Reality and the Offensive Line
At some point, does reality have to set in regarding the oline? Being the least productive--or close to least--in the country over a span of ten or so games with these highly-ranked recruits?
I know that this issue has been parsed by knowledgeable people here (but maybe not in one concentrated debate like I would like to invite here, now). I accept that Funk had a serious shitstorm to deal with, including attrition, recruiting failures, and three different systems over four-five years. I also know that there is evidence of incremental improvement.
Is that enough to explain the ineptitude? Maybe it is? Tell me. Or can we point to other schools and their experiences and say--yes, but it ought to be a hell of a lot better than this? At what point is it completely legitimate to say, sorry but that can no longer be our excuse. Yesterday? Now? Over the next few games? Next year?
EDIT: I am interested in the way some things get accepted as truth around here. A lot of people are responding that the oline did well Saturday and that our problems go well beyond. I accept that they go beyond, but our backs averaged 2.5 yards a run Saturday. How is that acceptable? Looking forward (sort of) to the UFR to make better sense of this.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:06 AM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
September 9th, 2014 at 10:39 AM ^
Their is not one position group that is demonstrating progress so far.
- d backs- worst group on the team
- running backs- still can't find holes
- QB- doing nothing to spark team
- receivers- less physical than the diminutive duo of Gallon and Dileo
- special teams- help?
- d line- slow and soft
- LBs - still can't cover
I won't go into coaching
This is way more than the O line
September 9th, 2014 at 10:41 AM ^
I, for one, thougth the offensive line performed adequately. Wasn't great, but wasn't the reason we got smoked either. I was inebriated for the game though, so, it's possible I am way off.
September 9th, 2014 at 10:50 AM ^
The offensive line play was not nearly as bad as anticipated watching the game live (it started cracking in the 4th quarter after the game was decided). The line actually did pretty well, although I expect Glasgow to get dinged the worst in Brian's UFR. In fact, Cole may have been our best lineman on Saturday. I think Nussmeier needs to rethink his offensive strategy with this team. The offensive as a unit is simply too inconsistent (experience or talent?) to go on sustained 15 play drives against a team like Notre Dame. In fact, our first drive of the game, that only went about 40 yards, took ten plays. Another 10 play drive in the third quarter also went for roughly 40 yards. A 10 play drive should extended further than 40 yards. Maybe the game plan was devised to purposefully protect the O-Line, but in any event it was clearly too conservative and didn't amount to less turnovers than a more aggressive game plan would likely have yielded.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:02 AM ^
we needed to take advantage of Gardner more.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:12 AM ^
While I'm all for big plays, who do we have on offense that scares a defense down the field or can make a big play in open space? Other than Funchess?
ND jumped every throw to Darboh and Chesson and didn't play the run nearly as aggressively as they had in years past against us. Do you see anyone on the roster who can release that pressure? Maybe a guy like Peppers when he comes back, but this staff refuses to expect anything from freshmen (USC has two guys practicing both ways in Juju Smith and Adoree Jackson) so I don't see that happening. Maybe Canteen? Hayes?
Not great options, but probably some guys who should see the field more than Green/Darboh/Chesson as the season goes on.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:07 PM ^
...when we swapped Borges for Nussmeier?
A Borges offense is as high-variance as it gets. It lives off the medium-to-deep passing game, gets more than its share of big plays and more than its share of three-and-outs.
Nussmeier moves the chains--he's looking for the next first down. Mathlete ran a piece on this right after the hire. He's after a consistent string of 5-12 yard gains, Borges is willing to swap some -1's for the occasional home run.
In general Nussmeier's approach seems better suited to a team with better personnel than its opponents, and that's supposed to be Michigan most of the time. But giving up variance works both ways.
September 9th, 2014 at 10:53 AM ^
Yes, last year's OL was bad. This year they might - might - be servicable. They won't have a chance at being good till next year. You can thank the (IIRC) 2010 and 2011 OL recruiting, which gave us 3 OL recruits, total, and two had to quit due to injury and the other (Posada) quit after showing up on campus fat and out of shape.
I can't wait for the next 5000 threads on this, I'm sure the 4983rd will be a gem.
September 9th, 2014 at 10:59 AM ^
I might have a new insight about the O-Line over breakfast on Thursday and want to discuss it with like-minded Michigan fans. Or I might want to retract some earlier statement I made on the subject. That's what the community is for - ongoing discussion and sharing of ideas.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:03 AM ^
Sure, but at some point it just gets to be a bit much, yeah?
September 9th, 2014 at 11:05 AM ^
Yours? Where do we cut off freedom of speech?
September 9th, 2014 at 11:09 AM ^
Yes, I am totally advocating supression of the 1st amendment. Totally.
Actually I was just thinking that having official discussion threads for each position group would cut down on the number of redundant discussions. I will suggest this to the mods.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:13 AM ^
I'm sorry you seem to be defensive about it. I see plenty of useful information in the MGoBoard sidebar, with no overload of redundant threads. So, carry on.
September 9th, 2014 at 11:44 AM ^
I hate your post and refuse to read all the comments.
The OL is improving significantly.
- They're not there yet. Mediocrity is the goal this year.
- ND's offense is pretty good, and was underestimated by many, including me.
- 2015 has always been the time when we would have experience and talent on the OL and be good to go. Brian said this 3 stinking years ago (I wish I could find it.) Nothing has changed.
- The injuries to Taylor and to Peppers hurt more than the OL play. Oh, and Wile's field goal woes.
Call me an ostrich. Tell me my head is in the sand. But I do not blame this on Funk, or Hoke, or Nuss. I really don't blame it on Borges. It is taking time to build up our OL. With time, strength, skill, and experience, our OL will be good again. They'll even be passable this year. Just not good enough against the likes of ND and several other teams.
We are going to struggle against MSU & OSU. We could win every other game, including a bowl, and some people would still want Hoke and Funk to be fired, because we failed on the road against our three biggest rivals. That is crap, and will set Michigan further back yet again.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:13 PM ^
That is disgusting. Try to imagine our former coach saying/thinking/accepting that going into a fourth season at Michigan (one he didn't even get). Or maybe Jim Harbaugh saying it going into his fourth year at Stanford. He did inherit a winless team, so you can't have any expectations like being one of the top-5 teams in the country just four years later.
Gross.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:32 PM ^
I agree with your sentiment, but how on earth can you try to sell that bait and switch? Kass said mediocrity is the goal. You made it sound like Michigan's coach did. That's terrible.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:39 PM ^
Wording could have been better, certainly. Obviously Hoke didn't say that and almost certainly doesn't think it. But whether he said it or not, he's the one producing it, and anybody swallowing it at this point is out of his/her mind. The other coaching examples were just to show how ridiculous it is for anyone to be making excuses at this point.
I'm one of like two people on this blog who still thinks firing Rich Rodriguez was a horrible idea, and I would have bought his bus ticket back to West Virginia if he came back for year 4 and got beat 31-0 in South Bend. The fact that some people still refuse to hold this staff accountable for anything is revolting.
September 9th, 2014 at 1:37 PM ^
I don't think those people exist. Everyone is holding the staff responsible for the massacre. I'm as pro-Hoke as anyone, and even I realize that Saturday was a game changer. People are trying to figure out how to move forward, what to expect, what should happen after the season if there is no improvement, how much improvement does Hoke need, etc.
Before the Horror, I would have shot you for speaking ill of Lloyd Carr. But some games change that. I think we are there for most people. But I don't think the people who want to see how the season plays out (it's been two games for Pete's sake) are revolting.
September 10th, 2014 at 12:11 PM ^
Look, I don't want to settle for mediocrity at all. The goal is to continue to improve and get better all year, and to be great by next year. Just look at the depth chart: we will have EVERY SINGLE CURRENT STARTER back next year, and all but Glasgow and Miller the year after. I think they will do well, but they're still learning, and won't dominate this year. They won't blow a gifted DL off the line regularly. They won't create huge holes every game. They won't successfully pull, etc. As Space Coyote has said, OL is extremely difficult. All the starters are getting experience. And don't forget, there are 8 guys currently on the roster learning the ropes. (Kalis, Bosch, Dawson, Tuley-Tillman, Bars, Samuelson, Bushell-Beatty, Fox.) Even if half those guys flame out, some of them are going to get it, and get more playing time next year and the year after.
It simply is unrealistic to expect the OL to be able to regularly manhandle the likes of Sheldon Day.
Another thing: at least next year, we'll have Isaac at RB, if neither Green nor Smith really pan out. And Weber, if he enrolls early, might also be decent. I blame some of the running woes on the RB corps, not on the OL.
I don't know what kind of business you are in, but very few large organizations can improve to "excellent" from "poor" immediately.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:33 PM ^
Mediocrity is the goal around here now. People see the team struggle and the overwheliming response is "but football is hard guys, it's not fair to say they are doing a bad job, i'm sure they are trying super hard, they just need more time, like, how about 4 more years. That might be enough time but we have to see and make sure nothing bad happens that would make it even harder to be good at football"
September 9th, 2014 at 2:02 PM ^
who answered in careful fashion. Kudos! Agree that firing Hoke could set the program back once again--or the talent could finally be mature to a degree that the next coach steps in and wins big, partly in thanks to a caretaker Hoke. Or we could retain Hoke and retain mediocrity. Any of these remains a possibility, in my view.
I don't think I was tipping my hand regarding my own position on these at all, except in the followup where I noted that if Funk were really so terrible he would likely have been gone last year.
September 10th, 2014 at 2:31 PM ^
I think we probably agree on a bunch of things.
- I do believe the OL is doing better, and isn't the problem.
- I do believe that the OL will mature, and be pretty good to quite good . . . in 2015.
- I do believe that for whatever reason, Hoke and crew are doing an EXCELLENT job of recruiting. If we have a good year, and recruiting finishes well this year, and is on a par or better next year, well, I think that will pay huge dividends.
- I do believe that firing everyone on the coaching staff and starting fresh would be disastrous, and really set Michigan back.
What I don't know is Hoke's ceiling. My HOPE is that Hoke stays, and reaps the benefits, and is here at Michigan a long time. It is possible that with Hoke, we have a ceiling of mediocrity. But I think the jury is still out. At the very least, we need to get through this season. If we get through this season somewhere between 8 - 4 and 10 -2, we have next season, which will really nail down Hoke's legacy. At least that's what I think.
September 9th, 2014 at 1:45 PM ^
Thanks for contributing in a civilized manner.
September 9th, 2014 at 12:33 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 12:36 PM ^
Can anyone give ND some fucking credit here? We sound like fucking Sparty. ND played a great game. Michigan didn't. ND has great personnel and they are using a 21st century offense.
Maybe it's time to congratulate them and move on.
September 9th, 2014 at 1:07 PM ^
I do not understand. Isn't everyone still running draw plays on 3rd and 9?
September 9th, 2014 at 1:31 PM ^
in two very different directions.
September 9th, 2014 at 2:07 PM ^
they arent Bama but they are acceptable. Hoke still does not want to pass to set up the run which would help this youngish o-line immensly. He continues to pound runs when they stack the box and loaths going deep to funchess as a normal play. Hokes SYSTEM doesnt fit the players we have now. He wants to run to set up the pass. well guess what our WR are close to elite with one VERY elite one. our running backs and oline are only serviceable. Gardner in big games nowadays is playing too conservative let him throw down field get a feel for the game. dont wait till were down 14 then say oh yea gardner now you can be you but remember NOW a mistake is DOUBLY bad. He gets overwhelmed with that. The games where they open him up and let him rip from play ONE he does well. (i.e. ND last year, OSU last year Minnesota two years ago) Let him play his game. hes never going to be a tom brady/manning type that gets the right check downs and doesnt make a mistake. Play to his strengths and the teams strengths. The passing game will open up our servicable run game.. But no hoke is a running team and thats that... Personally ive supported hoke but im sick of the positions they keep putting these kids in.. weve got a 4 deep of recievers that could play on every big 10 team right now. and we hardly used them until we were down 21-0. even then it was dinky dunk crap. the only thing this o-line needs to work on is mental. false starts and holdings etc need to come down but for a young o-line in south bend they did fine. it is the system that fails these kids not the kids failing
September 9th, 2014 at 2:10 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:03 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 7:55 PM ^
Interceptions. Turnovers.
September 9th, 2014 at 9:55 PM ^
No one here who is willing to continue to give this staff and this team time to improve has mediocrity as a goal for this team or this program. NO ONE! As one of those people I simply believe that expecting a realtively young team with a brand new offense and a highly revamped defense not to struggle is unrealistic. I am decidedly unhappy about the way the game went but I also believe that this frenzy to dismantle the staff is very premature.
I also consider the Hole's 4th year argument to be both disingenuous and a deliberate smoke screen. Even if we all ignore the impact of changing the OC and the defensive scheme, Hoke's fourth year ends at the end of this season NOT following game two. It would be very helpful if we could all agree to wait to discuss the results of Hoke's 4th year until it's actually in the books.
My goal for this team is to win the Big Ten championship and compete for and eventually win the NC. My goal for this program is to do both of those things on a regular basis. I happen to believe that rebuilding a program to accomplish these things is not easy and that, while there are sound reasons for concern, it's way to early to give up on Hoke and his staff. I also believe that churning this program with a head coaching change (which will cost us Mattison and almost certainly Nussmeier) at this point is madness.
The roster hole was recognized here on this board by our most knowledgeable contributors following the Sugar Bowl win. They warned us that the 2012 team might be better but produce a poorer record and that 2013 faced daunting roster problems. They warned us to be prepared to stay the course while the program was rebuilt.
There is a lot of football yet to be played this season. If the team can manage 8-10 wins this year and show enough improvement to set the stage for a dominant 2015 season then I'll accept that outcome. NOT because I think that 8-10 regular season wins is good enough, but because I believe that is a step perhaps a necessary step to a Big Ten championshiip in 2015. Further should this team manage 10 regular season wins, that level of improvement is hardly the result of mediocrity. That level of improvement is a major step forward.
So, in the interest of reducing the level of vitriol on this board, I sincerely request that people drop the "mediocirty is a goal" rant.
September 10th, 2014 at 4:41 PM ^
You articulated this much better than I did. I do NOT believe that mediocrity is the goal. I simply believe that Michigan is in the process of improving, and we won't really see this until 2015. Gutting the coaching staff, removing Hoke, would be disastrous, and possibly put Michigan in a worse place than it has EVER been. Thanks for your well written post.
September 10th, 2014 at 6:26 PM ^
If Michigan ends up hiring John Harbaugh, I can definitely see Mattison and Nussmeier staying. John Harbaugh's background is special teams and DBs, and he and Mattison go way back.