Questions for Irish
1) What is your opinion of Brian Kelly calling the flea flicker (picker) and going for a TD instead of FG at the end of the half?
2) What are the chances that either Rudolph (Mr. Speedy) or Floyd go pro after this year?
3) Do the ND quarterbacks think that Tacopants is on their team now?
September 12th, 2010 at 12:08 PM ^
2 very make able field goals, that comes down to execution by the UM kicker. Do you not see a difference between Crist going out of the game with a freak injury and missing FGs? They're not even in the same ballpark.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:41 PM ^
You are a great level-headed opponent and I have a lot more respect for you for coming on this blog after a loss from us, but man am I glad it is you coming up with the woulda, shoulda, couldas instead of us.
GO BLUE!
September 12th, 2010 at 2:15 PM ^
Did Crist not play because he got hurt in practice or fell during pre-game routine? Or did he get hurt during a play against the Michigan defense?
Playing the "if our QB didn't get hurt during the game we would have won" game is as stupid as us arguing if we had made the two field goals that UM missed.
September 12th, 2010 at 3:56 PM ^
so you don't see the difference between players executing to their ability on the field and the starting qb leaving the game due to to something you can't prevent or practice for? Then I can't help you
September 12th, 2010 at 6:45 PM ^
It's not our fault that ND doesn't have depth at the QB position. You lost fair and square, deal with it.
September 12th, 2010 at 3:14 PM ^
which is understandable after a heartbreaking loss but try to clear your head.
If Crist doesn't get injured, every part of the game from that point on would have changed. Arguing that Crist is good for 4 points and then trying to argue that Michigan's fortune would somehow remain exactly the same is ridiculously close minded.
September 12th, 2010 at 3:48 PM ^
no you're puttng words in my mouth. I did not say the game would have played out exactly the same at anytime. At what time during the first drive do you think Crist would have gone 8-19 with 2 ints, and no points for the rest of the 2nd half?
Alright and now at what time during the 2nd half do you think he would have played that poorly?
Montana the 3rd string QB still passed for over 100 yards against UM's defense, a kid who never even started a high school game. Does your defense and offense get better when Crist is in the game, because the numbers showed the exact opposite. The UM D gave up more yards when Crist was in the game and the UM offense gained less yards per play when Crist was in the game. How does that not matter when looking at it?
September 12th, 2010 at 3:59 PM ^
Our defense was absolutely horrible yesterday, and yet we still won. Now, this is either a function of an arbitrary, indefinible thing, like luck, or maybe ND just wasn't good enough to take advantage of our fuck ups, and in the end MICH simply outperformed the Domers when it mattered most.
Regardless, it seemed like one of those games where "the team with the ball last was going to win the game." ND had the ball to end the game, unfortunately they just ran out of time.
If MICH had lost that game I would have felt like we should have won, but let it slip away. I would have come up with a bunch of reasons why we should have won and ND should have lost, however, it's over now. Time to start focusing on next week.
September 12th, 2010 at 4:05 PM ^
Why is this so complicated? UM's defense was bad before the game started and it was still bad when the game ended. It was still better than either of ND's backup QBs who played for nearly half the game. UM's defense was not better than ND's offense when Crist was on the field. And on top of that UM's offense was the exact opposite.
Crist on the field gave ND the advantage in the game, it was bad luck for ND that he couldn't play 4 quarters, It was good luck for UM as they were able to control the first half and won the game.
September 12th, 2010 at 4:17 PM ^
It's not complicated. It's just that you've created an arbitrary definition of luck that fits neatly into your perception of what happened in the game. It's illogical, and comes across as a fan, upset because his team lost a close game, attempting to justify why his team coulda/shoulda won, rather than any sort of reasoned analysis.
September 12th, 2010 at 5:49 PM ^
It isn't complicated - the game is over and the final score was 28 -24.....Michigan. Time to stop debating with DomerHomer and move on. By the way Irish, how many hours until we get our answers about next year's game?
September 12th, 2010 at 4:13 PM ^
You argue that Michigan was lucky that Crist went out but you disregard Michigan's gaffes after that point. I'm sorry man. You can't change history for ND only.
You are being irrational. I'm done with this debate.
September 14th, 2010 at 8:02 AM ^
After reading all of your posts one thing is clear. You are a fucking moron.
September 12th, 2010 at 11:50 AM ^
If ND had won yesterday, would it then be legitimate for M fans to say that ND dodged a bullet because our best corner dislocated his ankle before the season or our starting safety/LB hybrid got hurt last week or the referees missed the fact that your receiver did not possess the ball when he crossed the goal line on one of your touchdowns? There are a lot of what-ifs that we can point to as well.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:04 PM ^
I put nearly all injuries down as bad luck. But without knowing/seeing Woolfolk in game to see what he is capable of I don't see it as ND dodging a bullet, there is no way to judge his potential to influence the game. Crist's influence on the field was obvious with the way he played in the first drive and the 2nd half.
I have addressed the TD reception by Jones in here already, and my response hasn't changed.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:25 PM ^
Anthony Morelli (may God rest his soul) that injuries are just bad luck
September 12th, 2010 at 2:54 PM ^
I agree that the game would have been different with Crist in, but I honestly don't think that would have definitively given you the edge to win. For starters, completely changing the first half would have completely changed the outcome of the second half. Crist did a pretty good job on his first 3 scoring drives (The 95 yarder was a good throw, but that's not exactly a quality drive, its just a single good pass to the TE with screwed coverage), but much like ND could occasionally stop us, its not like we couldn't stop Crist, which is why the game was 21-17 for like 20 minutes before the last two TDs of the game.
Definitely hate to see your QB go down like that, and you may very well have won that game if he had played all 4 quarters, but you most certainly not would have run away with it. Injuries are all a part of the game, as we have know at Michigan all too well. We've got some god players injuried right now too, and just because they haven't been able to play this year yet doens't mean they are any less of an impact to our team than Crist. At least some of our injured players were out making an impact last year, where Crist had only one game against Purdue to his credit to show what he's worth, so in a way, yes, you did "dodge a bullet" as well. Just like Crist could have led to more points, maybe Hemmingway could have led to more points. Having Woolfolk might have meant we at least get a tackle at midfield on Rudolph's 95 yarder.
I don't mean to be a douche here, and I'm saying this with the utmost respect, just as I did tot he ND fans around me at the game. The internet just isn't good for showing civility effectively sometimes, and I'm sure its mutual for you, especially only a day removed from a game you almost had. Whatever the case though, Crist not getting injured wouldn't have changed how close the game was, and we're not any more lucky he went out than we are unlucky to have some of our own players out; that's all part of the sport.
BTW, FWIW, you guys are were a good group to go on the road for. Very polite and respectful, and had a good time interacting with Irish fans around me. I'm also glad that you guys are believing in Kelly for the most part the way too many of us haven't in RR. Being from West Michigan, I feel ualified to say he's a very good coach, and he will have you back to the BCS soon. Good luck the rest of the year, and good luck against Sparty. Can't wait for the night game next year. Should be exciting. ;)
September 12th, 2010 at 4:19 PM ^
I certainly don't think ND would have blown the game open with Crist playing for 4 quarters. And I agree with most of your other points, its a good win for UM just please keep denard healthy. Glad you had a good trip for the game, its pretty nice down there.
September 12th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
Its not like Woolfolk is an unkown freshman, he has been playing for a couple of years now and was pretty effective at CB last year. He is a definte upgrade over what we have on the field right now so would have been a difference in the game.
Saying Crist could have changed the game by having played 4 quarters is absolutely the same as saying Woolfolk could have made a differnce had he been in the game. You are using a circular argument here because only what actually happened is known, what is unknown has no bearing on any debate because its all "what ifs".
September 12th, 2010 at 4:26 PM ^
I am sure Woolfolk would have made an impact on the game had he been healthy, but there is no way to gauge how big that impact would be with him playing at all. Crist played just over half the game for ND, everyone saw how UM defended him and how productive he was in spite of it. It's not the same
September 12th, 2010 at 12:13 PM ^
Give it a rest - Michigan won fair and square. Don't make people go back in history and start pointing out how outcomes would have changed if certain players didn't get hurt. Personally I think Michigan would have faired pretty well if Antonio Bass didn't blow out his knee.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:27 PM ^
I am not taking away UM's win, I have repeatedly said UM deserves the win. I just don't really view it as full loss for ND after the way the game played out. ND is going to lose more games this year, but after the way they played this week, they're going to win many more. I am content with that in Kelly's first year.
September 12th, 2010 at 2:53 PM ^
LOL
Only a fucking domer.
Guess our losses post Tate injury didnt count either?
September 12th, 2010 at 4:29 PM ^
From a development standpoint bud, its an L on record for the year. Is it that hard to comprehend what I am saying?
September 12th, 2010 at 6:08 PM ^
Your team just took another ride on the failboat. toot toot
September 13th, 2010 at 1:35 AM ^
Haha!!! classic.
September 12th, 2010 at 10:52 AM ^
... but MIchigan "earned' seeing the backup by making the hits that knocked the starter out. there's no arguing otherwise. you "dodged a bullet" that lineman knocked down several Denard passes that were about to hit wide open receivers in space. see, we can all play the game.
TIA
September 12th, 2010 at 11:19 AM ^
So UM practiced on how to make ball carriers smack their head on the ground all week? Crist having to come out of the game was bad luck for ND and good luck for UM. You don't practice luck.
Knocking down a pass is something you do practice, in this case the defense executing on the field.
It doesn't change the outcome, UM still won and still deserves to win.
September 12th, 2010 at 2:17 PM ^
injuries are part of the game. to try to act or discuss how the game would have gone had so and so not laid the wood is ridiculous. i cannot imagine trying to debate with someone on how we would have been in 2008 if McGuffie didn't get concussed, etc.
September 12th, 2010 at 10:54 AM ^
Oh really? How about the no call on the TJ Jones TD? How about the numerous iffy calls on UM's blocking when I saw numerous worse calls go uncalled against ND? Michigan certainly got away with some stuff and "dodged a bullet" in some instances, but ND got away with more and dodged quite a few bullets themselves. Besides, how is it you can say with absolute certainty that things would've been different had Crist played four quarters? How do you know Crist doesn't throw a pick six on his second drive and completely get rattled the rest of the game; or some other scenario that is just as likely to play out as any other that doesn't lead to the ND homer's ultimate fantasy of ND totally winning every game if not for something they did? How about UM just plain beat them? Your D didn't come through when it needed to, plain and simple. I assume you're just trying to ignore the pain of losing this game and by thinking such things so I'll let it slide for now. But there's no way you can be certain ND crushes UM if Crist stays in. UM left a bunch of points on the field, too, and things could've just as easily turned really bad for ND, Crist or no Crist.
September 12th, 2010 at 10:56 AM ^
love the emotion +1. all you gotta say is scoreboard. 4 of the last 5. won it in the last :27 seconds. won last years w/ :12 seconds remaining. we won the game.
September 12th, 2010 at 2:19 PM ^
we're improving by 15 seconds every year. by 2012 we will win with a minute left!
September 12th, 2010 at 11:47 AM ^
If you can show me someone other than a ND player picking up the ball in the endzone then I will agree that it was a bad no call and the refs messed up big time. It was a stupid move by Jones that could have cost ND the game. But complaining about that without knowing who had the ball is pretty stupid.
With Crist in the game, the ND offense averaged 9.2 yards per play and scored all 24 points, and the defense also held UM to 3.8 yards per play (217 yards on 56 plays) and 7 points
Without Crist the ND offense averaged 4.7 yards per play 0 points and threw 2 ints, and the defense gave up 9.8 per play, and 21 total points.
It was 2 very different teams that ND put on the field with and without Crist. ND played well enough to win the game but not for 4 quarters because Crist was out of the game with a freak injury. UM still won the game and still deserves the W, I am not disputing that at all I just don't view it as a full Loss for ND, not like last years team.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:26 PM ^
Crist played corner too?? I wish we had a QB that could take snaps there..
September 12th, 2010 at 12:30 PM ^
Show some dignity, dude. You aren't going to find anyone to agree w/ you on a Michigan board. May want to pack it up, claim some form of "not full loss" victory and head to your own board till next year.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:38 PM ^
If you don't want to hear what I have to say then don't come into a thread that includes my screen name. Pretty easy fix for you
September 12th, 2010 at 1:25 PM ^
i love hearing it. Your whining reinforces that WE WON. however, IMO, you are embarrasing yourself somewhat with the coulda/shoulda/woulda's and not a full loses. In my experience, you'd get full agreeement from ND fans everywhere, just not amongst your opponents. Stay as long as you like.
September 12th, 2010 at 1:09 PM ^
I actually agree with him. The difference in offensive production with Crist in and out was night and day - I'm convinced that our defense would have let up more points had he been in the whole game.
Regardless, that's just one factor among many. No point in arguing too much about it. Michigan got the win and that's all that matters now.
September 12th, 2010 at 4:29 PM ^
September 12th, 2010 at 4:42 PM ^
It was ruled a TD on the field, don't they have to prove without a doubt that wasn't true before overturning the ruling on the field?
Crist being in the game was a huge factor for ND and UM in this game, the drive numbers show that.
September 12th, 2010 at 7:03 PM ^
Just that he didn't have the ball before it went in the endzone, which would negate the Touchdown. Which he didn't. They don't THEN have to prove some Notre Dame guy DIDN'T pick it up. Touchback, our ball, 7 less points. Unless you've found that angle that shows some ND guy ended up with it.
I'm not saying it wasn't a huge factor...I'm saying is the drive numbers don't show what other factors may have changed if he played. If you think players and coaches do the same job when you're up 2 TDs vs. a crappy QB than they do in a tight game with a good one, you're crazy. Sure, there's a measurable change in QBs. But there's a Butterfly Effect too. Which can't really be measured, which makes what if's silly.
Actually, I'm more curious how happy you are that he put Crist back in. It didn't seem like his injury was something you should be playing another half of football with. Dude was working the glassy-eyes the whole first half. Being Notre Dame, and a place that tries to hold itself as a place a step above, much like Michigan, were you glad to see your coach risk him for a (tangible) chance at beating us?
September 12th, 2010 at 8:31 PM ^
It was ruled a TD on the field, the play wasn't challenged by the booth or UM. Yes the replay shows him dropping the ball well before he is in the endzone. But for all I know the ref saw him drop it and a ND guy pick it up, I thought I remembered seeing it on the ground but that was it. All I know is it wasn't overturned, and there wasn't a UM player close to picking it up.
I understand what you mean, just don't necessarily agree with it all.
Staff and physicians weren't going to let him back in if he had a concussion, especially with all the care they're giving Wenger still after his concussion in practice. They still don't think Crist had one, he has apparently tested out fine with everything. Not sure what happened, but I wasn't angry or anything; I have no reason to think they would send him out if they thought it was a dangerous situation for him.
September 13th, 2010 at 1:55 AM ^
I don't think the Big10 coaches can actually challenge a call. Doesn't it have to be signaled from the ref upstairs? At best the coach can burn a timeout to give them more time to look at it, but I could be wrong.
September 13th, 2010 at 12:08 PM ^
I'm not sure what the agreement is between an independent and a Big Ten team. I would guess it's the same.
Of course, that would involve someone showing a replay before the ND team is lined up for the extra point...you know, kinda like NBC did when they showed our player stepping out of bounds one second later, 20 times.
September 12th, 2010 at 6:36 PM ^
And that comment made me lose even more respect for you Irish. Give our guys the credit they deserve. When that ball was dropped, it should have been M ball on the 20.
September 12th, 2010 at 11:12 PM ^
You're cherry picking those numbers...
"when Crist was/wasn't in..."
Nice. But combining Rees's performance and Montana's isn't really fair. Montana had numbers very similar to Crist for the time he was in. Rees only threw 2 passes (an INT and an incompletion).
As a matter of fact...
If you take out the 95 yard bomb they're almost identical aside from Montana not actually getting on the board.
Both would have a completion average of right arrond 50%.
Crist would have only averaged about a yard more per completion.
Both had an INT.
Montana ran for a few more yards (same attempts) and didn't have a sack like Crist did.
Montana led ND on an 80 (nearly) yard drive before the half and probably would have scored if there had been time. For the quarter and 4 minutes or so he was in Montana put up numbers that were very "Crist-like". I see little reason to assume that the outcome would have been very different had Crist had stayed in.
September 12th, 2010 at 11:12 AM ^
True freshman in. 38-0. And you guys didn't even take Henne out. Michigan TOOK Crist out of that game with hard hitting.
September 12th, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
you don't need to "dodge" the bullet when you can merely out run said bullet :)
September 12th, 2010 at 12:20 PM ^
It's a little bit of a stretch to conclude that ND would have WON the game if Crist was in for all of the first half. You're assuming that the UM defense wouldn't have gotten a bit more familiar with Crist and that the UM offensive play-calling would have been the exact same regardless of the score. Though to be fair, if I was on your end, I would definitely tell myself the same thing.
September 12th, 2010 at 12:37 PM ^
Its the 2 ints that Montana and Rees gave up that brought me to that conclusion as much as the offensive stats. Crist would have a pretty big cushion to come up with one more TD in 2 quarters. It is like you said though.