See any of the multiple posts pointing out that the practice continued at WVU after RR's departure.
RR's Connection to WVU Allegations, Why is This a Big Deal?
Was the assistant who got fired from UM working for West Virginia?
Were the compliance department people from UM working for WVU at the same time?
Michigan can no longer blame this on a few isolated dumbass beauracrats who suck at paperwork or an overzealous assistant.
The practice may have continued under Stewart, but it started under Rodriguez. Two different sets of compliance people. Rodriguez is the common denominator. That makes it harder to persuade somebody that Rodriguez promotes an atmosphere of compliance.
This is a very good point. At the end of the day, I still view these violations as ticky-tack stuff that probably occurs in most programs, but for those of us that have been defenders of RR (myself included), the defense becomes that much more difficult to make with a straight face. Michigan did NOT have these issues prior to RR's arrival. The problems started when RR came. Now, we find out that these problems were something that RR was doing for a couple of years while he was at WVU, as well.
That said, it really could be that he simply had an erroneous interpretation of these rules, and he carried that interpretation with him from WVU to UM, but from a purely "optics" point of view, this doesn't look good.
UM stated in their response to the allegations that they found instances of non compliance back into the '07 season (or was it '06?).
I see your points (Hannibal and michgoblue) and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just saying I don't believe it's as big of a hit as you're making it out to be. I'm more in line with the poster who earlier wrote that these new developments really don't move the needle either way.
I'm not sure as I recall it that that was the case. The CARA forms were backlogged before Rich got here, but I don't remember them saying Grad Coaches were found to be monitoring practices beforehand. But it was a lot to remember...
and discipline against WVU results in Michigan is brought back in front of the infractions committee as to why additional discpline should not be imposed, the "cause" is that the conduct at WVU predated the conduct at Michigan, could not have been readily ascertained by the Michigan athletic department, and had nothing to do with Michigan. How would WVU sanctions make Michigan a repeat offender?
The crime is KNOWINGLY receiving stolen property. Not buying something you later find out is stolen.
Michael Buckner is a huge self-promoter. We've yet to see if any of his predictions actually come true (though we could see if what he said about what his claims on what the original violations were...I'm guessing he came down harsher than it actually played out, as is his tendency). I'd trust the bylog blog more...if we could anymore...(grumble...f'in jackass).
Edit: Is this guy holding press conferences? Almost word for word, to the Detroit News...yet he kinda contradicts himself, saying it won't have that much affect on Michigan-
While one legal expert said this latest revelation should not affect Michigan's appearance before the Committee on Infractions, the committee undoubtedly will know of this latest issue that also involves Rodriguez.
"It's going to be that silent person in the room that everyone knows is there but that no one is going to talk about," said Michael Buckner, a Florida lawyer who has represented universities in NCAA investigations. "The committee only considers the case before it -- West Virginia is not before them."
Buckner said this latest information should directly affect Michigan's strategy before its hearing. He said it's unlikely U-M brings up the West Virginia investigation either directly or indirectly.
"The only way I can see West Virginia coming into the Michigan case is if there are questions for Michigan about when they hired coach Rodriguez, what type of due diligence did they do."
it could cause him to be suspended for practices, recruit visits, maybe even more. The ncaa really smells blood and is going after RR imo.
WVU claims they told and warned him that he was not following the rules. WVU in hindsight shot itself in the foot. It released that claim seemingly to distance itself from UM and RR and the ncaa investigation but now it shows that they knew he was noncompliant but did not enforce the rules with him or Stewart.
It is a nightmare for RR to say the least, now he will have to provide 2 responses, go to two hearing, and get two verdicts. Lots of money going to defend this too. If RR doesn't succeed at UM, his prospects look extremely dim in the college FB world.
who has been supplying quotes, on demand, to the Free Press and AA.com, since the beginning of the NCAA investigation.
I think you have wildly exagerated and misinterpreted the WVU response. Bill Stewart is now the bearer of the exact same allegation as to Rich Rodriguez; "failure to encourage an atmosphere of compliance."
The Florida attorney "expert" mentioned that in other cases involving (one can only presume, since he didn't make it clear) violations, coaches were sanctioned with restrictions on recruiting visits. There were no recruiting violations alleged at Michigan. There are no recruiting violations alleged at WVU. There will be no "recruiting" sanctions imposed on Rich Rodriuguez.
but that's me. I don't see how any coach who is personally implicated by the ncaa for actions taking place at two schools walk away with no punishment, however innocent his acts may be or seem. The ncaa will direct some of its ire or flex its muscle directly at the coach, just to prove a point, which seems to be the ncaa's new mantra. I also don't recall any of UM's self-imposed sanctions that limit RR individually. RR is claiming to be 100% non-culpable which is fine but I just find it hard to believe the ncaa will let him move on unscathed.
And then read the University of Michigan's response. There is only one allegation pertaining to Rodriguez in the Michigan case; it is for his allegedly failing to "encourage an atmosphere of compliance."
The NCAA expects all of its member schools to be self-enforcing. That is the credo that they all sign onto, with participation in the NCAA. The NCAA says that it doesn't have the power or the resources to be essentially a prosecutor.
And so with the investigation of 2009-10, Michigan's own lawyers co-investigated with NCAA lawyers. And Michigan admitted to all but one allegation, and self-imposed sanctions that were responsive to each and every self-admitted allegation.
The one allegation that Michigan denied, and the only allegation that Rich Rodriguez needed to respond to, was the allegation that Coach Rodriguez failed to encoruage and atmosphere of compliance.
I expect the NCAA to accept Michigan's self-imposed sanctions, because I think that is all that the evidence supports. Yes, I do not think that there should be any additional sanctions with respect to, or in the form of a show cause order regarding Rich Rodriguez, because I believe my University and its very fine lawyers, and I believe Coach Rodriguez and his lawyer, and I haven't seen a shred of evidence of Coach Rodriguez failing to encourage an atmosphere of compliance.
I don't know why one illegitimate allegation by the NCAA should give credence to another allegation.
[double-post, sorry; is the Board working very badly today for anyone else?]
And by bowling, I mean crush the living hell out of UConn.
I'm now crabby as hell.
I don't care what comes first.
The Zombie Apocalypse or Sep 4th I'm ready for both just fucking get here please.
interpret this stuff. I moved on months ago and just want to see one of our players knock someones helmet off on Sept 4th. Go Blue!!!
I'd be more convinced that RR is willing to cheat if his behavior changed under different compliance departments. To me, that would be more indicative of someone pushing the limits of what they can get away with.
Seems to me the one thing consistent between U of M + RR, WVU + RR, and WVU + Stewart is the NCAA's incomprehensible rules.
Has anyone pointed out that Rodriguez is the one who told the NCAA to go investigate WVU?
He flat out told ncaa investigators that he had been running things the same way since 2005. The WVU allegations have no bearing on the August hearing. The NCAA was already fully aware of how Rodriguez was running things and the length of time he was doing it.
.... MgoShoe and wolverine1987, that is.
The WVa allegations make Michigan's hearing in a week more complicated and Coach Rod's defense more difficult.
They also place Michigan squarely back in the press spotlight on the eve of a new season for all the wrong reasons. It's not just the [PAPER REDACTED] anymore.
It was good that AD Brandon put out a quick statement in support of Coach Rod. The latter's margin for error at this point is exceedingly small.
I like the Coach, I think he can succeed, but any Michigan fan that doesn't see all this as very negative for the program and the University are just trading the rose colored glasses in for blinders.
In related news, according to the [PAPER REDACTED], one of the members of the NCAA panel hearing Michigan's case is a deputy AD of Notre Dame!
The fix is in?
more difficult. If the NCAA even ASKS about WVU, RichRod merely says the truth, that he has been running things the same way because he though that was correct. As did Bill Stewart, as did Lloyd Carr. Yes, we had GA doing wrong things under LC too. It will not upset our defense nor make our punishment any worse.
Edit: Also, the last thing ND wants is for us to get totally screwed. They love their moneymaking rivalry with us way too much.
Sven... the NCAA already knew. This cannot affect Rodriguez in anyway. So now he misinterpreted the rules for 4 years instead of one and a half. The NCAA knew this. He told the NCAA that he had been running things the same way at WVU. The CARA forms not being turned in is a UofM compliance problem. Did anyone notice that in 3 years at WVU, Rodriguez only exceeded practice limits by a totaly of 1 hour and 15 minutes?
Too many grad assistants and non-coaches being involved in coaches meetings and unofficial practices are the allegations that fall squarly on Rodriguez for misinterpreting rules. He'd been doing this for 4 years, and let NCAA investigators know about it.
... but all I know is the only "violation" Michigan is challenging is that Coach Rod "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance."
The WVa allegations would seem to support this finding by showing some historical pattern.
They aren't directly relevant to the Michigan facts, but they could exert an influence on panel members. They read the news, too, even, heaven forbid, [PAPER REDACTED].
And certainly WVa has the means and the motive to throw Coach Rod under the bus.
Incorrect. This only means that compliance departments around the country have no idea how to interpret NCAA rules. The fact that WVU and UM thought what Rod doing was within the rules validates his actions as honest mistakes. Compliance is responsible for interpreting and certifying coaches' actions. Further, the actions continued under Stewart and WVU compliance did nothing. If they throw RR under the bus, they are also throwing Stewart under the bus. Not going to happen.
... my experience with (non-NCAA) compliance matters tells me that "there are no technical violations." The violation in question is explicitly directed at Coach Rod, fairly or unfairly.
From the standpoint of a regulator, whether a violation is an "honest mistake" goes to penalty, not the existence of the violation in the first place. The fact that "others do it" will fail in front of the NCAA, as it will in front of your local judge when you fight a speeding ticket,
I'm getting the feeling that the NCAA sort of knew about some of this stuff at WVa before they handed down the Michigan violations, especially #5. Sort of a scholastic/athletic sandbagging, if you will.
If we start winning -- this is water under the bridge and it doesn't matter.
If we don't start winning -- RR will be fired for a lack of winning, not because of this, and it doesn't matter.
But what if we're in a 6-6 gray area? Or end up with a disappointing 7-5 record? In those situations I could see the plug being pulled due to the general air of bad publicity around the program.
Because it really doesn't make Rich look better or worse, because he was either working in good faith or knowingly cheating. I guess it makes it apparent that it's not something that was only already happening at Michigan, and was something he started here; but if two schools weren't sure it was wrong, you can't really blame him for that. Likewise, the hell and fury of this site came down on Labadie, painting it was all Brad's fault, if only he had filed the forms it all would have been caught...and that's obviously now not the case. Because assuming they even were filed/monitored at WV it means their compliance dept. didn't see it as a violation, and didn't see it as one after Stewart took over either. (And if they didn't do the paperwork at WV, it shows the lack of importance put on such things). There's really no guarantee, and actual evidence against it, that if compliance had gotten the CARA forms that what was going on would be seen as a violation. It may have, but as WV shows, it likely may not have.
This is not to say that the paperwork shouldn't have been filed, and mistakes weren't made. Just that this was not just an error of one man's paperwork. On a smaller level, it's a coach who likes to use a lot of staff, who was never told not to at a previous school (and the school thought it was alright to keep doing it after he left), bringing the practice with him to his new school; an assistant not filing the paperwork that MAY have flagged it as impermissible; a compliance dept. that didn't go to someone to insist they get it (and may not have had a problem with it to begin with if they had); and management that didn't monitor all of it. But that just hides the bigger problem- that it's readily obvious the rule is extremely vague, and either a great deal if people at a lot of schools don't clearly understand it, or just think it's a stupid rule. There are probably dozens of schools changing their practices right now because they see now that it's a problem. The same way that you slow down when you see someone pulled over by a cop. Take that away, and the rest of the rule violation stuff is super minor.
But what it shows, people who were calling bloody murder on Mr. Labadie, or dancing on his grave, probably owe him an apology. Or should now start calling for Rich's head too. (And technically the same people at WV). Because he's equally to blame...along with a lot of other people. Assuming one didn't want to be a hypocrite. But it's all silly, because while there's a lot of blame to go around, I see the most blame going on not a man or people, but an organization with at least ONE (and probably not "just") really vague rule.
You make good points here and in your response to me above. I guess I've always read into compliance asking for the job descriptions to indicate that they knew something was up, but as you point out, that isn't necessarily true.
As for Labadie, I agree. It just seems like he got cornered into a no-win situation and decided to just stop doing anything. Certainly not appropriate, but maybe not as nefarious as previously indicated.
Boy, we've got a lot (and more) of new coaches...can we see what they all do? Coaches WV thought were doing ok things, before and after Rich. Maybe our compliance is smarter than WV's...I'd like to think so...maybe they'd have caught it. And I don't want to absolve us of blame; I don't like violations, if any sort, ever. We have a coach who, probably innocently, encourages and oversees things that are technically against the rules (if anyone can actually figure them out); a guy who didn't turn in his forms, why I can't say...though put under a new boss, while still beholden to other masters is tricky, and while the old fallback is "just do your job, and fo it well, and let the chips fall", anyone who has worked any amount of time knows it's not that easy to report something bad that may get your boss in trouble (and if one doesn't think most of these people don't "answer" to a head football coach, he/she has no idea how an Athletic Department works); and compliance people that maybe could have saved the day if they had said "tell someone to give us the f'ing forms!!- Martin, Rich, anybody!! But we're getting scolded for it, and we'll take our lumps. And I have a feeling, being Michigan, we're going to see a revision and clarification of the rule.
My concern in all this is intent. Without showing me more, and knowing the values have, and how they'd judge Rich's, I don't buy this was a conscious act. Manslaughter, not murder. Or maybe more appropriate, even than speeding, driving with your breaklights out. It's against the rules, and actually dangerous, but till someone tells you there's a problem you continue doing it. If someone can show me knowing effort, or in the future there even continues to be carelessness (which isn't excused by knowledge or lack thereof) then I'm going to have a major problem. You don't get the 3rd strike.
Labadie ROYALLY screwed up, and that's why he is now out of athletics and with Blue Cross/Blue Shield. If the CARA forms had been turned in on time, there is no NCAA investigation.
CARA forms are not an NCAA requirement. They're just an in-house means to tracking things. The same things that were being done at WV, and weren't flagged by their compliance department. So you can't state with ant certainty that our department would have flagged it either. While possible, it's no more likely. Or you are saying WV wasn't filing their equivalent CARA-like forms, and compliance there WOULD have flagged it too, which would look far worse for Rich, because then it would look like he's stonewalling and really fostering an atmosphere of non-compliance. But that's even MORE ridiculous speculation.
It's quite possible hhe left because it was felt he could no longer effectively do his job because of the hanging posse that formed mostly from this site, for something that while partly his fault, was no less Rich's, or any number of people. But whereas people who wrongly call for Rich's job are shouted down, there's almost a perverse glee taken in blaming and trying to fire everyone else. And when you think of these as people (and not people earning millions of dollars like a head coach), it's kinda disgusting.
If all of Michigan football's CARA reports had been timely and properly handled according to Michigan's own procedures (not, as you rightly point out, any NCAA rules), then there would have been no July, 2009 CARA-Audit memo.
Without that memo being leaked (despite the fact that the Auditors themselves thought there was no violation, and they said so), there would have been no August, 2009, Rosenberg/Snyder/Free Press story.
Without that (fabricated) story, there would have been no NCAA investigation.
But in any regard, that would mean the violations would still be going on. Which isn't a good thing. Not a great thing we're the only one getting hoisted on our own petard (well, one of two, now, at this point)...but your logic that if the violations were done, but if reporting went on normally, and it wasn't caught, so no one had to ask if there were violations being committed, so there wouldn't be paperwork that someone could wrongly leak, that the Freep could run with, and make stuff up with, so the NCAA would come in, and find the original stuff that did happen but the Freep wasn't claiming...is more than a bit convoluted. So I think I'm still more right than you.
If WVU continued to follow the previous practice of practice, then it would seem the new incoming coach (Stewart) would also be unaware of the rules. Do we actually think for one minute that Stewart would knowingly break the rules as a newly crowned HC? For anyone to insinuate that RR is a cheat is a huge reach. It appears that these so-called rules are arbitrary and capricious at best. The NCAA should clean them up before punishing anyone. I think we need to keep this in perspective; these charges are about stretching, not about buying athletes vehicles and other goodies. This is ridiculous in my opinion.
It just sucks that this is coming forward because the national spotlight is once again shined brightly on RR. This honestly did not change my opinion of him because the rules he broke does not make him a dirty man. The only thing I am concerned about is how this will affect the NCAA's ruling against Michigan on August 13th.
Here's a decent article on the investigation - except for the part where the former WVU President throws RR under the bus.
"Based on what I've read and what I understand from the letter from the NCAA, the bulk of the alleged NCAA violations are precisely the type of things Rodriguez was asking for in those final contract negotiations and precisely the type of things certain donors - and some of our more vocal donors - wanted me to give him," said former WVU President Mike Garrison.
"Whatever he wanted, they said, 'Please, just do it and whatever it costs we'll pay for it.' It was precisely the type of thing we told him we couldn't do because of NCAA rules. It goes right to the heart of why he said we blew up his deal."
At the suggestion of rule-breaking that they allowed Bill Stewart to continue it until just this very year. I call B.S.
Garrison sez "we told [Rodriguez] he couldn't do [what he wanted] because of NCAA rules." So I guess, per Garrison, WVU refused to let Rodriguez pursue his nefarious practices, so he left. Once he was gone, though, WVU evidently green-lighted the very same practices by Stewart (or so the NCAA alleges, at least). And, according to the NCAA, WVU had been doing this same stuff all along, both under Rodriguez and Stewart. So, yeah, Garrison's comments make all kinds of sense!
RR wasn't asking for the wrong type of personnel to watch summer practices or more stretching time, he was asking for textbooks and free tickets for HS coaches and a website. I think Mr. Garrison has been talking to Mr. Hand.
I like the NCAA cracking down on this stuff. If the practices are supposed to be voluntary and unsupervised, then they should be.
I have no problem believing RR had voluntary workouts at WV and M supervised. I have no problem believing that voluntary workouts are not voluntary in RR's world. If true RR needs to change his ways and get in compliance.
"Unsupervised" is distinctly not the rule, which is entirely the problem here. There are "allowed" supervisors on the field during "voluntary practices" for "safety" reasons. Those people are "not countable". The issue seems to be when "safety" becomes "coaching" and when S&C coaches and GAs are countable and not countable; again, these rules don't appear to be readily apparent, either.
Which is, frankly, the only problem I have with the "75 in a 70 mph zone" analogy. In that analogy, everyone knows the rules, but willfully disregards them. Here, its not clear that anyone knows the correct rule; not U-M, not WVU, not Coach Rod, not Lloyd Carr, not Bill Stewart.
For instance, in Michigan, there is a law on the books which says, "No man may seduce and corrupt an unmarried girl", or else he risks a five year prison term. How many people are guilty of that offense? Did you know it was even a law? Probably not. Should you go to jail for it anyway?
I don't know the correct rule either, however, I would not be surprised to find out that RR flaunted the rule. RR at his initial presser, talked about kids working harder than they ever have before. RR surely let it be known at his hiring that voluntary would not be voluntary, and in this, I disagree with RR.
The scenario leading up to last year's opener: negative press about RR, and opening game that had the potential to be an upset, but ended up being an ass thrashing by the boys in blue. Here we are a year later, and guess what? Yeah. I've said it on a previous thread, those poor bastards (being UConn) don't know what they're in store for.
... Revenge Tour, opening date 4 Sept 2010.
I will be there, screaming my fool head off when they run onto the field.
basically he has done the same thing from 2005. who was to think that he changed it up so much once he got here. he kept the same policies and no one in either department/university knew there was something wrong.........maybe check that side more.
From what I've read, he hasn't been 'invited' by the NCAA to particpate in the repsonse by WVU. Seems totally unfair to accuse someone of something and not allow them to defend themselves, even if it would essentially be a duplication of his defense in the Michigan case.
Hopefully the current WVU brass won't follow the lead of what Mike 'Sour Grapes' Garrison is quoted with in the Charleston paper in their repsonse.