Wow, I was just about to post this. I was going to post the Freep link just to get Section 1 all riled up. Looks like the same things happened when Rich Rod was at West Virginia. How can anyone call this the Freep jihad anymore?
RR and Bill Stewart guilty of practice time violations at WVU
The Free Press's alleged number of hours that Michigan was over-limit was itself greatly inflated. The paper didn't seem to understand the difference between countable and non-countable hours...I'm sure someone else can elaborate further.
activity, and the NCAA deemed it a secondary violation. That is, NOT a major violation, which UM was hit with. The salient difference between UM and UMD appears to be the Freep's sensationalism.
The NCAA may not be done with WVU. The story says that it did not decide whether or not WVU promoted an atmosphere of compliance.
"How can anyone call this the Freep jihad anymore?"
Is this even a serious question? I'd recommend reading these to re-familiarize yourself with the circumstances around the original Freep article and what a load of crap it was:
Until RR became the poster child, every program in the NCAA counted stretching as voluntary. RR spit on the sidewalk in two places instead of one. Big fucking deal...
As for the Freep's role, their reporters lied to a bunch of 18-19 year olds to get their information. They turned RR in for the same thing they knew LC had been doing for years. Rosenpuke's sole motivation was to get RR fired. He was rewarded for being a dick by eventually getting his wish and a job writing for a national publication.
Subsequently, DB hired a coach whose program at BSU got two years of probation on his watch. Does that mean you're going to bitch about Hoke, too? Give it a fucking rest.
No, I won't bitch about it until it happens here.
None of the stretching with Rich's coaches was ever alleged to happen under Lloyd. The Cara forms not being done carried back to then, but that's not a violation, just a means to track things.
that leads to violations....
Maybe if CARA forms were kept regularly before RR got here, our compliance deparment would have caught this much earlier (since RichRod would have been filling them out since the day he stepped on campus) and we could have self reported them and nothing would have happened. You act as though CARA forms have nothing to do with possible violations. You are right, CARA forms and violations don't equal cause and effect. But how much of this entire mess could have been prevented had RichRod filled out CARA forms from day 1?
It would be telling if the violations happened at WVU, were caught, and then RR continued those practices despite having been punished previously. Like Kelvin Sampson at IU.
It would also be telling if the violations did't take place at WVU but did at Michigan as it would be indicative that Rodriguez received adequate compliance while at WVU and knowingly changed his practices when he came to Michigan. But that's clearly not the case and infact the violations occurred under two different coaching staffs.
Who cares about the CARA forms? I guess if you don't care that the purpose of the compliance department is:
"to maintain control of its athletics programs through the responsible administrators, faculty, and institutional bodies; to educate coaches, staff, student-athletes and other individuals involved with the athletics program in their institutional responsibilities under the rules; to develop operating systems within the athletics department and the University that provide guidance in how to work within the rules; and to discover and report any violations of the rules that occur."
then yeah, who cares? The lack of CARA forms and general compliance/Brad Labadie ineptitude shows that Michigan's compliance department only struck out on 4 out of those 4 semi-colon separated mission charges.
And while it's true that the violations only took place after Rodriguez took over (not sure how meaningful that statement is because if I remember correctly we never investigated the seasons prior), it's also true that we never had a newspaper dramatically overexaggerate the occurrence of major violations during the pre-Rodriguez years. If after all that they only found 15 minutes of stretching and some non-coaches watching 7-on-7s and conducting film sessions, then they certainly would have found something, especially with our piss poor compliance department and football administrators at work.
Very well put.
If the fault of the violations rests squarely on the HC, then why did the only violation that specifically named said HC get tossed out?
Not "Failure to comply," sport.
That's "Failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance." Unilaterally withdrawn by the NCAA. Rodriguez did no "squirming." He attended the hearing. He defended himself. The University put its reputation on the line behind him. They won. Together. They beat the NCAA after a full, exhaustive investigation on Allegation Four.
An unspecified institutional charge of "failure to suprevise" was hastily substituted, and that is what the parties settled on in the WVU case.
You sound like Rosenberg, which is the worst thing I can say about anybody.
Rosenberg and his compadres couldn't have made a big stink out of self-reported Secondary Violations. And you couldn't, either. No, it was Major Violations that made headlines. Precisely the kinds of violations that Maryland avoided, and that Michigan got hit with, for no apparent reason than the way the story got started. It is a perfectly self-fulfilling kind of idiocy. It's a big story, because it is on the front page of one Detroit paper, and then in a thousand other places. And so it gets a big investigation, and then a big finale.
Major violations is what Rosenberg and Snyder wanted, and needed. It is why they never once went to anybody in authority, who might be able to respond in a serious and meaningful way, who might ask about what they were investigating, who might think to self-report Secondary Violations if they were thought to really exist. No; Rosenberg and Snyder quite deliberately hid their story until the last possible moment. To make sure that the best case could be made for Major Violations.
I fucking have a copy of Mark Snyder's FOIA email to Pat Sellinger asking for copies of "all U-M football-related rule violations (primary and secondary) in the past 12 months, since August of 2008..." Dated August 19, 2009 at 10:12:51. It was so that he and Rosenberg could get all preachy in their Sunday story about how Michigan hadn't any Major Violations in the past, but now, not so much. Just like you're doing now. If you're now feeling creepy, being in such close ideological proximity to Mark Snyder, it's for a reason.
I think you're creatively interpreting the findings. While it was certainly true that the harsh "promoting an atmosphere of non-compliance" was tossed, because no one thought he was actively telling/making people cheat, that's a big difference than making rules violation mistakes and not correcting them, by actions that started when he took over. He wasn't blameless, an innocent bystander, just one of many to blame. One of them with the most power... So while not an out and out, knowing cheater (which no one has argued), he was one who let HIS staff undertake actions that were against the rules. Maybe barely, but the NCAA didn't really care about barely. The original point wasn't that others shouldn't have told him to stop; they should have. (But basically telling the most powerful guy in the department to "stop" when he's the legacy of the other most powerful guy in the department, as you're trying Ronaldo with him isn't easy). But the acts that were violations were commuted by staff Rich brought in, doing practices he did at WV, piddly though they may have been.
...that we were able to hire smarter people, better versed in NCAA compliance, and more determined to defend Michigan (people like Gene Marsh, OSU '78) than you.
To figure out why MGoShoe is one of the most respected posters here, while he has negative points...
According to the NCAA, the practices that resulted in major violations and the loss of 3 football scholarships for Ball State started in the spring of 2003. Brady Hoke was hired in December 2002 - after 8 years at Michigan.
Do you think he brought those practices with him or are you going to be inconsistent?
I agree. I don't think the RR's handling of practice time rule were worth of fraction of the Freep jihad, but they were pretty clearly pushing the limit and it looks like its been going on long enough with him it was intentional or at least a habit. I loved a lot of things about RR, but opening us up for a slap on the wrist from the NCAA was disappointing even if not for anything with great moral failings.
I wasn't aware of the BSU probation. What happened?
and related to textbooks.
"The infractions involved 89 athletes in 10 sports from the spring semester of 2003 to the end of the 2004-05 school year. A separate investigation is ongoing involving former men's basketball coach Ronny Thompson, who resigned in July amid accusations that he and his assistants broke NCAA rules by attending voluntary offseason workouts in 2006 and 2007 and lying about their involvement."
"At the time, the university's bookstore had a computerized system that placed $1,000 per semester in each athlete's account, but there was no system to check the class schedules to make sure the books corresponded with the classes the athletes were taking.
Those whose schedules did not require $1,000 worth of textbooks were able to use the balance to obtain books for friends and other athletes who were not on scholarship, the NCAA found.
The university has been reimbursed for the value of the books and "all books involved were accounted for," Collins said."
I guess I don't see what the issue is with the books? Kids arent able to use unused textbook money to aid other students?
Perhaps if they were accused of selling the textbooks they got for free, I would get it, but that doesn't appear to be in the allegation.
Hoke suspended the offending football players involved before any investigation took place for what it's worth. The compliance officers didn't communicate to the athletes in like a dozen sports that the book purchase pre-paid account wasn't theirs to use to help friends. The athletes returned all the books that were purchased. Those compliance people were disciplined by the University.
It had nothing to do with Hoke.
Rodriguez was ultimately in charge of correctly reporting practice time and it looks like he bended the rules before. Athletic compliance is obviously more on a football coach then Academic. Quit making excuses for a guy that thankfully is no longer Michigan's problem.
Whenever someone says stuff like "thankfully is no longer Michigan's coach" it always seems a little cheap, even when I agree. The guy was a nice guy who worked really damn hard for our program. Yes, the buck stops with him for the violations and his management of the team was inadequate to the level of being dismissed, but its not like he did anything to screw over the team so badly we can't manage a respectful goodbye.
I was originally gonna label this as flamebait, but a comment like that is actually more like trolling. Are you serious? Surely you can't be serious.
you're a douche.
Calling section 1 for his boilerplate freep comment.
to his computer
You mean he doesn't have a bat signal like TomVH does?
Well, not really.
(Even if he could).
I've been working all day, and was very busy this afternoon because I took a little time out earlier to read the complete text of the Response by Gene Marsh and Bill King on behalf of Tressel.
But I don't need to post anything about this. Everybody's doing just fine; making all the points and all the arguments that I might have made, perfectly well on their own. My work is largely done here. It isn't even remotely about me. I wouldn't have linked to the Free Press today but only because the Board has expressed a preference against that. Which I've always honored, quite happily. I'd post any necessary Freep links if the Board felt otherwise.
The real tin-foil hat theory is the one that paints me alone as the antagonist of the Free Press. Any major anti-Freep themes that I've hit on are ones that Brian Cook has initiated, and that I've simply tried to document very carefully. I dare say I'd be on the winning side if there were a MGoPoll of "Do you think that the Free Press was the major force in unfair public treatment of Coach Rodriguez?" My thinking about all of it is nothing less than the mainstream thinking of this Board. I'm guilty only of writing about the subject in as much documentable detail as I can.
As for the idea that I cannot currently post a new thread: The reason, all should be aware, is that I was docked something like 11,800 MGoPoints by a moderator, for reasons that have never been explained to me, and which were not clear to anybody else in the thread that led to the "punishment." I didn't break any rule of the Board, and nobody said that I did.
But I am glad to know that everybody is concerned about my cyber-whereabouts. Have a nice weekend!
Because I knew you'd never post "Rich dinged again at his last school", because, well, it doesn't fit your propaganda mode.
And a number of people tried to nicely explain why you were docked, and what was annoying people. You just refused to listen.
Nobody ever told me what Board rule I was supposed to have broken. I think there was general agreement that I hadn't broken any rules.
Nobody explained nicely, and nobody explained not-nicely. Nobody explained anything. I asked about being docked, and nobody answered. Actually, I asked, after getting the form e-mail telling me not to ask. The email that assured me that life was not fair: "Most of the time [penalization] is fair. Sometimes it's not. This is life. Please don't email me about this unless you think someone is gaming the system; I know it's not perfect... "
So don't try to put it on me. Maybe moderators have bad days. Maybe moderators need to police content that is in full technical compliance with all rules, in the interest of Board tranquility. I said at the time if the humor was not welcome, they could take it down. But I was individually punished for no discernable reason. That's not my problem; that's a moderator's problem.
"Propaganda mode" ?
I'm not going to look up exactly which rule it falls under, but starting a thread with the intention of starting a shitstorm is pretty obviously against those rules. I also gave you an example, starting one thread that says, "RichRod got a raw deal" is fine, it's within the rules. Posting the same shit every other day is trolling. Your schtick has gotten to the point of trolling. Maybe it's time to start looking for a new place to post your nonsense. I've suggested starting your own blog. Tater did, I just wish he could leave his conspiracy theories over there. I think the GBMW board is right up your alley. Or maybe the the Victor Board. Some of those people are also batshit crazy, your go to crutch even posts over there under the name FunkyMoses.
starting a thread with the intention of starting a shitstorm is pretty obviously against those rules.
I intended only to poke some fun at Braylon, within a few minutes of the news breaking that he had driven his Audi off the road on Belle Isle at 3:40 am.
The "shitstorm" was 100% supplied by the Braylon FanBoyzz.
And as you already know, poking fun at Braylon was basically started by this Blog's host and proprietor. Well, maybe not. Braylon sort of started his own self-ridicule.
To see your own culpability proves my point. The rule you broke isn't a written one, it's a common sense one - don't be a douchebag. If the rest of the "board community" needs to be placated over you, maybe it's not everyone else...and it is you. You might want to consider that, if you are able. The mods are doing just fine...they're not the one's negbombed to posting hell.
Sorry about the formatting, I fail with html. What am I doing wrong with the blockquote?
Switch to plain text editor before writing the blockquote stuff.
Regardless of on the field (and in spite of his cash flow) I do not envy RR since the week before Thanksgiving 2007. This is a lot of shit he's been through.
I'd gladly take all the money he made through those 3 years along with all the shit he went through....
I would too, but at least we'd be going into it expecting the storm.
Not even saying he didn't deserve a good part of it, but that's got to get tough on a person, especially one so universally respected before then.
...and his house. That place was huge.
Still is, I imagine
Lol, maybe I should not describe things in the past tense.
especially if you're unmarried and don't have kids.
But when you factor in all the additional stress and other stuff on your family, it really may not be worth it. No doubt his kids took a lot of crap at school, etc.
From high school on, take crap if things aren't going right...but they don't get to live in houses with waterfalls.
Anyone with a lick of sense can.
Why isn't anyone in WVU blaming it on a newspaper? That is what I am getting at. Some people around here blame our probabation on a newspaper which is rediculous.
is your friend
Because no West Virginia paper accused them of doubling up the allowed practice time. Also, you are trolling
I'm not trolling by the way. It's called an opinion.
So your opinion is that we shouldn't call it the freep jihad or blame them because WV is not blaming a paper for it's violations?
Do you now see why you are trolling?
I don't see how it's trolling and honestly I don't care that you think it is. My point came across wrong in my original post. I was really trying to say that some Michigan fans honestly believe that there were no wrongdoings by Rich Rod and his staff in the whole "stretch-gate" fiasco. Obviously he and his staff broke NCAA rules at 2 schools.
And FYI, I really wanted Rich Rod to suceed as the Michigan coach but I was not after the reports came out and still am not pleased with the fact we are on probation for the first time in the history of our football program.
It's still the freep jihad because the violations came to light only because of the freep's vastly over blown story. Did we do something wrong? Yes. But not nearly what the freep alleged.
It's still the freep jihad because the violations came to light only because of the freep's vastly over blown story. Did we do something wrong? Yes. But not nearly what the freep alleged.
I would like you to point me to 1 poster.....just 1....that thinks RichRod did nothing wrong. I want you to show me 1 post where someone says everything is the freep's fault, RichRod has 0 blame in this situation. Even as strong as Section 1 feels about the situation, he has said he knows we did something wrong. I am being honest when I say not a single person thinks RichRod shoulders no blame in this situation.
This would explain why it happened here.
It explains that the NCAA rules are really hard to follow no matter where and who you are with regards to practice time. RR probably made the same mistake both places, but other coaches did too
He was either consistently doing it wrong or purposely wrong. I would tend to think he was just doing it wrong since the benefit would not be that great.
Actually, unless you think Bill Stewart was also purposefully doing illegal things, then no, it isn't that hard to determine
your post actually made me stop and feel dumb I didnt come to that conclusion myself. well put.
I agree with you, too iawolve.
I would be very surprised if others weren't doing it.
I agree the rules are hard to follow especially when you have a former NCAA compliance person working for you and she doesn't catch it.
My point wasn't that RR cheated, it was that RR carried the misperception here from WVU.
It explains that the NCAA rules are really hard to follow no matter where and who you are with regards to practice time.
I agree that many NCAA rules are difficult to uphold (particularly all the extra-benefits rules, given that you can't monitor these guys 24/7), but this one is theoretically directly in the coach's control. He decides how long they practice, and who monitors it. I don't think we have a great excuse for breaking the rule. At best, we were sloppy in our compliance. At worst, we figured we could gain a small advantage by bending the rules.
Why was WVU being investigated anyways?
I could be completely off base with this, but IIRC they wanted to look into RR's past for a pattern of incorrectly documenting practice hours. That or WVU saw the scandal at Mich and went, oh fuck we better investigate...
Again, I could be wrong, but I do believe it was related to the scandal here.
Makes me wonder if it went back even further to Don Nehlen? Not an accusation, just a question.
Wait, did Lloyd ever coach at WV? This has to be his fault somehow right?
All part of his plot to screw up Michigan Football. He's obviously been plotting for decades.
Yep. Lloyd coached the defensive backs for Don Nehlen in 1980.
He sabotaged RR from the start. I'll bet he doesn't even come out and publicly support him right now. What a slime ball.
ok, I have to ask, is this sarcasm or is it really true somehow?
Or did he take the job, then almost immediately leave it for the Michigan job (doing the same thing)?
Carr never actually coached at WVU. He was hired there, then accepted the same position at Michigan a few weeks later.
Yeah, but BITF asked facetiously and Coach Carr was on staff there.
I guess anything to do with Coach Carr is a sensitive area.
How can anyone call this the Freep jihad anymore
How is it that Michigan paid for a west coast vacation for the NCAA as well as having to mount an expedition of their own, and everyone else seems to take care of these things from the comfort of their respective offices?
Can you explain to me who else besides Michigan and WVU has had these allegations over the past few years?
And as many of the ESPN talking heads and others said during the investigation - including Herbstreit (sp) - that they believed that many if not most of the major programs out there are/were probably guilty of at least some of the "voluntary" time and GA violations -- and cited the Michigan case as a wake-up call for those programs to review their practices as well.
As noted above the WVU investigation was a direct result of the RR investigation to see if there was any proof of a flagrant disregard for the rules vs. a misunderstanding of said rules. I believe the NCAA ruling concluded the latter, particularly when it was determined that Bill Stewart followed the same procedures. However the WVU thing had been opened at that point and thus needed to be addressed.
with all these violations, surely he would not have been coaching anyway....
is a poor administrator.
Just an unsolicited internet opinion here, of course, but I think he'd be best served by swallowing some pride and seeking an offensive coordinator rather than a head coach position next year. Seems to me the surest way to rebuild his reputation.
everyone on the board seems to think he'll end up HC at Clemson or another ACC school. O'Leary, Mike Price et. al would disagree with this. If he brings the magic as an OC for 2-3 years at a BCS school, he'll be a HC at a good school in no time.
The problem is that he has already been an extremely successful head coach at a BCS school. And I am not talking about 20 years ago.....4 years ago he was one game away from going to the national championship game as a head coach. This isn't like a OC or DC taking over at a school and failing as a head coach. They would probably be better served to take another coordinator spot somewhere after getting fired. RichRod has proved he can win as a head coach. He will be a head coach again very soon.
I think he'll be forthright and sort this out the right way for WVU.
WVU football appears to be in much better hands with Holgorsen as HC. He did a hell of a job at Houston and Texas Tech.
They have done well for themselves historically by hiring offensive-minded coaches like Don Nehlen (backfield coach, QB coach/passing coordinator), Rich Rod (OC Tulane, Clemson), etc.
I just did, after posting earlier above. A few talking-points about the differences and similarities between the Michgan and WVU cases:
- WVU got hit with loss of a couple of scholarships, unlike Michigan. Reason, apparently, was that the Mountaineers' "coordinator of recruiting operations (formerly director/ coordinator of high school relations)" had somehow been involved in "attending or observing meetings involving coaching activities or athletically related events," in some quasi-coaching role. In other words, if your recruiting staff gets involved, then you lose scholarships. It didn't happen at Michigan, and there is no time specified when it may have occurred at WVU.
- WVU got hit with loss of two GA positions, reducing from 7 to 5. Identical to Michigan.
- Reduction of CARA time, by something like "23 percent." A confusing and poorly-worded line from the NCAA. I don't understand that paragraph.
- Probation. Yadda yadda.
- Some more laughable NCAA minutiae: "For example, five video graduate assistants monitored or conducted skills-development drills and attended position meetings where they worked directly with coaches. Their participation qualified them as countable coaches and the program therefore exceeded its allowable number of coaches."
- And, significantly, the blame not placed entirely on the head coaches: "The institution also acknowledged it failed to properly monitor the activities of the two former head coaches and their staffs. According to the committee, a breakdown in communication among the football staff, the student services staff and the compliance staff contributed to a lack of consistent NCAA rules education, allowing noncoaching staff to participate in coaching activities and coaching staff members to engage in impermissible out of season athletically related activities." (Emphasis added in bold.)
It is hard to imagine any more puny "Major" violations. Significantly, I saw almost no evidence that anyone at the NCAA was even slightly concerned with large, wholesale CARA-time violations at WVU. And of course that was almost entirely the focus of the Free Press story which led to the Michigan investigation which led to the WVU investigation. And as well in the follow-up stories that were making Rodriguez out to be some kind of serial violator.
Some more laughable NCAA minutiae: "For example, five video graduate assistants monitored or conducted skills-development drills and attended position meetings where they worked directly with coaches. Their participation qualified them as countable coaches and the program therefore exceeded its allowable number of coaches."
and this is why the NCAA seems to have largely outlived its usefulness to me. I find myself imitating the Miz.....Really? REALLY?
West Virginia is going to fire Rich Rodriguez AND Bill Stewart."
/BOOM. Gordon Gee'd
I'm not gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) but i have to tell you BiSB that you're my favorite poster by far and it's not even close.
That is all. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion about RR, the Freep and Jihads.
It's certainly not the biggest deal. But this does show that RR's violations at M weren't just the result of a totally benign "misunderstanding," as his apologists would have you believe. He repeatedly misunderstood.
I don't get your point. Doesn't the fact that he repeatedly misunderstood make it less damning for RR? I mean, if he understood the rules at WVU but suddenly forgot he understood at Michigan, wouldn't that be worse?
I don't think either one is defensible. This is a completely needless rules violation - it's something that the coach can directly control. Either way, by the time he arrived at Michigan he should have fully understood how to comply with this.
isn't that Michigan's fault then for not better monitoring or educating?
Knowledge of NCAA guidelines is a prerequisite for the football head coaching job. The official job posting (which can be found online, since we're a state institution) even says so. RR wasn't paid $2.5M a season to be an intern.
isn't that Michigan's fault then for not better monitoring or educating?
So you are basically saying RichRod should have corrected a problem he had at WV that he didn't know he had until 4 years after the fact so, by the time he got to Michigan, he wouldn't do the exact same thing? Yes, that is completely logical.
If we are going to stretch (pun intended) that much to put everything on RichRod's fault because we stretched for 20 minutes extra, why don't we put everything on our compliance office? I mean, if they would have been better about getting CARA forms, we could have caught this and self reported it with no penalties. RichRod did absolutely nothing wrong...it is all the compliance office's fault.
His job, as an NCAA coach, was to know the rules. If your head coach is operating in disregard of the rule book, that's a problem and can get your problem in trouble, which it did. Your compliance department should not have to babysit the head coach.
And let's be clear here: our most glaring violation was not the extended stretching time, it was that we had grad assistants monitoring summer workouts. The rules make it clear that only the strength and conditioning coach can be present. The only plausible excuse there is to plead ignorance, and that's not a winning argument in the NCAA's eyes.
I'm glad you have the ability to put this into words as I obviously failed to do.
Rich Rod deserves a show clause.
I think that's insane, for you to suggest a "show clause."
Matter of fact, it's insanity clause.
Doesn't this make sense? Since RR has held to the argument that he didn't know that he had exceeded practice hours at Michigan, I'd be more suspicious that he was lieing if evidence suggested that he adhered to the allotted time at West Virginia.
Exactly. RR didn't correctly understand the rules (or else is a serial cheater) and neither compliance department caught it.
Another day, another Rich Rod thread.
RR fucked up in two places? Well, I never...
And if Bill Stewart would have been good enough to get hired elsewhere, he would have fucked up in two places also
Coach, the rules are so complicated and foolish at this point it has become a mockery of itself. ...