Quick thoughts from a Spartan fan
I'm not gloating nor flaming--those of you who have seen me post here know that. Regardless, here are my thoughts (from the other side) regarding the game:
- Very impressed with the progress your defense has made. Still not great by any means, but what I saw was MILES ahead of what you had the past few years.
- The wind meant both teams had to change their game-plans significantly, and MSU certainly adjusted better on offense thanks to a more physical O-line.
- Devin Gardner is a better passer than Denard Robinson, although Robinson was easily the best athlete on the field.
- Your O-line did not handle Worthy well at all, and it seems like our entire D-line anticipated your snap count every time.
- Travis Jackson (a RS freshman) did a very nice job on Mike Martin... this was honestly the biggest surprise of the game for me.
- William Gholston should be suspended--more so for the helmet twist than the punch. The punch was a "heat of the moment" type thing after Lewan facemasked him and pinned his face to the ground, while the helmet twist was an unnecessary and dangerous play that I don't like to see out of anyone.
- That being said (re: Gholston), your team did not at all capitalize on the ridiculous amounts of penalty yards that we gifted you. The stalled drives after our defense kept them alive with dumb penalties were crucial.
- I do believe that the better team won, and I know I will get negged for that.
Good luck going forward. I know we'll need a bit of luck to even stay in the game with Wisconsin.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:04 AM ^
except I really wonder if we cash in on the 4 and inches and tie the game at 21, if MSU doesn't fold. Michigan had all the momentum at the time. MSU had failed to even get a first down in the 4th quarter until their last drive to run out the clock. So not totally buying the State was the "superior team" ... yeah they won and their pressure on the QB is the reason (and the awful call on the 4th down). Congrats on the win.
Gholston is a thug of epic proportions. He attepted to break Lewan's arm, then punched him, tried to end Denard's football career (those were called). He also had a horsecollar tackle on Denard that was not called (the Lion's got called for one yesterday that was almost identical).
Finally - your Coach is also a thug - it is a sytle that is going to get someone hurt in a non-football action way. One of your DB's has already threatened Wisconsin. It's like the U from the Erickson days. Not anything a real football fan can take pride in.
Go Blue!
October 17th, 2011 at 10:05 AM ^
"gifted". That word implies that those penalties were deserved. I think they all were and probably a an ejection or two. Was State the better team on the field? Yes. Did Michigan get outplayed? Yes. Did Michigan get outcoached? Yes. Did MSU want it more? Apparently. The players were willing to do whatever it took to win. That killer instinct is what has disappeared from the Michigan Program the last several years. I am not condoning the actions of the guilty here, but State treats this game as a war and we do not. Maybe we need to make this game as important as the OSU game to regain control of the rivalry.
At this current point, the rivarly is pretty one-sided. Not all of history, but right now.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:07 AM ^
Appreciate the rational discourse and I agree with pretty much everything you said. Most frustrating part for me 2 days later is that Sparty penalties gave us every opportunity to win and we couldn't do anything with it. Just a poor game for us in many aspects.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:10 AM ^
Thank you for your outside opinion and I cannot disagree with your statements. I will say I thought the OL play was more of a guard issue then the entire OL. It really is a shame Michigan couldn't take advantage of the penalties and the 2 turnovers.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:10 AM ^
I was worried about this game and feel better now that it is over. Don't disagree with the better team winning comment. Only thing I don't understand is the "Face Mask" that you said lead to the Gholston punch. From the replays I've seen, Lewan just manhandled him the whole play and then after he had donkey ridden him down, shoved his head down. Not exactly nice, but not an illeagal play, and didn't nearly add up to the retaliation punch. I saw Gholston talk to Hoke on the way out and shook his hand. I'm guessing he's not a bad kid, but should still get two game suspension (one for each).
I'm more disappointed in the last roughing the passer play that seemed to be an attempt to injure Denard after the game was well in hand, and the coaches seeming approval of these types of plays. I saw Nick Fairley do a lot of dirty stuff last year and was dissapointed with the Lions pick up of him. There is a fine line between agressive play and dirty play and I think it was crossed.
It is a shame, because MSU looked good otherwise and could have won this game without the extra's. It takes away from what the rest of the team did.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:37 AM ^
Gholston didn't exactly say good game to Hoke, he said, "Thanks."
He's not a good kid, but a douchebag.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:45 AM ^
I just happened to see him shake Hoke's hand after the game and made an assumption. Outside of this game I know very little about Gholston and his character.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:20 PM ^
Sorry, buy you don't know shit about Gholston. I'm not defending his actions: the two plays were totally unexceptable. But, "not a good kid?" He's a teenager, and you're throwing him away like trash. He's got a chance to learn a lesson, and hopefully he does.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:57 PM ^
Apparently you don't know shit about him either. The kid is trash. He proved it at least 3 times on saturday. If he was going to learn a lesson he would have done so after the arm bar, after the facemask twist, or after the punch. Sorry, 3 strikes and the kid is out. He should be in jail, not on a football field.
Lastly, aren't you the same tool that said he was an educator in another thread? The fact that you call yourself an educator is simply "unexceptable". Troll along now.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:10 AM ^
1) I sense there is a growing contingent of MSU folks who are desperate to see action taken by Dantonio as to Gholston. (I'm one of them). Quite frankly we're tired of the BS that started with Rather Hall and has plagued the program since.
2) This game says very little about Hoke and his staff. They still only have RR type players at their disposal, and those players are still not equipped physically to pull off wins against teams like MSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, etc... (IMHE). Which is not to say they don't play hard or they're not getting better (they do and they are, clearly). But when I think of "Block M Michigan," I think of huge (fucking huge) intimidating players. I think of that picture of the Penn State QB lying on the ground on his back. (I was at Spartan Stadium in 2003 when the M players got off the bus to enter the stadium tunnel, and every MSU fan was quiet because these guys [starting with Navarre] were huge and intimidating - no shit was talked at that time). I think Hoke's recruiting indicates a return to that style of M, but for a year or two there will be something of a hodge-podge group executing their gameplan. So I'd consider the short term to be anything but representative of this staff's full potential. In the meantime, it appears to me that they're doing something smart that the former staff did not, i.e., adapt to the players they have. But that will necessarily have mixed results (though better ones than otherwise).
3) MSU right now more resembles "Block M Michigan" (physically speaking) than current-M does. And in the future, this rivalry will likely be more like it was through the 90's - fairly even.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:15 AM ^
+1 to you, for what it's worth.
October 17th, 2011 at 4:43 PM ^
1. I think you're vastly outnumbered, and are barely a drop in the ocean, and always will be, because after 4 in a row Dantonio has a job for life, unless he pulls a Tressel.
2-3. I've been thinking this, with the pregame confidence, the knocks on the O-Line, and the SHOCK we could lose to MSU....I think a lot of Michigan fans are living in denial about where MSU is as a program. Or are too young to remember much past "6-0", and Bobby and John L. Dantonio is the best coach outside of Saban MSU has had going on 40 years (especially if you count Perles whole career, going from the really good days to the "got too political" days). He's doing a good job running a team and building a program. Whether there's a ceiling there that some MSU fans don't see, and won't accept (like Minnesota fans did with Mason...though MSU is better built to succeed in this day and age than the Gophers), we'll see. With the current construction of the Big Ten, it's going to be hard to reach Wisconsin levels, no more national power levels, especially if Michigan keeps recruiting like they are now. But he can easily make them the best program that MSU can be, which is a pretty darn good Big Ten team that builds for at least a run at the title every few years. He's not elite like Saban, who could probably win pretty much anywhere (though you may not like how he does it.) The problem is that I'd be horribly embarrassed to win the way they're winning up there if it was my team. Last weekend was shameful, because none of what they did really helped them win the game...it just cast a shameful light on a big victory for them. It hurt more than I imagined it really helped, psychologically.
But as long as he can keep even with Michigan, or even close (with a 4-1 headstart), most fans won't give a rat's ass if he's drowning puppies. If anything, this weekend proved it.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:29 PM ^
"1) I sense there is a growing contingent of MSU folks who are desperate to see action taken by Dantonio as to Gholston. (I'm one of them). Quite frankly we're tired of the BS that started with Rather Hall and has plagued the program since. "
As an MSU fan, I can't disagree with this. The whole Rather Hall thing was an embarassement. Dantonio took a chance on a kid who was in trouble once and let him back on the team. That kid was the "ringleader" of the whole Rather Hall incident. There isn't a team in the nation who hasn't had issues with players. Dantonio gave a kid a second chance, and he got burned--along with the rest of MSU. Being in education, I see kids every day that with just a little guidance could do so much with their lives. It's very sad when you have someone who was given not one chance, but two and learn nothing from it. It's very sad, too, when that incident is used to bash a program. But, that's the way it works....
October 17th, 2011 at 10:11 AM ^
The scary thing about the MSU Defense is that half of their contributers are from the 2010 recruiting
This is a defensive program thats talented, deep and young. Look out.
There is a reason I have said and published (at the JCB) a handful of times that I would trade rosters with MSU in a heartbeat
October 17th, 2011 at 10:13 AM ^
I negged you just because you said you knew you'd get negged for speaking your mind. Most here will agree that MSU was the better team.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:14 AM ^
on a silver platter for Michigan. Which means Michigan actually "outgained" the Spartans 374 to 333.
There's no excuse. I think Michigan gave a lot of effort, but MSU is the better team and was more amped up for this game (again) than Michigan. Hoke has a lot of work to do in that department it seems to me. Michigan is still a young team, and will be laden with seniors next year.
If MSU wins vs. Wisconsin, then this could be Dantonio's best team, and there's little in the way of getting to the title game. I don't think Nebraska is very good. Iowa and Northwestern strangely may be more difficult contests.
As for Michigan, nothing is certain anymore except for the Purdue game at home. I cannot predict the outcome of games at Iowa, at Illinois, Nebraska and Ohio State anymore.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:19 AM ^
The only thing I disagree with is the notion that Devin is a better passer. I don't see it yet and I certainly don't see how anyone could draw that conclusion from Saturday given that neither was even remotely effective through the air.
Regardless, that game was proof positive of the saying that the game is won in the trenches. How our defensive line got dominated so badly is a mystery.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:19 AM ^
This is the third year in a row MSU's line had our silent / shotgun snap count down to a T.
I'm mystified as to why the coaching staff wouldn't do something about that. Change it. Do more under center. Something.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:20 AM ^
We heard all week about how crappy MSU's Oline was, how they weren't going to run on us and Cousins was going to be on his back all day, etc. That didn't pan out at all.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:21 AM ^
Thanks for being rational. Posters like you and other level headed guys from rival teams are always welcome on this board.
* side note... I always love sports more when both sides can be rational and enjoy sports for being just that, sports. If this were a war then I'd say let's hate each other and esculate everything. I want to win as much as the next guy but I like it, when in the end, we still realize it's not life or death (unless you are trying to snap a guys neck using his facemask.)
October 17th, 2011 at 10:24 AM ^
it is wut is is and it ain't no more.
Congrats Sparty.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:33 AM ^
Marcus Rush should be suspended too. Along with Gholston.
If Rush did that in the NFL, he'd have gotten a big fine. We can't fine NCAA student-athletes. And although Rush might not have gotten a one-game suspension in the NFL (because that would entail loss of a game's salary, which would be 1/20 of a year's salary), the Conference ought to be MORE vigilant about personal fouls with intent to injure than the big leagues, not less.
One very common theme I see from lots of MSU fans on the 'net is that, "Yeah Gholston might get suspended now. It's worth it, even if he does get suspended." I expect that that is what Pat Narduzzi is telling the players in their meetings now. "60 Minutes of unneccessary roughness."
That is why I say to you, Mr. Calm and Rational Spartan Fan; I hope that Wisconsin destroys you in every imaginable way. It's a pity that we share this state with you.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:33 PM ^
I think NCAA thugs should starting getting fines. Serously.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:35 AM ^
The only thing I would argue is if you are more rational than RationalMSUfan. I agree with you on all points.
HOWEVER, you should be afraid of Hoke and this staff, he is bringing Michigan back and it is only a matter of time before MSU resumes their rightful place as the second best team in Michigan.
My brother, a hardcore Buckeye fan, told me that he is terrified of Hoke and Co. It is already happening on the recruiting trail and is only a matter of time until it happens on the field.
Until then, congrats on the win, the better team, the stout D-line and bragging rights for (hopefully only) one more year.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:31 AM ^
Fair assessment, and one that shows some logical thought about the game. Thought Martin was definitely neutralized, and that goes to the OLine. Baker had a great game, and he really seems to get up for these games. I am still amazed that MSU is able to jump the snap as well as they do, considering no other defense UM plays has shown that ability over the past couple of years. Not sure if it is coaching, tipping plays, etc., but this seems like an MSU-specific issue for the offense.
Defensively, I thought MSU did a fine job bottling up the running game, but there were passes to be made that just weren't, and this was clearly the worst game Denard has had passing in his time as a starter. Some of that goes to State, but I also have to think that Borges' play calling didn't help. A lack of a running game allowed MSU to tee off on Denard, and we saw the results.
MSU was the better team on Saturday, but I still think they are going to be down this year. Wiscy should be ready for murder, and Nebraska is going to be a tough team to slow down. They end of their schedule is set up nicely, though, so they'll make a decent bowl game.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:33 AM ^
I take issue that bigger is better. Bo one with smaller more atheletic linemen. Does anyone recall the Messner verse Roidboy battles of the 80ties. The guy giving up 100 pounds won. I also so a TCU defense handle Wisconsin's huge line and Oregon stay in the game against Auburn. The FSU ultradefenses of the 90ties always had slightly undersized but ultra quick linebackers like Brooks. Size can be useful, but speed is more important. Maybe you want one or two guys to clog the middle and be impossible to move. But at every other position a faster guy is better.
Regarding the UM<>MSU game I had predicted MSU by two scores. I did not expect all the penalties. I thought the game plan by Bourges was horrible. It seems to me he is being as gimmicky on offense as R^2 was on defense. If anything, Borges insistance on long throws was more of a disadvantage in the strong winds. A short passing game built into the spread & shread would have been far more useful. For someone who is supposedly innovative there were no screens, draws, and very few slants called to try to penalize MSU for blizing up the middle. We did get the one TD.
Regarding next year, I think UM will get murdered by MSU. We graduate Martin and RVB and there is not a suitable replacement on the horizon. Tackles are one of those positions where you rarely find a 1st or 2nd year capable of starting. If anyone begs to differ, please tell me who our startering tackles. Campbell still looks like a bust.
October 17th, 2011 at 10:43 AM ^
I strongly believe that non michigan fans shouldnt have an account on the site. I really do. With that being said you're right. I know I will most likely get hate for this but Mike Martin has been Vastly Overrated.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
Fans of other teams (the ones who aren't trolls) add a lot of good insight. Having them here allows us to have discussions that often wouldn't exist and if they did they wouldn't be worthwhile, as everyone would be biased in favor of Michigan. Thats one of the nice things about MGoBlog compared to other college football boards—if your opinion is well thought out and you aren't trolling, you will likely be accepted by the MGoCommunity despite other football affiliations.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:18 PM ^
Did I miss a secret handshake training and membership dues payment again? Because if not, this must still be the public-facing website that I signed up for years ago, which means anyone else should be able to sign up.
Hell, Irish has been here for years and been cordial and informed, more than a bunch of "UM fans!111!!!" here. I welcome outside opinions; just don't be a troll. Heck, The Only Colors has a decent number of UM fans who post periodically, and that doesn't devolve into mayhem either because they are respectful.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:00 AM ^
I agree with most of this except the Mike Martin bit. I'm pretty sure he was double-teamed all day. Also, your Oline made great use of cut-blocks all day on the stretch plays which Baker got most of his yards on. That was a great gameplan by the MSU staff because that is where we have been weak all year.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:04 AM ^
I don't really disagree with anything you said, but I would say that Gardner has better throwing mechanics than Robinson does. As of now his situational awareness is worse, and he doesn't seem to be any better at surveying the field.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:05 AM ^
Missed opportunities...
Backwards lateral that nobody immediately jumped on. That would have caused a review and turned in our favor.
4th and 1. QB sneak all frickin day. Don't get cute there. You need a first down. Trying to outsmart a defense that 's swarmed all day was a critical error in judgement.
Missed tackles on both Martin TDs.
100+ yards in penalties and didn't make them pay.
Gardner's pass beyond the LOS.
Gardners pass to a covered WR when another receiver was wide open in the middle.
Putting Denard in "Read" mode as a QB. Why choose that game to force him to become a pocket passer? He can nail all the quick throws when that's his only choice. Either hit the quick rouote or take off running. REALLY disappointed in the coaches for their stubbornness.
Son of a bitch, we played like ass and yet we STILL had the ball with 4 minutes left and trailing by a single TD.
State's defense was confident all game. They took chances that almost always paid off. Narduzzi, as much as I dislike him, deserves a lot of credit. We made him look like a genius.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:06 AM ^
OP was bascially right...can quibble here and there, but basically the most rational Sparty post I have seen all weekend.
Martin was double teamed all day...but that is good execution on MSU's part.
Gardner will be the better QB historically...but right now, denard is better.
As for Rush being suspended...dont agree. He deserved a penalty, but it didn't rise to the level of suspension, the way Gholston's plays did.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:08 AM ^
Excellent post.
These are both imperfect teams; honestly, had Michigan been able to tie the game up in the fourth quarter, things may have gone differently. But they didn't.
MSU's had five years under Dantonio, and it shows. He has put the right pieces in place for his game plans. He has made good use of his talent. This is what Michigan still needs to do.
Next week should be really interesting for you guys!
October 17th, 2011 at 11:12 AM ^
My cousin mirrored some of your thoughts as well. He is an MSU grad and die-hard fan. He was not impressed with the facemask twist, but defended the punch. He said that Lewan was egging him into it. I guess he's entitled to his opinion, but I know what mine is. When Mouton punched Notre Dame's Eric Olsen, I felt ashamed. I would of felt that way no matter what Olsen had done to him prior to that. Punching has no place in football.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:13 AM ^
What makes me smile is when I think ahead to two years from now when we have 2 full Hoke recruiting classes. He is recruiting the hell out of both lines and all of the defense. We will be huge across the trenches which is what we need to beat MSU, OSU, and Wisconsin. Now, we have yet to snag some offensive playmakers but there are rumors of Dunn eventually going our way and we are in on some stud receivers (Payton, Darboh, Powe). Things will be very good for Michigan football in the near future.
October 17th, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
Good post. Thanks for being a rational fan. You're the type that we can deal with.
I agree that the better football team won, although I hate your team more as each year goes by. And that would be true whether Michigan won or lost, because the thuggery that took place on the field has no place in college football. I would be embarrassed if I were Mark Dantonio.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:56 PM ^
October 17th, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
I enjoy hearing from rational others in opposing fan bases.
We will be back in short order. You are right, our D is much improved over last year, and we have good recruits coming in. It will take some time to build back our depth but Hoke and Mattison are taking us in the right direction. I like Borges too...
October 17th, 2011 at 11:54 AM ^
Great post from a Sparty backer. I bleed maize and blue but hard to argue that the better team won. Our day is coming.....
October 17th, 2011 at 12:34 PM ^
+100 to you for a coherent, respectful, and straight-forward post. Thanks for your thoughts.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:10 PM ^
do you think MSU should be the ones to pre-emptively suspend Gholston? What about the coaches who were gloating on the sidelines while it was going on?
Thanks for the rational thoughts, nice to know they are out there somewhere.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:54 PM ^
Because it might make Dantonio look good. It absolutely shouldn't, but it might.
Dantonio could have done something during the game (they did sit Gholston for a couple of plays, but that was only to settle him down, no doubt because they feared he was such an animal, he might get more flags and maybe an expulsion). In truth, Dantonio was arguing fiercely against the flag on the play where Gholston wrenched Denard's face mask. He was working the refs.
Dantonio could have said something after the game; he didn't. Dantonio could have announced something by now; he hasn't. Narduzzi could have said something. Actually Narduzzi did say something and it ended all doubt; he was happy with the proceedings. "60 minutes of unneccessary roughness" was they coached.
No, some sort of MSU-imposed suspension would not be good. I don't think they have the balls to do it anyway. MSU will say, "Suspend Taylor Lewan then, too," after the Confernce announces Gholston's suspension. Because that way they can try to impugn Big Brother too.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:39 PM ^
When Michigan was driving in the 4th quarter to tie it up, I thought that MSU might implode if it happened becasue it would be such a shock given how well MSU was playing.
A part of me (a very very small part, but nonetheless a part) thought that it would be a shame that such a dominating effort came up empty. No need to worry, it never came to that.
Kudos for not being afraid to blitz Denard like he was John Navarre. Teams have been afraid to commit to all-out blitzes on Denard for good reason, but MSU showed that with a good D it can be done effectively. Now Michigan needs to work more on hot reads and some blitz counters since every team out there will be trying it.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:53 PM ^
October 17th, 2011 at 3:58 PM ^
I would have to agree with all your bullet points including the better team part. Howeva, I think if this game would have been played in AA then Michigan escapes with a razor thin victory.
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