Roundtree: Penalty or not?

Submitted by Swayze Howell Sheen on

Hello all,

There was a nice discussion on some other thread about whether there should have been a penalty called when Roundtree was pushed out of bounds just prior to an interception by some Alabama defender. I bring it up here as I am just curious if there are any "real" referees out there who know the rules well enough to judge the play.

Let us assume (for the sake of argument) that the ball was NOT in the air, and therefore rule out pass interference.

It is pretty clear from the rulebook that other contact IS legal, i.e., there is no NFL-like non-contact rule after five yards. Thus, a defender can often block (above the waist) a receiver who is running out there.

However, I contend that there still should have been a penalty on the play. This is from my read of what I think is a relevant rule (Rule 9, Section 3, Article 4, Part c):

"Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal."

I believe the key passage is that you can ward off or legally block a pass receiver "until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender". Roundtree was clearly even with or slightly beyond the defender.

But, I don't really know the rules very well. So, refs out there, should a penatly have been called?

(as an attempt to ward off certain comments which may arise, yes, Michigan still would have lost by a lot to a much better team regardless of this call)

 

 

Mr. Yost

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:11 PM ^

Otherwise, fuck it. Let's bring Hawthorne or Gordon off the bench, start them at safety and tell them to blast every opposing WR they see.

With that said, Bama outplayed us and were more physical. The refs were awful, but we didn't adjust. Lewan gets called for illegal hands to the face when his man his literally choking him.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:36 PM ^

You can't charge a player (which I assume is what you're talking about when you say "blast" someone) after a yard beyond the line of scrimmage.

Also, Lewan got called for illegal hands to the face because he allowed his man inside and under him, allowing the defender to gain leverage and reach. Lewan didn't intend to get his hands in the defenders face, it appeared he was trying to get a hand back on him but couldn't and hit his facemask.

Aspyr

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:13 PM ^

he shoved him out with one hand as he was turning to go up field with Roundtree and the ball wasn't thrown yet. I think it was a good physical play.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:28 PM ^

Video proof of one handed shove (not hold or tackle). Still no video proof of if the ball was in the air or not yet (though I think there was a replay in the game where you could see it from the endzone angle to the left of the screen below).

 

As an aside: I want to emphasize that the reason I'm so passionate about people getting this wrong is because I don't like when fans claim things very matter of factly and they are wrong. I have no problem with discussion, or someone saying "I think it was PI or defensive holding." That is fine, that shows a belief but not certainty. This tread is good. The OP brings up a topic, supports his claim with some evidence,etc. I explain below why I think he is wrong, and I'm ~99% sure he is (unless the ball was in there air), but that's alright. He's at least looking at things and not just spewing garbage. I want our fanbase to be smarter and better than other fanbases, so I'm sorry I get very defensive about it (I did about people bashing Borges last year as well, when they didn't understand what he was trying to do), but I just want our fanbase to be better informed.

Aspyr

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:45 PM ^

Yeah, it is hard to be certain if it was before as they aren't in the same shot but if you run a stopwatch on the throw you see that he gets rid of it at 2.1 seconds after the snap and with the other angle Roundtree is pushed out at the 35 yard line so thats about 12 yards from where he is lined up and 10 yards from the line of scrimmage. Running a stopwatch you can also see from the first angle that Roundtree is already at the 30 yard line at 1.5 seconds and already done his stutter move so it's close but I think he beats the throw. Regardless great play by Milliner and not so great by Roundtree.

archangel2k12

September 2nd, 2012 at 6:45 PM ^

The ball was in the air before he was shoved out of bounds.

After this, my brain reverted to RR trainwreck viewing mode.  I watched the whole game like I have every game since 1984...I just employ different modes to help my brain cope with the level of carnage I am watching.  I don't even freak out anymore when things like this happen.  It is totally fine for opposing teams to be given extra downs at the end of a game.  It is totally normal to let the entire team on the field to prevent a lateral fest winning touchdown.  No big deal to have extra guys on on the field against the Wolverines of Michigan.  Either way...we are a couple of years from losing a close game to this Bama team.  We will win a lot of games this year.  We just won't win against Bama, LSU, or USC.  We aren't there...YET.

Seattle Maize

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:14 PM ^

If the ball wasn't in the air - I don't think it was - then it is not a penalty. In the NFL it would have been because you can't reroute after 5 yards but in HS and College you can reroute as long as the ball is not in the air. It was a great play by Dee Milliner

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:15 PM ^

But this is a good place to bring it up as well. That section of the rule book applies to a defender attempting to get a ball carrier. The whole rule:

 

"Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players obviously attempting to block them. Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal"
 
The key here is "offensive players obviously attempting to block them". It is only saying eligible receivers to deferentiate them from linemen. This section of the rule has nothing to do with a pass play (except if the pass has already been completed).

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:28 PM ^

What Bama's corner did was legal. The rule stated in the OP applies to run plays or when the reception has already been made. For pass plays, the defender can still push the receiver.

mmp

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:43 PM ^

Without worrying about whether the ball was in the air, I think we need to look at the one of the key part of the rule above, which I see as:

 

"Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal"

 

From the video it seems that the actual push of Roundtree happened when he was occpying the same yard line as the defender or when he was trying to get around him on the outside which to seems to be when he could no longer block Milliner.  The contact before the push seems perfectly legal.  The shove out of bounds doesn't.  Thats just my opinion.  

Either way it seems like a tough call for an offical to make at game speed, but he did see enoguh to drop his hat indicating that Roundtree was out of bounds.    

 

 

 

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:46 PM ^

That part of the rule is about run plays or after a reception is made. It's their to prevent a defender from holding a guy (like a WR) who is trying to get to another player or something like that on a run play. It does not apply to a pass play.

maizenbluenc

September 2nd, 2012 at 4:45 PM ^

The rule says: "Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal"  How does this apply to a run play only or for that matter at all?

Please explain why a rule that says "eligible pass receiver" is only for a run play, when it doesn't say it is only for a run play? I agree that Rule 9, Section 3, Article 4 ends with "attempting to reach the runner", so it could be construed that the underlying parts are specifically about an instance where the play is a run. However, Part e -- "When a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone ..." is clearly in the instance of a pass play.

Thus, I believe the Parts are in reference to either a pass or run situation. By that measure and the video replay above, I agree with the OP: Roundtree was even with or past the defender when the defender shoved him out of bounds. Roy flew sideways out of bounds, not backwards.

It should have been a 10 yard penalty.

That said, if the ref didn't see when Tree was pushed, it would be very hard to make the call, and since the push was well away from the interception it would not likely to have been scrutinized in the review without a flag having been thrown. So them's the breaks.

{Edit: Link to the rules FWIW.]

 

Smash Lampjaw

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:22 PM ^

several times that the Alabama offensive line had fistfuls of defender jerseys. I suspect that as long as their hands are inside that this is simply good technique, but I don't know. It seemed to be effective.

mgowill

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:29 PM ^

 

c. Defensive pass interference is contact beyond the neutral zone by a Team B 
player whose intent to impede an eligible opponent is obvious and it could 
prevent the opponent the opportunity of receiving a catchable forward 
pass. When in question, a legal forward pass is catchable. Defensive pass 
interference occurs only after a legal forward pass is thrown. It is not 
defensive pass interference (A.R. 7-3-8-III, VII, VIII, XI and XII):
1. When, after the snap, opposing players immediately charge and establish 
contact with opponents at a point that is within one yard beyond the 
neutral zone.
2. When two or more eligible players are making a simultaneous and bona 
fide attempt to reach, catch or bat the pass. Eligible players of either 
team have equal rights to the ball (A.R. 7-3-8-IX).
3. When a Team B player legally contacts an opponent before the pass is 
thrown (A.R. 7-3-8-X).
 
Bold is mine, but the rule is pretty clear to me.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:32 PM ^

And this also shows why it should have been PI on the flag that got picked up for DG. While it would have been a very difficult catch for DG, it is questionable whether he could have caught it or not (not saying he would have, but he potentially could have). That was late in the game and didn't matter much in the end, but yeah.

Avant's Hands

September 3rd, 2012 at 10:21 AM ^

Agreed. What makes it worse is that you almost never see that flag get picked up. How many times has a ball been five yards over a receiver's head, yet they call PI? No matter the situation, I always get frustrated and I'm continuosly telling the TV that you can call holding on the play but it isn't PI if the ball is that far over his head. With Gardner's athleticism, that was far from not catchable.

Sten Carlson

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:33 PM ^

I complained about the shove thinking that the NFL rule applied to college.  I stand corrected.  What is more disappointing, however, is that Tree -- a Sr. WR -- could so easily get taken out of the play by the defender.  I guess it just goes to show how much stronger and faster Bama's team is than Michigan's. 

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:38 PM ^

But I think more than anything it was just a luckily timed shove by the 'bama guy. Roundtree was in stride and didn't have much balance or strength (I don't think he was anticipating getting hit there) and lost his balance. I think he is plenty strong enough. Speed, on the other hand...

JT4104

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:38 PM ^

the fact that a one hand shove put roundtree on the ground is bad enough. no need to justify if it was a penalty or not.

Just sad to see our WR's are weak enough to get put to the ground that easily.

Monocle Smile

September 2nd, 2012 at 4:06 PM ^

Part of the complaint is that if the roles were reversed, it would be a flag no question.

I recall at least one play in 2010 where Kovacs basically escorted a receiver out of bounds with his own momentum before the ball was thrown and got a flag before the play was even over.

kicknback1

September 2nd, 2012 at 4:32 PM ^

Go back and look at the reply again. Applying the laws of physics to this, there is no doubt in my mind that the ball is in the air when Milner pushes Roundtree out of bounds at the 35 yard line. 

Look at Milner...as soon as he pushes Roundtree he sees where the ball is going and keeps on running to the 50 yard line to track it down and catch it. 

All that the "crack" broadcast team can say is "look at how physical the 6' 1", 200 lb. Milner is. 

I bet if that was his beloved bucknuts, and and Ohio WR was pushed out by the DB, he would have been crying for a federal investigation. 

BoFan

September 2nd, 2012 at 4:56 PM ^

Of course it was.  In this highlight video from ESPN (play starts at 0.55) you can't see the throw and hit at the same time but as the camera pans you can see that the ball was already in the air when the hit occured.  You also see it was cleary a blantent shove and not incidental contact.  Also the ESPN commentators said it's definately not allowed.  

Even if the ball wasn't in the air there is no way you can just shove someone down.  That would be like allowing hockey style checking in the backfield and coaches would take advantage of that.  Clearly given the focus on reducing injuries, checking WR in full stride wouldn't be allowed. 

Im not a ref but this is pass interference and if the ball is not in the air its probably a personal foul or will be in the future.

This is one of many plays the changed the momentum for good.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8329779

MSHOT92

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:14 PM ^

it sucks to have an asswhoppin' like that handed down. They are defeding National champs for good reason and have a ton of talent, legit or not on that team. We took a small step forward last night in moving the ball at times and getting our ass handed to us. I have all the faith in the world this team 133 will not shrink from the loss but instead grow from it. One play against Roundtree doesn't make up the 20+ point gap. I've never been one to make excuses or place blame on officiating. Was it questionable? sure. But even the Iowa game last season, if we were far enough ahead and in control of the game, the call in the back of the endzone means nothing. The Nebraska game, at the end, if they call a penalty on us does it really change the outcome? NOPE...no excuses. We were beaten physically and quantifiably by a better prepared team for now. I'd love a rematch in January.

Silverware

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:15 PM ^

1. Roy needs to man up a bit and not get thrown out that easily.

2. Denard should not have thrown the ball. If the ball was in the air when Roy was pushed it was thrown into double coverage. If the ball hadn't been thrown yet then Denard just threw it to a spot filled by nothing but the other team..

Swayze Howell Sheen

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:17 PM ^

If this is legal, it seems to me like virtually every sideline route in the game would easily be defended simply by pushing the guy (legal block, with the hands) out of bounds. It just isn't logical for this to be a legal play. Further, imagine a guy cutting across the middle; why aren't the linebackers crushing these dudes regularly? Because wide receivers are so crafty at avoiding contact? Seems unlikely to me, and barely plausible.

However, logic isn't always king, and the rule book is vague enough to be confusing.

The NFL rule (no contact beyond 5 yards) is much clearer and easier to enforce; the NCAA should adopt this for any one of the reasons listed in this thread.

 

 

Yeoman

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:30 PM ^

1 . It's pretty routine to bump or push the receiver on a sideline route--it's why there's a special rule allowing the receiver to come back in bounds if he doesn't go out on his own volition.

2. You can reroute the receive; you can't crush him. Again, it's pretty routine for linebackers to try to reroute the receiver on a crossing route and sometimes you'll see one knocked down, but, again, you can't run at and charge the receiver once he's more than a yard downfield.

hennesbe

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:27 PM ^

If the ball was in the air it was a penalty.  

If I were coaching I'd start testing the rule against every receiver that leaves the line.  Blast them before the ball is thrown.  The NFL has it right but there is still to much shoving and holding without being called.  Just depends upon who you are, right  Woodson?

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4229-2011-2012-football-rule-book-2-year-publication.aspx

UofM-I-Hart

September 2nd, 2012 at 9:11 PM ^

The fact that they missed the first call on bama.. Okay MAYBE it happens, refs miss calls. But then they go and call some bull shit call like that saying its uncatchable when like you said, it was uncatchable because the fucker was interfering with him. That was just a slap in te face...



We lost the game and were the worse team, and missed calls were not the cause of our loss... But the refs made an already hard game for us A LOT harder. Just bull shit

South TX MFan

September 2nd, 2012 at 5:55 PM ^

I was at the game and had an excellent view of the play. The ball was definitely in the air at the time the defender knocked him out of bounds. Of that I am absolutely certain.