out.
If he doesn't get involved in jousting, all of the other kids with chargers and lances and suits of armor will just be laughing at him. And, I probably don't need to tell you this, but a knighthood is probably out of the question for him. To say nothing of his chances of ever marrying a princess. I just hope for your sake that your neighborhood doesn't have any evil-doing Dukes or Earls.
Are you not entertained? Let them play, football is not as dangerous as skiing, or riding an four Wheeler. You have just as much chance off blowing out you're knee running marathons. Playing on a trampoline is more dangerous then football.
Im getting really tired of this subject, Especially since most people know little to nothing about youth sports and the proposed solutions are pretty silly. I have a 12 and 11 year old they have both played since they were 7. I've coached every year that they played.
Im not not going to respond the questions but i will say this.
A-Helmets are 100x safer than they were 10 years ago
Aa-Reseach is saying its not the hits causing brain damage its the rolling of the brain in the head, so contact at all is going to casue damage.
B-Kids are being taught the correct way to tackle. A form has had more emphasis than ever.
C-in my 5 years of coaching youth football Ive never seen 1 concussion in a kid under 12.
D-unlike 15 years ago players arent being told to suck it up and keep playing. If a kid is thought to have a concussion, they have to be cleared medically to play. If they do have a concussion they're out a minimum of 2 weeks and have to be cleared by a nuerologist before they can play again.
1. Yes, because it would be his choice, and I don’t think the risk of acquiring significant brain damage at the HS level is as much of risk as it is on the collegiate and pro levels. I wouldn’t encourage or necessarily discourage him, but I would let him know of the potential dangers and risks of playing the sport and let him make his choice about it just like my mother did with me, but I wouldn’t allow him to play until HS though. But to be honest if I didn’t play at the HS school level, I probably would feel like a lot of you feel about not letting your son play at all.
2. I’m not sure. There are times where I feel like this sport is on its death bed, and other time’s when I don’t and just think it’s at a cross road’s like it was in 1905, and that unless they do finally invent the magical helmet that everyone is either praying or hoping for that this game once again is going to have to evolve into something else. That although is safer for its participants, is also dangerous and violent enough to keep the American public entertained.
3. With the way the game is played today I’m not sure you can make it any safer than they have already made it with the new rules (which I don’t mind btw). Making player’s wrap up when tackling like in Rugby (someone can correct me if I’m wrong here), is an interesting proposal but it still won’t get rid of many of the games big collision’s (LB’s taking on block’s, blocks on ST’s, OL/DL play etc.) that result in sub concussive blow’s which we know contribute to brain disease just as much as suffering concussion’s do.
This OT but TBH I feel guiltier about watching CFB then I do of the NFL. At least current NFL players are getting well compensated for the damage they do their bodies, and they now know the risks of playing the sport at that level. While many of the participant’s in CFB now know of the game’s risk to their long term health, you have to wonder if the “education” that they receive is worth the damage they do upon their bodies. I love CFB but there are times when I wonder, if the game would be better off if the NFL just established a minor league/D league, and 99% of HS player’s would be done playing the sport at the age of 18.
And just per the Bernard Pollard quote, when I first saw the story, I thought he was referring to the collective future weight of lawsuits eventually dragging the NFL down. The thought that the NFL will cease to exist someday because it isn't violent enough, to me, is off in fringe survivalist zombie apocalypse land somewhere as a real concern.
So, to your Q's:
1. Yes, with reservations and encouragement to go with a sport you can play your whole life instead
2. see above re: Pollard
3. I think they're on the right track with taking away launching and moving closer to rugby-style tackling (I played h.s. football and college rugby, and had concussions in both, generally speaking the rugby tackling was more form-conscious and still very physical)
I can tell you that. Maybe it'll be a two-hand touch league where any unnecessary roughness is a 50 yd penalty but it will exist
And I don't agree at all with the OP. While I do believe that soccer is fun to play, it is boring as hell to watch (IMO) and I really don't want the US to become even more European. Without hitting football wouldn't be nearly as fun to watch and some of the best plays happen because people go for the hit and don't wrap up (like Denard splitting the buckeye hit sandwich last November).
As for letting my kid play, I wouldn't discourage them but I would teach them to play as safe as possible and I would love to watch them lay down a big hit (as long as they lead with the shoulder and not the helmet).