Roster Weight Watching
A spoiled Michigan fan with no hello post in over a week turns his attention to the coming fall roster in anticipation of who has grown and by how much. Of course the heights and weights of the new arrivals are always interesting given that their high school measurements vary wildy and they have had time to grow. But this year even the returning players' sizes are more speculative because for some reason they were not measured for the spring roster. The only noticeable changes from last August to the Spring were the growth spurts of Avery and Terrance Talbott to 5'11" (hopefully this was not just wishful thinking on the part of the new coaches). So it will be very interesting to see the changes that one full year has wrought in all of the players, and I am particularly looking for improvement in the following guys - with hopeful weight expectations noted.
Cam Gordon 225+; Mike Jones 225+; Avery 180+; Terrance T. 180+; Terry T.* 270+;Ken Wilkins 275+; Jibreel Black 280; Roh 270; Ash 320 or less; Barnum 295+; Lewan * 320; Schofield 310; Ricardo 225; Shaw 195; Carvin 200+.
* Terry Talbott and Lewan coming off of injuries that may have hindered their conditioning.
You're asking for a lot of weight to be added. There have been some significant weight gains with the new coaching staff, but Jones was less than 210 for the past two seasons, Lewan was 294 in the spring, and Black was only 258 in the spring. You're asking for Jones to gain 17+ pounds, Lewan to gain 26, and Black to gain 22 in the span of about four months. We'll see...
I may be wrong but I believe those spring weights were just carried over from the fall roster; either that or practically our entire team has the incredible ability to weigh exactly the same amount after 8 months of S&C.
This is correct - all of the weights on the current mgoblue roster are the same from the fall, save Greg Brown, of course.
Adding weight for the sake of adding weight is not a good thing. Lewan at 300 as a RS Soph is plenty, if he is technically sound. It appeared last year he was. I don't want Lewan at 325 if he can't move or loses athleticism. He may get there at 22, but to force it at 19 will cause more harm than good.
Black at 265 is fine for a rush DE, if he keeps his burst. Mike Jones is not a 225 player, nor does he need to be as a Weak Side LB. These weights are not light.
Too many people are blaming loses that occurred because of youth on size. Every player has a natural size that they mature to where they perform best, you cannot rush it without giving up too much. We will be better because the players are maturing, period. 20 year old muscle is stronger than 18 year old muscle. We would be better on D, no matter what staff was here as the kids matured.
Just what I saw watching the games.
over his cheeseburger milkshake when Barwis was on the way in. Maybe that would work to put on some lbs.
If Hoke gets desparate (highly unlikely, based on his work so far) he could bring back a couple of the linemen from the Andy Moeller era. These guys:
I'm sure they could help the guys put on _some_ kind of weight.
Bust out the pizzas, y'all.
I would say that a summer of hard weight training and good dieting could lead to a 10-15 pound weight gain in lineman who have a bigger frame, 5-7 pounds for skill players with smaller frames. Anyone adding this kind of weight had themselves an amazing off season in the weight room.
Lay off me...I'm starving!
There was an article earlier (last month I think) talking about how Craig Roh had put on 20 pounds and most of it was "good weight". I think 20 pounds is acheivable for many of the linemen and maybe even the skill position players. This is because the previous s&c system was built around olympic lifts, and there was unnecessary importance placed on your max for each exercise. The way Barwis trained the players trained them to be more compact and more explosive while sacrificing a little size (which is perfect for RR's spread). Wellman, on the other hand, preaches a more conventional power lifting program which should immediately have huge sizeable gains on these guys (after all, they're athletes and all of them buy into the what the coaches are saying finally). When lifting a high weight with good form 8 times becomes the focus as opposed to lifting an impossible weight with the help of spotters just to pad your stats, the skill players will undoubtedly get stronger too.
That being said, watch for the safetys and linebackers to make the most improvements in the skill positions and the o-line to make the most impovement overall (simply because campbell needs to cut and mike martin is... well... the hulk).
You think they were lifting impossible weight with lots of spotters and bad form under Barwis? You don't know much about the olympic lifts do you? Bad form = sad injured panda. The big difference from what I've heard has been diet.
Sorry I don't think I was being clear with what I was saying earlier. I am just speaking from what one of my friends who's on the team was telling me. Not that they were lifting impossible weight with lots of spotters and bad form under Barwis, but that they would do mostly olympic lifts and when it came time to check your max, they would be doing a lot more weight than they could legitimately handle. For example, a guy could only squat 350 legitimately but on max day they would be doing 400. Barwis didn't get his reputation for no reason, though! He certainly knew what he was talking about but my friend says that not doing such staple exercises as bench press, for example, on a consistent basis was having a compacting effect on the players.
I have been weight lifting for 3 years so I'm quite aware that bad form will ruin you permanently don't worry!
People get so enamored with weight around here especially since RR arrived. While we don't want 250lb interior lineman the rest of the positions weight has next to zero effect.
Does Lewan really need to add weight? He was kicking A. Claybourns ass last year. Getting stronger, more agile and refining his technique is much more important.
I love when these arguments come up because we at Michigan should no more than anyone that size and weight are overrated. Can I please present players like J. Hall who probably played DE at 230lbs. Mike Hart, Jamie Morris, Anthony Carter, Mark Messner, Dhani Jones, Ian Gold etc. I know football has changed some but look at the listed weights of the 97 defense.
We need good football players not heavy ones.
Point taken but the OP mentions two linebackers at a hopeful weight of 225, two corners reaching for 180, three defensive linemen 270 - 280, and a "tight end" trying to reach 225. None of these weights are big for their positions, and in fact most are still marginal.
James Hall was 250+ pounds for his final three seasons.
I agree that sometimes weight is overrated, but your argument ignores the fact that many of those players are exceptions. Between Morris and Mike Hart, there was a string of "big" guys like Leroy Hoard, Tyrone Wheatley, Ricky Powers, Anthony Thomas, and Chris Perry. Anthony Carter was great, but Braylon Edwards, Marquis Walker, David Terrell, Derrick Alexander, etc. were all 6'2"+ and 210+ pounds, if I remember correctly. David Harris was 245 lbs.
I understand the desire for good football players over size (I would take Mike Martin over Gabe Watson any day), but there's a reason that there are stereotypical weight expectations for football players. If all other things are equal (speed, vision, football intelligence, work ethic, etc.), you always take the bigger player.
I'm not sure what he was listed at but no way James Hall was over 250lbs. I understand that you need guys that are big enough to compete, but I just don't think it matters much after the interior line. The pros are a different story but in college I really think it is about being a player.
If guys are equal I agree you want the bigger player, but the reality of our defense right now is we need the best player on the field regardless of size. If Mike Jones is 210lbs but he can read his keys, anticipates well and makes his tackles I'll take him over anyone on the roster listed at 230lbs.
For a LB when does that 20lbs really make a difference? This is a serious question I tend to think about more than I should. Pass defense? No.... Tackling? I don't think it does..... but maybe a little. In terms of taking on blocks you are still being out weighed by 70-100lbs so I don't see the extra 20lbs helping that much.
Personally I don't care what my lb's weigh as long as they can run, tackle and know where they are going. When I watch the SEC they seem to agree with me.
I don't think the SEC argument is a good one. Alabama's LBs are huge. Florida's are big-ish. Arkansas lists a guy at 268 or something as a starter.
Alabama runs a 3-4, so their linebackers are naturally going to be larger. I think Arkansas runs a 3-4, too, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
A 3-4 inside linebacker is not the same thing as a 4-3 inside linebacker.
Yeah, I understand all that and I agree. I'm just trying to counter the "SEC has small fast guys that can ball" argument for why weight is not important.
Yeah, I was trying to add to your point, not counter it...but I guess it came out a little funny.
Florida's past 4-3 defenses are a good match to what we will likely run given Mattison's influence. At LB they typically run a 235 guy in the middle and 225 to 230 guys on the outside. Their DEs typically are under 250. They'll throw in a 300 NT and 280 DT. Their CBs are usually around 180 and their safeties in the 190-200 range.
Check the weights of some of the better starting linebackers in the SEC. The problem with tweeners like Mike Jones and Brandin Hawthorne are that they're built like safeties but move like linebackers. They don't really have positions right now.
No offense, but I'm going to trust Michigan's official roster over your memory from a dozen years ago. Hall was over 250.
Twenty pounds can make a big difference in a) taking on blocks and b) tackling. A 220 lb. linebacker can stone a 240 lb. fullback if the proper technique is used by the defensive player and he's aggressive, but assuming you're 180 lbs., I bet you don't want to get in a fight with a 200-pounder. If you're 230, I bet you're not too keen on taking on a 250-pounder. When you're talking about a 220 lb. linebacker against a 240 lb. fullback (or, in Wisconsin's case, the tailback), that's approximately 10% of his body weight that he has to account for. That might be a half a yard every time those two people meet, the difference between a 4th down or a 1st down, a touchdown or a goal line stand.
Like I said, good football players are more important than size alone, but size isn't insignificant.
I don't think anyone would argue that a bad player at 340 is better than a good player at 300, but when you have the same guy, and assuming his athleticism isn't affected (noticeably), then weight is usually a good thing.
What is better? Craig Roh at 251 or Craig Roh at 270? Mike Martin at 285 or Mike Martin at 305? Taylor Lewan at 292 or Taylor Lewan at 315? How about a linebacker (Gordon or Jones) at 208 or 225?
The answer to these is pretty clear, which was the point of the OP.
James Hall was only 6'2". Craig Roh is 6'5". 250 lbs is too small for a WDE of Roh's height. He needs to gain weight. Taylor Lewan's weight was a misprint. He played at 280 lbs last season, which again is too small. He needs to get bigger as well. Our offensive and defensive lines were pushed around at times last year, especially later on in the season. Hoke, Mattison, Funk & Wellman know what they're doing.
Lewan and Schofield are both over 300 now, FWIW.
Wow, thats good news Magnus if that is true. There was no way that Lewan was the 297 or whatever he was listed at last season. He should be a legit 300-310 with his height to be maximally effective.
It comes from a reliable source.
Regardless, he was good last year, so even if he returned at the exact same size, we would be just fine at LT.
I believe Roh said recently that he is getting close to 270
Can I please present players like J. Hall who probably played DE at 230lbs.
James Hall was neither a DE (he played rush linebacker) nor 230. Try 260.
With the sole exception of ILB (where Eric Mayes and Ian Gold were undersized, and Dhani Jones just a hair so), our 1997 defense was very big. Steele, Renes, Copenhaver, Sword . . . they were man-sized. Marcus Ray was one of the biggest SS we've had. Even both cornerbacks (Woodson and Weathers) were 6'1" and close to 200.
But until we get those good football players you're talking about, it would help to have the current ones add some size and strength. Added size and strength can sometimes make up for a lack of talent in some facets of the game, and right now our talent level is mediocre overall.
I think the Courtney Avery hopes are legitimate. I used to work in South Quad cafeteria last winter semester and I would see him frequently. He was definitely taller than me (shade under 5'9), but I can't say by how much. The impressive part was that he was looking ripped. Not just cut, but bulky and larger; i.e. not a twig. Cullen Christian and Greg Brown were there frequently also, and you could tell the difference between Avery and both the other two guys (one because he was a freshman and the other seemed to have some conditioning/work ethic issues).
The other weight gains may be a little unrealistic, but didn't Omameh gain 35ish pounds over the course of two years in RR's weight training program? Obviously it is easier to put on good amounts of weight coming out of high school, but couldn't a Mike Jones plausibly go from 208 to 220? Same with Gordon.
Remember from above that those weights are from August 2010 - a full year from the coming roster so 208 to 225 is probably more like 215 to 225. Interesting to see where they wind up because they need at least 220 to be effective at linebacker.
I would be great if Lewan and Schofield's weight was as reported above, but it is safe to say they are both in the 300-305 range...