Return to Recruiting Dominance
Last year, Michigan went 4-4 in head to head recruiting battles against Michigan State. This year, Hoke and his staff are off to an 8-0 start!
Against Ohio State last year, Michigan went 0-12(!) head to head on the recruiting trail. Currently, Michigan is 1-2 (1 of Ohio St. commits being Brionte Dunn, who has legitimate interest in Michigan).
Compared to last year's results, Michigan recruiting has taken a complete 180. Rather than beating the Illinois and Pittsburghs of the world, Michigan is going head to head with Alabama, Oklahoma, and Ohio State for recruits. Let's hope that Hoke and Co. can keep it up!
I don't really understand how you can't see that comparing RR's recruiting to Hoke's is exactly like comparing RR's recruiting to Hoke's. I see it.
It wasn't a comparison of RR's recruits to Hoke's. The OP wasn't saying that this class is higher ranked.
It was a comparison between who we were/are battling for recruits. He's stating - albeit redundantly - that we're beating out teams like MSU and OSU for recruits, which didn't happen a whole lot last year.
That's a valid point, and it has nothing to do with pitting the 2011 class vs. the 2008 class. You basically hijacked the thread by turning it into a Hoke 2011 vs. Rodriguez 2008 thing, which isn't what the thread was about.
The title is "A Return to Recruiting Dominance" which implies that we haven't been dominant in recruiting over the last few years.
I showed data proving that we were, in fact, dominant (top 10) in recruiting over the last few years.
My overall point was not pitting 2008 class vs. 2011 class. It was that the "roughly similar albeit rushed first year" of recruiting by each coach roundly rejects the OP's presumptuion that we were ever not dominant in recruiting.
If you can't see the connection then I can't help you.
While we obviously disagree on the subject matter, I can't see why either of our comments up and back would be marked as flamebait. Seems like a pretty reasonable discussion without much name calling or attempts to start a pro-RR / anti-RR fight. I think that perhaps people are way too sensitive to ANY discussion that involves the name RR and that the "flamebait" tag is being used way too liberally.
I would guess that what you're seeing is a lack of choices for negative moderation. Folks can choose from "offtopic", "flamebait", "trolling" and "overrated". In general, a negative moderation is going to be "flamebait" or "trolling" because there is no "disagree" (or similar) choice. So..."flamebait" probably because people have grown tired of the angry, sarcastic RR defense of your sparring partner (especially when the thread was really just a "things are going well" thread).
Looking at the other choices for a neg, I guess this is probably the best default. Perhaps there should be a choice for "general suckiness of comment" on the drop down.
"Redundant" is another possibility.
Last night I, in all sincerity, told my girlfriend that I was going to be really busy in early June working on a business I'm trying to start and probably wouldn't be able to tag along with her on a moderately long interstate road trip. This obviously led to an argument about how I wasn't making time for her and haven't been putting as much effort into the relationship as before. She reads too much into things too.
As to your first sentence, I wouldn't disrespect the 2011 signees by saying last year was shitty. Only that there were some, ahem, challenges that both RR and Hoke had to deal with. How this should spark a RR vs Hoke discussion, I'll leave that up to you, His Dudeness and Section 1 to decide.
As to your second sentence, please show me where in the OP's post he rehashes the last 3 years of recruiting vs. this year's recruiting. Can't? Well then, just like my girlfriend, you're reading into things that aren't there.
Unlike you, I'm not trying to imply anything. The OP titled his thread "Return to Recruiting Dominance" then went on to discuss a 180 from last year (and did not discuss any other previous year). Last year, we went through the NCAA infractions, the RR hotseat, beatdowns by our rivals, a stomping in our bowl game, the RR firing, the Process, etc. Our recruiting class turned out good but we didn't exactly dominate MSU or compete with OSU as we have so far this year, and for good reason...our program was in a state of flux. This is all I took from the OP based on his plain language.
I'm not the OP, don't know who he is, what his mission was for this original post or what he's up to today to not have posted again. What I do believe is that most people wouldn't objectively say his post was meant to incite a flame war, regardless of what the OP was actually trying to accomplish. But go ahead and keep placing whatever meaning you want on whatever you want to. I mean, obviously a flame war is intended when three singular posters out of the masses are the only ones getting themselves all worked up.
This recruiting class isn't unique in comparison to last year, it's unique in comparison to any year in the past 40 years.
You know this for a fact? We have historically dominated Sparty in head-to-head recruiting, and held our own against OSU.
Anyway, If the OP's intention was to argue that Hoke is recruiting better than RR, why does that offend you? Isn't it a good thing if our current coach is improving our level of recruiting?
We have the possibility of getting the top 10 players in the state....name the last time that happened. That is all I was getting at.
And I don't really care if Hoke is recruiting better than RR 9 months before signing day (which he probably is). I don't even care if he said Hoke is a way better recruitier than RR because, quite simply, we have no clue if this is correct (unless the OP only wants to base his argument on dominating in-state recruiting and taking 1 guy from OSU, which is great, but really tells us very little). I just think this small point could have been put on one of the million TomVH update posts or the billion other recruiting posts as all this does is start a flame war...which is exactly what I stated.
Before speaking for everyone negging him, you should probably read the initial replies on this thread before you three started your pissing match. I suspect they have different reasons for negging than you. Even I was going to neg him for what amounts to an obvious, redundant, cool-story-bro post. Useless post? Probably. Insidious? Only if you have a subjective agenda as your first paragraph above clearly points to.
Oh, and someone simply negging him (even if it were because they think the OP is slighting RR) is not the same as getting worked up and starting an unnecessary flame war.
So I shouldn't speak for the rest of the board and why they are negging him, but you are free to speculate as to what people think and why he is being negged?
Got it.
This board is quickly becoming MLive-esque. I think I will come up with a post stating all of the reasons I love RichRod and then be amazed when it turns into a big argument.
Ah the MLive routine. When all else is going wrong for you in an argument, it's a great go to!
All the best to you my man, you clearly have some Richrod issues you need to work through regardless of how appropriate they are in a given forum. You may continue your unreasonableness and wild speculations without the obstacle of my rationality. I can do no more and must be moving on.
Logan, I loved the comment about people pulling the MLive card. You need to post more often.
I don't know how those "facts" refute the OP's argument, which is unrelated to anything you've said.
But RR's #10 overall class was put together over two months, while Hoke had about three weeks.
Furthermore, Michigan was coming off a three year record of 27-11 in 2008 (if I remember the three previous seasons correctly). Meanwhile, Michigan is coming off a three year record of 15-22 here in 2011 with some recent NCAA sanctions/probation hanging over their heads.
So a #21 recruiting class might actually be a better achievement for Hoke than a #10 recruiting class was for Rodriguez, considering the circumstances.
But you can keep carrying on like someone takes a daily piss in your cereal. It's kind of fun to watch you post on here these days.
Do the final 2 sentences make this flamebait? I guess not. This board is fucked.
Oh no! The posters on this board tend to have an optimistic view for the program's future which can't be reconciled with your "facts" and anger issues! The board is fucked! How will the program survive with a fucked up message board?!?!
Hate to see you feel that way. I don't follow every thread to know what everyone is saying, but I get that some still feel RR was mistreated.
When I started following the board though, I really enjoyed your contributions. What I struggle with nowdays is this: why does every thread get sucked back into the RR debate black hole? It's over...let's get behind the team.
The OP starts a positive thread...clearly recruiting IS looking good right now. As you say, time will tell. For now though, the Hoke train is leaving the station. I'm hoping you (and others) eventually jump on it with us.
Huh? Really? Why would anybody NOT think that RR was mistreated? What has changed? Is he now being treated fairly? Has the record been corrected somehow?
I can understand that low-level fandom ("My team, right or wrong") might demand that some say, let's just forget about the past. We've got a new coach to root for now, Yay!
But a guy is not "forgetting about the past" if he is going out of his way to say that "things are so much better, now that Rodriguez is gone."
I recall exceedingly well that the Detroit Free Press' Publisher, Paul Anger, came out swinging against the harsh critics of Rosenberg and Snyder; Anger wrote off the critics as "passionate Michigan fans." As if their good sense had somehow been blinded by rooting for their favorite team, and failing to see the rightness of the Free Press' reporting. Which was complete bullshit from Anger and the Free Press. I hate that paper and its staff because they are awful, not because I think Michigan is infallible and I'm a Michigan fan. If Paul Anger were right, and I was somehow blinded by my passion for Michigan, I'd be on the Hoke bandwagon now. I certainly wish Hoke and the team well, but I'm not changing my mind one iota about how the Detroit Free Press led the region's and the nation's press in treating Rich Rodriguez unfairly.
However you feel about Brady Hoke (I think he's a likable guy), there is no reason whatsoever for anybody to stop thinking that Rich Rodriguez was treated unfairly.
"...there is no reason whatsoever for anybody to stop thinking that Rich Rodriguez was treated unfairly."
I don't need any reason, because I never STARTED thinking it. The man took the job, got paid well, and it didn't work out. I pulled for him the whole time, BTW, that's what fans of a program do. As far as I can tell, RR is a good man. He doesn't need your sympathy.
I don't like the Free Press either, but I think you overestimate their impact on the RR era. You're giving them FAR too much credit.
He's got a lot of tilting to do.
One of the best parts about Rodriguez getting fired is watching His Dudeness suffer.
because we all were suffering and then RR got fired.
The recruiting is going GREAT. Not good, not well--but GREAT. A program that has been down in the dumps needs things like goodwill, Mattision, "I would walk to Ann Arbor" "I don't wear red" and RECRUITS, especially good ones in your own back yard.
Michigan needs, NEEDS to take it to MSU and let MSU start spinning (Oh, we're going national now)--I like the priorities Hoke has set. I like his approach, and the results so far speak for themselves.
sounding like a much bigger jerk right now?
Or are you on break?
to take gratuitous shots at Rich Rodriguez.
I'd have been very happy to say that by all measures I know of, Brady Hoke and his staff are doing a very good job on the recruiting trail. I'd also be happy to say that Greg Mattison, our new $900,000 Defensive Coordinator, sems to be doing a remarkable job. And I wouldn't mind leaving it there.
But when people want to say that our recruting now is good, where before it was bad, then Dudeness is exactly right, and Sir Jack is back to his same old Rodriguez-flamebaiting. Sir Jack is a virtual troll on this subject. This week might just have proven once and for all that Eleven Warriors is FAR more charitable to Rich Rodriguez than is Sir Jack.
Brady Hoke is now recruiting with Michigan's NCAA investigation safely disposed of. Brady Hoke is now recruiting 2012 and 2013 h.s. classes in Michigan that look to have better talent, from more Michigan-favorable high schools than the outlier year of 2010. Brady Hoke has gotten some good kids from Ohio, but there is scant evidence that we have suddenly turned around our lack of success in recruiting head-to-head versus Ohio State. Rich Rodriguez seemed to be doing a good job, in fact, in recruiting kids against the likes of Florida (Denard) Alabama (Dee Hart) and Penn State. I'm not claiming any great superiority, just making the point that needs to be made, on the evidence.
There's no good reason to suggest that Brady Hoke has been doing anything less than a very good job recruting. But as Dudeness rightly says, there is also no good reason to suggest that we are somehow seeing a "turnaround," from years of bad recruting.
Thanks. I sincerely appreciate this comment.
His Dudeness - you are a very sucky poster.
Without getting too into the weeds here, it appears we are no longer seeing "diamond in the rough" after "diamond in the rough". We are seeing diamonds. We are gaining commitments from (primarily) 4* recruits with offers from other major programs. Is this because the state has more talent this year? Cass Tech having multiple prospects? Farmington Harrison having more....ooops, nevermind.
The OP said that we're seeing a turn around from "last year's results". Then you, master of the conspiracy and overblown everything, change "last year" to "years of bad recruting [sic]." C'mon man. Relax a bit. Things are going well. No one is attacking your boy just by noting positive developments under Hoke.
p.s. I like the way you slid in "$900,000 Defensive Coordinator". What's even the point of that comment? Are you implying that RR was hampered in selecting his choice of DC (twice)?
Are you implying that RR was hampered in selecting his choice of DC (twice)?
Yes. Thanks for asking.
And, your proof? Name the people that "unknown forces" prevented him from hiring (twice).
Jeff Casteel. It's well-documented.
Maybe you're right, but please include links; name those who prevented his hiring; etc. All I've read indicates that he wanted his family to remain in WV. If it's "well documented", I assume it should be easy for you to show how RR was prohibited from hiring Casteel.
This has been a problem since the late Carr era. See: English, Ron. RR tried to hire Casteel in 2008 and after 2010, but both times, the Michigan AD didn't pony up enough money to motivate Casteel to move from Morgantown to Ann Arbor. Now that we're willing to pay big bucks for a top DC, our on-field performance as well as recruiting should improve.
Even if Michigan has been "notoriously cheap," I haven't seen any documentation that money is what prevented Casteel from following Rodriguez to Michigan. AFAIK, that's pure speculation perpetuated by people on this board.
The "notoriously cheap" allegation applies more to basketball than football. The football program has never been skimped on. Carr asked for, and repeatedly got, pay raises for his assistants (not to mention himself). I'm not sure what Ron English has to do with anything. Carr didn't like to hire guys outside the program. There is no reason to believe that Carr wanted someone else and settled on English.
English was also the architect of The Horror and Safety Doom started up in earnest under his watch.
If you're saying that Lloyd made a bad hire in English, I agree. But I have absolutely no idea why you'd think Lloyd was forced to hire English. You're going to have to explain that one to me.
If Michigan is as storied and magnificent as we make it out to be, surely in the halcyon days of the program we could have made a better DC hire then Ron English. I just find the assumption that Ron English was high on Carr's list somewhat questionable.
If you know what kind of a person Lloyd Carr is, it shouldn't surprise you at all.
Carr, for better or worse, was extremely loyal to his guys. He never once went outside the program for a coordinator, even though he easily could have. This unfortunately contributed to his failure to develop a successor from within.
I agree that RR tried to hire Casteel, but you offer zero evidence to support your theory that not enough money was offered. You said it was "well documented" that RR was hampered in hiring his choice of DC. It doesn't appear he was hampered, it just appears that he was turned down by his top choice.
what more documentation is needed when you go from paying 277k to 900k in one year. Is Mattison subtantially better, of course...generally, you get what you pay for. If RR was given a 900k budget for D coordinator and said "meh, I can get ole' GERG for much less" then, well, he got what he deserved. I think anyone thinking that was actually the case is being a little dishonest with themselves. I think hampered and handcuffed and the like are certainly very negative portrayals of the situation but he obviously didn't have an open check book to get anyone he wanted...otherwise he would have.