Report: Stuckey balks at the Pistons 5 year offer
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2011/12/report_restricted_free_agent_r.html
I'm not sure what is more surprising in this, the fact that we ACTUALLY offered a 5 year deal to Stuckey, or the fact that he turned it down. Either way, this is failure all around, and further proves Dumars either has no clue how to rebuild, or doesn't want to. At this point, Dumars is running this team with all the savviness and experience of Elgin Baylor, and Kevin Mchale. Someone wake me for the draft lottery selections.....
December 14th, 2011 at 2:21 PM ^
FIRE JOE DUMARS!
FIRE JOE DUMARS!
FIRE JOE DUMARS!
FIRE JOE DUMARS!
FIRE JOE DUMARS!
December 14th, 2011 at 2:35 PM ^
You do know he helped put together a title team and 6 consecutive Eastern Finals team right? it"s a transition, they"ll be back.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:37 PM ^
Hammond did all the heavy lifting, Dumars has sucked since Hammond bolted for Milwaukee.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:42 PM ^
Correlation does not imply causation
December 14th, 2011 at 2:44 PM ^
Trading Billups for Iverson and using the eventual excess cash to sign Gordon and Villanueva for way too much money does though. Not to mention all the terrible coaching hires.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^
So all that means John Hammond made the trade for Ben Wallace, the trade for Rasheed, the trade for Rip, the initial signing of Chauncey, the drafting of Tay, etc. I assume you work for the Pistons, because no one watching the games at home would know all the details behind the scenes of the organization. But you state it as if it's fact, so I guess you do know more than the rest of us.
Do I like his moves recently? Hell no. But give the guy credit for putting together a championship contender. Did I mention that he's made good decisions recently, or that he should be above all criticism? No. But at least respect what he did for this franchise. Notice that no where did I say he should keep his job because of his past success.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:01 PM ^
I am indeed saying John Hammond was behind most of those moves. Most knowledgable Pistons fans are aware that Hammond was constantly in Dumars' ear.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:14 PM ^
Then you must work for the Pistons, because no regular fan would know the interactions between a GM and his assistant GM. You realize you're saying you know for a fact John Hammond built this team because Joe D has made bad decisions in the recent past. Provide proof other than "John Hammond left, and now we suck" and I'll shut up. But until then you're just making assumptions you can't prove, but are stating as fact.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:19 PM ^
Give me 20 minutes, just have to go across the office and get a hold of the emails we keep on file here at the Palace.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM ^
We sucked before John Hammond left. And the seeds of our suckiness were sowed long before his exit.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:32 PM ^
Joe was a victim of his own success. He rebuilt the Pistons into a championship team, and every trade he made was a great one. Joe did so will in trades that other GM's were afraid of being the next one to be made to look stupid by getting the worst end of a trade with him. Consequently, every team that has offered anyone in a trade for the last five or six years has made lowball offers that are designed more to shut Joe up than to actually consummate a trade with him.
The other big problem is that Detroit is NOT a destination for free agents in any sport except hockey. New York. LA, and Chicago have better endorsement opportunities, while Florida has no state income tax and much better weather. One could reasonably argue that more than half of the current NBA franchises have much better weather than Detroit.
Detroit is perceived, fairly or unfairly, as one of the biggest cesspools in the country, and most FA's are going to have Detroit far down the list of preferred destinations. Even the reputation the Pistons had for treating players with class wasn't enough to lure bona fide, talented FA's to Detroit.
For years, the national media have "promoted" Detroit as the "Murder City." The recent trend of outsourcing by the Big Three, whether to Mexico or non union-friendly states, and the subsequent "shrinkage" of population hasn't done anything to improve Detroit's image.
A GM or coach is only as good as his players. Under the current system, it is difficult for any GM to rebuild a team when nobody wants to live in his city, and he doesn't get any bona fide offers in trade talks. Joe Dumars has had a hand in every NBA Championship the Pistons have won in the history of their franchise. That's good enough for me.
December 14th, 2011 at 4:25 PM ^
in recent years. The players are not living in Detroit, but in Oakland, which is one he wealthiest counties in the country. So destination, while a negative, is not as a big of an issue as you make it seem.
Dumars has made his own bed through his atrocious drafting. The Darko selection goes down in history as one of the worst ever made considering who else was available. Wade, Bosh, Melo, etc. If he done the smart thing and taken Wade or Melo, the Pistons would still be a good team .
Dumars has not been able to trade his way of the mess he made and it is coming back to haunt the Pistons. They have to hope that Knight and Monroe develop into a nucleus they can build around.
December 14th, 2011 at 5:14 PM ^
Just look at the Blazers for one ( and not just Oden.)
Here are the lottery picks from 85 to 06: http://www.nba.com/history/lottery_picks.html for your reading pleasure!
December 14th, 2011 at 7:50 PM ^
The Lions and Tigers? Like who? I am talking about legit free agent signings, not left over players that no one else really cared to sign.
The last actual free agent to come to Detroit before his time was up is Pudge Rodriguez. Other than that, no top free agent has signed with any Detroit team other than the Wings.
December 15th, 2011 at 12:41 PM ^
With respect to baseball, who outside of NY, Boston, and LAA has signed major free agents consistently? It is the nature of the sport that only a couple of teams tend to overpay for free agents, while most create homegrown talent and then keep them. Detroit locked up Verlander and traded for Cabrera, two of the top 10-12 players in baseball year in/year-out. In baseball terms, those are huge moves and ones that the player had direct control over - Miggy could have not resigned or made a massive stink about going to Detroit, but he seemed okay with it.
As for football, I think the crap on the field hurt free agents going to the city more than the city itself. Also, free agents in football do not move around nearly as much as other sports, so fewer teams have major FA signings as a rule.
December 14th, 2011 at 4:01 PM ^
Ehhh. Villanueva's contract started at something around 6.56 million (assuming he's been getting 7% raises and my math is correct). That's pretty fair for a guy that put up 16/7 in 27mpg the season before.
December 14th, 2011 at 4:13 PM ^
on a bad lotto team. CV is a horrible defender, takes bad shots, and can't pass.
As a 7th or 8th man on the right contender, he'd be a useful option to suck up some minutes and provide a scoring threat - but on the Pistons, he's worthless, regardless of what he makes.
December 14th, 2011 at 8:37 PM ^
CV is a hairless freak and deserves the amnesty. PEACE
December 14th, 2011 at 2:46 PM ^
Veritas
December 14th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
Post Hoke Ergo Propter Hoke
?
December 14th, 2011 at 3:12 PM ^
Are doing so amazing with Hammond. They have won how may conference championships and titles?
Oh wait they still suck and he has signed some terrible players.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:42 PM ^
Since trading for Rasheed Wallace?
You can only live off the glory of the Hill trade, the Stackhouse trade, and the Billups signing for so long. Those were absolutely brilliant moves, but happened almost a decade ago.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:52 PM ^
Signing McDyess was a good move.
Drafting Afflalo was a good move (completely offset by trading him for nothing).
Drafting Stuckey at 15 is good value.
Actually freeing up cap room by trading Billups was a good move. Not having plans to use the money to really get better, but actually get worse deep sixes this move big time. Would have been better to keep him and at least let the old crew roll out than sign stiffs.
Drafting Greg Monroe was ok. But he couldn't pull the trigger to turn that pick into an impact player. (Honorable mention for a 2nd rounder on Jerebko).
So yeah, even the logical or suprisingly good movies have fallen into the crapper.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
McDyess was a calculated risk that 'worked' because he didn't get hurt. However, in the end, the team didn't move foward with McDyess. It give them an excuse to let Ben Wallace walk, and the team was never the same after.
Afflalo was a great find, but as you said, offset by giving him away.
For where they were drafted, Stuckey and Monroe were average draft choices.
Billups had value. The pistons got nothing for him. On top of that, they'd have been better of keeping him than signing BG and CV.
Dumars has done very little to keep his job in the last 7 years+
December 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM ^
I can't believe you said "let Ben Wallace walk." Do you think Joe D should have overpaid him like the Bulls did?
December 14th, 2011 at 7:17 PM ^
I didn't think so at the time, and he was clearly overpaid by Chicago, but with the benefit of hindsight...
What exactly would have been lost by signing him?
December 14th, 2011 at 7:55 PM ^
You mean other than all the money we would have lost by paying him too much? I don't like a lot of what Joe D has done lately, but not overpaying for Ben Wallace is on the list of things he did correctly
December 14th, 2011 at 7:55 PM ^
Joe's biggest fault, as far as I'm concerned, is that he has held onto both the 2004 blueprint and its players for far too long. In hindsight I can tell you that I would have gone nuts if he kept Wallace for that price.
December 14th, 2011 at 8:18 PM ^
Given what's happened in the years since Wallace left, I think it's safe to say that bringing Wallace back would have been a better decision.
It's true they saved (a lot of) money by signing Nazr Mohammed, Chris Webber, and (a few years later) Kwame Brown instead. But what did they use that money for instead? And what could have been if they kept him?
After Ben left they lost to a clearly inferior Cavs team as Lebron went off. Would things have been different with Ben patrolling the interior? Would a $15M/year salary have been worth making the finals that year - I'd say yes. The following year it was the same story - a narrow loss to the Celtics. Could Ben have given the Pistons the extra edge? That one's harder, but I'd like to have another crack at it with a better roster - wouldn't you?
The part that makes it a slam-dunk case is what the Pistons did with the money instead: Besides the relatively cheap contracts for Webber and Mohammed, the the following year, the Pistons used the savings to re-sign Billups to a long term deal, re-sign McDyess, and to give a contract to Amir Johnson. None of those deals worked out. Billups was dumped for Iverson and recently had his contract amnestied. McDyess never got the title he badly wanted. Amir Johnson was jettisoned. Had the budget been tied-up with Wallace, the Pistons might have focused on a more short-term approach or even focused on rebuilding sooner. Instead, we got the long slow decline we got.
December 14th, 2011 at 10:17 PM ^
I don't know if I have ever heard this. In the history of sports. Ben was not worth anywhere near what the Bulls paid him and it wasn't even close. But you are suggesting that the correct move would have been for the Stones to sign him for almost as much, waist a lot of money in the process, so we could suck right away instead of a slow decline? Wow. Just wow. So then Joe did a great thing when he signed Charlie V and Benny G to big contracts because he just wanted us to suck badly so we could rebuild quicker instead of actually signing good players. Amazing.
December 15th, 2011 at 12:02 PM ^
There are instances where 'overpaying' is the right decision. No other team should have paid Wallace that much - but the Pistons, in their situation, yes.
Given what happened, this seems obvious to me. The downside is what? - less money in the inheritance Davidson passed down. The upside is multiple titles.
December 14th, 2011 at 11:51 PM ^
He was signed to replace Memo due to some weird NBA rules. Long term he wasn't as useful, by short term it was a great recovery replacement. You can't blame him for not realizing the bad moves were going to be bad, but then say the good one's were luck.
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<br> Stuckey and Monroe were better than players drafted before them. That's all you can ask with a draft pick.
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<br>And what Joe did with the Billups money was abysmal, but to be able to free up that much cap room was a good move. He just chose to use it on crap rather than convince a big name free agent that a team that lived in the ECFs was just "that guy" away from a ring.
December 15th, 2011 at 12:11 PM ^
The initial intent was for McDyess to be the 3rd big, but he became the 2nd after Ben Wallace left. I was referring to the second McDyess contract, which, depending on how you look at it, could be afforded because they didn't overspend to keep Ben around.
There are a number of players taken after Stuckey who are, arguably, be better players - Afflalo being one of them. Way to early to say on Monroe. I liked both of those picks but these aren't guys who are good enough to build (or re-build) around.
The overall problem is a failure to realize where the franchise is at. A refusal to face the unpleasant business of rebuilding. These moves, in a vacum, may be fine, but for where the Pistons are and where they need to go they are failures.
Cap space is what you make of it. Dumars failed badly with his. The bigger issue is that Billups was an asset that could have been moved for something far more beneficial than Iverson.
December 15th, 2011 at 3:11 PM ^
I'm not sure the upside of Afflalo is as high as Stuckey, but the pain in the ass factor is way lower. But since he drafted them both, he did the right thing, because he could get both. It's like Rodman was a better player than Salley, but Salley wasn't going to be available in round 2 and Rodman was.
Neither are good enough to rebuild around, but you don't get players to rebuild around where those guys are drafted. If you want to make an overall case that the philosophy of not sucking to get a high draft pick you can build around is unsound, you won't get any argument from me. But you originally said he hadn't made ANY good moves, not that his overall job was poor. I even conceded that while there were some good moves, they weren't/aren't particularly impactful.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:53 PM ^
You also have to take into account ownership and willingness to make moves and spend money. I'm not saying he gets a life-time pass. I do think he's smart and I'm on board for him to have a shot to really rebuild with Frank and Gores. Time will tell.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM ^
The ownership situation doesn't explain the lack of moves after Sheed, the poor draft picks, the lack of direction, etc.
Signing Gordon and Villanueva was immediatly and obviously a bad decision and doesn't indicate a restriction on spending.
December 14th, 2011 at 7:25 PM ^
My ass they'll be back. The teams you referenced were put together through proactive methods and a lot of luck. Joe is now content to run a buddy system where he re-signs and refuses to trade his guys because he thinks their futility can be blamed on whoever the previous coach was, who of course Joe D. hired in one his many failures in that endeavor.
Dumars has been every bit as bad since 2008 as he was good before that, probably even more so. If he is allowed to continue (and he probably will because Gores doesn't know shit about basketball), he might very well leave a legacy as the worst GM to ever win a title.
December 15th, 2011 at 12:14 PM ^
Rasheed Wallace was basically handed over on a silver plater. That was an excellent and effective move, but it was an obvious opportunity to take care of.
Since aquiring Ben Wallace, Billups, Prince, and Hamilton the number of impressive moves Dumars has moved is extremely limited for how long he's been around.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:24 PM ^
I can't follow the Pistons. It's just too painful. If only they showed some plan for improvement instead of signing any shoot first guard they can get their hands on.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:25 PM ^
I hope the pistons draft Zack Novak next year.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:53 PM ^
What did Zack ever do to you?
December 14th, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
He *CAN* rebound better than Villanueva or Maxiell...
December 14th, 2011 at 2:27 PM ^
We're stuck in that phase where we suck really bad, yet not bad enough to get the first pick and draft a superstar...pretty much the worst place to be.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:29 PM ^
1.Trade everyone for draft picks (preferably with the T-Wolves)
2.Bottom out
3.????
4.Profit
December 14th, 2011 at 2:40 PM ^
All I know is that if the players turn their back on Lawrence Frank this year, I'll never watch a Piston game again until every player on the roster is gone.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:43 PM ^
That's the way it generally works in the NBA. You don't get anything for being mediocre. Might as well trade what you do have and hope for decent picks or go for broke like the Celtics did.
December 14th, 2011 at 3:41 PM ^
Collect underpants
December 14th, 2011 at 2:33 PM ^
I'd like to see Stuck at the 2 and see Ben Gordon moved.
December 14th, 2011 at 2:38 PM ^
Not a bad option but the Pistons would need to find an outside shooter to go along with him. He is awful from beyond 12 feet.
December 14th, 2011 at 8:39 PM ^
Which is why Gordon is a far better option than Stuckey. Stuckey needs to walk.