Too bad all four of those USC quarterbacks combined are still 3 rings behind Tom Brady
i refuse to even consider this a possibility
Too bad all four of those USC quarterbacks combined are still 3 rings behind Tom Brady
5 if you also count AFC / NFC Championships.
Wouldn't it be 8 rings if you also count AFC/NFC Championships?
technically he would be +7(8-1), because Matt Cassel has an AFC Championship ring as well... thanks to Tom Brady!
Edit: +6(8-2) Leinart also has a NFC Championship ring with the Cardinals... as a backup. So if you want to be relevant and count only rings as a starter(which makes the most sense) then he is up 8-0. But if you are basing it on rings they won, then its 8-2
I agree with his opinion. Though the string of Michigan QB's going to the NFL is impressive, the Rich Rod fiasco disrupted it. I expect that Michigan will re-earn the title of QB U under Hoke
Exactly this. Maybe four years ago this would be a "WTF HOW?" article, but right now that's not the case. I do think that we will be back on top in the near future though.
While I agree, I don't think this as strong of a statement as you make it. Ryan Mallett left, but after him there really is no other argument. Denard and Tate were there in year two. Tate canned, but Denard stayed and has now blossomed into one of the best quarterbacks in the country (although not your traditional NFL guy). He may not be a future star quarterback in the NFL, but he will get his shot, especially in today's move towards more mobile quarterbacks. And really, Denard was the first shot after Mallett to reach the NFL anyway. Sheridan and Threet were never going to be those guys.
The knock is that we have essentially had two three/four year starters in the last 8 years. It's not ideal to have a guy start for three or four years. And honestly, Tate possibly could have had his shot if it wasn't for all of the off-the-field issues. I don't really blame Rich Rod for that.
Sorry to interfere with your RR-bashing, but Brady is the only really successful Carr QB in the NFL, and he was gone in 2000. Neither Navarre, Henne, nor Griese has been more than a career backup or miscast starter in the NFL. So, there really wasn't much of a pattern interrupt here.
Besides, California QB's have the benefits of all of the "guru" schools in the offseason, and USC pretty much buys whoever they want. Then, they spend more money and surround them with NFL-caliber talent at every position.
But it's really cute that someone was so motivated to gratuitously slag RR that he was able to find an excuse to do so in an otherwise positive thread.
I am guessing that you hold a lot of grudges.
Regardless of whether you want to turn this into a Carr vs. Rodriguez thing, you're missing the point. The point is that if you played quarterback under Carr, you were essentially guaranteed a cup of coffee - at the least - in the NFL. Collins, Dreisbach, Griese, Brady, Navarre, Henson, Henne, even Mallett.
The quarterbacks under Rodriguez were Sheridan (now coaching at WKU), Threet (out of football), Forcier (seemingly out of football), and Denard Robinson (current Michigan quarterback, might get a chance to play QB in the NFL, might have to switch positions).
The Rodriguez fiasco DID stall the Michigan-QB-to-NFL streak. Fact.
You forgot David Cone. He was a solid 3/3 54yrds against Deleware St(2009), and 1/1 21yrds against Minnesota(2007). Played in 2 other career games as well.
I was only counting guys who started games...but yeah, Cone was excellent.
Right, but Cassel was included in USC's list even though he was a career backup, so I figured I'd throw in Cone since he had some college experience :P
was not a back-up. He started for 4 years for Denver and was an All-Pro in 2000. Then started for Miami, Tampa, Chicago, and Tampa again. He started and or played in 92 games. Granted, he was never a stud stand-out except for 2000 and 2004 in Tampa Bay, but out of all those before him that we're talking about, he'd be ranked #3 in starts behind Brady and Harbaugh. I think Grbac could have had better totals but he quit too soon. Collins lost his job after what 2-3 seasons, and the others, although started a few games, don't compare.
I don't think he's given enough credit. He was a pretty good quarterback for the skills he was blessed with.
You can't make a case for Michigan as QB U right now. Brady is awesome, and a few ohter Michigan QB's have been starters recently, but they're not franchise guys. Henne still has a chance, I think.
Sadly, right now i'm not sure Michigan is anything U when it comes to NFL talent. Could be LT U when Taylor Lewan joins Jake Long as a fellow #1 pick.
Jake Long, David Baas, Steve Hutchinson, Jonathon Goodwin, Jeff Backus, and Steve Schilling off the top of my head.
Agreed. Nobody else has the top-level talent (Long, Hutchinson, Baas) and the depth that Michigan has in the NFL right now.
A dry spell (QB) was mentioned above, but many people overlook the O-line dry spell of the last several years. Basically, you have Baas and Long. (Waiting to see on Molk, obviously ...) Compare that to the years around the turn of the century. Oddly, two of RichRod's recruits (Lewan, maybe Schofield) could herald an upturn.
Details (yes, just draft positions, first three rounds), courtesy of CBS Sportsline:
2008: Jake Long (1)
2005: David Baas (2)
2001: Steve Hutchinson (1), Jeff Backus (1), Maurice Williams (2)
1999: Jon Jansen (2)
1997: Rod Payne (3)
1995: Trezelle Jenkins (1)
1993: Steve Everitt (1), Joe Cocozzo (3)
1992: Greg Skrepanak (2)
tl;dr version: Just two high NFL picks from that area since 2001, compared to nine in the prior ten-year period. Michigan's O-line reputation is based more on history than recent production.
IMO of o-line recruiting in the final Carr years for sure. Thanks for positing. Combine poor Carr o-line recruiting with poor RR o-line recruiting (#'s) and it's obvious why we were in such bad shape on '08, and this year with depth.
I don't know if it's a complete indictment of Carr's recruiting. He was recruiting a different type of player than Rodriguez wanted. For example, that list doesn't include Schilling, who might have developed differently under Carr. It also doesn't include Justin Boren, who transferred. It also doesn't include David Molk, who won the Rimington Award. You also don't know how guys like Ortmann, Moosman, etc. would have developed if they weren't in a spread system and asked to shed weight in exchange for speed.
While I won't argue that early round draft picks diminished in the 2000's, there's more to it than "Carr recruited poorly."
This a question for no one in particular, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on it if you have any.
Looking over Rivals/Scout rankings for the '02 to '08 classes, it's not easy to see any obvious dry spots. Lots of those guys were 4-star types.
Andy Moeller got a lot of heat as a position coach. I've no idea whether that was fair, but I wonder if mediocre player development in those years (as well as the RichRod years, at least as far as the pro-style offense was concerned) had anything to do with the low number of high draft picks.
Well, I don't think Carr forgot how to evaluate and recruit offensive linemen. So I feel like the OL coach might have had a big part of any lack of development.
Matt Leinart is an NFLquarterback?
Very very valid question. Who the hell does he play for these days?
I think he's currently a free agent, but he was the backup in Houston. He got a start after Schaub got went down and ended up breaking his collabone during his 1st start. That's why TJ Yates was the Texan's starter late in the season and in the playoffs.
I hear he may be getting traded to the Jets to help Mark Sanchez block for Tim Tebow.
Braylon, Manningham, Breaston, Avant, Arrington and Hemmingway next year are a pretty solid group to contend for WR U.
The best USC quarterback in NFL history is probably... Matt Cassel?! lolz
Peete: 76-92 TD-INT, 1,021 Yards/Year, 73.3 QBR
Cassel: 76-45 TD-INT, 1,671 Yards/year, 82.5 QBR
Cassel is better, sorry
Tom Brady. Enough said.
Yeah, Sanchez, Cassell, Leinert and Palmer all have super bowl rings.
WAIT A MINUTE....
still irritates me whenever this topic comes up.
With that said, U of M is not QB U. We used to be RB U, but no more.
I would say WR U more than RB U. We sent a lot of RBs to the NFL but none of them were really stars at the next level the way they were in college. I guess it depends on what your criteria are for being called __U, big time success or just getting there and being somewhat productive. The WRs haven't really been stars either for the most part but I'd say they've been more productive as a group than the RBs.
I'd be down with being (insert any position besides kicker or snapper here) U.
that I may be a little older than you. In the 1980s, save Anthony Carter, U of M didn't really produce send much in terms of WRs to the NFL. Except for Harbaugh, not much for QBs either.
I always thought of QB U as a Carr thing, with people sometimes throwing Harbaugh out there in addition, because he was so easy to tack on.
I'd be interested to see a breakdown of some different positions under Bo, Moeller and Carr and how they fared in the NFL.
Michigan running backs haven't fared well in the NFL.
Hell, Big Ten running backs in general haven't fared well in the NFL. They have largely been busts or flash in the pan types.
Maybe we aren't QB-U but up until the RRod era, every QB that started a game for Michigan, since Grbac, has started at least one game in the NFL. That's impressive to me.
Did not start any games in the NFL to my knowledge. I don't even think Henson made it when he tried out for the Cowboys? But from Harbaugh to Brady, the starting QB for Michigan did start some amount of games in the NFL. Don't blame Rodriguez for the drought, blame the caretaker years of the Carr era. Also it's not like Bo was putting QB's into the NFL, that was really Moeller's doing. Bo can claim Harbaugh maybe, but Moeller's was the OC from 1987 until 1990 when he was the head coach. Moeller's last full recruiting class graduated in 1997-98 depending on how you slice it. So Carr can claim Henne, and maybe Tom Brady, but Moeller was the NFL machine.
Started on Thanksgiving game for Dallas.
Don't recall "blaming" Rodriguez or anybody else. I was just stating a fact.
Cassel is the only one I have much respect for in that group. The other three have all underachieved big time, Leinert and Sanchez care more about the lifestyle than winning, and Palmer is pretty whiny (though I give him a little leeway since he played for the Bengals with Ochocinco). Not really that surprising given the way Pete Carroll was all about having the Hollywood team.
amusing (July, 2008):
I cannot stand the Buckeyes. It's amazing to hear what those guys think about that university and what they think about that football program and Tressel and all the crap I gotta put up with being back there.
I just can't wait for two years from now when SC comes to the 'Shoe and hopefully we'll have a home game that weekend, and I can go up there and watch us pound on them in their own turf.
I'm really getting sick of it, and I just can't wait for this game to get here so they can come out to the Coliseum and experience LA and get an old-fashioned Pac-10 butt-whoopin' and go back to the Big Ten.
35-3, 18-15...Still hate USC, though...
USC is not producing any stars either. Sanchez, Cassell, Leinert and Palmer aren't exactly dominating the league.
As a long time Michigan fan, I still am amazed that we are in a position to be part of this discussion.
I remember a Monday Night Football game in the '80's where for whataver reason this statement was made by one of the announcers . . . "There have been over 10,000 touchdown passes thrown in the NFL, and not one of them has ever been thrown by a Quarterback from Michigan."
We've come a long way, USC hype be damned.
And I forget when Harbaugh got his first playing time, but he was in the NFL in 1988. Bo never was big on passing, and even Rick Leach took his arm to baseball. I think Anthony Carter is the reason that Bo allowed passing at all, so I'm more in favor of Michigan being WR and OL University more than any other position. Wheatley and Thomas are the only RB's that I would consider as having significant careers. Michigan always had successful RBs because the OL was always solid. Jamie Morris had the rushing title before Thomas, then Hart. All of them saw time as freshman, and then were the every down back from sophomore year onward. There accumulation of yards mostly came from huge amounts of run plays, with Hart enjoying an increase in games per year. Out of those three, only Thomas was an NFL back who started. Not saying They were bad at Michigan, just not really solid NFL talent.
He didn't even start a game as the QB at USC...
I think that is what makes him mentionable. He is still playing in the NFL correct?
No, but just because he didn't start for USC doesn't mean he wasn't developed there. It's not like he was picked up by the Patriots because he was terrible, just to transform him into a starter.
But as Tight end....
I think its probably a "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing. But if you think about it in the long run. Brady, Harbaugh, Collins, Leach, Grbac. I still think Henne has a shot to be a solid NFL QB. Not to mention the countless back up QBs Michigan had floating around the league at various times. But past 50 years you would be hard pressed to name many schools who have put more QB's in the league. Not to mention we have arguebly the best NFL QB all time in Brady. If Henne pans out I think Michigan might start to get some more credit in the QB department. And I still think he will. Dude has a cannon for an arm.
I agree that you have to look at the long view. The criteria should be in the history of the NFL, not just current QBs. That being said Notre Dame, Purdue and Alabama should all be in the conversation.
Who from Alabama would put them in the conversation? Joe Namath is one of the most overrated quarterbacks in NFL history, and then there's Kenny Stabler. And...that's about it. If you include Alabama, you have to probably include 20 other schools, too.
Bart Starr. I don't necessarily disagree with you. Just throwing some teams out there that I thought of off the top of my head. Definitely don't have the knowledge of NFL history to give a satisfactory answer to the question. I do think, though, that you have to take the entire history of the NFL into account and not just the past 10-20 years.
There's not a QB from USC in the league that any team would want as their starter. Before the injury, Henne was playing at the same level as Cassel and Sanchez this season. Actually, Henne had a better QB rating than both of them.
I don't know about that. Carson Palmer played decently at times last season. Coming off a long layoff and with a short time to prepare, I don't think he did too badly. And Matt Cassel has had a couple very good seasons in about 4 years as a starter.
I don't think either one is a superstar, but SOME teams would probably prefer to have Palmer or Cassel over what they currently have.
Two current NFL Hall of Famers in Len Dawson and Bob Griese and one future one in Drew Brees, not to mention other NFL QBs like Cecil Isbell, Dale Samuels, Bob DeMoss, Mike Phipps, Gary Danielson, Mark Hermann, Scott Campbell, Jim Everett, Eric Hunter, Billy Dicken, and Kyle Orton. Just saw a fun stat on Wikipedia that Purdue QBs have thrown more NFL TDs than QBs from any other school (probably helped a lot by Drew Brees). Probably Purdue football's one claim to fame.
If those four Trojans are the best any school has contributed to the NFL, no school is doing that well. I wouldn't want any of those guys starting for my team. Brady, Manning, Rogers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Manning (other Manning), Stafford, Vick, Newton...they all went to different schools, and those are pretty much the only starters I'd want on my NFL team.
There is no QBU right now, because it's really hard to crank out good QB talent.
But let's be honest: Michigan is not anything U right now. Rich Rod washed us clean of NFL picks, and it's going to take a couple of years to re-establish the NFL pipeline. Honestly? I think our best chances are O-Line, D-Line, and LBU.
As mentioned above in this thread, you would be hard pressed to find any school that comes close to Michigan in producing offensive linemen. Producting has fallen off a little recently, but Schilling and Molk might keep it going a little bit. Then you have the next generation of kids in the form of Taylor Lewan...and I've even heard speculation out of practice that Schofield looks like an early round pick at right tackle.
Definitely. The sheer number of elite offensive linemen that come out of UM amazes me.
But we don't have the Fucking Catalina Wine Mixer :( we lose :(
I remember a time when we had 4 starting QB's on NFL rosters. I believe it went Grbac, Dreisbach (sp?), Collins and Griese all starting for their respective teams. Can't imagine many schools with that kinda of overlap and then cam Brady - the pinnacle of the position.
Of that group, Palmer seems to be the only guy who at one point was a top-flight QB in the league, and even then only for a couple of years before injuries caught up to him. Sanchez has been mediocre in NY, Leinert was a major disappointment, and Cassell didn't even play much at USC.
Perhaps, one should distinguish between schools that recruit the best talent or produce it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that most of these USC QBs were ranked among the top few recruits in the country, it is debatable how much USC actually contributed to their further development. By contrast, UM QBs like Brady and Griese were not nearly as highly ranked as recruits (Griese, I believe, was a walk-on). So, UM can make a much better case for having contributed to their later success.
Moreover, USC has been found by the NCAA to have cheated during the era that involved many of the QBs mentioned. The benefits given to Reggie Bush lead one inevitably to question how often similar benefits may have been given to other players, including their elite QBs. At the very least, they question how USC’s ill-gotten success and false reputation may have facilitated their QB recruiting. So, should we really honor USC as QB U—or respect any other successes—during this era?