Question About THJ and the 12 Point Lead
So as everyone realizes, once we had the 12-point lead against Purdue yesterday, we went 0 for our next 7 and eventually 1 of 9. That was a chance to start to put the game away in the first half, and we let Purdue back into it.
Part of how we built that lead were some aggressive plays by THJ getting to the hoop.
When we had the lead, there was a 2 on 1 breakawy with Hardaway leading with the ball. THJ kept the ball and missed the layup. To me it looked like an easy bounce pass for an easier layup. That was the beinning of the 1-9 shooting drought.
So what does everyone else think?
- THJ is one of our guys that needs to attack the basket and should clearly keep it and try to make and/or draw the foul
- Fielder's choice: 50/50 whether he keeps or dishes, but doesn't really matter
- With a teammate streaking along with you, PASS THE BALL
- Something else
I was actually expecting him to throw the oop to Robinson on that play
Now that you say it, I was, too. I was thinking about how much that would have demoralized the Purdue players AND fans.
It just looked like the easier play from where I was sitting because THJ had a man in his face and Robinson didnt.
This is almost identitcal to Burke's play during the State game. We were going on that run and we had a 3 on 1 fast break and he decides to lay it up instead of oop it or pass to GRIII (which would have brought the house down) and misses. That's when State goes on that run to tie it up towards the end of the game. Similar situations but of course, you expect both Burke and THJ to make layups
Maybe it is a lack of confidence in GRIII in traffic (not making the bounce pass). And I agree that you expect the layup to fall (or to draw the foul). Notice however, that at a reasonably important time in the game last night, Burke did make the pass to Spike. It wouldn't be hard to think about a little less confidence in Spike's ability to finish than GRIII, but Burke made the pass anyway.
It depends on the play and what is best for the TEAM to get the best possible result. Attack, pass, finish, get a foul - he should be able to do any/all of those when the situation presents itself. He has some problems finishing at times, but he should be aggressive and committed to his action regardless.
I might take some heat for this, but there's a tiny bit of selfishness going on with the basketball team. There are multiple occasions each game where Burke, Hardaway, and Stauskas try to score when the best move would be to pass the ball. They end up taking bad shots at times, which sometimes costs us points.
Overall, I know Burke and Hardaway are probably our best players, and they're both pretty good finishers...but they probably don't share as much as they should. I don't think they're selfish to the point of being cancerous, but it's not quite optimal, either.
Ive kinda noticed that too with THJ even before this year. Your right though its not really a major issue its just annoying when its obvious and it happens.
I have noticed the same thing from those three all year. With Stauskas it tends to happen when he has been queit for a long stretch, and I feel like he is just forcing the issue too hard so that he feels involved in the game. With Tim and Trey I have a hard time determining when it is selfish, and when that is how Beilein is instructing them to play.
I don't know that it's selfishness so much as a lack of trust in the offense when things start to go bad. I think too often when we're in a drought, players stop runing the offense and decide to try to break up streaks on their own. This isn't limited to THJ and Burke, either. I can recall Stauskas and Lavert doing it at times this season. Heck, in the Purdue game, even Albrecht overdribbled the ball several times trying to make something happen.
FWIW, I don't think the play in question was one of these moments. THJ got a layup at the rim that he'll make 9 times out of 10, and, from what I recall, the spacing between Hardaway and GRIII wasn't ideal (I think they were too close together, making either an alley oop or a bounce pass awkward, and those are the only passes you want to throw on a 2 on 1).
I agree with this. I've seen it a number of times from THJ, which is mostly why I started the thread.
Stauskas is a different case. He's obviously trying to be agressive and get to the hoop -- and he can do it. He either needs to get a little bit better at it (which partly comes from in-game experience) or a little more realistic about his ability to get off a quality shot. Sometimes he tries, but ends up with a really wild (bad) effort.
I'm more inclined to say, "Burke can do what he wants to do," with his stats, leadership, and confidence.
Not sure that they are being "selfish" but Burke in particular looks to shoot first. Fortunately, his FG% is solid. While it is nip picking, he isn't a highly skilled passer although he makes plenty of assists. Most games I yell at the TV because he either doesn't see or decides not to pass to an open man. Again, I'm nip picking but he just isn't that fluid with his passes - particularly alley oops.
But I disagree; I think Occam is helpful here. UM has been missing a lot of open shots, shots they made earlier in the year.
To my eye, UM's still making the appropriate passes into space to get the open looks (as they had earlier), but missed shots have a way of coloring our overall view of "what's wrong with the offense"
I don't think the majority the time it's the case. For instance, last night, the defender never really stopped ball on THJ. These are good player, they do and should have confidence that they can finish around the basket, and for the most part those were shots that they should have made.
Michigan missed a lot of really easy buckets around the rim in the first half against Purdue, either by looking/waiting for contact, not focusing through to the end of the play, or for goodness sakes use the damn backboard on shots around the rim.
Look, Burke is a very good player, but he's not above occasional criticism.
You bring up Darius Morris, but Morris played on a team with a freshman Hardaway and guys like Douglass, Novak, and a young Jordan Morgan. They averaged 66.5 points per game.
Burke plays on a team with an improved Hardaway and Morgan, plus Stauskas and Glenn Robinson III. They're averaging about 76.5 points per game, so there are more assists to be had.
Certainly that's partly because of Burke, but that doesn't mean he makes perfect decisions every time there's a chance to dish it off. The team often gets two or three guys clustered at the basket because the ball handler attacks the basket rather than spacing the floor properly and making the defender choose which guy to guard. It takes away the passing option and it gives them a poor angle to the basket, since now they have to lay it directly in the basket rather than attacking from the right/left and potentially using the backboard.
It was 5-0 when this happened. He should have passed the ball, GRIII was coming down the lane for what would have been an easy dunk. Having said that, it's possible Tim didn't know he was there due to a lack of communication. He beat his guy but got caught too far from the rim to make a finger roll which is what he tried to do. Either way, this play was pretty insignificant as they pushed the lead farther and it was one of about 5 layups in the game that should be converted 90% of the time. Tim had a good game aside from the foul trouble.
Yeah, I think you're right. It wasn't that it kicked off the scoring drought for us, it was that it led to Purdue's first points. Either way, I think the discussion is a good one.
Regarding THJ, Brian's point about THJ seeming to have issues when he's actually doing quite well applies here. It isn't at all that this was one of many things THJ did that were bad, just that it seemed like a missed opportunity. Overall, it was a good game from Timmy.
...when Hardaway and Burke should both pass the ball during fastbreak opportunites to give the open slasher an easy basket...but thats probably easier said than done considering they are both flying towards the basket and see daylight before the next spilt-second when the daylight is no longer there
everbody thinks he should have passed because we get the TV angle and can see all the "easy passes" but racing down the court with a man on you it's a split second decision to pass or score. If he scores does anybody even care? No none of us would be complaining about it except maybe a few basketball perfectionists.
Agree with many here that passing may have been the better move in retrospect. I wonder if it's a possibility that THJ just wanted to take it and be aggressive to get into an offensive groove. It's well known he's been in a bit of a slump, sometimes those easy points can bust you out of a slump.
Also, per UMHoops analysis a few weeks ago THJ is actually the most efficient player on a breakaway. So him missing this layup appears to just be bad luck. If our most efficient player has the chance to score and help him find an offensive groove, I don't have much problem with him trying.
When G-Rob III made the layup off the dribble rather than the dunk!? Possibly a fake, but with his power, easy score?...
When G-Rob III made the layup off the dribble rather than the dunk!? Possibly a fake, but with his power, easy score?...
I honestly think that Hardaway can be a bit selfish at times. It's a little frustrating to watch him huck up terrible shots. He does it quite a bit. I think we tend to forgive him when he is shooting well, but when he's off, it really hurts the team. As you all know, we aren't exactly awesome at offensive rebounding.
Selfishness was not an issue in this game and hasn't been an issue all season. I don't know where the selfishness talk is coming from.
In this game the lead was lost because M missed multiple shots in the lane. Finishing was an issue not selfishness. If M converts their layups they probably hold a double digit lead at the half.
Pretty obvious, especially in hindsight, that he should have passed the ball.
Better question: Why does one poor decision (amongst many) in a single basketball game need an entire thread, especially on a play that did occurred early and did not have a major impact on the game?
Pretty obvious, especially in hindsight, that he should have passed the ball.
Better question: Why does one poor decision (amongst many) in a single basketball game need an entire thread, especially on a play that did occurred early and did not have a major impact on the game?
Although I agree that GRIII didn't take a good angle to the basket (I get the impression he's more comfortable running the break on the right side of the court), what propelled him under the basket was pressure from Rapheal Davis's forearm applied to the small of his back. Not a foul when you're playing at home, apparently...