QB Ceilings

I find it interesting when people mention Tate they say that he has been so well coached that his ceiling isn't quite as high.

That's not what people are saying at all. They're saying he's closer to whatever his ceiling is, so his improvement won't be as fast or as noticeable.

the premise here and never really understood this meme that tate has already been coached up to his potential. i know his parents paid for a special QB coach (or at least i seemed to recall that) but frankly, if the combination of rod smith, rr, and calvin mcgee cant bring more to the table than some schmo in san diego, than michigan football has some serious problems.

in other words, its hard for me to believe that tate's potential has plateaued because he received mediocre coaching as a high school student.

I'm with you that just because a player had been well-coached doesn't mean they've achieved their potential. However it does mean the someone with less coaching could stand to make more initial improvement. But football is a game where even the best QB in the NFL is learning every game, every play, and learning how to improve. It's a mental game where you can never reach your ceiling.

Where I disagree with you is on your take of the O-line, or any position for that matter. While there are physical gifts that set some of the marquee players up for greatness, every really good football player has to constantly learn to make reads, to win the small chess matches against the guy across from him. In short the game is a mental game at every position - it's just more obvious at the QB position.

for Mike Cox:

1. Tate still has a ways to go before he hits his ceiling. He needs to stop throwing picks and he needs to learn how to run the option. He can still become an extremely dangerous quarterback, capable of putting up crazy point totals against teams both good and bad.

2. Even if Tate is almost as high as he can go, that's still pretty damn high. Look at what he did in the second half of the Big Ten season without his top two running backs and with poor pass blocking. Look at what he did in the fourth quarter against Michigan State. Forcier is the most accurate passer I have ever seen at Michigan. He just needs to learn better decision making and he needs to learn the option.

I think that the idea is really that Tate just is not the same physical specimen and athlete that DG or Robinson are. He won't ever have the zip/arm strength that Robinson puts on the ball or the power that DG can put behind it (because he's 6'4") and he won't ever have the type of moves/foot speed that those two can bring, because his body just isn't built to do it.

However I do agree that he still has a lot of room to improve because he still has to learn the offense. This RichRod offense is not something a QB can come in and learn in one off-season. No QB would reach his full potential in this offense until his 3rd or 4th year. So because of that, yes I think he has plenty of room to improve.

Just saying there's less room for improvement. Tate may go from like a 58% comp pct to 63% but Denard can go from his like 41% to 55% which just makes him MORE improved on a year to year basis. Also, of course the coaches can teach more about being a QB in a scheme they developed than a guy that could only teach basics. Denard I believe is getting in that close because of his speed and ability to make that read option a real threat. Don't worry, Tate will still improve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QgZOkE6CM

for Craig Roh:

It's all about Denard, people!! Where the H have you been?

Anyway, I dont think the meme is that Tate's ceiling isnt high, only that he's closer to it because of all the great coaching he's had coming in and during his early development

Jokes first: at Tate's height, pretty much every ceiling is going to be high. But really, IMHO on talent alone, Tate has a very high ceiling. He has, however, an evident height limitation that forces him to be a scrambler. So, in order to reach his ceiling, he needs some support...metaphorically, he needs some platform shoes, stilts and a pogo stick.

The good news: Tate will have a lot of good support on this team. An excellent and deep backfield will take the pressure off. A veteran offensive line will take the pressure off. Tate will improve with each improvement the team as a whole makes, because Tate can then rely on his 'playmaker' ability.

Conclusion: Because he's in a 'playmaker' offense, he has a high ceiling, dependent in many respects on his supporting cast's ability to improve from last year. If Tate was in a pro-style offense, he'd be a lot closer to his ceiling than he is here at Michigan.

should paint "Protect the football!" on the ceiling.

In the strictest terms, Tate will always have a lower ceiling than Denard because he's not as physically gifted. That's a non-arguable point. However, if Tate is below his ceiling, he could still be a very good college quarterback - so it's really a non-issue.

I don't consider Tate to be particularly close to his ceiling, but that's because I kept watching after Notre Dame...

I'm still not sold on the Denard starting meme, but competition is a positive and I would like to have a good backup, even if Denard never starts a game.

there is no ceiling.

Forget the 2010 season for a moment. Denard, by the time he is a junior should have a very good grasp of the reads as well as a full understanding of the playbook. With good coaching and development, Denard should be a dynamic college QB during his final 2 campaigns.

Why spend 2 years training Denard to be a QB and then have him switch positions? I see no reason why Denard can't excel at the most vital position on the field. I am all for Tate and Denard being on the field at same time but I am also for Denard being a 4 year QB at Michigan.

If upon entering football practices August, 2011 Denard isn't grasping the nuances of the QB position in this offense, then sure, have Denard switch postions. I fully expect Denard to be up to the challenge of being a QB RR feels he can win with, so let's reap the benefits.

that if Tate starts at 90 then 100 is only 10 away whereas if Denard starts at 60 and gets to 90 after a year this looks like--in fact IS--more measurable progess.

This does not tell us whose 100 (full capacity) is higher.

when discussing two QBs entering their sophomore year. With all the freshmen mistakes made by both of these players, I hardly think their "ceiling" is anywhere in sight. I'd love to ask Tom Brady his thoughts on a players ceiling.

guys, I'll believe Denard can be a full-time QB when he proves it in a game. I'm not going to buy into all the hype we're hearing. The dude is a flat-out athlete, and has big play threat written all over him, but on a down-to-down basis, I don't know if he can be a game-manager. When all is said and done, I think we're going to see basically the same rotation as last year, except both guys should be improved.

The one thing that was really refreshing about having Tate at QB last year was a general sense that on each play, we had a confident, capable QB directing the offense. Excepting the OSU game's 4 picks, Tate was NOT prone to int's at all. I'm not trying to say the guy is jesus, or the greatest thing ever, but he's capable. With a year of experience and a chance to settle into his role, I have to think he'll continue to be the MAIN guy. I have a hard time imagining that Denard is magically going to become Donovan McNabb and be the total package QB that these practice reports seem to indicate. He'll contribute, and I'm sure there will be some games where he dominates, but what better way to keep a defense off balance than to have 2 guys who excel in different ways splitting time.

Now, when Devin Gardner gets it all online, however... I have no idea how you resolve that... Wonder if Tate 'Matt Saracen' Forcier can play WR! haha.

IMO the biggest factor in projecting the "ceiling" of a quarterback is their football intelligence. Yes, they also must have at least decent arm strength and accuracy, but they wouldn't even be at Michigan if that didn't already exist on a certain level. But the ability of a quarterback to read the defense and make quick, accurate, adjustments is something that is difficult to determine about quarterbacks when they are still in high school. Most high schools run very basic schemes compared to those at the upper level of college teams. Over time, this will most likely determine who plays, since physical flaws such as arm strength or accuracy can at least be somewhat covered up by the offensive scheme a team runs. It is a situation still in flux, and it will be fun to watch.