somehow we're only 124th
Henson was not on the team. He was in the same class as me - we came in in 1998.
Our 1997 QB depth chart was as follows:
Starter - Brian Griese (Sr.)
2nd - Tom Brady (So.)
3rd - Scott Dreisbach (Jr with 15 career starts)
4th - Jason Kapsner (RS Fr., former blue-chip recruit)
So we had four talented players, none of whom was a true freshman. I'm not sure if our current depth is better than that. Denard might well be better than any of those guys though (yes, even the future Super Bowl MVP).
I don't know if we can win in the Big Ten with Devin. He is talented but not ready to carry Michigan through Big Ten play for an extended period of time IMO.
Dude looked like a true freshman out there. Bah!
Yeah, like the first drive he came in and hit the 30+ yard pass. It was a completion but at the same time was an arm punt. He also needs to learn how to get upfield and run the ball better.
Can't speak for what he looked like (internet streaming is choppy here in Europe and damn AFN hasn't been broadcasting the Michigan games...) but 7/10 w/ 1 TD and 0 INT...
That, plus a dropped touchdown and one called back on a penalty
He looked like Pryor as a freshman out there, just a little slower and a little better of a passer.
I don't know about that... Devin made WAY better decisions than Pryor was making 3/4 of the way through his sophomore season.
I was thinking maybe he was there on the 96-97 team, but I couldn't remember. I know I always thought he was pretty damn good, and better than griese. Too bad he broke both? legs eventually and couldn't even make it onto the raiders team.
Not only was he around then, he also was in 1998, but both Brady and Henson managed to beat him out. A case of a talented but inexperienced guy and a true freshman going ahead of the experienced guy in the depth chart . . . sound familiar?
good athlete, good arm, bad accuracy. similar to demetrius brown, imo. griese had much better touch and accuracy. that's why he won the job; comparable to grbac.
I wouldn't compre Griese to Grbac. Grbac was huge, immobile, and had a cannon for an arm. He was a rich man's Navarre (better accuracy).
Griese was sort of in between Brady and Forcier - accurate but not a big arm, okay feet, maybe just a hair undersized.
The depth at QB is excellent, but Robinson is the only real difference maker right now.
Forcier is probably a solid Big 10 QB, but doesn't seem to have the mobility or zip on the ball we'd like. Take a look at the one real downfield ball he threw--it was way underthrown, and was basically asking to get picked off. On a couple of other throws, it seemed like the ball was taking forever to get to the receiver.
Gardner has awesome potential. He throws a long ball better than Robinson or Forcier, but has a lot to learn.
definitely could use some more time in the weight room but he looked great and was unbelievably accurate all day.
Forcier really needs to calm down vice weight room time. He reminds me of my high school QB--he tries to "make something happen" on every play instead of playing within the offense. Like the hype video said, when he's off, he's off. When he's on, he's really _____ on.
He's not a bad kid, but he still has more to do.
i may agree with you next year, if everyone stays...
we had two solid young backups henne's frosh year, clayton richard and matt gutierrez, but neither back up stayed.
In 1989, Michigan has a starter in Michael Taylor who never lost a Big 10 game he started in and his backup was Elvis Grbac who, frankly, is the best QB in school history*
Thats a pretty mean and varied 1-2 punch atop the depth. But, it was only for that season.
*only players whose careers are over are included.
I'm not sure he was the best Michigan QB on his team. Grbac had better teams, but I'd rather have Todd Collins as my QB. And that's not even bringing up Harbaugh, Griese, Brady, Henson or Henne. jmblue compared him to Navarre with better accuracy, but I'd say even John had it over Elvis from the neck up. Grbac did a fine job and didn't come anywhere near shaming the University or anything...but he wouldn't even make my top 5 in the modern era (without going back to the Mad Magicians or anything...who might be more like Denard than any of the recent guys).
I liked Elvis, but it did seem like he had a knack for throwing INTs at the worst possible time.
He started for three straight Big 10 champions, lost only 2 Big 10 games in 30 starts, and did so putting up numbers better than just about everybody in program history. The only people who beat him statistically are Navarre and Henne and both of them had 500more passing attempts.
How many QBs have won a Rose Bowl for Michigan in the last 40 years? Four. Lets expand that list to BCS-caliber bowls and the list only grows to 6. Grbac is on those lists with Wangler, Harbaugh, Brown, Griese and Brady. His numbers are better than all of theirs.
As for prefering Todd Collins, I dont know know what to say. Grbac's immediate replacement did not run the offense nearly as efficient or as potently as Elvis did. He never won a Big 10 title, never took the team to a BCS-type of bowl game and didnt have a winning record against our three main rivals, while Elvis had three times as many wins over the rivals as he did losses.
You can make a case for some of the folks you listed, but I think I have a much better argument than you think.
Because they played less, but then use that as an excuse for why Elvis's are less than Henne and and Navarre's. It works both ways or neither way. If it's winning BCS bowls, or whatever, then Griese is the best ever...he won a National Championship. But you're not taking into account the teams around them, or who they played. Defense, or other offensive players. Henne lost a Rose Bowl vs. Texas playing brilliantly. Grbac lost one playing badly, and won one handing off to Tyrone.
I say Collins, because Collins had a better arm, and threw more accurately, even if he didn't get to complete as many passes. (NFL longevity has kinda agreed). Collins record wasn't as good because he lost one of those once a decade NFL offensive lines (like we had after Hutch and Backus left, and what Rich was left with his first year) the year before. That's why that team was weaker. It had talent, but it was very young (watch eventually very good Rod Payne look like he had never been on a football field vs. MSU). And he wasn't throwing to a Heisman trophy winning (just his very talented #2 receiver...but not quit the 1-2 punch).
And let's face it, the Big Ten wasnt that great. It was the Cooper Years, not what Navarre and Henne had to deal with. No Penn State yet. Not good Wisconsin and Northwestern and Purdue. Frankly, in a number of those Grbac years, MSU was probably the 2nd best team in the Big 10 (and Iowa probably 3rd). That should tell you all you need to know. Just saying you cant attribute team accomplishments solely to the QB. Otherwise early 70's QBs that lost like 3 games would have to be considered.
There's an eye test to it. Managing a team, and doing what you have to? There was Griese. Moxie and Harbaugh. Maybe pure talent Henne. And while I never thought he'd be a long term starter in the NFL I really believed if I had a game to win, I'd want senior year Brady at QB. I believe he could come back from anything. I'm just not sure what category I'd rank Elvis best in.
Look, he was excellent, and i don't want to bag on him too much. He had a tendency for badly timed INTs, and I didn't like how on occasion he'd throw his O-line or someone under the bus (vs. Navarre who took more shot than anyone ever and never pointed any fingers), but he was a great Michigan QB, truly brought in the modern QB style and NFL exodus...he was "my" QB. Great. But not the best.
Elvis didnt have significantly more attempts than anybody else on this list, but the two people ahead of his on most of these numbers had 500 more than he did.
He has prolific stats, big 10 titles and a dominant record as a starter on his side, but somehow you'd rather have Collins because his OL wasnt as good. Come on. Grbac might not be the best in program history, but you're absolutely on crack if you dont think he's in the top-5.
All you've really offered is species revisionist history as reasonings to dismiss Grbac. For example, you cite his era in comparison to Collins. They played in basically the same era. One was .500 against State, OSU and ND, the other was .750. I know which one I want starting for me.
With your own post. You said best all time. Now it's down to top 5. Top 5...maybe. He wouldn't be in my top 5 of the modern era, for sure. But it could be argued. And he certainly wouldn't be in a top 5 all time. But I don't know that it's fair to compare such different eras. But Brady, Henne, Griese, Henson, Harbaugh (who I didn't mention, who just recently was statistically declared on here to have the best season of a QB in Michigan history)...I'd take them all over Grbac.
You're stuck on Collins a little too much. I said Grbac might not have been the best QB on his team. Just that it could be argued (which I did), not that it was definitive. I'm not revising history...I was there to witness it. If you think the Big Ten back then was as good as it was after Penn State joined the League, Wisconsin became very good from god-awful, and Northwestern and Purdue stopped being laughingstocks, as well as OSU transitioning from Cooper to Tressel, I don't know what to tell you. But that's not revisionist. Grbac played a Wisonsin team that we beat 41-3 (and beat the previous year 24-0, in what Bo would call the worst 24-0 win he'd ever seen. That's how bad they were). Collins got Wisconsin Big Ten Championship teams and a Penn State team that went undefeated (and who never had a tougher game than vs. us). The League underwent a massive overhaul. That's just fact.
I'm sure he was your favorite growing up as a kid or something, and he was a great quarterback. But the fact of the matter is I questioned you on calling him the best of all time, and you've already backtracked on that. So my original point was right. If you want, we can rank them all in our minds, but that's probably a thread for the off-season.
however saying that this year is the BEST QB depth historically seems way too bold. I remember when we had Greise and Brady on the team, as well as Brady and Henson. Not to mention countless others in our past that were just blow away good. That being said, I think we have a great QB stable this year and therefore one of the strongest offenses in the country. GO BLUE!!
i would not trade our 3 deep at QB for anyone else's in college football, but let's not get carried away. it was Bowling Green folks, and I look forward to see how Denard plays and stays healthy against the Big Ten while DG and TF comes in for mop up time. Beating the buckeyes should be a part of being the best anything at michigan and the last QB to do that was John Navarre. It's a long way to go, but it sure does look like a lot of fun.
I disagree. This is still a team game and IMO you can't evaluate an individual's greatness based on the team's result. I never bought into that "you have to win a championship to be considered one of the great ones" way of thinking. A great player stuck on a poor or average team is still a great player, even if the team doesn't accomplish great things.
I think that our three deep at QB is better than anyone in the country. At least from what I have seen so far.
perhaps i shouldn't have named a specific team, but my point is that the best players play at a high level against the best competition. no one in the 3 deep has yet to do that in their young careers. the buckeyes have owned the big 10 for too long and any one of the 3 QBs will be perceived as great if any of them reverse the trend (with the team) and gets Michigan getting back to being a Big 10 bully.
i believe in the "team game" concept, but RichRod's offense is so dependent on QB play, the team will go succeed or fail with the QB play against the best competition (cough**OSU***cough). there is no WR, TE, OL, RB on this team who can carry the team if the QB is having an off day against the best competition (cough*OSU*cough).