On the play late in the first half when Denard lost a fumble, he actually touched the ball to the ground while trying to stay on his feet.
Shouldn't the ball be ruled dead at that point?
When I was at the bar. It didn't help I was frothing at the mouth and looked like I was having a seizure.
elbow or knee down at the same time to have it ruled as a no fumble.
Denard had neither.
The ground can't cause a fumble if your knee or elbow are down.
If your knee or elbow are down, the ground wouldn't cause a fumble b/c you'd already be down.
tell that to antonio bass in 2005
Man everyone i read his name i think of all potential that kid had smh antonio bass coulda shoulda
What he said.^^^
Right...that's the point. So if the ball pops out at that point, it's not a fumble.
I thought so too, but I looked it up:
"It is also possible for the ground to cause a fumble in college football if the ball hits the ground before any part of the ball carrier's body (other than the hand or foot) touches the ground. An example was the fumble by Arkansas quarterback Clint Stoerner vs. Tennessee in the 1998 SEC chaampionship game."
Why have we neutered the b10 POY?
Why do we have our QB throw downfield so far when he is struggling?
Why won't we run him when our #1 RB goes out?
Why did we get outcoached?
I'm still angry.
You're totally right. Borges needs to stop telling all of our WRs to go deep every play. Then Denard might have an option of throwing it less than 20 yrds down-field.
I'm still angry.
Stay positive and Go Blue!!!!!!
This is an odd juxtaposition.
No, the players knees or elbows have to touch the ground
This rule must be different in the NFL because I can recall numerous plays where a ball-carrier used the football as support to keep his balance, and is immediately ruled down when the ball touches the turf. It would appear college rules have it defined differently. I was also screaming like crazy when this happened, remembering a Detroit Lions play where Herman Moore was ruled down at the 15 yard line when he planted the ball on the ground to keep his balance (no other body part had hit the ground).
This is describing the NFL rule, not the NCAA rule. (1) In the NFL, if a player touches the ball to the ground, the play is dead. In the NCAA, the play is still alive. (2) In the NFL, it matters whether a player is down by contact or not by contact. In the NCAA, there is only down and not down--you will never hear an NCAA ref use the phrase "down by contact."
In the NCAA, you are down as soon as any part of your body other than your feet or your hands touch the ground. The ball is not part of your body, and it does not matter if you stumble while in open field--down is down.
In the NFL, you must be downed "by contact" and the ball is considered part of your body for the purpose of this rule.
Yes you're right. Just like Vince was down when his hand touched the ground during contact. The refs were so bad yesterday I thought for a second they would blow that call and hand us the TD. Never so lucky.
Unfortunately, Smith's elbow touched down as well (that's what the ref described after the replay--the ref even idiotically pointed at his own elbow while saying "elbow". The elbow is why Smith was down, not the hand. And again, contact doesn't matter in the NCAA.
...on the ground mean that the play is over...explain Junior's non-TD. He caught the ball with one hand, secured it to the body with the second, and then the knee touched the ground in the end zone. Catch + down in the end zone = TD.
By the logic of the down by contacting the ground with any part other than the hands or feet...Junior's play was dead the moment his knee hit the ground. Anything that happened after that is irrelevant. Right?
No, because he is not yet a "ball carrier". He hasn't completed the catch and become the legal possessor of the ball until he maintains possession of the ball throughout his impact with the ground.
Denard did stumlbe from contact from an opposing player but that ball came out after he planted on it and tried to continue the play. As for the rule, does it seem really dumb to anyone else that in colege a player is rulled down if his elbow is down but he can plant on the ball and that is a live play?
Borges to Hoke= Gerg to Rich Rod! So Michigan has some analytical junkies. Can anyone figure this out for Hoke. If he doesn't fire Borges soon his ass will be grass. I was at the Iowa game and had a group of dumb fucks laughing and thanking me for the play calls all game. It is like have Michael Jordan on your basketball team and having me shoot 3 game winners. It is unfuckingacceptable! Borges is a moron, and if Hoke is loyal to him then he will go down. I like Hoke, but we will soon see if he has any brains. He also may want to start working the refs a little bit instead of this we are Michigan and should overcome this bullshit. Fuck! I am still so mad I can't think straight, any I know unfuckingacceptable isn't a word, and yes commas and run on sentences suck. That is a precursor for all of the English inspectors (critics) on here.
Football is full of rules inconsistencies, like how an exception is made for the holder on an PAT/FG to allow him to have his knee down.
I was trying to argue with myself about this yesterday. Hypothetically, if a player diving for the first down marker reaches out with the ball and touches it to the ground before any part of his body touches the ground, but it comes loose as he contacts it to the ground, would be ruled down and not a fumble, correct? The Denard fumble is similar in physical makeup but different in spirit, since in my hypothetical case the player was intending to go to the ground. It just kicks a hole in the nice, neat little "the ground can't cause a fumble" maxim we all know and love.
In the hypothetical that you give (diving player contacts the ground football-first and the ball comes out), that's a fumble.
As far as the "ground can't cause a fumble," the first person to say that, I think, was John Madden, and now every announcer says that. If you ask a ref, they will say "the ground can't cause a fumble, except when it can." That phrase was never completely true, but was made up by announcers trying to simplify a complicated situation for the lay public.
I guess we see it more at the goal line, which is irrelevant b/c the play is over once the ball crosses the plane, so I knew that was a bad example. So, yeah that would make sense, thanks for clarifying. I was trying to justify it to myself otherwise.
The rule says the play is over if the ball carrier "loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot."
It takes a split second to actually lose possession of the ball when it hits the ground, and ordinarily a falling player would hit the ground with some body part (elbow, forearm) during that split second. They're probably going to give the ball carrier the benefit of the doubt.
It's really a question of whether your "before" can also reasonably be construed as "as". If you're caught in the pile and don't actually hit the ground for a second or two, they're going to call a fumble.
Was it a full fumble or was it going through the process of the fumble......
I think because everyone has heard the term/rule "ground can't cause a fumble" so often, many have misconstrued what that actually means. It in no way means that the ball, while in the possession of a player, hitting the ground isn't a fumble. With that reasoning, it would also mean that if a player ever even touches the ball to the ground, the play is dead, which obviously is not the case, because the ball is not considered a part of the player's body.
What this rule means is that the ball cannot be deemed a fumble if it gets jarred loose simultaneous or after a player makes contact to the ground in such a way that he is ruled down. Basically, that play yesterday was absolutely and undeniably a fumble. There is no discussion on this. Many calls were questionable yesterday, this one was one of the few that was called perfectly by the book.
When the play occurred, I thought WTF??? I'm sure I've seen a ball carrier ruled down because of the ball (only) making contact with the ground. But maybe it's an NFL rule, or maybe it has changed in the college game, because I can't find any mention of contact between the ball carrier-held ball and the ground creating a "ball carrier down" event.
FR-55/FR-56: Rule 4 / Ball in Play , Dead Ball, Out of Bounds Ball Declared Dead ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar, when a ball carrier is out of bounds, or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot [Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule] (A.R. 4-1-3-I).
c. When a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal or successful try occurs; or when an unsuccessful field-goal attempt that has crossed the neutral zone and is then untouched by Team B lands in Team B’s end zone or out of bounds (A.R. 6-3-9-I). d. When, during a try, a dead-ball rule applies (Rule 8-3-2-d-5). e. When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone. f. When a free kick, scrimmage kick or any other loose ball comes to rest and no player attempts to secure it. g. When a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone or a free kick is caught or recovered by any player after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal; or when an invalid fair-catch signal is made after a catch or recovery by Team B (Rules 2-8-1 through 3). h. When a return kick or scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is made. i. When a forward pass is ruled incomplete. j. When, before a change of team possession on fourth down or a try, a Team A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler (Rules 7-2-2-a and -b and 8-3-2-d-5). k. When a live ball not in player possession touches anything inbounds other than a player, a player’s equipment, an official, an official’s equipment or the ground (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply). l. When a simultaneous catch or recovery of a live ball occurs. m. When the ball becomes illegal while in play (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply). n. When a live ball is in possession of an official (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply). o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground. p. When an airborne pass receiver of either team is held so that he is prevented from immediately returning to the ground (A.R. 7-3-6-III). q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.