The game thread was about 97% ref griping.
this may be of some local interest
The game thread was about 97% ref griping.
no they were bad..but we still had a shot to win and didnt succeed. cant blame the refs for missing free throws, open threes, or the last shot
I agree with the whole we had a chance to win thing, but missed fts? We were 10-11. Duke shot 25 FTs to our 11. I think there is a leg to stand on if you wanna gripe about that. I think with competent reffing we most definitely win the game today. That said, there is no point to gripe about the officiating because that would take attention away from how much heart and effort the fellas showed today, and that heart and effort is what makes me proud to be a Michigan fan.
sorry, i guess it felt like we missed more haha
Dude we are not gonna sound like little brother right now and bitch about the refs. We had the finally shot of the game to tie or win the game and we failed to execute. Nothing on morris for that he makes it 9 out of 10 just happened to be the one miss that one time. You should give an applause to this teams hard work and effort this season to get somewhere where they weren't predicted to be. In the end hats off to the 2010-2011 University of Michigan Men's Basketball team. You played your ass off. Thanks for everything!!! GO BLUE!!!!
I understand the gripe but the refs were pretty consistent with how they called it. I feel like they just favored the more aggressive play. How many times did you see UM going to the hole (when it wasn't a wide open dunk)?
I agree, but there was a short strech (end of 1st) where it seemed calls were a tad bit ridiculous. But the refs have a hell of job on their hands and certainly shouldn't be to blame. Then again, alcohol and watching the game in a room full of OSU fans talking about Tressel really being "a good guy" and "covering up for someone else" may have to the increased frustration.
UM was much more aggressive at attacking the basket today. what game were you watching? who the hell attacked the basket for duke today? answer - no one. (singler a few times and their bigs got a few offensive putbacks). they took 20 3s and probably another 15-20 mid-range jumpers.
most of the fouls on us came 20 ft away from the basket. yet, duke was constantly handchecking us outside the arc with no calls. and i can remember about a half a dozen shots by morris and morgan who got "bodied" on a drive with no call.
i expected lopsided officiating playing duke in NC, but not this bad. and to say we got the benefit of a few bad calls on duke, we did, ignores all the no calls they should have had.
I usually don't bitch because bad refs go both ways. But I thought with the style of defense Duke played they had an officiating advantage. The hands checks and arm bars were never called. I wish they has called a closer game and I think we got more than our fair share of ticky tack fouls.
Loved the effort just would have liked to see a more evenly officiated game. I was not impressed by anything Duke did, but they do have some great athletes and a really deep team.
I agree. While they were ticky tacky fouls, for smotz, at some point he has to say, "ok, they are calling this light blocking a foul" and stop doing it.
smot and morgan commit too many fouls away from the basket.
but i don't think the officiating was that bad on fouls called. it's the fact that duke got away with a lot more no calls; especially on morris and morgan shots in the paint. that's the main gripe i had today.
you should see the twitters, they were aflame!
nothing worse than I expected...
Unfortunately, me neither...
I feel like Duke is consistently the beneficiary of the officiating, one way or the other. Watch youtube for videos of them getting phantom calls.
That said, Mich had a chance at the end and that is all we can ask for I suppose. Thanks to this team for being such a pleasant surprise!
The refs may have been bad but they were consistently bad, and in a sport that is as hard to call as basketball that's all you can ask for. They didn't effect the outcome of the game that much as they made bad calls for both teams.
but i give the team even more credit for battling back and having a chance to win at the end. what an effort. simply amazing to me.
i saw that bastard reffing a game the other day. i can't believe he's allowed to ref important ncaa tourny games. he's the worst. yes, even worse than hightower and burr.
Ha the refs were terrible. Especially for the first 30 minutes. The last 10 minutes they seemed to get a little bit better, but not by much.
dont be that guy. this was a well officiated game, and about ten times more even than a typical duke game. i can remember one out of bounds play that i couldnt believe they gave to us, and we got a bunch of 50-50 calls, especially in the beginning of the game. at the end our guys got tired from dealing with the press all day, and they comitted some legit fouls
not to mention the fact that they just gave beilein a warning when they could have teed him up
If the guys getting paid to cover sports for a living not on CBS (which doesn't hide its Duke love) said that M was getting the short end of the stick in a poorly officiated game, I think for you to say that it was a well officiated game is ignorant. Also the Beilein warning was bull, because Coach K was talkin just as much crap, and in the ears of the officials just as much
even alla abdulnabe (sp?) a former duke admitted they benefited from the "home cooking" by the refs. his words.
Right. So everyone who says it was fair is in the bag for duke, but anyone who doesnt is non-partisan? FYI, there is a LOT more anti-duke sentiment out there than pro
If there is a significant group even on a homer site like this saying it was fair, then it probably was.
I thnk not knowing you are a homer is ignorant. On that topic, what kind of credentials do you have to be calling people ignorant?
right above yours. if a former duke player admits they received "home cooking" from the refs, i think you can take it to the bank that they did.
goes to the line more than their opponents because they put themselves in a position to do so. Seeing the fouls rack up is hard to watch, but not because the refs are giving anything to them. They are in the right spot faster than their opponent, thus, foul.
Duke played a fucking great game and they beat us head up.
I hated the way they called the game but I thought they were pretty consistent especially considering we were playing Dook.
I dont think it was well officiated but I wouldn't say it favored either side. Twice I thought the ball clearly went out of bounds off our guy but we got posession.
Michigan committed a ton of stupid fouls.
I thought that the refs were a little too partisan at the start, but at the end they just let the two teams play. I've seen some really bad Duke-ist refs, but these guys weren't horrible. Duke won because they were a bit better; let's not bitch and moan about it.
Michigan lost by two and lost at least ten potential points of differential in terrible calls. The refs weren't the only reason Michigan lost the game, but it is ignorant and short-sighted to ignore the effect they did have on the game.
The "old school" may say, "don't bitch about the refs," but the new school says refs, just like players, should be held accountable for their actions, and that their "contributions" to either team should be acknowledeged as part of the final analysis.
In the case of Duke, they have gotten away with "Duke Defense" for 20 years now. It's about time the refs made them play on a level court.
I will say that Duke does get away with a lot of fouls, but mostly because of the style they play rather than the name on the jersey. If you're aggressive from the very start (hand checking, bodying up on the perimeter, etc.), refs either have to call it immediately or let you get away with it all game. Usually Duke gets away with it because refs aren't eager to blow a lot of early wistles on "nickel and dime" fouls. It's up to offense to force the issue early in games. You have to attack quickly and at the defenders shoulders, before they have time to get set. Create a couple quick fouls on perimiter defense and you're more likely to get later calls and get the defense to be slightly softer in general.
I'm not saying that Duke doesn't get away with stuff, but the B1G has the same type of physical teams. Duke attacked all day, and they were "rewarded" if you will. That doesn't mean it is consistent or fair, but UM knows that is how Duke plays and they need to take advantage of it where they can. Remember, this was a team that beat UT by 30 with only 1 foul shot. That tells me this team settled for jumpers more often than not, and thus didn't press the refs to make tough decisions that could have led to foul shots. So while Duke does get some calls it shouldn't, UM probably left a couple on the court as well.
in the end the refs didnt keep Michigan from hitting open threes. No need to get worked up over something that is irrelevant at this point. Enjoy the great season.
it was a basketball game
I think the refs were fair, just that they called a tighter game than most Big Ten refs do. That in itself is advantage Duke since they are more aggressive off the dribble and got a lot of free points off of it. Outside of Darius Morris we don't have anyone who can take advantage of the way the refs were calling the game.
There is no such thing as Big Ten refs. There are NCAA officials.
consitently...maybe they got away with hand checks, and ticky tack calls went against us
but we were holding jerseys and quite a few of the tick tack calls were fouls...they called it that way against duke too
I was in both bitch fests over reffing against Ohio State but I thought this game was fair. Calls made on both sides, some were meh calls but at least they seemed to be evenly distributed meh calls.
I thought the officiating was awful. 11 free throw attempts to Duke's 25 should tell the tale. The refs have to swallow the whistles and let the kids play. Call the hard fouls and let the touch fouls go. Make sure the game doesn't get out of hand but don't control the tempo of the game by calling a foul every time a Michigan kid makes contact with a Duke one. I wanted to throw my remote through the TV.
The whole free throw count thing is a bullshit argument. It always has been when the teams do different things. Dook had at least three guys focused on dribble penetration and we had one. That's where your differential is. You aren't going to get calls when your guys are mostly just hanging out at the three point line unless the lane is wide open.
It wasn't awful but it was called tight. The whole 25 fts to 11 ft thing is dumb. Michigan lives on the 3 point line. Go back and look at past box scores. They shoot the least amount of FTs in the big ten. And no they dont get bad refs every game. Hell look at the last game. Their style is the cause.
Now I ref varsity basketball and I have said this a millions of times on here. You guys really dont have a clue. Hate me if you want but if you joined up and did High school ball instead of bitching about it you would know what I was talking about. The refs were consistent all game with calling it tight. Michigans guys like Evan,morris and Tim just cant move their feet as well to stay in front of the Duke players. Thus fouls were called when their hips are bodies made contact.
It wasn't that bad. Stop taking away from how well the team played today and accept we lost by two points to the former champs.
1. UM attempted only one more 3 than duke today.
2. morris, hardaway and morgan attacked the basket every bit as much as singler, irving and smith.
3. i have no problem with the fouls that were called. it's the fouls that weren't called when we drove to the basket and some of the blatant handchecking.
were attacking the hole pretty much the entire game. Hardaway, on the other hand, didn't really get into the flow of things until the later part of the second half. It would have been nice to see him do that for the whole game. Would have made a big difference.
You're right about officiating and our normal imbalance in FTs, but in a consistently tightly called game, doesn't Singler get called for his arm over Novak's shoulder on his last rebound? Doesn't Morris get a couple more calls on drives like Smith and Irving got? Doesn't Irving get a charge in the first half? And how about the call at the end of the first half in a full-on scrum?
Being more aggressive from the start should never be a 40 minute advantage. If you're allowed to hand check and arm bar the whole game because you did it at the beginning, then it goes both ways - not a benefit for doing it first.
Duke's not faster, they don't move their feet better. They use their hands and arms to buy time to move their feet - thus an unfair advantage. Fouls are supposed to be called when an advantage is gained - Duke does it for 40 minutes and gets lauded as being 'aggressive'. I've played basketball my whole life, and that's B.S.
Good teams fight through the ebb and flow of a game, great teams fight through all adversity. Since the losses at Illinois and Wisconsin, these kids showed how close they are to great. Today, they were a runner for OT or a kick-out for 3 away from great. We're in for a treat over the coming years.
about basketball rules. But I will say that using the "So and so got more fouls than us, thus the reffing was lopsided and horrible" argument is a disgrace. It actually is possible for one team to play significantly more or less dirty than the other, surprise of the century I know. If Michigan had the 25 free throws and Duke had 11 who here would be complaining? Bitch about officiating all you want. I'm all for giving it to the refs when they suck, they're never going to get better if they think they're doing well, or at least that they aren't getting caught doing it poorly. But have a real argument. Don't just bring up the number of fouls (free throws, penalty minutes, penalty yards, whatever it is, I don't care) being uneven and use that as your basis for judging the refs, because that means nothing and it just plain stupid.
There must be some kind of massive amnesia on the boards, because two days ago Tennessee had 16 free throw attempts to Michigan's *1*... and no one complained about the refs in that game.
The refs didn't screw Michigan in this one. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than I expected for playing Duke in Charlotte. Traditionally people point to Duke players drawing offensive fouls/charges more than guys in other uniforms probably would in the same situation. Today the only two plays that came to mind were when Morris pushed off Smith while bringing the ball up court (questionable no-call that went our way) and the charge that Novak committed (definitely the right call; Duke guy had position).
Whining about the refs does a huge disservice to our team's performance. Duke had a size and talent advantage at virtually every position, but for the last 10 minutes of the game I saw All-Grit-tastics outplay All-Americans and Beilein completely outcoach TEH GRE4TEST COACH EVAR, BROUGHT TO YOU BY AMERICAN EXPRESS.
it's hard to call a foul on Tenn when they didn't even guard anyone, especially in the 2nd half.
that argument is that Duke shot 20 threes as well. There wasn't that much of difference between the two teams, in terms of the amount of times they attacked the basket or shot an outside shot. Duke was not agressively attacking the basket on alot of their possessions either and was settling for a lot of outside shots. Basically the two teams shot an almost indentical percentage, the difference was the free throws.
I have no problem if people want to complain about the officiating in this game. The bias for Duke wasn't as pronounced as it is normally is, but it was still there to some extent. The foul trouble for our guys was pretty significant, Singler was the only Duke player in foul trouble. I saw alot of handchecking on the perimeter that was being called on UM, but being let go when I saw it occur on the other end.
With that said the better team did win, and it doesn't take away from the great effort by UM to make the game close.
it seems like you and i are the only two that saw the game this way. too many go to the "old fall back" by saying "of course duke will get more FTs because all we do is shoot 3s". We attacked the basket every bit as much as duke today.
Attacking the lane isn't the only way to draw fouls. Duke got calls becuase they were bigger and would get the rebound with the smaller Morgan going over the back. I think his first two fouls came this way.
but attacking the basket is obviously the most effective way to draw fouls. of course their are other ways to draw fouls, but they are minimal. it's like saying there are other ways to score points in football without getting a TD.
yes, UM relies on the 3, but that wasn't the issue today. UM's 3 pt shooting rate was less than duke's today.
again, i'm not complaining about the fouls that were called today. i'm complaining about the fouls that were not called - on duke.
Because they weren't.
If you look at the 4 factors for winning: Michigan outshot Duke and handled the ball much better. Duke outrebounded Michigan. Now, going into the game Michigan was 36th in the country in not giving up free throws and Duke was only 195th at getting to the line. The final of the 4 factors to winning is free throw rate. Duke shot free throws on 51% of their possessions. Michigan did on just 20.8%. Even without watching the game, you could look at those numbers and guess that something was probably up.
Also, a tweet from during the game:
Belein has been warned by official Ed Corbett to calm down. He's done a bunch of Big East and ACC games. #JustSayin
Now, going into the game Michigan was 36th in the country in not giving up free throws and Duke was only 195th at getting to the line
You need to remember that Duke played 85% of the season without Kyrie Irving. He's extremely quick and it's hard to stay in front of him without fouling. He shot 10 FTs today. If he'd played all season, their team FT rate obviously would have been a lot higher.
Duke got away with handchecking all day and went through stretches where they got a foul every time we breathed on them.
It would have been a lot worse if Duke had made more FTs in the first half.
The fact is basketball refereeing is consistently atrocious and taking it too seriously will always be difficult because of this.
And downright awful since last night. Today we also have the NC-Washington fiasco, and the lopsided end sequence in the Arizona-Texas game. They've completely put their stamp on the game rather than letting players decide it.
Sign up and start doing High School games. You'll learn a ton about the game and understand thats refs couldn't give a shit who wins.
To be able to see incompetence anymore than I need to play Arena Football to see when someone in the NFL is having a bad game.
No one said they were slanting the game towards one team. They are just getting more involved in the games than they should be, deciding games on a whistle rather than a players actions. And oft doing it inequitably (inconsistently), and lately, incompetently.
Yeah so when they dont call something and theirs contact and everyone bitches too. Ref will and never can win. Someones always pissed.
I recognize that refs have a job that basically can't make them look good. Basketball is a tough game to officiate and people tend to remember being "slighted" much more than they remember the mistakes that go in their favor.
Really, my only consistent beef with refs is when they insert their personality into a game or situation. Ted Valentine is the perfect example. The best ref should be the one you don't notice or couldn't pick out if he walked past you ten minutes after the game. The show boating and getting in players faces is just unprofessional and immature. Call what you see, keep your mouth shut, and be above the fray. That's what I consider a good ref.
When John Beilein gets a warning from the refs and it one point has to calm the bench down as they were reacting pretty dramatically to the bad calls, it was pretty bad. So far in this tournament they have impacted far too many games. Even worse yet is the head of officials half time interview. He offers up little to no explanation of the calls and comes of as a bit of a douche.
It wasn't that bad. Stop crying.
It was bad for both teams. Too many whistles in my opinion, I would rather them let the players play for the most part. I realize this is the nature of the beast and don't blame officiating for a loss.
maybe so. but that shouldn't be the performance rating. this is the frickin NCAA tournament. the games should be officiated fairly and competently. and they aren't, in general. the slightest slant toward one team can impact the outcome of the game, like today.
Once again they dont care who wins. They dont slant calls. You think we all sit around throw tarts at a block M before the Duke vs Michigan game? My cousin does Big Ten football and he can't give two shits who wins. His Dad was a UM grad and during the Illinois vs Michigan game he wasn't trying to find ways to screw Illinois out of first downs.
We are freaking people. Mistakes will be made. They called a tight game today and they did from start to finish. What the fuck do you want?
irrelevant point. you are clueless if you don't think coack K, dean smith, bobby knight, etc got the benefit of calls during their career over their opponents. it doesn't mean the refs want them to win, it's just a fact of life.
you could say the same thing about individual players too. you don't think guys like kobe, lebron, bird, jordan, etc got the benefit of calls over the likes of craig ehlo? or ted williams, wade boggs, albert pujols, etc getting the calls over some 5th starter?
of course. it doesn't make it right though.
It's not that necessarily there are that many slanting the games to one team (though I could make a nice short list of NBA guys who have proven otherwise), but mostly it's not a conscious slant. That latest study that Sports Illustrated covered said almost all factors in home court advantage were statistically nil.....except for the home team getting a significant amount of the calls going their way. Referee intimidation? Going along with the majority? There's probably different psychology behind it, but it's there. We were playing in Duke's backyard. And as you say, certain coaches and programs get the benefit of the doubt. And it's more than just being good. Sometimes it's because the coach intimidates refs (Bobby Knight, Coach K), sometimes it's the image. But refs slant calls all the time. Just not for the "HAHA I HAVE MONEY ON THE GAME" reason.
hmmm.. why is it that this shit always happens with Duke?
The zebras sucked. There were blatant fouls on us all game long that they failed to call. Either they were home cooking, or they're blind and should do something else.
You have to hit your shots, and we didn't.
They will grow from this and hopefully build some pride in being "Michigan" basketball.
from the field. Explain to me how that isn't hitting your shots? Michigan shot just as well as Duke did in the game.
It mostly sucked both ways. Both teams were getting some pretty weak foul calls, and honestly I believe that's the main reason we got into such a hole in the first place. I think we can beat Duke anytime and anyplace under normal circumstances, but if you start pushing the foul count that high, we're not going to win the bench battle with Duke. We're still some amount of sustained success away from being able to match up with a program like Duke's from the top AND bottom.
we will probably never again match up with duke from 1-10 on the depth chart. so we have to have better coaching. and i think we do.
Xs and Os-wise, i don't know of a better coach in the country. hopefully, we can build off the success this year and land a top PF or C in the next class. We will then be a BIG (or even national) champ contender for years to come.
I am 100% with you, Ziff - I was also on madia blackout an just finished the game - damn great game, but the refs sucked. It wasn't even the fact that they appeared to favor Duke (which they did) - it was that they called every single ticky-tack foul, which served to (1) slow down a great game, and (2) favor DUke, because Duke took it to the hole more.
Still, amazing effort by our guys - I am so pumped for next year.
All I ask for is fucking equality. Treat us the same as you treat them. We didn't get it. I'm not saying it was the difference in the game, but come on man.
Yeah, equality would be nice, but it's Duke. They always get the officiating edge, they always will get the officiating edge, and you know that going in. Part of beating Duke is overcoming that.
I didn't think the officiating was that bad. Pretty much every foul call on us legitimately was a foul. Smotrycz, in particular, still needs to get better at defending with his feet and not his hands. If you want to point to one thing that got us beat, it was shaky defensive rebounding.
The refs let Duke's big men shove our guys under the basket, which basically is B1G style reffing. What I got upset about was that it seemed like every time duke needed a bucket to stem our momentum, they just dribbled right into our guys and got the call. That's not B1G reffing. I thought the refs were consistent, but the style of game they called suited duke's game better than ours. At least we got to the free throw line today, unlike against UT where we only shot 1. If that 3 pointer before half had gone in, I think we would have won today. One shot. But I can't complain about taking duke down to the wire. What an effort by an incredible group of guys.
If you want to point to one play that cost us, it was Novak failing to pull in that defensive rebound with one minute remaining. We would have had the ball down 70-69. But he knocked it out of bounds, giving Duke a new possession. They not only burned another 30 seconds or so, but Irving then scored to put them up by three.
OMG some bad defense and crappy rebounding had something to do with our loss and its not all on the devils in stripes?
It's confirmation bias. Lots of people went into the game expecting Duke to get all the calls, and when some individual calls/no-calls were missed by the officials - which is inevitable in any game - that just reinforced their opinions.
Call things somewhat one-sided. However, you need to be better than the officials. Beilein has preached this all year. Today was no different.
I was at the game and from the stands, the refs looked horrible. There were a couple times where our players were simply fighting for the ball and they called a foul (McLimans at end of half). Not saying that's why we lost, but I think the whole Michigan section at the game could agree that the refs were pretty bad.
and yes I think Duke uses the start of the game to see how the refs are going to call it. The used fullcourt pressure and grabbed and handchecked our guys ... but the refes didn't call anything, so then they knew how to play. It's not a bad strategy and if the refs would have called fouls at the onset, Duke would have changed their style.
Where I have an issue is the total lack of a travel call against Duke on 2 very obvious incidents. The first when their big man drug his pivot foot across the lane looking for help (1st half) and the 2nd when Irving took 4 steps on the way to the basket late in the game (he was called for a charge - but c'mon 4 steps ?).
Fouls are hard to call and Duke gets more than their share of "anticipated" ones. Like when Smith drove left down the lane (during his 2 min rampage) and was untouched yet a foul was called. This was followed by Kelly getting a rebound putback with another horrible call by a ref whose view was totally blocked by 3 players. (these equate to the imaginary holding calls in football !)
However, McLimans foul with .01 left in the half was a foul ... just bad timing. In the end we gave Duke everything they could handle ... just really wish that last shot was a 3 to win, somehow having the last shot of the game in the air to beat Duke would have been incredible.
Go Blue !
Bitching about the refs even when true just sounds bad. Everyone saw it and knows it, so move on.
My biggest complaint was the announcing. Why couldn't we have Gus Johnson and Len Elmore for the game? I have enjoyed every game they've done in the tournament. As a bonus, Gus likes Michigan.
The horrid announcing was the salt in the wound that made it sting 1000x worse.