Here's the link. Interesting read. Confirms what many on here thought: just tired of Saban's My Way approach.
Peppers at 10, which seems low.
Here's the link. Interesting read. Confirms what many on here thought: just tired of Saban's My Way approach.
Good read. I never really understood why people were so concerned about why he left. He's the same coach either way.
I never really understood either. The article suggests it might just be rivals trying to get into the heads of High Schoolers. If I'm at Ohio or MSU right now, I'm trying to come up with arguments for why a top offensive recruit wouldn't want to go to UM. Anything to dampen the excitement, I guess.
Can you blame them? What other card can they play? This is really bad news for them, plain and simple.
Ohio and little brother trolls, along with media people whose feelings somehow got hurt.
Well lets be honest, they can play the "we actually win football games and compete for/win B1G Championships" card. I wouldn't mind having that card in our hand. Rather than the "look who we hired, look who we recruited" card.
Uh, not to be a Debbie Downer, but -48 yards and -21 yards rushing in back-to-back weeks and the line doesn't appear to be getting much stronger. That ain't all on Borges.
I was waiting for your opinion, because there sure hasn't been a lot of discussion about Borges lately.
The line doesn't appear to be much stronger... for 2014, when none of these potential recruits will see the field or be on a college campus. Once those top OL classes that Hoke signed when he got here mature, the line SHOULD be one of the best in the nation. Combine that with Nussmeier. That's what we should be selling recruits.
Yet a few weeks ago you were all about firing Borges...now it's not about him. Just then, but now it's different?
The fact that we were not successful running the ball was not all on Borges, but the fact that he continually tried to establish the run was all on him.
This guy just comes here to troll.
Of course he's the same coach either way, but the circumstances provide some indication (though small) of how good he'll likely be. By your logic, you wouldn't be more excited about a recruit if he was given 5 stars by rivals than if he was given 3 stars, because he's still the same player. True, but the 5-star ranking indicates that he's likely to be a good player more than the 3-star ranking does. Same logic applies here.
Hah, nice analogy.
Except that we have hard data on Nussmeier's ability to lead successful offenses at the college level, and we have zero data on the ability of high school prospects to contribute to a college team. Your analogy is poor.
I disagree. We have lots of other more-direct data on a high schooler's ability -- recruiting videos, stats, etc. But still, the opinion of a credible source (Rivals), helps tell us how likely he is to be successful. Thus, when we see the Rivals stamp of approval, we consider it more likley that the player is actually good.
Same thing here. We have data that Nuss is a good coordinator -- stats, games won, etc. But the opinion of a credible source (Nick Saban) also gives us information.
We have no data on a high-schoolers ability to play at the college level. We have data of high school performance that we use to project how they might do in college. There are about a hundred different variables that we have no information on, such as how they'll handle a college weight program, how their bodies will naturally deveop, how they adapt to college-level instruction, academics, how quickly they can pick up advanced techniques, etc. This makes the opinion of the evalutor much more significant, and it's not like prospects are downgraded on a whim anyways.
With Nussmeier, he's being asked to do the exact same job that he's done many times in the past with great success. There are far fewer variables and in my opinion the data is much more relevant. If Nick Saban wants to get rid of a guy whose offense was FEI top ten both years he was there in favor of a guy whose offenses have been mediocre since 2005, I would give that very little weight.
I absolutely agree that Saban's opinion matters much, much less than Nuss's track record--that's why I said "though small" in my first post. I was only objecting to your original statement that Saban's opinion is irrelevant--when it's actually not.
Fair enough, though I'd say it's one very small step above irrelevant.
It's one of the most relevant data points we have. The better analogy is valuing a stock. You can pore over financials all you want and analyze the revenue and profits of a company but you're only scratching the surface of the whole story.
Some of the best indicators of a company's future growth come from knowing the management team, being inside the board room, really understanding what the factors for success have been. This is why the best hedge funds and biggest mutual funds want access to the board room (and sometimes cross into the illegal side of information gathering).
There are also many different sucess factors for an offensive coordinator: how good are his position coaches, how much success is due to coaching vs. talent, what are the instiutional advantages he's had. We can look at a guys offensive performance but no one knows better than his coach how much he had to do with that success and how replaceable he is.
You wouldn't want to buy a stock if the CEO was dumping his shares, even if the company has been profitable and growing.
I think Nuss was a solid hire and tend to be right in line with the Mathlete's analysis. But you'd much rather the HC fight tooth and nail to keep a guy than think, eh, he's replaceable. That's why people care.
except Nuss did it at the college level, in a tough conference. High school highlights are of high school kids playing high school football against high school coaches whose experience MIGHT include playing high school football l.
Yeah, I agree, Nuss's track record is a better predictor of Nuss's success than Nick Saban's opinion. But that doesn't make Saban's opinion irrelevant; it still gives us information.
We don't know everything about the guy, and Saban's evaluation of him says says a lot, so if he had been forced out that would indeed be saying something.
That's like saying "I don't care that Rivals downgraded him from a 5 star to a 3 star, and that his scholarship offers were revoked everywhere else; he's the same player."
I care far more about his track record coordinating offenses than I do about Nick Saban's decision on whether or not to keep him or push him out the door in favor of Lane Kiffin.
thinks hiring Lane Kiffin is a good idea. Toxic is spelled K I F F I N.
qualified. The results spoke for themselves. The question was whether a micromanager named Saban forced him out for having his own opinion. We found out now it didn't happen. It doesn't change what AJ McCarron or Alabama's offense did during the year either way.
1. Generates excitement in the offense going into off-season for potential recruits and the program
2. Has similar offensive philosophy so it does not create challenges in personnel needed to execute the gameplans
3. Appears to be a much more active recruiter
4. Everyone is a year older that was in the rotation or the wings on the line
5. May be intelligent enough to stop/adjust to doing dumb things during games
Yeah. For some reason fans like to act like scarred dogs when it comes to positive changes. Like, UM couldn't just get a top-notch OC from a program that he is unhappy at, and that all sides are fine with it.
Either way, I am glad he is here.
When the hot girl in Accounting agrees to go out with you, you don't care if she broke up with her previous rich, athletic, good-looking boyfriend, or he broke up with her.
She's yours now.
If the reason she broke up with him is because he didn't tell her he had herpes.
National Championship or bust!
Can't blame him for wanting to run his offense without having to run everything by Saban first. He can definitely do that here.
The whole "Hoke does not wear a headset" thing that we all bitched about and our rivals made fun of . . . seems to have actually worked in our favor.
Brady Hoke indeed poops gold.
I hope he puts in as many hours here as he did at Alabama.
Having worked for a guy who literally stated he wanted the longest meetings of all his peers, I can say that long hours does not equal better quality work.
From my own experience in both types of environments if I'm going to be held accountable then allow me to create, strategize, implement and execute. If it's meant to be its up to me and I'm all in for all the hours.
But if it's your plan and I'm working myself to death and I don't necessarily think it's the best plan than it makes long hours longer especially in an environment that maybe less than tolerable.
He's going to do what he needs to in order to succeed.
I know this move may have been questioned by some, but this article seems to give a big reason why he moved to Michigan.
- Money is probably equal to what he could get at Alabama
- prestige is similar, or slightly better now at Alabama
but, he gets to run the offense. I think this is big for a young coordinator who may be interested in running his own program. It also probably helps him see two potential successful operations in how they are run.
Also, as the article mentions, family time may have played a part. I know that Al Borges was very appriciative of Hoke's family atmosphere and policies that encouraged coaches to have time with their own and have balance.
It also helps explain away the whole "If Alabama really wanted to keep him, they would have just matched the money Michigan offered him."
It's not just about the money. Given that the money is similar enough, he actually preferred Michigan over Alabama, not the other way around.
I can easily see the appeal of the Michgian job even though some may see it as a step down. He can be his own man, he will make good money, and even though he already has an NC ring, he is in an environment where he can compete for another.
Here he essentially gets to completely run the offense and take a large majority of the credit if it succeeds. At Alabama, he's basically just a Saban underling. Basically you are seeing the difference between a CEO (Hoke) and a dictator (Saban). Dictators can be very successful, but being under them isn't very much fun.
I also read that Saban would be very demanding even during games on certain offensive play calls. I just question how Saban and Kiffin can co-exist if what is said about Saban is true.
I do like the idea of poaching Saban's OC.
Money quote for me: "it was a lateral move. I can't say what exactly reason the was, but Nick is very, very, very, very demanding, not that Brady Hoke is not."
If you've ever worked for a micro-manager like Saban you know just how un-fun that can be. Especially if you have talent and don't necessarily agree with the direction the micro-manager wants to go. On the other hand it would appear that Brady gives his coordinators the freedom to make in-season and in-game decisions but obviously, holds them accountable for the results. This is the part of Hoke that yours truly was quite happily wrong about.
I think I'd like working for Hoke.
Imagine it's a cold dark gloomy early Monday morning. You are headed into work after a long commute. You are still tired from the weekend and dearly wish it was Friday, not Monday.
Who would you rather have greet you at the door as your boss - Saban or Hoke?
can go suck an egg.
and, thanks for the link.
This was the money quote:
I guarantee, Nick Saban doesn't do anything that will in any way embarrass him or anybody on his staff," he said. "If Lane Kiffin had been brought in in an undercover role to pick out a desk before [Nussmeier] left, nobody would have known Lane Kiffin was in town."
That's a new one.
Shits given about this particular subject still hovering close to zero.
That said, this is a good article and much more than mere click-bait. Good thread.
"They would have stashed him (Kiffin) in Alabama in some Motel 6. He would not have been front and center for people to see him in the football complex. That's not Nick Saban's style."
It is as I had imagined then and coordinator and assistant life under Nick Saban is basically like a John Le Carre novel, except perhaps without the threat of an Eastern bloc nation wanting you out of the picture.
How do you "hide" links like that in the text?
Use the link button.
Type some stuff:
Drag the mouse over the word or word you want to have appear as a link. In this case, I shall use "stuff".
Click on the "Links" button, which will be up there ^^^^ in the "Reply" dialog box.
Paste the URL into the URL Box. I also like to click on the "Target" tab and select "New Window (_blank), which will force the link to open in it's own window/tab.
Optional, but I like to do it. Click "Switch to plain text editor" and put Underline Tags just before the <a> and right after the </a> tags, thusly: <u><a> voila, link will be underlined </a></u>. Underlining the link makes it easier to see - less "hidden". If hiding it is your goal, omit the Underline Tags.
This is also detailed in justingoblue's Pretty Posts Sticky
My way approach?
Looks to be about as tall as Saban too.
Thread is gonna be how Hoke and Co. don't work enough hours and that's why we suck. Lol
Hoke is the best coach since Bo Schembechler. I love the man. His players and coaches do, too. This program is finally steady and the proverbial cupboard is stocked. Let some of the good ripen, and we will have a hell of a team.
That is some positivity. Where do I sign?
It may be a tad early to put Hoke above Carr and Moeller.
I love Lloyd Carr like an uncle. I think he's one of the very best coaches to ever have come through the program. He is my coaching ideal. I want to kiss him.
But I think Brady Hoke can be better.
But can be, and is, are very different things. I agree that he can/could be/become a better coach than Carr or Moeller, but I don't think he's there yet. Not even close. They were both good game theory coaches, and in game coaches as well as leaders of men.
I like Brady Hoke a lot, I really do, but some of his in game management (clock, and use of timeouts mostly, but also turtling before the EOH) has been a bit lacking IMO. Those are all things that can be fixed over time and with experience, and I really hope he does. We could have a rampaging beast of a program if he works out those issue, and keeps a top notch staff (which I think we're getting close to, but not quite there yet).
Sorry he has to win some big 10 championships first.
You're right, of course. But I'll be damned if I allow Mickey Mouse shit like truth, reason, or logic get in the way of my optimism.
Brady Hoke is Bear Bryant, he's Bo Schembechler, he's from their cloth. Urban Meyer is a conqueror? No, Brady Hoke is Alexander. He's the most brutal and the most vicious coach there's ever been. There's no one can match him. His PR is impetuous, his defense is impregnable, he's ferocious, he wants your heart, he wants to eat your children!
I like Hoke
maybe not all the children
All of your children for sure.
*few will get that reference.
that Hoke will chew the players' ears off if they under perform?
Is Balas credible on any topic?
Does anybody know where to find Washington game film when he was the OC? I ask this because although I believe he will bring some principles from the Alabama offense, I believe the better indicator of the offense we are going to run will look more akin to the Washington offense he was running.
Not entire game film, but I saw some highlights on youtube.
As Brian said in the podcast, Nuss is a guy that will scheme based on what will work for the personnel he has.
Agreed. I watched this clip:
You see a little fullback, a bubble screen, some wildcat and a deep completion.
I watched the clip of the Holiday bowl vs. Nebraska and they had Locker doing zone read and running.
Who you going to believe? These connected Alabama sources or the highly-respected RCMB?
This makes sense. I was one of those people who questioned why he came here. I wondered if it was Brandon or Hoke, still do a little who made it happen I couldn't understand why he took a lateral position at a lesser football factory (sorry but in the past 10 years it ain't even close). Myself and others wondered if he was brought here by Brandon as a coach in waiting. This article makes that less likely. He still could be, but it makes sense now why he wanted out. Still a little surprised he didn't take a head coaching job, but who knows there could be many reasons for that decision.
To me, this article makes the hire even better. Now we just need to pray that he stays for 3 years, at least.
Hiring Nuss as OC looks better every day. Things are looking up!
Nussmeier is good enought to be a HC today. We will be lucky to keep him for one season.
This just made the hiring that much better...good to know. I definitely buy that he wasn't forced out, Nuss is too good of a OC and recruiter to be "let go"
Somebody better tell Valenti.
...but someone really should mention it.
Just not me, because I'd punch him in the face knowing I had hundreds of thousands of Michigan fans who support me 110%.
I am excited about the hire too. However, we do not know which way this will go. I know I have read on here from a couple of posts that Nuss has not had full control over the offense at either of his last two coaching jobs. Therefore, I am wondering how confident we can be that he will come here and be able to be in full control. I am not saying he is incapable. I am only saying that this makes me a little nervous that he has not had full control over an offense and will here. I am excited about the proven track record for teaching quarterbacks.
Someone should post this on RCMB. They're convinced that Michigan isn't an elite program and that Nussmeier must have been forced out because no coach would make a move to Michigan voluntarily.
We have to show it on the field. As much as it pains me to say it, for now MSU is the elite program.
Michigan is 1-1 in the last 2 versus this "once in 25 years Rose Bowl team".
I'm confident going forward. Very confident.
won the World Series. Doesn't make them "elite" and able to look down their noses at the Yankees history of winning.
Sparty will regress to the mean, which is a downward trend. Michigan will regress to the mean, which is up.
They have been to two BIG championship games already. Had back to back 10+ wins and 13 wins this year. They are elite as far as BIG is concerned. Of course, things can change very quickly and do hope UM will contribute mightly to bringing about that change.
I'm beginning to think MassBlue is actually a Sparty troll.
The posts celebrating Sparty are eerily consistent and always around this concept and what could only be the worst self loathing of a Michigan fan.
Now I hope the stupid bitching about Hoke's lack of a headset will end. He lets his coordinatorss do their thing. That's his thing. They can come here and make their careers or cut their throat. Which means we will get young coordinators who are confident enough in their ability to come here and test their mettle. They might not stay for but a few years, but oh well. That just means they were successful.
Borges cut his throat - because Hoke let him. Other guys will make their careers, because Hoke will let them.
As one who bitched about Hoke's lack of a headset on offense, I believed that if you are going to take a corporate hands off approach with your coordinators, then you damn well better hire outstanding coordiantors and hold them accountable for their results.
And it turns out that is exactly what Hoke did. Bitching is formally withdrawn.
Just win, baby.
The Nicktator, indeed.
As I said numerous times. Hoke with no headset iz a big selling point to big time offensive coordinators. He's going to encounter the polar opposite of what his work environment at Alabama.
Hoke might not have a head set, but Brandon does.
Anyone can spin this story however you like. And it goes both ways. Why not stay with Saban, do his bidding, increase job cred, get head coaching gig and then $$$$$. Or say to hell with it. Leave for UM in the same job? Makes no sense.
Nuss did a good job at everyone of his stops. Smoker and Stanton were one of the only bright spots on JLS' teams.
along these lines. Having the head coach questioning every call you make would get old even with success. Especially for someone with head coaching aspirations, he wants to RUN his own offense. Hoke will allow him to do that. He gives them the flexibility with the expectation of results
Saban not comfortable with anyone with even remote successor capability around his program. Kiffin will take years to rehab his image to be in that position, and while he is at it, he can recruit the bejeezus out of it and is unlikely to screw up the offense with Saban hovering over him constantly.
Sounds paranoid. But, Saban.
wouldn't care if he was.
most of these baseless speculations on why Nussmeier was available for Michigan to hire. In the end, who gives a rat's ass why Michigan was able to hire hime? His entire track record is one of success. For once, people should just think this is something really good for all parties instead of jumping on the Hate Train. Thanks to the OP for this useful article.
All it is, is speculation man. Who gives a shit. I can start some speculation right now if I waned too. +2 for you though!!
Totally doesn't matter either way, given that Saban was his boss. I've had my share of bosses who were both very successful and impossible to work for, not just for me but for anyone under them. Happens all the time, and leaving isn't a reflection of performance. It's the damn media again.
Creates the story for "sources" and runs with it? I'm shocked!
Doug Nussmeier coordinated David Letterman's move to CBS.
"Hey, I'm going to scream at the millionaire linebacker to motivate him".
Just because you win a few big ten championships doesn't make you elite. Coaches aren't lining up to go to Stanford over USC or Vanderbilt over Tennessee based off of a few years of success. MSU is the same way and will have a very hard time replacing Dantonio. Michigan has the money of an elite program and the prestige based off decades of winning. The past 5 years doesn't change that.
are aware of the story about Nick sending the LSU plane back to EL to get assistants and it coming back to Baton Rouge with no coaches on board.
The following may sound "cool story bro" or "my sister's best friend's boss at work is a member at the same golf club as so-and-so" but I'd like to share, anyway.
A few years back I was visiting a football coaching staff that shall remain nameless during the spring after Nick went to LSU. There was a coach on that staff who said, "Nick wanted me to join him down there and I told him, 'Nick, I'm one of the best friends you have in coaching, but you're an absolute prick to work for. I'm staying put, thanks.' "
regrets this now.. ha.
"Last year the coach brought the University of Oklahoma staff to Tuscaloosa to go over stuff after winning the national championship," he said.
What did Paul Finebaum say when he poked his head up from under Nicks desk?