Subs fever is nationwide.
"No disrespect to Steve Fisher, but I think the Fab Five would have actually won a title if we had Coach Beilein." - Ray Jackson
Subs fever is nationwide.
"No disrespect to Steve Fisher, but I think the Fab Five would have actually won a title if we had Coach Beilein." - Ray Jackson
You are disrespecting.
But he's entitled to his own opinion!
He can have the upmost respect for Fisher, but believes Bielien is a better coach or would have gotten better results. That can be said and meant without any disrespect what so ever.
It's the same thing as "no offense, but..."
I may or may not have been guilty of using this "I totally intend to offend" wind-up in the past.
"I may be wrong, but....."
I was at a dinner last month and had a chance to speak to Gene Keady for about ten minutes. We talked Michigan basketball as much as Purdue basketball. I had to laugh when he said, "Can you believe what Fisher is doing at San Diego State? He must have hired some good assistants because when I coached against him he had tons of talent but didn't have a clue what he was doing."
he learned a little as his career went on.
I really don't think Gene Keady can talk much here. He had the best player in the country for two years and a pretty impressive supporting cast and did not make a Final Four. Pot v. Kettle.
And no Final Fours to show. I think Fisher did pretty good with two Final Fours and an Elite Eight in his first five years as HC. I don't even think it's Pot v. Kettle. Fish is a good coach. And I doubt any coach outside of Dean Smith could have handled all that talent and attitude.
I concur..I think...Only because that Duke team was very good and could beat anyone on any given night and i tend to think Fisher also could have won that game but we just didnt play our best game.. And the same for the UNC loss, just didnt play our best game and im not sure the coach was to blame
actually coached his ass off in the UNC National Title Game. He went to Pelinka really early when it was clear that the team was not in a grove and also designed some really good plays late to get us back in it, two of them involving Ray Jackson actually. If Ray Jackson gets his left football behind the 3 point line with about a minute to go that ball game is tied. He also switched Jimmy onto Donald Williams and quited him down after he went ham for a good portion of the first half. Kentucky was a coaching gem as well against a legend.
I was thinking the same thing watching the game. He really got off the hook because of the timeout. Fisher coached well that entire tournament, especially in the Final Four.
Even though Fisher's dad gets credit for the suggestion, he ultimately was the one who decided to start the Fab Five together.
People never give Fisher credit for that 1989 team, but I think Fisher did more coaching on that team than he gets credit. Frieder was known for putting the team together and letting his assistant handle much of the coaching. His substitution pattern in the Sweet 16 against UNC was masterful. He substituted regularly and used his TO's to keep the team fresh and prevent any UNC runs...something they did not do the two previous years they got bounced from the tourney by that school. End result was we had a fresher team that closed out the game.
Fisher is perfect for SDSU. He did a good job here. That said, I think Ray is right. When the Fab 5 were here, as I recall, Fisher mostly rolled out the ball and let them play. It wasn't a bad strategy given the talent they had, but Beilein has shown that he can get the most out of his players--whether or not highly athletic.
The real question is, "How would mini-Beilein do against the Jordan/Pipkins Bulls?"
there isn't anyone better than Beilein. You're right about Fisher. . . he let them play and allowed the chemistry to take over. . .
Since when is Pipkins a two sport athlete, let alone the time traveling?
You have your hypotheticals, I have mine.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I think Beilein is a better coach than Fisher (and that's not to say Fish isn't good), but to hear him say it . . . wow.
Jackson got better every year he was here, although perhaps he could have become a more consistent 3-point shooter under Beilein. But the guy who I think could have really benefitted from Beilein was Jimmy King, who had the raw talent but didn't become the complete player he could have.
With all due respect that makes about sense whale and a dolphin getting it on.
They're both mammals...
Technically they can produce an infertile hybrid offspring, a wholphin.
Change that. It actually is the case of a rare fertile offspring when a male false killer whale and a female Atlantic bottle nose dolphin mate. The last case of a wholphin born in captivity actually was fertile and has given birth to three calfs. One of which is still living.
A (non-false) killer whale is a type of dolphin.
always thought i was the only one checking out the wikipedia "hybrid animal" page
worst kind of mammal there is.
worst kind of mammal there is.
Also known as a LOLphin.
That's good enough for Sparty!
Well, if Izzo had been their coach, they wouldn't have won it all, but they'd have had a crackerjack list of excuses to explain why.
Someone help me out here, how do you inbed Youtube?
Oh, did you mean embed? Not sure.
I'm not so sure Beilein would've recruited all five of them...given the personal profile of the type of player he prefers to have on the team...
It's possible, but I bet he gets Jalen, Juwan and Webber. Jalen and Webber were the top two in-state players, and were top-10 nationally. Any coach would have recruited them. And Juwan was another top-top guy in our backyward who was high in Michigan early and committed early. I'd bet we'd have that trio.
James Young was a 2013 from Rochester (MI) was #11 overall and Michigan and MSU both stayed away from him I believe. Not suggesting Jalen and Chris are the same, but Beilein has shown that he'll pass on super-blue chips in favor of his type of players that he's scouted out himself
Beilein I whink would have landed Eric Montross the previous recruiting class, sending Chris and/or Juwann elsewhere (Webber and Howard have said as much). I suspect Webber and Rose may have been a near-package deal.
I don't think Beilein would have sacrificed his integrity to hire Perry Watson, who most people back then thought "delivered" Rose and Webber to Michigan. This would have kept Watson's "friend" Ed Martin from having a presence at Michigan.
I agree to a point because i think Coach Beilein would have them ready to play. The fab five cruised through the regular season half caring and then let their "nuts hang" every ncaa tourney. They where one of the most fun and exciting teams to watch and if you have never seen any of their games, you should really watch them.
He may be right who knows. My hope is that unlike last year we don't have to hear the fab fives thoughts on everything and what seats they will be in for every game will Webber show up can Webber show up. They were a very special team who did amazing things. But this is a special team as well who has the potential to do them one better and win the title. Thats what I want to hear about.
In this context he apparently believes Fisher isn't due any respect.
come on man...These historical "what ifs" are a pile of crap.
Your avatar makes me want beer everytime I see it. Aaaaaand now I'm drinking beer.
Glad to have a positive influence on you!
This tastes bad to me.
Watching games, college and pro, from the 80s to early 90s, I don't recall any coaches that fully took in the import of the three point shot. It took time for that to sink in to coaching strategy and for players to develop that skill. In the old days there were a handful of three point specialists (and there are still players like that today), but now many players focus on the 3 point shot. Much of Beilein's strategy is to shoot the 3 or get a layup. He is not the only coach to approach it that way, but he is very good at it. Was he doing this 20 years ago? What was his style then, and would it have made a difference? Would he have known what to do with Chris Webber in the post? I am not sure Beilien knew what to do with a good post player 5 years ago. It is too easy to impose today's experience on 1993. Having said that, it certainly would have been interesting, but I don't believe we could have beaten that Duke team as freshman. North Carolina? Yes.
Point on Fisher. The BTN show on the 1989 team suggested that Frieder was not an x's and o's guy (explains the enormous waste of talent), and that an immediate change Fisher made was to use Terry Mills in the post. Fisher did a lot of good things.
I seem to recall Mount Saint Mary's crushing us with threes more than twenty years ago.
And I agree with you, no way that group beats Duke with any coach (except possibly Coach K), but they could run with UNC.
I think you mean Loyola Marymount.
Or Little Sisters of the Poor, whoever. I stand corrected. Didn't they put 100 on us? I'm too lazy to look it up.
In 1990-1991 his LeMoyne team made 198 threes on the season to their opponents' 136; in 1991-1992 it was 184-133.
That was in about 30 games each year, so it's only 20-25% fewer than Michigan's hit this year. He integrated the three into his offense pretty early.
John Beilein could take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his. The elite of the elite. A no brainer for Big Ten Coach of the Year.
— Jon Rothstein (@JonRothstein) March 5, 2014
That might be true but I don't know why he would disrespect Fish like that. They could have won a championship under him as well if one play had gone a different way. Additionally, I don't know that the Fab Five guys would've bought into Beilein's system. In fact, I really doubt they would have.
I have a hard time imagining all of those guys agreeing to buy into Coach Beilein's program. Michigan certainly seems from afar to be a lot more buttoned up than they used to be...Also, Steve Fisher was and is a very good coach. I remember when people marveled at the interim Fisher as he matched Dean Smith move-for-move in the 1989 tournament.
Are we more buttoned-up now than we were back then? I guess so . . . but then again, how many times have our guys flashed the "three goggles" or done the "big balls" sign? I mean, Nik may well be the biggest shit-talker in the B1G right now.
I think basketball culture has changed, so some of that is taken as less of an afront that it would have been in the past. I also think the Fab Five - as I list below - did some things that were more directly disrespectful to other teams (deservedly or not).
the Wolverines are more buttoned up? It's not even close. For a few years the rumor was that Beilein couldn't get along with his stars (Morris and Harris). JB is a tough coach who demands things be done his way. I don't think if Jalen and the gang were looking for a place to "shock the world" they would have chosen Ann Arbor.
Why wouldn't they buy into it? The Fab Five weren't some uncoachable nightmare. They were very unselfish, and wanted to win more than anything. Why wouldn't they want to be part of an offense that ranks among the national leaders in efficiency?
The main sticking point I could see would be having two posts, but Beilein was going to do some of that this season if McGary hadn't gotten hurt. Beilein's a flexible guy who will adapt his system to fit his personnel. Webber actually could have thrived in Beilein's system with his passing ability.
The Fab Five more-or-less got away with talking trash at other team's benches and pretending to wipe their butts on MSU's midcourt logo. I don't see that meshing well with Coach Beilein.
Talking trash at other team's benches?
Have you watched Nik after he hits a 3?
He gives looks and does his three fingers sign. However, I remember Jalen Rose - and I loved this at the time - having a series of fairly long trash-talking conversations with Iowa's bench in a game in Iowa City. It was more than just "I made a three." ...And let's not forget about the butt whiping incident (which, again, MSU may have had coming).
The butt-wiping thing I'll grant you - that most likely wouldn't have happened. But Beilein will let some stuff go. As far as allowing on-court behavior goes, he's closer to the Fisher end of the spectrum than the Bobby Knight end.
(Now, when it comes to off-court stuff, that's another story...)
I see Beilein as being about halfway between Fisher and Knight, but I think our discussion ultimately highlights the absurdity of this kind of stuff. Webber, Rose, Howard, Jackson, and King both perceived and were perceived through the realities of the early 90s. Is Jackson imagining them playing for Coach Beilein now? Is he imagining Coach Beilein coaching them in the early 90s? Would the players or coach be different in different eras? Who is where - and when - and who are/were they then/now?
Could the fab 5 win a championship? Even with Beilein as coach, these guys are 40 now... way past their prime.
I seem to remember that occurring after a long evening of "Jalen Can't Read" jeers (to which JR pointed to the scoreboard at the end of the game and said "I can read that") and coin-throwing at our players.
Sparty definitely had it coming.
He was probably talking about the Big Ten title.
Chris Webber's passing skills would have been perfect for Coach Beilein's system.
with a couple of athletic wings who can shoot the three. Imagine having to pick between:
1. Doubling Webber and leaving Stauskas/LeVert/Irvin open at the arc, or
2. Having any big man in today's college game defend Webber one-on-one
Heartburn. Sure would be nice to get a VHT big man on the team, maybe we'll get one in the 2015 class.
but I totally agree with him. IF he could reign the talent in, a little bit.
If Lew Alcindor and Lebron had come to Michigan ...
And if Kevin Garnett, who many believed was headed to Ann Arbor, came here, Brian Ellerbe may have won a natty.
KG was in the recruiting class of '95. Ellerbe became the interim coach in the fall of '97. They probably wouldn't have overlapped.
A piece on Lost Lettermen had be thinking he would have been a sophomore on the '97-98 Ellerbe team that won the NIT. http://www.lostlettermen.com/article/6-21-2011-high-school-stars-college-what-if
But as is typically the case, MGoPosters are more trustworthy sources. You, sir, are absolutely correct - he was drafted in '95 so I doubt he was considering Michigan in '96 like the piece says.
The segment of the show where Ray Jackson speaks is here - (LINK). Hopefully, the embedded link works. Ray Jackson kicks in at the 2:37 mark or so.
They start off by asking Jackson how he felt watching his former team win the outright Big Ten title, and I like what he said right off the bat about how Illinois was a team they never lost to when he was there and he was happy to see that continue.
Anyway, the Beilein stuff is in there too. I thought I would post it if people wanted the full segment.
If illinois continues to be....well....illinois, Michigan will take the series record.
With Michigan currently having won 6 straight in the series, the record is now 77-85.
Really Ray? Well its moot because Beilein ptobably wouldve recruited others and/or I doubt youd have played for him until now. Glad that you have love for Beilein but the truth is what it is. That youre basking in his glory right now.
Why can't he bask in Beilein's glory? He's a Michigan alum like a lot of us.
Why? Well because he is indirectly dissing a great coach in Fisher, and its hypocritcal .
1. Punctuation is always a good thing.
2. It seems like Ray Jackson is just acknowledging that Beilein is a great coach rather than "basking in his glory."
...and if the Fab Five had Stauskus and Burke they may have won.......
But no coach is ever going to go around saying that sort of thing (well. with the possible exception of Tom Izzo).
I made this comment a year ago, and now the thought is back.
Any fear that Coach B is going to be stolen by one of the "bigger" hoops programs with bigger budgets?
Not necessarily at the end of this year. But, at some point, Coach K has to call it quits. Ditto Roy @ UNC. More near-term, UCLA continues to suck. I don't see Kansas (Self is still relatively young) or IU (same conference + Crean is young) being threats, at least for many years.
My biggest fear? Boeheim can't coach forever... and if Syracuse threw the caysh (or, instead, money) at Coach B, given Coach B's roots, anyone think he'd turn it down?
I know, I know... live for the moment, etc... still, he is CLEARLY a freaking awesome coach. I would imagine, we aren't the only ones who've noticed it.
He will retire here.
Everyone who's talked to Beilein has insisted that he will be here until he retires. There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt that. He came here to achieve things he couldn't at West Virginia, and he has. He doesn't have much more room on the ladder to climb. What is better than winning B1G titles regularly and reaching a Final Four? If we return most of our players, we could win it all next season. At this point, I think it's all about continuing to build his legacy at Michigan.
Also, Beilein is 61, and not too many coaches that age (other than Larry Brown) look for new jobs. Most are where they want to be.
No way. At his age, with his contract he will finish here. There was a great article during last years run where he said his entire career he had been rebuilding programs and then leavin before he could enjoy the benefits. He said Michigan (and last year) was different. He was finally enjoying the fruits of his labor and intended to stay.
Syracuse is neither a bigger program, nor should have a bigger budget. Beilein's age makes him a less attractive candidate in any case. If UNC or Duke need a new coach in a couple of years, I don't see them hire someone just a few years younger than Williams or K.
No way JB is leaving. I understand if your memory only goes back so far but there was a time when Michigan BB was about as big as any, as it is becoming again now. And I don't mean the Fab 5 - in the 60s and 70s there was major highs. With the facilities and performance the last few years we are are now way up the ladder and should stay there.
He also doesn't look like someone about to retire any time soon and should be here at least another 6-7 years if not more.
...but I am worried that programs will snatch up Bacari and Jordan.
You should stop worrying about the inevitable. One or both of those guys will be gone to a head coaching job before long. The one thing that will keep one of them here is the chance to take over for Beilein once he retires.
They coach vs. each other. It's not too far fetched that Beilein's team could be playing Fisher's team in the tourney at some point.
in what he said. He played four years for Fisher. He's certainly earned whatever opinion he has of his coaching ability. I find it very refreshing to have former players talk about how good our coaches are. It beats the hell out of them criticizing coaches they never played for and don't know much about.
I think he was just being honest and it just shows what type of regard coach B is held in. Fisher let them play organized pick up basketball and Beilein would have had them in a system.
I don't know if this opinion was expressed in this thread. Frankly, I'm not going to read it all, but I'm pretty sick and goddanmn tired of the Fab Five constantly drawing attention upon themselves with the way the current teams are performing. Maybe I was too young but I don't remember them talking so much during the Amaker years. It's so disrespectful to the current team and last year's team. Maybe Jalen's prominence in the media has made me a little more annoyed but it's really beginning to be a bit much for my liking.
Let the current team and players enjoy their time instead of drawing attention upon themselves. The interjection is annoying. If you're asked you're a grown man and should politely decline.
What do you want them to do? Decline interviews? You know they get paid to appear, right?
I think you can tactfully go on speaking engagements without detracting from the current program and players. The logical conclsuion of his statement is the Fab 5 > last years team. Let's keep the spotlight where it belongs -- on this team and their accomplishments.
I really don't think that was his point here. He's praising Beilein, not knocking Beilein's players.
Like I said, I'm pretty annoyed with the constant Fab 5 talk considering the resurgence of the team. At times, they've clearly used the spotlight of the current program and teams for their own platform, so I could be overreacting.
I'd say you are. Are the Fab Five taking out full-page ads in the NYT to express their opinions, or are they simply answering questions that are being lobbed at them? Ray Jackson is hardly somebody who's been a quote machine.
...that Fisher is the greatest coach in Michigan history.
I was never that impressed with Fisher's abilities as an X's and O's coach. I am sure many will defend him but the Fab 5 had amazing talent but never won a 'ship
Has had some very solid sd teams, which is impressive.
The problem is that Beilein could not and has not recruited the caliber of players on the fab 5 (aside from Mitch Mcgary). Weber and jalen were both basically 5* guys.
This discussion is one of those annoying theoreticals but since it is here let me be a hypocrite and add to it.
The two main weaknessess of the Fab 5 teams in my eyes were turnovers and lack of consistent outside shooting. Beilein would have improved the turnover issue but while he improves players shooting you had to go to guy ilke Rob Pelinka to get a true outside shooter. What annoyed me about the Fab 5 was we had 2 of the best big men to ever play together and we went 8-10 minute spells where we were cool with just shooting J's all day rather than pound it in. And that included Webber who loved his outside shot (and was good at it generally for a big man but cmon, he was a man child).
Anyhow it's a silly debate. It is like saying in the 2nd quarter of a football game if we make this field goal instead of miss it, so and so happens. A bazillion moving parts.
This is definitely a compliment to Coach B. It would have a much different meaning if he had
said, "Coach Beilein would have won the National Championship if he had the Fab 5"
Good to hear from Ray and I don't think he's dissing Fish at all.
My question - would Beilein in 1991 been able to coach the Fab Five to an NCAA championship? At this point he was coaching at Le Moyne and wouldn't be at Canisius til 1992.
I hate to be the buzz-kill in the group, but the Fab Five win a title with Beilein as the coach only if: (1) they play better against Duke or UNC, AND (2) Coach B convinces Weber and the others who took money to not do so.
Ray, you are a class guy and from what I hear you were honest when you played for Michigan. BUT, your teammates CHEATED. Because you won games with ineligible players (who CHEATED), all those victories are forfeited. There's a reason your final four banners came down. If you win things by CHEATING, they don't count.
Unless Coach Beilein addressed the CHEATING thing, the only championship you would have won with him at the helm would have been the vacated/John Calipari kind.
The only player on the Fab Five teams implicated in the Ed Martin scandal was Webber, and his relationship with Martin went back to when he was in middle school. His situation was a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. It could plausibly be argued that he (unlike Traylor, Taylor and Bullock) did not benefit from his athletic status given that his relationship with Martin went back so far (there is a "friend of the family" provision in the rules along these lines). If we had beaten UNC, I bet the NCAA would have allowed it - they are loath to strip championship teams of their status if they can avoid it. (See: the Cam Newton case.)
Yeah, I bet Beilein could've made them better teams overall but - like was said above - it's not like Fisher never got them past the first weekend, twice they were one game from winning it all.
It's almost like saying "Steve Fisher could've won a national title with last year's Michigan team". Ok maybe, but it's not like Beilein didn't get him to the brink himself. Same goes for the flip side
It sounds good to hear... but Fisher was no slouch and the 92-93 teams would demolish our present team (I know, different times).
I agree with Ray and I agree that I don't think Beilein would have ended up with the fab five under his hood.
People don't want to hear it, but FIsher was consistently outcoached in big moments during the Fab Five years. I mean, it's no shame in being owned by Dean Smith and Coach K, but he was totally owned in both those games. Beilein is on the level with anyone, and I never thought Fisher was. I think he must have some very good assistants at SDSU or he's grown a lot as a coach, because I thought he had some real issues coaching post the unreal 1989 run (when he really managed the games and his bench very well). His team was young and strong-willed, so I'm sure it wasn't easy to ride herd on them, but I thought those teams could have been coached better. Just my opinion, but this is what I thought at the time.
I mentioned on another thread that I was a Crisler season-ticket holder in the early nineties and followed the team quite closely. It was after the OSU game in early '92, I believe, which M lost, that Fisher started all five of the fabulous freshmen. As the Five went on their rampage through the B10 and cultivated their bad-ass image, the opinion circulated --- rightly or wrongly --- that these five players largely coached themselves. Fisher was viewed as a sort of facilitator who offered constructive suggestions, which suggestions the Five sometimes followed and sometimes did not. And that scenario --- if true --- was largely OK in the B10, but clearly not OK when M came up against the Coach Ks and Dean Smiths of the world.
J Beilein would have brought an entirely different mindset to that team which, once the Five understood that he actually knew more basketball than they did, might have provided the edge needed to win, rather than just play in, two national championships.
No offense, Ray: the Fab 5 would not have been in Ann Arbor if JB was coach unless they would have gone without their extra benefits.
I'm not going to argue one way or another. I think Steve Fisher's run at San Diego State says he can coach pretty darn well. Also, Beilein has proven he is damn good coach too. Ray is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. I think they would have won a NCAA championship if Weber didn't call TO. However, with NCAA sanctions it would have been vacated anyway so the point is moot.
I don't think anyone could have recruited all 5 to UM and prevented all of the violations. So, like I said the point is moot - woulda, coulda, shoulda..... all you want. I'm just impressed with what we're seeing this year and last. The future is indeed bright.