On motownsports an MSU fan was using the allegations at WVU to somehow vindicate how now, more than ever, we know RR is a cheater and a bad guy. I just aksed, regardless of your conclusion on whether it was an honest mistake or knowingly cheating why are you treating it as new news. We were already aware this happened at Michigan so wouldnt it stand to reason that if this was the system he had in place he did it at WVU as well. Seemed like a no brainer to me.
RR's Connection to WVU Allegations, Why is This a Big Deal?
Reasoning with a poster on mlive, motownsports, etc., is just a losing proposition. And a waste of time.
way people in the MSM in detroit are going to use this to pile onto richrod... just be thankful that valenti is on vacation this week...
Hey guys, this is no different than a potential story that says " Rich Rod doesn't beat his wife since moving to Michigan" It doesn't mean that he beat her before, it is just fodder. There are 29 days left until the season. Practice starts Monday, there are so many other things to talk about that haven't been hashed to death. For this collection of bloggers this is not news.
It's not that big a deal. Keep in mind the radio guys need something to talk about, and for some (we all know who I mean), they'll take any reason to bash RichRod.
These new allegations are not proof that he's dirty, because, you're right, it's just as easy to conclude that it was an honest mistake and he just carried on the same practices.
What really upsets me is this just adds life to this story. With the hearings coming up in Seattle, I was hoping it would put all of this behind us. Now it just keeps the story going.
IMO, you have to be naive to believe that. It's much more probable that RR, like, in my estimation, 90% of all head coaches at BCS programs, was monitoring summer workouts through grad assistants and quality control people. I actually don't believe for a second that he didn't know this happened. And that it happened at WVA actually improves the odds that this was not a mistake on his part.
To be clear, I do not think these violations are an indication that he is "dirty" or "cheating," nor do I consider these things "major." I think this is an area that coaches routinely push and stretch the limits of the rules. But I don't think these were honest mistakes either.
I wasn't trying to indicate that RR is clean, only that this information doesn't move the needle towards clean or dirty. If he is knowingly cheating (or pushing the limits), he was doing it then and was doing it when he got to AA. If it was an honest mistake, he was doing it then, and when he got to AA.
As much as I want to believe that he had no idea that he was breaking the rules, I can't see how he and his staff at either school wasn't trying to push the envelope as far as the rules are concerned or trying to coach from afar.
It very may be that most major programs are doing similar things,but the fact that RR's staff at two schools apparently have had non-coaching staff members "coaching" players in off seasons drills says either he is trying to stretch the rules or doesn't know them. Either way that is a scary scenario because it opens the jar of questions of what else he is not aware of?
I believe he's a good guy and obviously an excellent coach, but some doubt about his attention to some details is disturbing. I also agree that his doing it at both places does say a lot about him not starting this just because he was at Michigan. The bad part of this could be that if the NCAA forces him to cut back on recruiting time on the road, that would again hurt Michigan. We'll have to wait and see what happens in Seattle.
The entire question of whether he cheated or not is built on one point, whether part time QC staffers can be considered part time Interdepartmental S&C staff in the off season.
Since the NCAA rules say it is OK for S&C staff with interdepartmental responsibilities can be present at voluntary workouts (for saftey reasons), then if the QC staffers have become S&C staffers in the off season it would be OK for them to be there, and any activiy conducted while they were there would be voluntary.
Because that interpretation was not OK (even though NCAA regulations are not explicit on the point), then every moment a QC staffer was acting as a S&C staffer becomes a countable athletic related activity.
The other question is whether 7 on 7 drills are voluntary workouts or not. (If not even S&C staff should not be present.)
Beyond that, the NCAA regulations are pretty clear on the number of coaches, and that staff who are not coaches cannot do coaching activities, but before our investigation not much definition seems to have been in place as to what constitues coaching activity.
Who knew helping someone stretch, attending a coaches meeting (keep in mind QC staff are there to learn how to coach), or throwing a ball back to a quarterback was considered coaching.
Rich's defense at UofM seems to be they had the OK from the compliance department to use the QC staffers as S&C staffers in the off season. This was based on a mis-communication between the football dept .and the compliance dept. and the NCAA. If that is true, then he thought they were there in a capacity in line with NCAA regulations. I.e., he is not a dirty cheater ...
violations to me say that this is a BS excuse. He's been defended by many saying in effect, "our crappy compliance office screwed up." I guess now they will say WVA's compliance office was incompetent too? Perhaps, but I don't buy it. I believe that there is a 90% probability that he knew he was pushing it or violating it in both places, but felt it was commonplace to try to get around these rules and so he did.
I want him as our coach this year and think there is nothing about any of these violations that should change his job status in any way. But let's take off the rose colored glasses IMO and see it for what I believe it is--a conscious effort to improve the team by pushing the boundaries of the rules both here and at WVA.
I see what you're saying. RR can't blame Michigan's compliance office anymore, because this happened, apparently, at WVA too.
What's even worse: didn't UM just hire WVA's Compliance guy to replace Brad LaBadie?
Brad Labadie did not work in the Compliance Services Office. Michigan did not hire "WVU's Compliance guy."
Coach Rodriguez did not "blame Michigan's compliance office." Coach Rodriguez was not accused of any NCAA violations in connection with Compliance Services Office or CARA issues. The one and only allegation against Head Coach Rodriguez at Michigan was that he "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance." That is the only allegation made in connection with his tenure at WVU. It is the exact same allegation that they are making against Bill Stewart at WVU.
at 2 different programs. So you believe his failure to monitor this at WVA and here was a simple, hones mistake two schools in a row? Feel free to believe that, but I think that's silly and willfully naive.
Again, IMO this is not an offense that merits any change in our thinking about him as a coach and person, but come on, it's just strains credibility to believe that he didn't know this was happening and that it was a rules issue--twice in a row.
What I am saying is that the concocted story by the Free Press compelled the NCAA to carefully investigate Michigan's monitoring of practices. And in the course of an investigation costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and involving hundreds of attorney hours -- surprise -- they found some violations of the NCAA's phonebook-sized rules on monitoring practice time.
As a part of its Michigan investigation, the NCAA looked into similar matters at WVU and -- surprise -- they found the same things. Meanwhile, The Ohio State University is self-reporting violations, the Columbus Dispatch's own Buckeye beat reporter is trying to figure out what that team is really doing, and the NCAA is continuing to adjust the rules in question.
A rational person would say, "Wow, what a bunch of flailing around for mostly nothing." A credulous Free Press reader would probably be asking, "My gosh how do they let this man continue at Michigan?"
BILL STEWART DID IT TOO! That means that EVERYBODY's compliance office is screwing up, and continues to screw up. If it had stopped as soon as he left, then yes. But no.
Or the NCAA's guidelines on countable hours and the job descriptoin of QC staffers is really so nebulous that Compliance Departments in schools around the country get this wrong all the time. The fact that two completely different organizations monitoring the activities of one coach produced similar mistakes just indicates to me that the NCAA needs to tighten up it's rulebook a bit.
... notice of allegations also state that this stuff was happening BEFORE Coach Rod arrived? Which means during Lloyd's time here too! I think the fact that it was happening here before his arrival and it continued to happen at WVU after his departure means the rules are not real clear on this stuff!
of RR's depravity. This master plan has been in place since BEFORE he got the job. The fact that he then cloned Bill Stewart in his lair to continue the practice at WVU just to cover his tracks shows that Dan Brown couldn't have drawn it up better.
I am sick of the MSM lapping this up without applying any brain cells to it. The fact that the practice happened before RR got here and that it continued after he left WVU really speaks to the NCAA rule itself and not the conduct of the coaches.
Actually, I see it the opposite way. If the WVA compliance department did not OK the use of QC staffers as S&C staffers, then why did they continue the practice for two years after Rich left right up until this spring when the allegations at Michigan were publically rolled out?
and the University's attorneys, and Coach Rodriguez, and Coach Rodriguez's attorneys, all disagree with you. And they've submitted about 110 pages worth of written response in that regard.
I expect that about 0.001% of Michigan football fans have read that response.
I expect that 98% of Michigan's fans have followed the story more or less through the Detroit Free Press. Not that everyone believes the Free Press reporting. Some number of Free Press readers (sadly, a small minority, probably) dispute and resent the Freep reporting.
But what does that leave, in terms of numbers? A very large portion of people in the State of Michigan who accept the Free Press reporting as accurate and significant. And a very large number of people in radio, television media in Michigan who are driven, even more superficially, by the Freep story. And a national sports media that is even more superficial when it comes to Michigan.
It is all an extremely ugly picture, very damaging to Michigan, and based on a "wildly exagerated if not flatly incorrect" original story. In the Free Press.
I am having a seriously bad day with duplicate posts. Maybe it is on my end of the Interwebs.
Why be thankful Valenti is on vacation? Who the hell cares what he would have to say. There is ZERO reason for any true UM fan to be listening to that self-serving blowhard. Let him pile on to his Spartan bretheren who managed a stellar 6-7 record last year, woo-hoo!!
I had no idea he was on vacation.
Valenti??? I don't even know what station he's on.
...a tempest in a teapot. Nominally excessive practice hours are no big deal to me at all -- especially when it's common knowledge that damn near every program in the country is guilty of the same thing. I believe every D1 coach is breathing a sigh of relief that RR is the scapegoat getting all the attention.
I have a video of a dude singing that looks like your avatar..lemme see if I can post it her for your viewing pleasure.
I would wager a guess that firstbase has seen the video and that's why he picked his avatar.
...and may I add, "TROLOLOLO!"
You can't honestly think he picked that avatar without seeing that video. Tell me it's a joke
easy peeps...now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
I would guess the WV compliance department gave the OK similar to ours. If this practice had stopped as soon as RR left I would be concerned as it would show prior intent.
The following things are going to happen:
1. Haters Gonna Hate
2. The ignorant and mostly disinterested will listen to whoever talks the loudest.
3. The NCAA will act professionally and not be swayed by either side.
4. You will lie back and take it like a man.
This shit is getting VERY old.
2. The ignorant are gonna beat it to death until Kiffin gets jealous and steals the headlines.
2a.The ESPN article mentions UM/RR more than it does WVU/Stewart so the "Spin" is "RR is a Cheater" not "Oops I misinterpreted the rule sorry let's move on."http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5440231
3. We'll see AUG 13th (please lets this be the end of the Drama)
4. yes still taking it like a man but I work in a building with weapons and I'm the unofficial UM spokesperson for my area of the world and I just want it to go away...(no I'm not going to go Postal but I can dream of the MSU/OSU/ND people fleeing in terror).
In summary, FUCK.
it's perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the NCAA for the head coach to yank a scholarship from a guy who has already moved into his dorm room. Yup, RR's the bad guy all right.
Maize and Blue...is right. This is an issue for the compliance department. It is the compliance department that interprets the rules that are handed down from the NCAA. If there is a question regarding the rules since since some of them are not entirely clear, it is up to the compliance department to tell the coach to keep doing what they are doing or to change what they are doing until they can get an interpretation from the NCAA.
The fact that RR apparently did similar things at WVU and UM is not surprising. The fact that two different compliance departments didn't do anything about it tells me that there are difficulties in interpreting the rule. I'm sure this will be made much clearer by the NCAA on the 14th. However, a new coach, as RR was at U of M, is not above the University's compliance department and it was up to them to say that things couldn't be run that way.
"The fact that two different compliance departments didn't do anything about it tells me that there are difficulties in interpreting the rule."
That's the money argument right there. AND, the fact that WVU didn't change AFTER RR left showed the rules interpretation wasn't driven by a nefarious scheme crafted by RR.
Nothing much to see here, folks...please move along to your regularly scheduled navel gazing and tea leave reading.
UM's compliance department did try to do something about it, they just failed miserably. If I remember correctly, they were requesting job descriptions on the QA guys in March of '08, three months into Rodriguez's tenure here. In my mind, this argues against the idea that there was difficulty interpreting the rule. UM's compliance people saw the issue, tried to do something about it, got stonewalled by the football program (Labadie for whatever reason), and failed escalate their inquiry to handle the issue.
The fact that they wanted standard paperwork they weren't getting doesn't mean if they had received it they would have interpreted it any differently than WV's people did. Maybe they would have...they're different people. Maybe they would have said "hey, I don't know if you were doing this before, but we think it's against the rules"...but they just as likely could interpret it no differently than compliance at other schools.
I really don't get the witch-hunt here. I know the NCAA is "protecting" the student athlete and protecting the "integrity" of the game (wink, wink), but this should have all been taken care of in one fell swoop. At this point they are just dragging it out for the media. They asked for this information back when they launched the investigation at Michigan, and they are just now getting around to announcing the violations. Do they have the Freep running this darn thing. The confusing part is how they are treating a coach and school who were very transparent and completely compliant on all fronts, when other coaches who hide and run during one of these investigations gets away very little media. There are a number of coaches in the NCAA who get a program in trouble and run to a new job, get that one in trouble and then head off for another job all the while they dodge the NCAA at every front. These guys are repeat offenders who are never held culpable. Yet they are continuing a witch-hunt on a coach and school who comply.
It's a big deal to the MSM because they can milk it for clicks, views, phone calls, and Neilsen ratings. It's a big deal for MSU fans because it helps deflect focus on their eleven or so scholly players who now have documented adult criminal records. It's a big deal for OSU fans because it makes their stupendous "lead" in self-reported minor violations "disappear" for awhile.
Most of all, it's a big deal to WVU, their admins, and fans, becuase they can use it to "justify" their hatred and "psycho-ex" behavior toward RR and turn "mea culpa" into "see, we knew RR was 'dirty' all along." Eventually, they will have themselves convinced that RR leaving was good for their program.
I still haven't figured out what the NCAA "gains" by all of this piling on. It was they who changed their own interpretation of their own rules and decided to hold coaches "responsible" for resulting "violations" in the first place. All they really needed here was a clarification to take effect starting last year.
They have already caused a coach whose "violations" are exactly what everyone else was doing a lot of suffering that he doesn't deserve. They have already caused Michigan players, coaches, admins, and fans a lot of suffering that they don't deserve. If they really want to look "tough," all they have to do is void Lane Kiffin's contract with USC on the grounds that it was his dishonesty that helped provide the environment of non-compilaince at USC. It would be a lot more high-profile than what they are doing now.
I want the season to get here ASAP, so the focus can be on football and winning, and we can forget about this crap. If RR and Michigan win, the media will start "forgetting" about it, too. But it will only happen when the wins are enough to provide more clicks and views to the MSM. Until then, we are probably stuck with it.
I think the issue more pertains to the future restrictions placed on Coach Rod himself. Here's an excerpt from Rothstein at AA.com.
What might change is Michigan’s approach to next week’s NCAA meeting, at least according to Michael Buckner, a Florida attorney who frequently represents universities in NCAA cases.
“For the Michigan hearing, the West Virginia Notice of Allegations will not have a direct impact on the actual proceedings of the hearing because they are separate and distinct cases,” Buckner said. “However, it’s going to be the silent entity in the hearing room. Everyone’s going to know about it but no one’s going to talk about it.
“And if I was Michigan and if I was coach Rodriguez, the West Virginia case would impact my hearing strategy.”
The reasoning behind this, Buckner said, is because the NCAA can place a “show cause” order on Rodriguez out of the Michigan hearings, which the school would then have to monitor.
And when West Virginia goes in front of the committee, if Rodriguez is found guilty there, the punishment on Rodriguez could escalate in the number of years the order is in place, the number of days he can be on the field coaching or the number of days Rodriguez can recruit off-campus. Plus, he can be found as a repeat violator during the West Virginia hearings if he has a show-cause order attached during the Michigan hearings, Buckner said.
So this makes it sound like he could be potentially limited in his time on the field at Michigan and when recruiting. Seems utterly ridiculous that our program suffers twice. I think a personal fine would be more appropriate in the WVU case. Either way, while I do agree that this is just more off-season space-filler, it is mildly concerning because anytime you lose your coach on the field it's never a great situation. In the end I'm faithful that a winning season will at the very least shut the media up.
I mean the point was that he didn't know that certain activities were not counted as part of practice time. He didn't know at WVU and didn't know at Michigan (or in other words, both Universities didn't really care what he did, or knew and didn't stop him).
It's just how he operated.
My question is how is WVU impacted? Their current coach was on RR's staff and their compliance department sure didn't come with RR.
Rich Rod is the man. I think it was an honest mistake. If you listen to his interviews and read what recruits and players are saying about him, he seems like a honest and great Michigan Man. As long as recruits and our players and most people within the program think it, I'm perfectly happy with him being the head coach of Michigan.
Like every other coach in the country, RR likes to be around football, he likes to be around his players getting better, and he likes to coach. Like every other coach in the country, RR knew and knows that there are rules in place as to coaching involvement by himself and staff just like a driver knows there is a speed limit on the express way. Like every other coach in the country, RR figured that pretty much everybody does 75 in a 70 and the policeman on the side of the road doesn't give a shit. So, like every other coach in the country, he paid attention to his "speed" to the extent that he knew he could not go 85, but he looked at the road most of the time instead of having his eyes constantly focused on the spedometer and set the cruise at 75 as he had come to believe it was a safe and implicitly compliant speed.
The Freep Press article reported RR's practices like they were the brutal torture of defenseless baby animals and forced the NCAA's hand into invesstigating the situation and finding what they already knew they would find, and invetiably lead to an investigation of WVU, where again, the NCAA found out that RR had been going 75 in a 70 for a long time. As such, Michigan and WVU are going to both get traffic tickets, and both are going to have to pay a little closer attention to their spedometers for a couple of years, and will result in hightened compliance from the rest of the country because they don't want a ticket.
For those that see what the want to see and hear what they want to hear, this argument DOES NOT attempt to excuse the conduct, he should have been doing the speed limit, but you should have too on the way into work this morning. There are rules and then there are RULES. You should not break either, but a rule is not a RULE, and breaking a rule while still adhering to the spirit of the rule is not the same as taking a shit on RULE because you want to win games, period. By comparison, USC drank a fifth of vodka, stole car, drove the wrong way down the express way and T-Boned a family of four. For the RR haters, all the RR supporters are asking for is a little perspective, that is all, just a little. Nobody is excusing the conduct, but a little perspective is necessary to form a balanced opinion of this man and his practices.
This changes nothing, RR has to win this year. 8-4 and this shit dies a natural death. 4-8 and he will be fired, not for the speeding ticket, but for simply not winning.
That's a good analogy. When this all came down you didn't hear of many coaches that were appalled at what was going on because they are doing the same thing. The compliance department now has to become like my wife. "slow down your going over the speed limit. If you get another ticket your in deep Sh#%."
On the surface, it's hard not to recognize a pattern here. But the fact that it continued on 2 years POST Rodriquez strengthens the argument that the rules are vague/ambiguous. If the rules against using this personnel are so crystal clear, why did WVa's coaches and adminstration continue to do it after Coach Rod left campus?
This is the only reply anyone here needs to read.
This is a big deal because part of the allegations concern the conduct and the attitude of Rodriguez himself. Up until now, the Michigan violations have been blamed on a combination of Athletic Department idiocy and one overzealous assistant who got fired. It's a lot harder to make either one of those arguments now.
See any of the multiple posts pointing out that the practice continued at WVU after RR's departure.
Was the assistant who got fired from UM working for West Virginia?
Were the compliance department people from UM working for WVU at the same time?
Michigan can no longer blame this on a few isolated dumbass beauracrats who suck at paperwork or an overzealous assistant.
The practice may have continued under Stewart, but it started under Rodriguez. Two different sets of compliance people. Rodriguez is the common denominator. That makes it harder to persuade somebody that Rodriguez promotes an atmosphere of compliance.
This is a very good point. At the end of the day, I still view these violations as ticky-tack stuff that probably occurs in most programs, but for those of us that have been defenders of RR (myself included), the defense becomes that much more difficult to make with a straight face. Michigan did NOT have these issues prior to RR's arrival. The problems started when RR came. Now, we find out that these problems were something that RR was doing for a couple of years while he was at WVU, as well.
That said, it really could be that he simply had an erroneous interpretation of these rules, and he carried that interpretation with him from WVU to UM, but from a purely "optics" point of view, this doesn't look good.
UM stated in their response to the allegations that they found instances of non compliance back into the '07 season (or was it '06?).
I see your points (Hannibal and michgoblue) and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just saying I don't believe it's as big of a hit as you're making it out to be. I'm more in line with the poster who earlier wrote that these new developments really don't move the needle either way.
I'm not sure as I recall it that that was the case. The CARA forms were backlogged before Rich got here, but I don't remember them saying Grad Coaches were found to be monitoring practices beforehand. But it was a lot to remember...
and discipline against WVU results in Michigan is brought back in front of the infractions committee as to why additional discpline should not be imposed, the "cause" is that the conduct at WVU predated the conduct at Michigan, could not have been readily ascertained by the Michigan athletic department, and had nothing to do with Michigan. How would WVU sanctions make Michigan a repeat offender?
The crime is KNOWINGLY receiving stolen property. Not buying something you later find out is stolen.
Michael Buckner is a huge self-promoter. We've yet to see if any of his predictions actually come true (though we could see if what he said about what his claims on what the original violations were...I'm guessing he came down harsher than it actually played out, as is his tendency). I'd trust the bylog blog more...if we could anymore...(grumble...f'in jackass).
Edit: Is this guy holding press conferences? Almost word for word, to the Detroit News...yet he kinda contradicts himself, saying it won't have that much affect on Michigan-
While one legal expert said this latest revelation should not affect Michigan's appearance before the Committee on Infractions, the committee undoubtedly will know of this latest issue that also involves Rodriguez.
"It's going to be that silent person in the room that everyone knows is there but that no one is going to talk about," said Michael Buckner, a Florida lawyer who has represented universities in NCAA investigations. "The committee only considers the case before it -- West Virginia is not before them."
Buckner said this latest information should directly affect Michigan's strategy before its hearing. He said it's unlikely U-M brings up the West Virginia investigation either directly or indirectly.
"The only way I can see West Virginia coming into the Michigan case is if there are questions for Michigan about when they hired coach Rodriguez, what type of due diligence did they do."
it could cause him to be suspended for practices, recruit visits, maybe even more. The ncaa really smells blood and is going after RR imo.
WVU claims they told and warned him that he was not following the rules. WVU in hindsight shot itself in the foot. It released that claim seemingly to distance itself from UM and RR and the ncaa investigation but now it shows that they knew he was noncompliant but did not enforce the rules with him or Stewart.
It is a nightmare for RR to say the least, now he will have to provide 2 responses, go to two hearing, and get two verdicts. Lots of money going to defend this too. If RR doesn't succeed at UM, his prospects look extremely dim in the college FB world.
who has been supplying quotes, on demand, to the Free Press and AA.com, since the beginning of the NCAA investigation.
I think you have wildly exagerated and misinterpreted the WVU response. Bill Stewart is now the bearer of the exact same allegation as to Rich Rodriguez; "failure to encourage an atmosphere of compliance."
The Florida attorney "expert" mentioned that in other cases involving (one can only presume, since he didn't make it clear) violations, coaches were sanctioned with restrictions on recruiting visits. There were no recruiting violations alleged at Michigan. There are no recruiting violations alleged at WVU. There will be no "recruiting" sanctions imposed on Rich Rodriuguez.
but that's me. I don't see how any coach who is personally implicated by the ncaa for actions taking place at two schools walk away with no punishment, however innocent his acts may be or seem. The ncaa will direct some of its ire or flex its muscle directly at the coach, just to prove a point, which seems to be the ncaa's new mantra. I also don't recall any of UM's self-imposed sanctions that limit RR individually. RR is claiming to be 100% non-culpable which is fine but I just find it hard to believe the ncaa will let him move on unscathed.
And then read the University of Michigan's response. There is only one allegation pertaining to Rodriguez in the Michigan case; it is for his allegedly failing to "encourage an atmosphere of compliance."
The NCAA expects all of its member schools to be self-enforcing. That is the credo that they all sign onto, with participation in the NCAA. The NCAA says that it doesn't have the power or the resources to be essentially a prosecutor.
And so with the investigation of 2009-10, Michigan's own lawyers co-investigated with NCAA lawyers. And Michigan admitted to all but one allegation, and self-imposed sanctions that were responsive to each and every self-admitted allegation.
The one allegation that Michigan denied, and the only allegation that Rich Rodriguez needed to respond to, was the allegation that Coach Rodriguez failed to encoruage and atmosphere of compliance.
I expect the NCAA to accept Michigan's self-imposed sanctions, because I think that is all that the evidence supports. Yes, I do not think that there should be any additional sanctions with respect to, or in the form of a show cause order regarding Rich Rodriguez, because I believe my University and its very fine lawyers, and I believe Coach Rodriguez and his lawyer, and I haven't seen a shred of evidence of Coach Rodriguez failing to encourage an atmosphere of compliance.
I don't know why one illegitimate allegation by the NCAA should give credence to another allegation.
[double-post, sorry; is the Board working very badly today for anyone else?]
And by bowling, I mean crush the living hell out of UConn.
I'm now crabby as hell.
I don't care what comes first.
The Zombie Apocalypse or Sep 4th I'm ready for both just fucking get here please.
interpret this stuff. I moved on months ago and just want to see one of our players knock someones helmet off on Sept 4th. Go Blue!!!
I'd be more convinced that RR is willing to cheat if his behavior changed under different compliance departments. To me, that would be more indicative of someone pushing the limits of what they can get away with.
Seems to me the one thing consistent between U of M + RR, WVU + RR, and WVU + Stewart is the NCAA's incomprehensible rules.
Has anyone pointed out that Rodriguez is the one who told the NCAA to go investigate WVU?
He flat out told ncaa investigators that he had been running things the same way since 2005. The WVU allegations have no bearing on the August hearing. The NCAA was already fully aware of how Rodriguez was running things and the length of time he was doing it.
.... MgoShoe and wolverine1987, that is.
The WVa allegations make Michigan's hearing in a week more complicated and Coach Rod's defense more difficult.
They also place Michigan squarely back in the press spotlight on the eve of a new season for all the wrong reasons. It's not just the [PAPER REDACTED] anymore.
It was good that AD Brandon put out a quick statement in support of Coach Rod. The latter's margin for error at this point is exceedingly small.
I like the Coach, I think he can succeed, but any Michigan fan that doesn't see all this as very negative for the program and the University are just trading the rose colored glasses in for blinders.
In related news, according to the [PAPER REDACTED], one of the members of the NCAA panel hearing Michigan's case is a deputy AD of Notre Dame!
The fix is in?
more difficult. If the NCAA even ASKS about WVU, RichRod merely says the truth, that he has been running things the same way because he though that was correct. As did Bill Stewart, as did Lloyd Carr. Yes, we had GA doing wrong things under LC too. It will not upset our defense nor make our punishment any worse.
Edit: Also, the last thing ND wants is for us to get totally screwed. They love their moneymaking rivalry with us way too much.
Sven... the NCAA already knew. This cannot affect Rodriguez in anyway. So now he misinterpreted the rules for 4 years instead of one and a half. The NCAA knew this. He told the NCAA that he had been running things the same way at WVU. The CARA forms not being turned in is a UofM compliance problem. Did anyone notice that in 3 years at WVU, Rodriguez only exceeded practice limits by a totaly of 1 hour and 15 minutes?
Too many grad assistants and non-coaches being involved in coaches meetings and unofficial practices are the allegations that fall squarly on Rodriguez for misinterpreting rules. He'd been doing this for 4 years, and let NCAA investigators know about it.
... but all I know is the only "violation" Michigan is challenging is that Coach Rod "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance."
The WVa allegations would seem to support this finding by showing some historical pattern.
They aren't directly relevant to the Michigan facts, but they could exert an influence on panel members. They read the news, too, even, heaven forbid, [PAPER REDACTED].
And certainly WVa has the means and the motive to throw Coach Rod under the bus.
Incorrect. This only means that compliance departments around the country have no idea how to interpret NCAA rules. The fact that WVU and UM thought what Rod doing was within the rules validates his actions as honest mistakes. Compliance is responsible for interpreting and certifying coaches' actions. Further, the actions continued under Stewart and WVU compliance did nothing. If they throw RR under the bus, they are also throwing Stewart under the bus. Not going to happen.
... my experience with (non-NCAA) compliance matters tells me that "there are no technical violations." The violation in question is explicitly directed at Coach Rod, fairly or unfairly.
From the standpoint of a regulator, whether a violation is an "honest mistake" goes to penalty, not the existence of the violation in the first place. The fact that "others do it" will fail in front of the NCAA, as it will in front of your local judge when you fight a speeding ticket,
I'm getting the feeling that the NCAA sort of knew about some of this stuff at WVa before they handed down the Michigan violations, especially #5. Sort of a scholastic/athletic sandbagging, if you will.
If we start winning -- this is water under the bridge and it doesn't matter.
If we don't start winning -- RR will be fired for a lack of winning, not because of this, and it doesn't matter.
But what if we're in a 6-6 gray area? Or end up with a disappointing 7-5 record? In those situations I could see the plug being pulled due to the general air of bad publicity around the program.
Because it really doesn't make Rich look better or worse, because he was either working in good faith or knowingly cheating. I guess it makes it apparent that it's not something that was only already happening at Michigan, and was something he started here; but if two schools weren't sure it was wrong, you can't really blame him for that. Likewise, the hell and fury of this site came down on Labadie, painting it was all Brad's fault, if only he had filed the forms it all would have been caught...and that's obviously now not the case. Because assuming they even were filed/monitored at WV it means their compliance dept. didn't see it as a violation, and didn't see it as one after Stewart took over either. (And if they didn't do the paperwork at WV, it shows the lack of importance put on such things). There's really no guarantee, and actual evidence against it, that if compliance had gotten the CARA forms that what was going on would be seen as a violation. It may have, but as WV shows, it likely may not have.
This is not to say that the paperwork shouldn't have been filed, and mistakes weren't made. Just that this was not just an error of one man's paperwork. On a smaller level, it's a coach who likes to use a lot of staff, who was never told not to at a previous school (and the school thought it was alright to keep doing it after he left), bringing the practice with him to his new school; an assistant not filing the paperwork that MAY have flagged it as impermissible; a compliance dept. that didn't go to someone to insist they get it (and may not have had a problem with it to begin with if they had); and management that didn't monitor all of it. But that just hides the bigger problem- that it's readily obvious the rule is extremely vague, and either a great deal if people at a lot of schools don't clearly understand it, or just think it's a stupid rule. There are probably dozens of schools changing their practices right now because they see now that it's a problem. The same way that you slow down when you see someone pulled over by a cop. Take that away, and the rest of the rule violation stuff is super minor.
But what it shows, people who were calling bloody murder on Mr. Labadie, or dancing on his grave, probably owe him an apology. Or should now start calling for Rich's head too. (And technically the same people at WV). Because he's equally to blame...along with a lot of other people. Assuming one didn't want to be a hypocrite. But it's all silly, because while there's a lot of blame to go around, I see the most blame going on not a man or people, but an organization with at least ONE (and probably not "just") really vague rule.
You make good points here and in your response to me above. I guess I've always read into compliance asking for the job descriptions to indicate that they knew something was up, but as you point out, that isn't necessarily true.
As for Labadie, I agree. It just seems like he got cornered into a no-win situation and decided to just stop doing anything. Certainly not appropriate, but maybe not as nefarious as previously indicated.
Boy, we've got a lot (and more) of new coaches...can we see what they all do? Coaches WV thought were doing ok things, before and after Rich. Maybe our compliance is smarter than WV's...I'd like to think so...maybe they'd have caught it. And I don't want to absolve us of blame; I don't like violations, if any sort, ever. We have a coach who, probably innocently, encourages and oversees things that are technically against the rules (if anyone can actually figure them out); a guy who didn't turn in his forms, why I can't say...though put under a new boss, while still beholden to other masters is tricky, and while the old fallback is "just do your job, and fo it well, and let the chips fall", anyone who has worked any amount of time knows it's not that easy to report something bad that may get your boss in trouble (and if one doesn't think most of these people don't "answer" to a head football coach, he/she has no idea how an Athletic Department works); and compliance people that maybe could have saved the day if they had said "tell someone to give us the f'ing forms!!- Martin, Rich, anybody!! But we're getting scolded for it, and we'll take our lumps. And I have a feeling, being Michigan, we're going to see a revision and clarification of the rule.
My concern in all this is intent. Without showing me more, and knowing the values have, and how they'd judge Rich's, I don't buy this was a conscious act. Manslaughter, not murder. Or maybe more appropriate, even than speeding, driving with your breaklights out. It's against the rules, and actually dangerous, but till someone tells you there's a problem you continue doing it. If someone can show me knowing effort, or in the future there even continues to be carelessness (which isn't excused by knowledge or lack thereof) then I'm going to have a major problem. You don't get the 3rd strike.
Labadie ROYALLY screwed up, and that's why he is now out of athletics and with Blue Cross/Blue Shield. If the CARA forms had been turned in on time, there is no NCAA investigation.
CARA forms are not an NCAA requirement. They're just an in-house means to tracking things. The same things that were being done at WV, and weren't flagged by their compliance department. So you can't state with ant certainty that our department would have flagged it either. While possible, it's no more likely. Or you are saying WV wasn't filing their equivalent CARA-like forms, and compliance there WOULD have flagged it too, which would look far worse for Rich, because then it would look like he's stonewalling and really fostering an atmosphere of non-compliance. But that's even MORE ridiculous speculation.
It's quite possible hhe left because it was felt he could no longer effectively do his job because of the hanging posse that formed mostly from this site, for something that while partly his fault, was no less Rich's, or any number of people. But whereas people who wrongly call for Rich's job are shouted down, there's almost a perverse glee taken in blaming and trying to fire everyone else. And when you think of these as people (and not people earning millions of dollars like a head coach), it's kinda disgusting.
If all of Michigan football's CARA reports had been timely and properly handled according to Michigan's own procedures (not, as you rightly point out, any NCAA rules), then there would have been no July, 2009 CARA-Audit memo.
Without that memo being leaked (despite the fact that the Auditors themselves thought there was no violation, and they said so), there would have been no August, 2009, Rosenberg/Snyder/Free Press story.
Without that (fabricated) story, there would have been no NCAA investigation.
But in any regard, that would mean the violations would still be going on. Which isn't a good thing. Not a great thing we're the only one getting hoisted on our own petard (well, one of two, now, at this point)...but your logic that if the violations were done, but if reporting went on normally, and it wasn't caught, so no one had to ask if there were violations being committed, so there wouldn't be paperwork that someone could wrongly leak, that the Freep could run with, and make stuff up with, so the NCAA would come in, and find the original stuff that did happen but the Freep wasn't claiming...is more than a bit convoluted. So I think I'm still more right than you.
If WVU continued to follow the previous practice of practice, then it would seem the new incoming coach (Stewart) would also be unaware of the rules. Do we actually think for one minute that Stewart would knowingly break the rules as a newly crowned HC? For anyone to insinuate that RR is a cheat is a huge reach. It appears that these so-called rules are arbitrary and capricious at best. The NCAA should clean them up before punishing anyone. I think we need to keep this in perspective; these charges are about stretching, not about buying athletes vehicles and other goodies. This is ridiculous in my opinion.
It just sucks that this is coming forward because the national spotlight is once again shined brightly on RR. This honestly did not change my opinion of him because the rules he broke does not make him a dirty man. The only thing I am concerned about is how this will affect the NCAA's ruling against Michigan on August 13th.
Here's a decent article on the investigation - except for the part where the former WVU President throws RR under the bus.
"Based on what I've read and what I understand from the letter from the NCAA, the bulk of the alleged NCAA violations are precisely the type of things Rodriguez was asking for in those final contract negotiations and precisely the type of things certain donors - and some of our more vocal donors - wanted me to give him," said former WVU President Mike Garrison.
"Whatever he wanted, they said, 'Please, just do it and whatever it costs we'll pay for it.' It was precisely the type of thing we told him we couldn't do because of NCAA rules. It goes right to the heart of why he said we blew up his deal."
At the suggestion of rule-breaking that they allowed Bill Stewart to continue it until just this very year. I call B.S.
Garrison sez "we told [Rodriguez] he couldn't do [what he wanted] because of NCAA rules." So I guess, per Garrison, WVU refused to let Rodriguez pursue his nefarious practices, so he left. Once he was gone, though, WVU evidently green-lighted the very same practices by Stewart (or so the NCAA alleges, at least). And, according to the NCAA, WVU had been doing this same stuff all along, both under Rodriguez and Stewart. So, yeah, Garrison's comments make all kinds of sense!
RR wasn't asking for the wrong type of personnel to watch summer practices or more stretching time, he was asking for textbooks and free tickets for HS coaches and a website. I think Mr. Garrison has been talking to Mr. Hand.
I like the NCAA cracking down on this stuff. If the practices are supposed to be voluntary and unsupervised, then they should be.
I have no problem believing RR had voluntary workouts at WV and M supervised. I have no problem believing that voluntary workouts are not voluntary in RR's world. If true RR needs to change his ways and get in compliance.
"Unsupervised" is distinctly not the rule, which is entirely the problem here. There are "allowed" supervisors on the field during "voluntary practices" for "safety" reasons. Those people are "not countable". The issue seems to be when "safety" becomes "coaching" and when S&C coaches and GAs are countable and not countable; again, these rules don't appear to be readily apparent, either.
Which is, frankly, the only problem I have with the "75 in a 70 mph zone" analogy. In that analogy, everyone knows the rules, but willfully disregards them. Here, its not clear that anyone knows the correct rule; not U-M, not WVU, not Coach Rod, not Lloyd Carr, not Bill Stewart.
For instance, in Michigan, there is a law on the books which says, "No man may seduce and corrupt an unmarried girl", or else he risks a five year prison term. How many people are guilty of that offense? Did you know it was even a law? Probably not. Should you go to jail for it anyway?
I don't know the correct rule either, however, I would not be surprised to find out that RR flaunted the rule. RR at his initial presser, talked about kids working harder than they ever have before. RR surely let it be known at his hiring that voluntary would not be voluntary, and in this, I disagree with RR.
The scenario leading up to last year's opener: negative press about RR, and opening game that had the potential to be an upset, but ended up being an ass thrashing by the boys in blue. Here we are a year later, and guess what? Yeah. I've said it on a previous thread, those poor bastards (being UConn) don't know what they're in store for.
... Revenge Tour, opening date 4 Sept 2010.
I will be there, screaming my fool head off when they run onto the field.
basically he has done the same thing from 2005. who was to think that he changed it up so much once he got here. he kept the same policies and no one in either department/university knew there was something wrong.........maybe check that side more.
From what I've read, he hasn't been 'invited' by the NCAA to particpate in the repsonse by WVU. Seems totally unfair to accuse someone of something and not allow them to defend themselves, even if it would essentially be a duplication of his defense in the Michigan case.
Hopefully the current WVU brass won't follow the lead of what Mike 'Sour Grapes' Garrison is quoted with in the Charleston paper in their repsonse.