Should suspend him for the rest of the season. Intent to injure needs to be severely punished.
Rittenberg on Gholston
oh please. I doubt his mindset was putting Denard on a stretcher. Heat of the moment, overaggressive. One game suspension would be adequate. Take off the homerglasses for one second.
Punching Lewan was a 'heat of the moment' action. Had he just dove on to Denard late, that would be 'heat of the moment', but then grabbing his facemask and ripping his head to the side then laying like nothing happened, is a deliberate action with an intent to injure.
I just think the Wolverines and the Spartans have different perception of this in-state rivalry...
Likely reasons 1. Both players, Most current Michigan players(RR players) grew up not being a Michigan fan and had no idea of our traditions. Unlike the Spartan players, atleast they did not like Michigan.
2. Two QBs, Kirk Cousin is a leader no doubt, but DRob still seem like a stats leader instead of a vocal leader to this Michigan team.
3. Two HCs, Hoke is still trying to get this team back on track of what a Michigan team is all about, but yet Dantonio really made a statement to his team and this state.
I would like to nominate this for worst post ever on this site.
and please can that post be nominated?
Number 1 and 2 is where I take some issue.
Many key players are from Michigan and Ohio. Demens, Thomas Gordon, Cam Gordon, Devin Gardner, Rocko Khoury, Ryan Van Bergan, Will Campbell and Mike Martin are just a few from Michigan. Patrick Omameh is a Michigan fan from Columbus, Kovacs grew up a Michigan fan in Ohio, same for Koger who is from Toledo. Yes, there are a number of kids from out of the region but there are plenty from Michigan and Ohio who know Michigan and what Michigan is about and that should rub off.
I think two coaching changes in 4 years has a significant effect compounded by the switch from pro to spread and back to pro styles. MSU in my opinion is usually more amped up for the game anyways. It's what they live for. Even in some of their less that stellar years a win over Michigan saved their season regardless of what else happened. If they went 1-11 and the 1 was a win over Michigan it isn't a "lost" year it's a "good" year. Michigan has higher goals and standards and arguably the biggest rivalry game in all of college football with Ohio State where MSU worries about beating Michigan and the rest is cake.
I can't say what kind of leader Denard is because I'm not in the locker room. From what I have read however the players seem to think he is fine so I have to go on that. There are a few articles that I have seen that says he has leadership skills but I don't think you need to be vocal to be a leader. A guy like Steve Yzerman led (lead) by example and I think Denard does that.
I don't know -- look at the way he was going after Lewan's arm and knee and the comments from that other kid about hurting Russell Wilson. I absolutely think he was trying to injure.
What did he do to Lewan's arm and knees? I've only seen the punch, facemask and late Denard tossings.
judo chop followed by jujitsu submission move, successfully injuring Lewan
Has there been video of this that I just missed?
down with an armbar. Haven't seen the knee incident.
and the Sparties shrug it off as just football, but when you look at it, those were girly acts, all done when a player was on the ground or othewise defensless. They are nothing but girls (no offense to girls).
(no offense to idiots)
Im sure this Ohio fan didn't intend to jack off in front of a bunch of kids in the library . Heat of the moment, just overagressive. One day without library internet privileges should suffice
dont know how to make this a video.http://youtu.be/IYtUTu9H7dE
If it were just an armbar, or just the twisting of the facemask, or just the punch, I could probably be convinced that it was heat of the moment, however that wasn't the case. It was all three incidents, which is a trend. This kid was out to injure someone, and was going to continue doing it until someone stopped him.
Do not get me wrong I am not saying his actions should not be punished, because they should. All I am saying is it is really hard to say suspend him for a year for it. Whether he should be suspended for x number of games is something I could care less about, but taking a season away from him? Really? Punishment should fit the crime and in this particular instance I just do not see a year.
regarding the Tropp/Conboy attack on Steve Kampfer? "One game suspension would be adequate" there too? That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the helmet twist on Denard.
As far as premeditation, violence, and the rarity of the occurences. One game in this case seems sufficient.
but to reach out after the late hit, and intentionally twist a player's head with his facemask ... Gholston should have been ejected right then, and if the Big Ten doesn't suspend him for a significant portion of the rest of the season ... well they're sending the wrong message.
I can understand the judo chop (Lewan had his jersey in hold, he was aggressively trying to get free). I can even understand the punch (Lewan mashed his face into the turf / heat of the moment).
Attempting to injure someone's neck is not heat of the moment, it is not accidental, it is intent to injure someone, and injure them badly.
Still intent to significanlty injure
Assume for the moment that you're right, and that they were "heat of the moment" incidents. Why would you not suspend him for a significant amount of time anyway? Heat-of-the-moment isn't a defense to crimes (your honor, you can't send me to jail for hitting him with that bottle; I was REALLY pissed at the victim at the time), nor in civil cases.
Besides, he's going to be exposed to intense situations in future games, so they need to do something to dissuade him from reacting that way in the future.
Well, technically "heat of the moment" isn't a defense, but it is a mitigator. It can be the difference between murder and manslaughter, for example. That said, if Gholston were to charged with assault, I would have nooo problem with it.
Whether in incident is in the heat of the moment, or rather, within the course of the game, makes a huge difference in punishment.
Additionally, you don't think missing the Wisconsin game (MSU's biggest game of the year) will dissuade him from engaging in similar behavior in the future?
the worst by far is what he did with the arm bar to Lewan. that was rightout of the WWE only it was real and he was trying to break his arm.
that was likely coached to him at some level.
"60 minutes of unnecessary roughness"....it's not hard to guess at what level.
At first, I thought you were being sensational with the punishment, but then I compared what happened here to what Legarrette Blount did, and I'd say that the crime and punishment are on par with that. I was in favor of a game, maybe two, but seven seemed a bit much. I'd say that the repeated offenses are on par with Blount's inability to back down after the initial punch. I mean, it's not like this is Gholson's senior year like Blount, so suspending him for the rest of the year isn't as damaging in this case.
Everyone saw the game. Everyone knows that they played dirty. It doesn't mean we have to hold onto for all of eternity. If we lost a close game because they injured Denard on a dirty play, then there would be something to bitch about for a while. It was a 2 TD loss in a game where those penalties only benefited us. It does nothing to continue complaining about it except to give them something to laugh about. The same goes for all of the "Start Gardner" threads (He was 3/7, not better than Denard, and missed wide open receivers). Threads like this just make this place intollerable to come to because this is supposed to be a place for rational discussion, but instead it's mlive or rcmb after a loss and it causes me to lose faith that our fanbase is actually an better than any other fanbase.Everyone saw the game. Everyone knows that they played dirty. It doesn't mean we have to hold onto for all of eternity. If we lost a close game because they injured Denard on a dirty play, then there would be something to bitch about for a while. It was a 2 TD loss in a game where those penalties only benefited us. It does nothing to continue complaining about it except to give them something to laugh about. The same goes for all of the "Start Gardner" threads (He was 3/7, not better than Denard, and missed wide open receivers). Threads like this just make this place intollerable to come to because this is supposed to be a place for rational discussion, but instead it's mlive or rcmb after a loss and it causes me to lose faith that our fanbase is actually an better than any other fanbase.
That last sentence is quite telling, isnt it?
2 games minimum. The helmet twist was so intentional and so severe, I could see it getting more. But really, I agree with the majority that it was two separate offenses each with a minimum 1 game suspension.
The neck twist was bad enough, but if you watch the play closely he comes flying in and thrusts his right knee into Denards ribs.
I hate to keep making hockey comparisons, but shouldn't football (as another contact sport) have an equivalent to a match penalty? That was an obvious intent to injure and should be more than fifteen yards and a game (with no ejection from the first).
The punch was just unsportsmanlike. They should suspend him for that, but I only say that because of the Mouton suspension. If they had assessed fifteen yards and an ejection that would have been more than fair.
Edit: I'll get my other hockey comparison out here too. You should not be able to injure someone on a personal foul and not be ejected. Obviously that's discretionary, but Denard didn't come back once after the Rush hit. That fifteen yards was more than worth it for their defense, and that shouldn't be the case.
I just talked to a friend of mine, who is an MSU alum, who is totally disgusted with the state of the program, and believes that Gholston's actions, and Rush's too, are why MSU will never become an elite national program. But he believes this has been going on for while, even before Dantonio's watch. He was shocked when I read Narduzzi's "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness" quote.
too. Michigan State alum, thinks that took the rivalry to a place it should not be. Was glad Michigan did not retaliate because he thought it could turn into something really ugly. I agree.
Their reputation for dirty play has been around awhile - going back to the days of Perles.
Wouldn't be surprised if the Big Ten didn't do anything about it. They'll want MSU to have the best fighting chance possible to not get blown out so the conference doesn't look so top heavy. It looks bad if Wisconsin is far and away the best team and can't crack the top 5.
MSU is an interesting spot if they do not suspend him. 1. If the Big Ten also does not suspened him, then MSU would think they are justified. 2. If he is suspended, then they have egg on their face, and in my mind, should have to explain why they did not personally suspend him.
I am curious to see the timetable on their decision.
Two games IMO. One game for trying to break Taylor Lewan's arm and a second game for trying to break Denard Robinson's neck.
I usually try to stay away from calling out coaches but Mark Dantonio is a scumbag. It is patently clear that he wants his players to do sh*t like this on the field, especially against Michigan. He is a carbon copy of his mentor (and tragic hero) St. Jim Tressel: a blatant hypocrite who covers himself in a facade of righteousness (giving genuine religious people a bad rep) while exhibiting a win-at-all costs mentality and a complete disregard for the proper spirit of amateur athletics.
"Robert's conduct was totally unacceptable and has no place in collegiate athletics."--Jim Tressel commenting on Reynolds-Sorgi
"I think it was a cleanly played football game. A hard-hitting football game."--Dantonio in the aftermath of Gholston's neck twist
For all his many faults and his obvious hypocrisy, Jim Tressel never (as far as I'm aware) sent his players onto the field with instructions to injure opponents or commit repeated personal fouls in the knowledge that the officials couldn't possibly flag every single play. He may have done damage to the integrity of the game as a fair, amateur competition, but he didn't do so in a way that threatened the safety of the players.
I'll take Tressel over Dantonio/Narduzzi any day of the week.
I would have spent more time discussing the Dantonio v. Tressel stuff but my post was already getting too long.
I was not suggesting that Tressel approved of dirty play (although I still think OSU was trying to injure McGahee in the BCS title game vs. Miami) but that Tressel was a guy who portrayed himself as a beacon of morality when, in fact, he was a win-at-all-costs weasel. His particular sin was not dirty play on the field but, rather, dirty play OFF the field.
That is because Tressel actually respected the rivalry and respected Michigan. He disliked us, but respected us. Dantonio does not. Not only does Dantonio not respect Michigan, he doesn't respect college football.
You and Logan and Big Blue all have it exactly right. Tressel had more class in one of his old sweater vests than Dantonio will ever have. It gets clearer all the time. Narduzzi is like Santino.
Rittenberg tells it like it is
if Michigan State did anything "more" on Gholston. Dantonio did take Gholston out for a couple plays after one of those personal fouls. That's the pattern. Isn't it after all just a scaled down version of Rucker? In fact, I'm annoyed over the meme out there that Dantonio is a stand up guy. Just because you don't smile doesn't make you an old school coach. Rittenberg isn't as bad as Spielman, but geeze, have a 5-hour drink and wake the heck up.
Let's be honest Dantonio did suspend him from the end of the third quarter all the way to the begining of the fourth which is more than any of us thought he would.
After reading some further comments and rereading AR's statement, all of the negatives confused me. (DERP). For those as slow as me, he's going as far as he possibly can by saying there is a probability that MSU does the wrong thing.
Gholson's actions are a result of coaching, plain and simple.
Do explain how it was coaching to be penalized 15 yards?
Here’s a quote from MSU defensive coordinator Pat Narduzzi: “That’s what we tried to do, 60 minutes of unnecessary roughness. Just glad it didn’t get called every snap.”
Well, if that is the case, I stand corrected. Thank you for the quote.
Didn't a MSU coach actually say they wanted to play 60 minutes of unnecessary roughness and hoped they all wouldn't get called?
Narduzzi, the D(bag) coordinator
Yep. Pat Narduzzi the DC.
Guido...just for fun?
with teaching kids to hate.
No respect is ever deserved for people who teach that.
Not becuase Rittenberg is wrong; he's totally right about Gholston.
But Rittenberg doesn't even mention Marcus Rush.
It is as if Gholston's crime spree is going to overshadow Marcus Rus's intentional injury of Denard Robinnson, allowing Rush to get off the hook. I just hope that we didn't use any racial epithets that made Marcus Rush go crazy. Filthy upper middle class Caucasian prep school product...
If you look at the video of the play before the Rush penalty, you can see Denard's lips call him "Honkey".
if you're serious or not, but that made me laugh.
FWIW Tony Gerdeman from Ozone agrees with you:
it might not be in the best interest of our ivory tower of class and sportsmanship to bring attention to that incident. Roundtree threw Adams to the ground after the whistle and what looks to be intentionally gave a stomp on his helmet. It seems like Adams did not like that.
That's a very colorful interpretation of a pancake block by a WR. IIRC, it was Gallon, not Roundtree.
but no one has ever seen the utter disregard for a defenseless player's well being by an intentional cranking on the helmet in an attempt to cause injury. Odds are that a punch with all the equipment on is not going to cause severe damage. The helmet twisting is far, far worse than the punch.
I would also add that the attempt to break Lewan's arm should also be included. If it were me - regardless of the player or the team, the minimum would be a 3 game suspension.
"If Michigan State doesn't step in, which wouldn't totally shock me..."
Sadly it wouldn't shock anyone else either, Adam.
Agreed. Dantonio won't do a damn thing. I'm not holding my breath.
Remember a certain tsio LB choking a Wisconsin QB? Yeah Dantonio was tsio's DC at the time. So the thug behavior is nothing new.
It is an awkward sentence by Rittenberg; I tend toward thinking that Adam means to say that he won't be surprised if Dantonio imposes the suspension himself.
Because there's no way that Gholston is going to escape a suspension. None. Zero chance. Suspension for sure.
And the clever --and utterly disingenuous -- thing for Dantonio to do would be to make it look like he somehow disapproves of what Gholston did.
I am actuallly worried, that Dantonio will self-impose a suspension on Gholston. And expect that that would make all the rest go away.
I want that guy who hurt Denard. I want him suspended.
SUSPEND MARCUS RUSH.
But he said: "If Michigan State does not step in, which would not totally shock me, the Big Ten should step in". I think the common reading is definitely correct, IIRC Rittenberg has been very critical of MSU in seasons past for their terrible discipline.
MSU has just announced a Press conference on Tuesday to address "the Gholston situation" according to Lansing tv and print sources.
"The Gholston situation." Which might confine it to Gholston. I really don't like where this is going. The somber Dantonio; saying he reviewed film; now saying he needs to take action to preserve the fine integrity of his program; what a fine young man Gholston is; how he is learning from this experience.
Delany -- You better fucking suspend Marcus Rush.
Again, I agree about Rush and how bad things were, and with Gholston. I do think Rittenberg was deliberate with his words, however.
And instead Delany lays down the punishment on both Gholston and Rush. One game each, this Saturday. Consistent with Mouton, Reckman and Kurt Coleman.
Dantonio self-imposed a 1 game suspension for Gholston at 4:59 on Wednesday, and the B1G announced a 2 game suspension at 5:00 (plus Rush and Narducci).
I dont see how his punch and twist are not two games.
Personally, I dont really see the big deal about a punch when your opponent is fully padded. Should be 15 yards - that's it.
The head twist to me was an entirely different story. It was not a "football play," and it was calculated to, and could have caused a very serious injury.
It alone should be worth a suspension of at least two games, but I would suspend him for 3 or 4.
They should suspend him for next week and for the game against M next year.
I don't think a punch is very dangerous either. However, I think the Big Ten would rather not have a B1G player punching some other guy on a football field on SportsCenter. It's really, really unsportsmanlike. Fifteen yards and an ejection should be a fair penalty, but the conference already set precedent with Mouton and they damn well better follow it.
For some reason I get the feeling this punk would never consider punching Lewan if he wasn't surrounded by 100,000 people to step in and break up the fight.
Fixed it for ya.
Gholston is not that much smaller than Lewan.
That aggression is deep rooted. Nothing that he might do off the field would surprise me.
More like 76,000.
Edit: Beaten to the punch.
I wouldn't be surprised if he were suspended for their game following Wisconsin, ala a page out of tOSU and Tressel's book with his guys, Tat Gate and the Sugar Bowl.
If it was a page out of Tressel's book, wouldn't he plead their case to let them play their most important game next and then sit out some games next season when it doesn't matter?
I think either one would be a game. so I would think 1 game for Rush and 2 games for Gholston.
Think about this: if Denard had been injured on the helmet twist, would Gholston/MSU/Dantonio be under fire?
I mean, can you IMAGINE if Gholston had actually hurt Denard on that play?
He should be disciplined as if he did because that was the intent. Plain and simple. In my mind, Gholston should not be allowed on a football field again. I would feel the same way if he played for UM. That action was disgusting adn there's no call for it. Ever.
I'd bet a lot of money that the twist would have gotten anyone kicked off of the Michigan football team, and Hoke would probably require an essay on "How I Hurt My Former Teammates" in exchange for a transfer release.
I mean, can you IMAGINE if Gholston had actually hurt Denard on that play?
MARCUS RUSH REALLY DID INJURE DENARD! WE DON'T NEED TO WONDER MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED IF DENARD HAD BEEN INJURED!
Rittenberg is right on. Rivalry games can get chippy, but Gholston took it to another level. Gholston on 3 separate occasions deliberately tried to injure a UofM player. It is sad that some MSU fans try to excuse this.
Hahaha, everyone in the national media is ripping Gholston. He is going to have to live with the label as a dirty player and will ALWAYS be compared to Vernon and how he was a complete lazy ass bust in the NFL. At this point, he will be suspended because of the 24 hour news cycle. With how much press this is getting, if the Big Ten doesn't do something, the entire conference looks bad, especially Delany. MSU COULD save face and suspend him, but we'll see. There are some mind games going on between Big Ten offices outside Chicago and East Lansing. Other options are Gholston beating the shit of someone at an MSU Dorm and going to jail for the weekend, getting a DUI and going to jail, or stealing computers from Detroit Public Schools and getting arrested. All are very possible..
The problem is when you play for MSU, those later scenarios don't result in missing any game time
I want his "unnecessary roughness" quote on Sportscenter every hour for at least a day.
That's the real story here: not just some hothead losing his mind on the field, but players being directed by their coaches to go after an opposing player, repeatedly, outside the rules and after the whistle.
Cannot agree more. We have to fix the problem, not patch up.
A 1-game suspension is standard for throwing punches that aren't especially dangerous. Gholston went way out of his way to deliberately injure opposing players, which is far worse.
A punch should be an automatic 1 game suspension.
The facemask thing...that should be ANOTHER 1 game suspension, at least.
Douchetonio is not going to do anything, we already know that. The Big 10 has to step in..and they have a history of doing so. We should know by Friday.
Suspend Gholston if you want to, or even Rush as well. It won't actually change anything. I don't really think either of those kids are naturally evil or dirty players, I think they're getting all of that from their coaches. They promote and encourage this type of behavior, of course the kids are going to act that way. Someone said that after Rush injured Denard, the coaches and players were high fiving him on the sidelines. Suspending these kids just tries to cure the symptoms while the real problem goes unchecked and it will keep happening over and over until someone steps in, which doesn't seem likely. Suspend Dantonio and Narduzzi for a month and don't do anything to the kids Get the point across that this type of behavior is not acceptable from the coaches, and the players will stop doing these things.
However, the media has painted the narrative that Dantonio is a saint and is just trying to help these troubled kids out, so nothing will happen. There might be a suspension for a player or two, but it'll be one game and after that everyone will just forget about it.
Again, I hate bringing other sports into this, but there should be a limit on personal fouls before the coach is automatically ejected/suspended. Whether or not six is a good number, I don't know.
but more than just Dantonio are to blame; see nardizzi.
But it would act as a deterrent. Dantonio doesn't want to be suspended for 2-3 games a season, thus he (in theory) won't let Narduzzi coach the way he currently does.
And if he does, eff him, suspend Narduzzi as well if he's acting head coach and the same thing happens.
If I understand the rules correctly that Ritternberg transcribed, Michigan State has 3 BUSINESS DAYS to submit their findings/stance on the matter. That's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. The Big 10 then must rule on the matter within 3 BUSINESS DAYS. Thursday, Friday, MONDAY.
Anyone wanna take bets MSU submits their report at 4:59PM on Wednesday?
I actually want him in the Wiscy game. I don't want to hear, after they lose, that their team wasn't in tact and so it wasn't a legitimate win. I also want Wiscy to manhandle him, but that's my own private Idaho.
Let him play Wisconsin, which they lose regardless, then suspend him for the road trip to Nebraska, making that an eminently loseable game as well. If they lose those two, it puts us back in the Legends driver's seat.
"I agree that a one game suspension for Wisky would be about right. Love how he says that Dantonio doing nothing wouldn't shock him." - Lordfoul
One squeezes the Dantonio-bag gently, allowing the rationalization and obsessive behavior to cleanse the cavity, thereby successfully Dantonio-ing.
That's more or less what the man is.
I had a dream last night that I was playing hockey and Denard Robinson was my goalie. Then William Gholston crashed the net and twisted Denard's facemask after the whistle. 0.02 seconds later, my gloves hit the ground and I proceeded to put Gholston's nose through the back of his skull.
Can't do that in football, though....because fighting is "barbaric".
Better than my last dream about cloned Asian security personnel guarding an elevator in a run-down part of town.
I hope you have tall skates, Jim. Tom Gholson stands 6'7" I have no doubt you could kick his ass on the ice 6 ways to Sunday. If you need to sit on my shoulders to get to him, I'll gladly lend my support.
No doubt, Gholston is a monster and would probably man-handle me. However, it isn't about neccessarily beating him, its about letting him know that shit like that will not fly, and that someone is going to stand up to him any time that happens.
I agree with the some of the points made about the behavior being "coached" into the players. "Tom Gholson" should be suspended three games minimum (At least three incidents of intent to inflict injury). Rush should be suspended one game. The DC should be suspended one game for being honest about his effed up coaching philosophy. Dantonio should be suspended one game for being the idiot in charge of it all. I effing hate them......but we cannot reduce ourselves to their level though. It is not the Michigan way. I do know Mr. Lewan will see "Tom Gholson" on the football field again
Should get at least one game each for the disgusting face mask twisting and for the sucker punch. The fact that both occurred in the same game would lead me to believe it should be 2 games.
I'd also like to see the B1G state they are "disappointed" that the refs didn't throw Gholston out of the game. They saw the punch, threw a flag yet didn't toss him for a clear punch. Should be reprimanded for that.
Then add another 1 game for the arm twist on Lewan.
Give me a break. That's like a "rebuke" for Don Corleone. They don't fucking care.
There's only one thing that matters. Hurting their defensive lineup, now, this week, with two suspensions, Gholston and Rush, both of who are deserving of at least one game each (I don't think they'd get more) and hopefully having Wisconsin putting an L on a depleted Sparty.
The rest is complete bullshit. Nobody is teaching Dantonio any lessons.
if it's for 1/2 a game. Dantonio and Narduzi > the goon squad.
he would have laid there for about 2 minutes. Then the ESPN replay would have shown the entire country that Tom Gholson was nothing more than a thug. The outcry by the entire college football world would have destroyed ol' Tom and it couldn't have been more deserving!
Did anyone have flashbacks to the Chicago Bears - Packers game back in 1986 when Charles Martin body slammed Jim McMahon? Martin was suspended two games for it. I would like to think that a college player would rate the same or worse. Both Rush and Gholston.
Here is the link.
If this was the NFL, Narduzzi would be fined big bucks for his comment and suspended. Gholston, Worthy, and Rush all would have been tossed from the game and fined.
On second thought, the tossing of the Gholston and Worthy earlier in the game probably would have deterred Rush.
The refs have to take charge of the game which they did not. The fact that they did not, allowed this to continue throughout the game. 15 yard penalties usually deter the coaching staff and players. Obviously, it did not deter MSU.
They have to start tossing players during the game. If not, some teams may find it a good swap to commit a foul during a game if their next game is against a weak opponent. It is extremely fortunate, for punishment purposes, that MSU has Wisconsin and Nebraska as their next two games.
The Big Ten really needs to come down hard on MSU to prevent this in the future.
I say Gholston gets three games, one for each offense; Narduzzi, Worthy and Rush one game.
that the punch is a heat-of-the-moment move, and that he may have been provoked. It's still against the rules. If you are going to have freakin' rules, enforce the freakin' rules.
Edit: make it three, starting with the arm bend early on. Refs failed miserably on five-six-seven plays in this game that would have had M right there at the end. Sorry but--with the game more carefully weighed--this is legitimately a game worth complaining about. Hope the grow-a-set crowd will shut up now.