You do know he helped put together a title team and 6 consecutive Eastern Finals team right? it"s a transition, they"ll be back.
to play football, not to play trumpet
You do know he helped put together a title team and 6 consecutive Eastern Finals team right? it"s a transition, they"ll be back.
Hammond did all the heavy lifting, Dumars has sucked since Hammond bolted for Milwaukee.
Correlation does not imply causation
Trading Billups for Iverson and using the eventual excess cash to sign Gordon and Villanueva for way too much money does though. Not to mention all the terrible coaching hires.
So all that means John Hammond made the trade for Ben Wallace, the trade for Rasheed, the trade for Rip, the initial signing of Chauncey, the drafting of Tay, etc. I assume you work for the Pistons, because no one watching the games at home would know all the details behind the scenes of the organization. But you state it as if it's fact, so I guess you do know more than the rest of us.
Do I like his moves recently? Hell no. But give the guy credit for putting together a championship contender. Did I mention that he's made good decisions recently, or that he should be above all criticism? No. But at least respect what he did for this franchise. Notice that no where did I say he should keep his job because of his past success.
I am indeed saying John Hammond was behind most of those moves. Most knowledgable Pistons fans are aware that Hammond was constantly in Dumars' ear.
Then you must work for the Pistons, because no regular fan would know the interactions between a GM and his assistant GM. You realize you're saying you know for a fact John Hammond built this team because Joe D has made bad decisions in the recent past. Provide proof other than "John Hammond left, and now we suck" and I'll shut up. But until then you're just making assumptions you can't prove, but are stating as fact.
Give me 20 minutes, just have to go across the office and get a hold of the emails we keep on file here at the Palace.
We sucked before John Hammond left. And the seeds of our suckiness were sowed long before his exit.
Joe was a victim of his own success. He rebuilt the Pistons into a championship team, and every trade he made was a great one. Joe did so will in trades that other GM's were afraid of being the next one to be made to look stupid by getting the worst end of a trade with him. Consequently, every team that has offered anyone in a trade for the last five or six years has made lowball offers that are designed more to shut Joe up than to actually consummate a trade with him.
The other big problem is that Detroit is NOT a destination for free agents in any sport except hockey. New York. LA, and Chicago have better endorsement opportunities, while Florida has no state income tax and much better weather. One could reasonably argue that more than half of the current NBA franchises have much better weather than Detroit.
Detroit is perceived, fairly or unfairly, as one of the biggest cesspools in the country, and most FA's are going to have Detroit far down the list of preferred destinations. Even the reputation the Pistons had for treating players with class wasn't enough to lure bona fide, talented FA's to Detroit.
For years, the national media have "promoted" Detroit as the "Murder City." The recent trend of outsourcing by the Big Three, whether to Mexico or non union-friendly states, and the subsequent "shrinkage" of population hasn't done anything to improve Detroit's image.
A GM or coach is only as good as his players. Under the current system, it is difficult for any GM to rebuild a team when nobody wants to live in his city, and he doesn't get any bona fide offers in trade talks. Joe Dumars has had a hand in every NBA Championship the Pistons have won in the history of their franchise. That's good enough for me.
in recent years. The players are not living in Detroit, but in Oakland, which is one he wealthiest counties in the country. So destination, while a negative, is not as a big of an issue as you make it seem.
Dumars has made his own bed through his atrocious drafting. The Darko selection goes down in history as one of the worst ever made considering who else was available. Wade, Bosh, Melo, etc. If he done the smart thing and taken Wade or Melo, the Pistons would still be a good team .
Dumars has not been able to trade his way of the mess he made and it is coming back to haunt the Pistons. They have to hope that Knight and Monroe develop into a nucleus they can build around.
Just look at the Blazers for one ( and not just Oden.)
Here are the lottery picks from 85 to 06: http://www.nba.com/history/lottery_picks.html for your reading pleasure!
The Lions and Tigers? Like who? I am talking about legit free agent signings, not left over players that no one else really cared to sign.
The last actual free agent to come to Detroit before his time was up is Pudge Rodriguez. Other than that, no top free agent has signed with any Detroit team other than the Wings.
With respect to baseball, who outside of NY, Boston, and LAA has signed major free agents consistently? It is the nature of the sport that only a couple of teams tend to overpay for free agents, while most create homegrown talent and then keep them. Detroit locked up Verlander and traded for Cabrera, two of the top 10-12 players in baseball year in/year-out. In baseball terms, those are huge moves and ones that the player had direct control over - Miggy could have not resigned or made a massive stink about going to Detroit, but he seemed okay with it.
As for football, I think the crap on the field hurt free agents going to the city more than the city itself. Also, free agents in football do not move around nearly as much as other sports, so fewer teams have major FA signings as a rule.
Ehhh. Villanueva's contract started at something around 6.56 million (assuming he's been getting 7% raises and my math is correct). That's pretty fair for a guy that put up 16/7 in 27mpg the season before.
Post Hoke Ergo Propter Hoke
Are doing so amazing with Hammond. They have won how may conference championships and titles?
Oh wait they still suck and he has signed some terrible players.
Signing McDyess was a good move.
Drafting Afflalo was a good move (completely offset by trading him for nothing).
Drafting Stuckey at 15 is good value.
Actually freeing up cap room by trading Billups was a good move. Not having plans to use the money to really get better, but actually get worse deep sixes this move big time. Would have been better to keep him and at least let the old crew roll out than sign stiffs.
Drafting Greg Monroe was ok. But he couldn't pull the trigger to turn that pick into an impact player. (Honorable mention for a 2nd rounder on Jerebko).
So yeah, even the logical or suprisingly good movies have fallen into the crapper.
I can't believe you said "let Ben Wallace walk." Do you think Joe D should have overpaid him like the Bulls did?
You mean other than all the money we would have lost by paying him too much? I don't like a lot of what Joe D has done lately, but not overpaying for Ben Wallace is on the list of things he did correctly
Joe's biggest fault, as far as I'm concerned, is that he has held onto both the 2004 blueprint and its players for far too long. In hindsight I can tell you that I would have gone nuts if he kept Wallace for that price.
I don't know if I have ever heard this. In the history of sports. Ben was not worth anywhere near what the Bulls paid him and it wasn't even close. But you are suggesting that the correct move would have been for the Stones to sign him for almost as much, waist a lot of money in the process, so we could suck right away instead of a slow decline? Wow. Just wow. So then Joe did a great thing when he signed Charlie V and Benny G to big contracts because he just wanted us to suck badly so we could rebuild quicker instead of actually signing good players. Amazing.
He was signed to replace Memo due to some weird NBA rules. Long term he wasn't as useful, by short term it was a great recovery replacement. You can't blame him for not realizing the bad moves were going to be bad, but then say the good one's were luck.
Stuckey and Monroe were better than players drafted before them. That's all you can ask with a draft pick.
And what Joe did with the Billups money was abysmal, but to be able to free up that much cap room was a good move. He just chose to use it on crap rather than convince a big name free agent that a team that lived in the ECFs was just "that guy" away from a ring.
I'm not sure the upside of Afflalo is as high as Stuckey, but the pain in the ass factor is way lower. But since he drafted them both, he did the right thing, because he could get both. It's like Rodman was a better player than Salley, but Salley wasn't going to be available in round 2 and Rodman was.
Neither are good enough to rebuild around, but you don't get players to rebuild around where those guys are drafted. If you want to make an overall case that the philosophy of not sucking to get a high draft pick you can build around is unsound, you won't get any argument from me. But you originally said he hadn't made ANY good moves, not that his overall job was poor. I even conceded that while there were some good moves, they weren't/aren't particularly impactful.
You also have to take into account ownership and willingness to make moves and spend money. I'm not saying he gets a life-time pass. I do think he's smart and I'm on board for him to have a shot to really rebuild with Frank and Gores. Time will tell.
I can't follow the Pistons. It's just too painful. If only they showed some plan for improvement instead of signing any shoot first guard they can get their hands on.
I hope the pistons draft Zack Novak next year.
What did Zack ever do to you?
He *CAN* rebound better than Villanueva or Maxiell...
We're stuck in that phase where we suck really bad, yet not bad enough to get the first pick and draft a superstar...pretty much the worst place to be.
1.Trade everyone for draft picks (preferably with the T-Wolves)
All I know is that if the players turn their back on Lawrence Frank this year, I'll never watch a Piston game again until every player on the roster is gone.
That's the way it generally works in the NBA. You don't get anything for being mediocre. Might as well trade what you do have and hope for decent picks or go for broke like the Celtics did.
I'd like to see Stuck at the 2 and see Ben Gordon moved.
Not a bad option but the Pistons would need to find an outside shooter to go along with him. He is awful from beyond 12 feet.
1. I don't care about professional basketball.
2.With that being said, Stuckey is not a player to build a team around. Guy is a 1/2 guard, neither really. I categorize him as a great 6th man off the bench for a championship contender. Not much more than that
I disagree. Stuckey is a top 10 SG in the NBA, problem is, they dont use him at SG enough. Hopefully with Hamilton being gone that changes. And before you freak out, look at the PER ratings from last season and slot Stuckey's 18.46 rating in as a SG.
but he's no Loy Vaught.
I am more appalled that we offered him the contract more than I am that he rejected it. Either him or Gordon needs to be moved as both are 6th men in my mind.
Although Terry Foster tweeted that sources are telling him that Stuckey wasn't even offered this contract.
This team is a mess. I don't even know what to think. No direction at all. Just kind of unsure where we are heading, just like last year where we had a logjam of guards and no consistent rotation. Hopefully Frank figures it out. Although I'm not sure he can with what Dumars is giving him.
Just like 80 percent of the teams in the league. This rush to get the season started by Christmas is a money grab, but how many teams will be watchable when the smoke clears?
....and tell Dumars that Iwould accept $40-$45 million over 5 years, but I have not yet heard back from him. I suck at basketball, but the money is attractive all the same.
In my opinion, $8-$9 million per year for five years is a high price for Stuckey. I am not sure that's worth it, in all honesty. It seems to me that Dumars wants to rebuild, or try to do so, but we're just now finding out how close to scratch the Pistons will be rebuilding from. I have a feeling that we'll be selecting early in the lottery this year...
Hey, at least we're not the Cavs/Nets/76ers/Wizards/Clippers/Suns/Rockets/Kings/Twolves/
Raptors/Warriors/Hornets/Pacers/Bobcats/Bucks, ect. A few years of aging veterans, and a few years of no real owner, and a few years of playing with one of the NBA's lower salary caps, and a year of lockout aren't helping the cause much either. It pretty much sucks to be any of 2 dozen NBA teams right now.
I would love to be the Clippers, Pacers or Kings right now. Hell, even being the Warriors wouldn't be that bad. At least they have legitimate stars.
I wish someone would offer me a 5 year contract for the kind of money he got offered.
internet poster balks at average NBA player rejecting overly lucrative contract offer.
Joe is in a tough spot. They aren't going to get a premium free agent to sign with Detroit, and with max contracts, they all are basically making the same offer. The only way to rebuild that roster on the fly like Joe wants to do is via trade, but he doesn't really have a lot of assets that will bring back a lot with Stuckey probably being his most valuable trade chip.
The only way to rebuild that roster is tank and draft your superstar. Sadly, Joe doesn't share that vision. Being the 7th or 8th seed and getting destroyed in the first round every year is pointless.
Stuckey plays hard. I'll grant him that.
However, he doesn't have point guard instincts. And he can't shoot. I never thought he was a good fit and still don't.
Maybe Stuckey will sign the 1-yr qualifying offer, become a free agent next year and find out he won't make as much as the Pistons are offering him now.
I think I'm at the point where I no longer understand Dumars's plan. You could make sense of the Billups trade and some of the draft picks, while questionable, you could at least justify ex ante (hey - the NBA draft is no easy thing to master). But what are we going to do with Brandon Knight, Ben Gordon, Rodney Stuckey, and Will Bynum? That's two point guards and two undersized 2-guards.
I'm beginning to think that most NBA GMs have no idea what they're doing - they just play plinko until they get a good base of guys, then know well enough not to do more than tinker with the fringes for awhile.
I consider all 4 of them to be undersized 2-guards.
He's a little young for what Joe D is putting together anyway.
They should trade picks for next year and tank so they can get Hardaway Jr and McGary to build around.
HALLELUJAH RODNEY STUCKEY IS SAVING JOE FROM HIMSELF.
good god, Matt Millen thinks you are awful Joe.
The biggest problem the NBA has now is it is a total players league both on and off the floor. It has always been a players game on the floor. It's fine if you had the character of the players from the 80s and early 90s. These current guys are mostly obsessed with marketing themselves and all that. They want to play in big markets to help them along on that goal.
It's horrible for the league.
If you are team like Detroit, you can't make mistakes because there isn't an elite free agent coming.
I love Pistons updates as much as anybody...but I had to neg you for upvoting your own post.
the offer is a joke....and rejection is even more of a joke. Reality is that the only guy who might be a solid 10 yr guy is Monroe mainly because he is a good passer and has a decent 15fter for a big.
Stuckey as said is an undersized 2 guard with limited range. Add in the fact that even though he attacks the bucket he wil not get a whistle because he is not a star. That is a bad combo to have for your starting 2 guard.
Anybody think Novak will be drafted???
There is about a 0.1% chance of him being drafted.
There's a chance...
He probably wants that 1 year deal in New York. It's where all the players want to play.
Thanks, nice story. No wonder they aren't worried about bringing in a QB in this class.
oops. wrong thread, meant to respond about walk on QB Alex Swieca
He doesn't want to be behind Brandon Knight next year... And that's probably what will happen...
At least post this as OT. This is a University of Michigan blog, not a state of Michigan blog. Like millions of other U of M fans, I really don't care about your Pistons.
If you don't care, don't respond. Honestly, how hard is this people? I don't care about campus housing, I'm gonna go complain about it in that thread......
Since there are 70+ responses, I'd say a fair amount of people care. Those that don't can easily not read the thread. It's not like there's 20 NBA threads on the first page.
Rip Hamilton also signed with Chicago. Great fit me thinks and could possibly put them over if Jo and Booz can be healthy by playoffs.
I have been posting trades on other message boards that would send rip to Chicago for the past three seasons. #vindicated
The almost trade of Rip to Chicago last year didn't vindicate you? Dumars was packing Rip's bags until Rip said no IIRC
That was Rip to Cleveland. We were offering Rip and a 1st for their TPE (technically, LeBron was signed and traded to Miami). He refused that, and then refused a buyout, and was subsequently buried on the bench again.