is a wonderful, wonderful thing
Recruiting and a Hoke/Mattison vision of what a Michigan defense is
See Thomas, Dymonte
I also believe Gedeon's nickname is 'The Freak'. So that has to count for something.
Ben Gedeon's nickname at Hudson is indeed "The Freak."
i like it
Too much piping.
I kind of disagree, at least based off what I've heard on our recruits from the various recruiting services.
Gedeon plays running back
Dymonte is supposed to be kind of a freak athlete
Taco Charlton also seems to fall into freak athlete type of category
James Ross is known for his speed and decisiveness
For every big CB we've recruited a tiny one to go with
Doesn't one of our incoming DTs play running back also?
I see lots of speed/athleticism in the future...
Maurice Hurst plays running back
Well if you're interpretation of their vision turns out to be true, then I will be very sad. The coaches better be recruiting speed as well as size, as you need both to be elite. I in no way want to become a team where opponents say how 'physical' we are but we don't win many of those games because they have that little extra elite speed. That would be depressing. We need both, and I think the coaches are doing a decent job at recruiting both, but time will tell if that turns out to be true.
See the Michigan teams that got gashed by various spread offenses. We have the ability to pull in guys that have both size and speed, and I believe we are doing just that. Ondre Pipkins is a prime example.
One thing Hoke and Mattison "get" is the rilvary with Ohio State. Just like Bo built his teams to be able to beat Ohio State, Hoke will be well aware of what he needs to do to beat Urban Meyer's spread offense.
It won't be enough to shut down the Wisconsin's of the B1G if Ohio State runs wild like Oregon. Hoke and Mattison know that they have to recruit players that can play in space as well as be physical at the point of attack.
An Optimus prime example
An Optimus Prime example?
Jourdan Lewis, Dymonte Thomas, Willie Henry, and James Ross all have pretty good speed for their positions.
And so do Pipkins, Hurst, Poole, Clark, Ojemudia, Taylor and T-Rich.
has henry seen the field yet?
No, and neither has Godin or Strobel, then Wormley is out with an ACL
thanks i searched the site for willie henry references and wasn't sure if he'd stepped in the rotation when ash went down.
I was generalizing for sure. However, I don't know about Willie Henry's speed since he put on so much weight.
Love James Ross but he looks so tiny out there. Credit to Ross that he can be so effective when he is so undersized as a freshman. I've seen Ross jump on guys backs to tackle them, he won't be resorting to that after a couple of years of strength and conditioning.
I made this a while ago, but never quite got around to inserting it into a diary or any kind, but it seems useful here for purposes of spotting potential trends. It separates the average size of the current team's sophomores through seniors, the 2012 freshmen, and the current 2013 recruits by position group on defense. Keep in mind, of course, that the incoming 2013 class still has some growing to do yet, or I would think so anyway. Still, as others have mentioned, looking at some of the metrics on Rivals, many of the 2013 recruits on defense have great athletic ability and decent speed, or better than one may think in these position groups. In many cases, we're getting bigger, but not necessarily slower.
|AVG HEIGHT (INCHES)||AVG WEIGHT|
|Defensive Back (SO-SR)||71.7||188.6|
|Defensive Back 2012||73.3||191.3|
|Defensive Back 2013||72.2||169.8|
|Defensive End (SO-SR)||75.3||243.3|
|Defensive End 2012||77.0||243.3|
|Defensive End 2013||78.0||249.0|
|Defensive Tackle (SO-SR)||75.7||288.0|
|Defensive Tackle 2012||75.7||288.3|
|Defensive Tackle 2013||75.0||282.5|
of Michigan players with that of incoming recruits? Or are these weights of current Michigan players when they were in high school as well? Just curious if you were factoring in the Michigan weight room.
These were taken from the most current data available in late August actually, right before the season started, so it is sophomores through seniors right now essentially, freshmen as of that moment, and the 2013 class from what was available then.
But I'm confused. You list heights and weights, and then assert none of these guys have "speed" or "freak athletic ability". That sounds pretty subjective unless you're trying to say that big = slow, which is not necessarily the case. You could pull the "fake" 40 times if you want, but we all know those are suspect data..
Being both big AND fast is what makes you elite. Generally speaking, our recruiting ranks are saying that's what these kids are.
For instance, here's Bama's depth chart:
Only 2 DBs in all of the 2-deep are less than 6'0", and they're both listed at 5'11".
The "smallest" linebacker is CJ Mosley @ 6'2", 232. (Of course upperclassmen should generally be heavier as they add good weight in college).
does Charlton show any more promise than Ojemudia at this point?
"they are all physical kids but not freak athletes"
All big time D-1 football players are freak athletes.
Stand next to one and you will find that out pretty quickly.
Yeah, I think you're a little mistaken here Gordie. A good numbr of our defensive players coming in are very good athletes. All of the DTs you list have been praised for their athleticism, all four of them.
Don't assume that because the LBs are bigger, it means they're not elite athletes. Obviously RJS is. But Gedeon, McCray and Ferns are all extremely athletic. Ferns is a track star at 235, fergodsakes.
As people have said, Dymonte Thomas is about as good of an athlete as you'll see, and a number of those other DBs are dangerous weapons on offense as well.
As far as the defensive ends, a number of those guys will be SDE/3-tech types, so they aren't speed guys. But both Wormley and Strobel are very good athletes for their size, and if Charlton and Ojemudia aren't athletic then nobody is.
I like how our D is being recruited. Ideally you want guys who are both big and fast, but for those who aren't, you an even split of speedsters and thumpers.
When I read your post I felt like I was having an internal argument with myself
/My name is Gordie too.
//Cool story bro
If I may add on to this post (which I 100% agree with), the main thing that I love about our recruiting is the versatility in the front 7 guys. McCray, Gedeon, Ferns, Poggi, Godin, Taco, Mario, RJS, and our DT's can all play multiple positions which will give us a ridiculous amount of flexibility on D so no matter what type of offense we play or game situation we find ourselves in we can put ourselves in a great position to succeed. Not to mention the fact that our depth will allow us to keep everybody as fresh as possible. Given the cordinators and players we're bringing in, this defense is going to be terrifying in years to come (especially if we can land guys like McDowell and J. Peppers). I can't wait until these guys are ready to roll, depending on how our DB's pan out this could potentially be BETTER than the 97 defense due to it's depth and versatility. Of course not every guy will pan out but the potential is just astounding.
Hoke & Mattison understand that to be an "elite defense" there has to be a blend of size and speed, and that is what they're recruiting for. It's a delicate balance, especially, but I think that they know what they're looking for, and they'll get it.
To me, what is most remarkable, is the progress that the Team 132 and 133's defenses make from week to week. I am really looking forward to seeing a Mattison lead defense in which every player on the defense has only known Coach Mattison as their DC, and the majority are "elite" recruits. That is when the Michigan defense is going to among the top 5 in the nation every year. Right now, DC Mattison is doing the best with what he has -- a mix of young elite players, older mid-range players, and some who if not for depth issues, wouldn't be getting any playing time at Michigan. I love the fact that he feel personally responsible for their individual and collective development, and knows that if they work hard, and are given the best coaching possible, they can become a very good defense.
by the lack of speed assertation? I see no 40 ot shuttle times. Nor do I see a size / weight comparison to Bama.
I personally was surprised by how big and fast Bama seemed. Especially at DB. Are you suggesting Bama can recruit big fast athletes but Michigan can't?
I thought speedy LBers was exactly what we were getting in that whole group.
People have gotten caught up a lot in comparing recruiting styles on offense and that has merit, but in what I've seen, we've been recruiting the same big, fast guys on D all along, as well as (trying) to recruit some big WRs and big enough RBs.
I'm missing your point i guess. I looked at that list again and aside from a "40 time" here and there that big time athletes are exactly what we're getting. Dymonte anyone? Lewis had a high 40 time recently but that kid is very fast with pads and a helmet on.
I'd like to see a comparison to another roster with other guys who are noticeably faster/ more athletic than these guys.
I know this isn't a direct response to the recruiting aspect, but I always took "a Michigan Defense" to mean an unquantifiable, inspirational, and normally unreachable standard that preaches Hoke and Mattison's values for how Michigan should play on that side of the ball - competitive, tough, proud, resilient, disciplined - and acts as a motivational tactic for any defensive player.
In corporate speak, I guess I see playing as "a Michigan Defense" as the Vision Statement that the defensive performance should always be striving for but can almost never quite achieve* - it encompasses the values of what makes a defense great (as so many past Michigan Defenses have been), rather than listing the defense's mission (the goal this week is allowing only x number of points, making x number of sacks, creating x number of takeaways).
Whether you're Jordan Kovacs or Charlie Zeller, Mattison and Hoke have done a great job of instilling the mindset that each player needs to do their job in making this defensive unit a Michigan Defense each Saturday. This is because being considered one is the highest honor and ability that you could possibly achieve. It's a lofty goal to be sure.
*Mattison's proclamation after the unit's performance in last year's Illinois game, notwithstanding
In 97 when the defense lead the team to a national championship.
I don't think the coaches would've said, even in 97, they had a "perfect" defense.
have a great defense. One or two of them can help, but it's not necessary. I'd rather have a D made of super-tough, disciplined, smart guys who all play as a team and follow a superior defensive strategy set up by excellent coaches. Mattison, Hoke, and staff are well on their way to building this (IMO).
That's what I was thinking when I saw the reference to "freak athletes." If your definition of a freak athlete is Charles Woodson, then there are probably less then 5 of those in each class, so you're not going to have an entire team of them. Much of what made Woodson such a freak was pure instinct though, and it's hard to identify that in high school athletes because the game speed is so different. I could argue that many of the players in the top 100 and some outside are "freak athletes." It just depends on how strictly you define the term. I really like the guys Hoke has gotten, and I'd say considering several of the guys we've recruited for defense are lighting it up on offense this year that they could be called freak athletes. From the limited exposure we've gotten, Dymonte is the guy I'm most excited about in this mold. I think he's very underrated.
i feel like this post could have been much more concise if the OP would have just said, see Baltimore Ravens.
can I ask why? He did some research and came up with a conclusion based off his research. There seem to be problems with his method and possibly his conclusion, but isn't that better stated in the comments with an OP like this?
I feel like all the negging of posts based on personal observations leads to less posts of this kind, and I don't think that's a good thing.
I have no idea whether or not the OP’s assertions are correct but I can tell you that I gained no new insight from this post.
That's a good (and fair) observation, I think.
I'm on Mgoblog and I assume many here are familiar with our recruits, and if you're not, then I'm not here to inform you. I was merely listing the recruits and included their size and weight.
I often hear coaches talk about team speed and the need to get faster. I never hear this from Hoke, so while speed is essential, it is not the primary factor when the M coaches talk about the team or recruiting. I find this interesting, certainly could do a better job of expressing myself, but it's Friday, so, whatever.
The coaches prefer to talk about "technique". A player with good technique plays fast.
Agreed. IMHO, nobody should be able to neg unless they make a comment asserting their reasons for the neg. No drive-by negging, in other words.
Not to go all track coach on you, but you do realize all the cass DB's can fly right? We are talking 10.7-8 speed from all of them. They have speed.
Conley has nearly unstopable at WR for Massilon Washington. I have yet to hear anyone say speed is an issue for him. Blake is a good athlete all-around. Speed and athleticism don't seem to be a problem at corner.
Not really sure what your point in all of this is?
I hate Notre Dame.
The corners are broken down into 3 groups. Field, boundary, and slot corners. You keep saying we don't have breakout speed in our recruits (which isn't true) like it's a bad thing (which it also necessarily isn't.) If you look at our DB's you'll see 9 of them have sub 4.5 40 times reported. Jourdan Lewis is listed at 4.40 flat, Ross Douglass at 4.41, Raymon Taylor at 4.43, Jeremy Clark at 4.47, Blake Countess at 4.47, Dymonte Thomas at 4.48, ect. I know all 40 times are suspect, but I don't know where you're getting that they are lacking in speed. Mario Ojemudia, Taco Charleton, Maurice Hurst, Ben Gedeon, and others are extremely fast and freaky athletic for their position, too.
while Hoke/Mattison may not be explicitly stating that they're seeking speed, they're getting elite players that have it. The pretty obvious upgrade in talent that's in the pipeline will trump any (at this point unverifiable) decline in team speed.
I am not saying there is a decline in team speed. I find it interesting this staff doesn't prioritize speed in and of itself as a virtue like many seem to do. For example, I will use somebody no longer on the team, DJ Williamson, he was mostly recruited because he was a track star and could run real fast. This staff never seems to go down that road, offensively or defensively.
For the record, I love what Hoke is doing with defensive recruiting, and think in two years time, M will regularly field a NC contending caliber defense on a regular basis.
Terry Richardson is certainly a very fast player and so is Dymonte from everything I've read! I would say the DB speed will be fine!
DBs and LBs are plenty fast. Where I am most excited is that the front 5 (nt, 3tech, 5tech, wde and Sam) all appear to be both big and fast. This is where the SEC has separated themselves lately and we appear to be catching up in terms of our recruiting up there. Guys like Ondre Pipkens, Willie Henry, Tom Stroble, Maurice Hurst, Poggi etc. will be hard for offenses to stop.
I hate Notre Dame
Strong front four that generates plenty of pass rush. One guy spends most of the game in the opponent's backfield. Opponents struggle to break 3 YPC.
Linebackers that react quickly, fill the holes, swarm, and hit hard. When they blitz, they drive it home. LBs lead the team in tackles.
Defensive backs that can handle man and zone coverage. Strong safety that hits with authority.
Defense gets offended when the opponent scores. Points against per game < 10.
Smart and disciplined. Make the right read and get to the ball quickly. Need for speed isn't critical if you are headed in the right direction at the snap.
Big plays don't happen.
At least 8 guys on ball every play.
Don't care what the guys look like, but those are the attributes. Refer to 1976 (5 shutouts) and 1997 defenses as examples.
Just as important as speed is reaction time. I think we're recruiting some solid athletes, but also a lot of celebral players.
What? Keith Heitzman wasn't recruited by Mattison.
He said Hoke/Mattison?
/s on Heitzman? IIRC he committed at the end right after Hoke took over. However, Desmond Morgan committed to the RR staff before they left.
I read this post and instantly recalled the debate scene in Billy Madison. Or maybe you would prefer the student assembly trial in animal house. Pick your poison