The fact that the ND blocker illegally blocked Mouton in the back and then hit him again after he was down has nothing to do with this! Mouton should have been called for a 100-yard (yeah that's right 100-yard) penalty for grazing the ND player's helmet and the refs should have awarded ND 10 points. It's only fair.
The punch exists...
All I see is a block in the back.
He clearly should not have punched him, but the lineman also shouldn't have tried to dive on top of him. The punch is worse, but the punch likely came as a result of a giant O-lineman landing on a hybrid LB.
Should not have have one play with Mouton as a participant.
Mouton should be suspended for as long as Weis suspended Zibby for stomping on the GaTech player or for the same length of time that Weis suspended those 2 thugs for gaining up on a Penn State player 50 yards away from the action.
Wait, Weis didn't suspend them?!?!?!
In all seriousness though...we don't really want to stoop to Weis level and let stuff go unpunished.
I dont what the discipline should be, but if the coaches see this, and I imagine they will/did, he should receive some sort of punishment. Maybe taken out of the starting lineup for EMU and going through a couple Barwis hell workouts.
Obviously he was upset by a cheap play by the ND lineman, but you cannot respond in that way. Given the time of the game when that occurred it probably would not have cost the team that much had the refs caught it, but if that had happenned on NDs last possession it could have cost em big.
no excuse. if we want the other team not to give excuses, we can't give them excuses to give. he should be held out the first half of the next game or at least given the treatment in "barwis beach"
Edit: damn me for being a slow typer. yay to the guys above me who agree!
Sean Mcdonough sounds like Satan in slow-mo.
Yep. Gotta sit him for a half this Saturday.
I've certainly seen way worse, but still no excuse for punching a guy. I really don't see anything dirty about the play of the ND O-lineman. He played to the whistle. No ref is ever going to call a block in the back for that.
I would say the initial block was legal. The OL, apparently Sr C Eric Olsen then got run past and pushed Mouton in the back. I most certainly HAVE seen penalties for this in the past.
It's called a block from behind or a block in the back. It's equivalent to a hold in terms of penalties.
Trying to land on him/headbut him at the end is also just a classless move.
As much as I like Michigan, I can't see that play that way. Any O-lineman is taught to go to the whistle and if that means burying someone to the ground and keeping him down, that's fine. As far as the block in the back, it's pretty weak and is within the tackle box so there isn't too much to complain about. Punch is pretty weak too and there should be a slap on the wrist to appease Jabba.
Agree that (a) the initial block was legal, (b) OL are taught to play to the whistle and (c) what Mouton did was wrong.
Howeva, the block in the back was 7 yards downfield, which is hardly in the tackle box. That may be more of a testament to how badly our front 7 got pushed around more than anything.
Looks like he caught him in the jaw with an uppercut.
Yeah looked like Mouton got that move from Mortal Kombat II.
He should sit the EMU game. You are really letting down your teammates with a reckless move like that, that kind of stuff cannot happen.
Mouton must be the weakest guy on the team! The nd guy showed no reaction at all. Looked to me like he just shoved the guy.
shoved him...in the jaw, with his fist.
If you watch closely on the slow motion replay just after he punches him you will notice the ND player falling to his left. To me it almost looks as if he was about to drop out cold. I had somewhat of a mispent youth marred by fighting and various other illegal activities. Trust me when I say that a quick short uppercut like that does some damage, especially when the guy throwing it is Mouton's size and you aren't expecting it. That has been my experience anyway.
The falling to the left couldn't have been from the shove he was getting from Cissoko?
I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, but I don't think he should miss any PT for that. Maybe some extra work outs. Game time... really??? If it wasn't for someone having watched the game for the 20th time, this probably would have never been caught.
... punching a dude is a cheap shot. Can't really defend that action... but, don't have to. It is irrelevant as to the outcome of the game. Refs miss calls and it's easy to see why this one was missed. It was quick, subtle and away from the play.
Be interesting to see what, if anything, comes from it.
edit: Really? People are damn quick on these boards. This POV was made several times by the time I watched the video and typed my response! Glad to see I'm not alone though.
I was more impressed by Stevie Brown's left cross to the ND dude's facemask (see lower right). Suspension totally.
Yeah, the nd player must have been concussed after that!
is paying off big time....
in case you didn't notice, he punched the guy's helmet. I hope his knuckles are okay.
It looks bad in slow-mo but at normal speed it doesn't look bad at all... I still don't think it was much of a punch. Definitely not something to be suspended over.
When I saw this in the stands and no penalty was called, I knew we got away with one in the game.
Hopefully Coach Rodriguez does not let it fly, however.
game. Is it terrible. No. Is it against the rules. Yes. Should it be called. Sure.
But how many times do you miss guys getting their eyes gouged out in the middle of the pile or any of the other things that goes on in the pile.
Yeah he should probably sit for a quarter or whatever but IME it's not like he took a full swing at him. I'd really like to see the end of the play more and see what the guy that took the "punch" does. If he just walks away he obviously thought "meh" but if he sort of comes after Mouton then yes it was not cool.
You sound like a Domer here. He threw a punch. Weak or not, he threw a punch. That's poor discipline.
The ND guy didn't do shit after the "punch" he didn't care.
Seriously, how many damn screen names do you have? Every damn comment of yours I see is negged, usually multiple times, yet your points continue to climb meteorically. Hmmmm...
Word on the street is he gets a +1 for every neg. All the negging has inflated his total.
and then neg me so that it shows a neg but really I'm getting +1. Apparently people are doing it to screw with me and others who "care about points"
Yet whenever I post I have people who bring up my point total all the time
that was weak
It's at 3:18 of the video.
Where did this holier than thou attitude come from? Suspend Mouton for that? Yeah, right!
I agree with you. No flag, no harm. Why would you suspend a guy for that? Silly.
But if the refs HAD seen it, he'd have been ejected.
so we tell ND to get over it bc the video proves he was out of bounds but you make the EXACT SAME argument - that, while it exists, it didn't get called so whatever. lame.
he should sit for a quarter and find himself working his voluntary ass off to remain on the 1-2 deep for Indiana
I guess some folks get upset when they are provided a video link showing two players obviously throwing punches at each other in full view of the refs and there wasn't even a penalty called.
Kind of makes the Mouton incident look trivial and not worth all the calls for "Off With His Head!"
3, 2, 1 .....
While I agree that Mouton should not have responded like that under any circumstances, his actions were a product of more than just a block in the back. I think the big issue (for Mouton) was how the ND lineman seemed to go out of his way to slam into Mouton after he was already on the ground. The block in the back is a football play, the second part didn't seem like it and could have been called for unnecessary roughness. Hopefully the Big Ten will take that into consideration when reviewing Front-Butt's "I'm not gonna blame the refs, but actually I am" video. It is a rivalry game after all and things tend to get chippy.
That being said, RR needs to set a precedent that things like this will not be tolerated. Bench him for the EMU game. That will send a clear message to Mouton, the team, the Big Ten, the media, and anyone else paying attention that some things about the Michigan program haven't changed.
Fuck the slow-mo. Shit doesnt happen in slow mo.
In real time it looks like nothing. He pushed his facemask. wooooo big deal. if u played football you'd know this shit happens on almost every play. did any of u guys watch braylon vs chris gamble? when they were smacking each other's helmets, and coming to blows on every play? what about plax vs david terrell? when they were going at it. what about the notre dame player #74 shoving a michigan player to the ground well after the play in this same game?
if you're gonna call that shit then u might as well start calling college football a panzy league like the nfl and start calling roughing the passer on plays like the one vince wilfolk had on trent edwards last night on monday night football.
its called passion. deal with it.
Every once in awhile, I give one of my kids a forearm shiver to the face--no reason, I'm just sick of their shit. They have to deal with it.
If you wanna bitch go take up dog walking Charlie. Football ain't for the feint of heart.
if you watch it in ultra super slow 1 frame per 10 seconds, it looks bad. real time shows the real story. he went out of his way to knock, or 'punch' the guy. ok. guys certainly dont avoid bumping into each other after a play, or 'clotheslining' each other, if you prefer, either.
unsportsmanlike conduct happens all over the field. have you guys ever heard of bill romanowski? he may be insane / pure evil, but it doesnt invalidate what he says. when guys get the chance they spit, bite, claw, punch, whatever.
this was barely more than a tap and much ado about nothing.
and for those who say im just being a homer, all the people who are willing to throw down the hammer to prove their 'impartiality' are suggesting it for the EMU game. if the next game were against MSU, PSU, or OSU i bet all of the sudden very few would insist this is suspension worthy, so save the lecture.
I actually would suspend him for 3 games, EMU, IND and MSU. We are not Miami (FLA), Thug U, or whatever. I send a clear message that I don't put up with that crap. Maybe Rodriguez will whoop him hard in practice and have Barwis make him cry, I don't know.
Yeah, I get it that petty stuff happens at the bottom of piles, but Mouton should be suspended for a couple of things: 1. using a closed fist and uppercutting the ND player under the face mask 2. Doing it in clear daylight. We are very lucky we payed the refs so they wouldn't call that, but if we failed to get them their money, then he would have been flagged 15 yards and ejected... we are not MSU, so why bother acting like them or the Hurricanes?
Then we better suspend Brandon Graham for a few games because he and the wmu left tackle were slapping each others helmets during the wmu game well after the play.
Did you even watch the video of Woodson & Boston? Those were closed fists. Who was the coach then?
BTW, noob you lose all credibility with the 3 game suspension comment and the ad hominem attacks.
Agree 10000% and +1
I could care less what you think of my credibility. Woodson and Boston was 12 years ago, I am talking about now, not then.
So you condone players punching opponents?
Would you take away Charles Woodson's Heisman because he clearly punched another player, David Boston, on the helmet.
^See? He punched him.
Its a physical sport. People run as fast as the can into each other. Players hate each other. There is pride involved and so if two players are battling it out and happen to take a few shots at each other then so be it.
That's called football. If it gets too rough for you then stop watching.
If someone pisses you off during the game, do you take a cheap shot at him after the play? or do you blow him up within the context of the game, i.e. tackle, run through a block, etc.
From your post, you are saying that it is perfectly fine for a player to jack another player, after all they are running at full speed into each other and hate each other and therefore it is a part of the game? My answer to that is heck no. That is not football, that is bush league. Play the game, and if the guy pisses you off, make damn sure your team gets the victory and the last laugh.
Neg me all you want but these are rivalry games. These players dont like each other and they are going to battle to the whistle and beyond. Jake Long was famous for punishing his opponents after the whistle as was Charles Woodson. Braylon Did it. Branch did it. Woodley did it.
You can call all of those guys bush league.
I call them football players.
the context of the game. Long punished opponents by physically manhandling them, same with Woodley. Granted the Woodson/Boston incident involved punches. Show me where any of those guys used a closed hand uppercut/punch to a guys face.
15 yard penalties, game ejections nowadays is how that stuff is handled. What good does that do in the game?
Dude. Did ever ever watch Jake Long play? I love the guy, and I loved him because he would drive somebody to the ground the whistle blows and he would still be pushing/walking on them, not letting them get up. Woodley would do the same thing.
All of this shit is within the context of the game. They hit each other. The hitting doesnt always stop when the whistle blows.
Players gets shots in at each other all game. They scratch, claw, punch, slap, and battle each other play in and play out. When its Michigan Notre Dame and you're jamming a receiver at the line, or blocking someone, the play doesnt end when the whistle blows it ends when you drive that sucker into the ground. Its intrinsically football.
Obviously no penalty was called. Not on Mouton. Not on Cissoko who shoved Floyd down right in front of the ref, and not on #74 who pushed a michigan player to the ground after the whistle. So obviously the refs know its a rivalry, shit gets heated and its gonna happen. Its all apart of football.
And that was my point in the previous thread. Those players abused their opponents within the context of the game, without using a closed fist to deliver a punch.
I am all for the style that Long and Woodley played. They were tough players who played through the whistle, money players.
I am very glad the ref missed it. I thought he could've thrown one on Cissoko, but he let it go... cool.
My point is a closed fist punch has no place on the football field... driving your opponent through the ground while finishing a block is within the context of the game and should be applauded.
Dude watch the tape again Mouton's hand was partially open. He slapped the guy. It was not a closed fisted punch. So no suspension, no nothing. Just two football players going at it giving it their all.
I did. Here is what I see:
Mouton on the ground getting up before the ND player which fell on him. While in the process, Mouton places his left hand on the ND players right shoulder pads and braces him, then connects with a punch, which wasn't overly powerful, but enough for the linemans head to bounce back.
You have no idea whether or not his fist is partially open or closed, but I can assume that it is closed based on the fact that when delivering a punch, you NEVER use a partially opened fist, good way to damage your hand/wrist.
At the end of the day, you think it is OK to jack another player, I don't.
I always find it quite funny when one contradicts oneself in consecutive sentences.
"You have absolutely no chance, not one, not even a little bit of an idea of whether or not his fist is open or closed for that hit. I, on the other hand, am different from you and I am going to say that it was closed because that suits my argument better. I base this on an opinion that I am going to pass off as fact, again, because Mouton using a closed fist goes along with my argument. I have NEVER used an open fist when smacking an offensive lineman while I play for the Michigan football team, therefore not a single other person can ever use an open fist. NEVER!"
He bitch-slapped that Buckeye on his way to the end zone! Sickening!
But honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Mouton sit for a quarter or two.
Really, we paid the refs?
Is my sarcasm detector broken?
Just as PSU fans feel there is a conspiracy against them, ND fans felt they were jobbed, so why fight it? It makes them even more irate.
Ah. I'd go ahead and take a rest from posting for the rest of the night as you'll only get negged from now on.
Then again, there doesn't really seem to be any confirmation that anything bad comes of it, as r_mahorn is currently at -Jay point levels.
Quick question... how does one get negged? Is it just from replying specifically to a post?
Anyhow, I will take your advice... thanks.
but if you get above 20 points, you gain the privilege of up/down-voting individual posts, as well as the privilege of starting new threads.
A "neg" is a downvote. This is also called a -1. In the case of a poster receiving a -1 for each post in a thread by nearly everybody that visits the thread, this is called a negbang.
A "+1" is an upvote. I don't believe other, widely-accepted terminology has arisen for it yet.
For most posters, the other forum-goers' votes are where the majority of a user's points come from.
ps: don't talk about points.
I nominate just calling it banging.
"Man, bouje never gets banged."
"It would seem like Brodie gets banged all the time, but the reality is, there is no one to actually confirm that fact."
"Jay has been banged more times than Brian at a Statistics convention"
Brian has already coined the phrase "posbang" in reference to going back and posbanging the guy that posted Roh would start the WMU game (remember he was negbanged before the game because a lot of folks thought he was making it all up).
IDIOT. That could be one of the stupidest things i have heard in awhile. Go back to your domer board.
Unless you are referring to someone else (the cascade gets confusing, so if it is someone else, then I apologize), I am no Domer. It is obvious that objective Michigan fans are not welcomed to voice their opinion.
I am amazed at how many actually condone punching a player. Notice how I don't call you, or anyone else an idiot for holding that stance... it is your opinion, and while I disagree with it, you are entitled to it, same goes for me.
the page. Me calling you an idiot was me thinking that you actually thought the refs were paid off. My bad. But ur 3 game/Thug U arguement is dumb.
Well without going too much into it since I have negative points, is where does the line get drawn? I like Mouton, but he stepped over the line. Is 3 games a bit much? Probably, but I believe in setting a precedent and making an example out of the first player who does something boneheaded. He will probably be suspended for at most 1 game, and if so, fine, I won't lose any sleep over it.
I personally liked the balls that Mouton had to do that. Where in your argument did you mention that the ND player shoved him to the ground from behind (illegal block in the back) and then went after him after the play? If anything, there could have been offsetting penalties. Why would Rodriguez put out his players' fire with a suspension for something that ONLY ND FANS NOTICED? Really, do you want the media to pick up on this so they can spin the story and say that RR recruits thugs again?
It would be fine if you were being objective but you're not.
Just because you're taking the, let's call it "not-michigan" side of this little debate we're having here doesn't make you objective.
Making statements such as "We are not Miami (FLA), Thug U, or whatever." or, "1. using a closed fist and uppercutting the ND player under the face mask 2. Doing it in clear daylight." and essentially calling a player bush league, is about as far from objective as you can get. You're rushing to judgment, equating Mouton with those "thugs" at Miami Fla, and saying he intended to uppercut a Notre Dame player in order to hit him in the face (as can be inferred by the statement "using a closed fist" and "under the facemask").
You watched the tape and formulated an opinion about what happened as did several other people. Its all subjective, as we all bring our biases, with regards to what it dirty and what isnt. What is a punch and what isnt.
IME you're overreacting to a play which A. Wasn't anything at all. B. Wasn't called a penalty on the field. C. Happened multiple times in this game and every rivalry game before this game.
He shouldn't be punching him...but its not worth a suspension. I got popped like that in high school ball, and I made sure I got back at him later, within the rules that is. I'm sure the ND player did the same.
In the words of Dan Hawkins: "ITS DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL!!!"
how dare cissoko violently shove the guy into that vicious haymaker?
I thought this thread was going to be about Rosenberg punching dolphins...my mistake lol.
Oh for fuck's sake- take off your skirt made of vagina. It's big boy football and this shit happens. We're not better than anyone else. Nor are our players.
Where do I get me one of those?
probably deserved as well, although i'm not condoning the act.
That looked more like the Marty McFly "your shoe is untied" bit than a punch. We don't want to condone cheapshots, but that looked more like a love-tap to get the guys attention than an attempt to hurt the guy. Mouton should get some serious Barwis time for risking drawing a stupid penalty, but not for giving a little chin-music to a player on one of the nation's dirtiest O-lines that had just taken a cheapshot at him.
I like how Boo Boo had Jonas' back...no doubt that ND Goon said some Shit and Michigan stood up for themselves and responded.
We play with an Edge now. Don't fuck with Michigan.
the words, but the ND guy blocked Mouton in the back and pushed him while down. Charlie is teaching his guys to be dirty and block in the back.
it's classless and something should be done. everyone that says "it's part of the game" should answer why it's met with a flag and consequences when seen. it has no place in Michigan football and gives Weis validation after his bullshit "punch" claims against MSU. he should sit and workout "voluntarily" twice as hard to be on the 1-2 against EMU while sitting and gaining clarity.
It's football, it happens every game. So does much worse than what this video showed. I played college football and believe me punches are the least of your worries next to biting, hair pulling, players grabbing body parts trying to inflict serious damage with MMA style holds. If the coach sees fit to discipline him he will. But in a very amped up rivalry game with that atmosphere I'd be highly surprised if they do anything.
Like the officials, I missed this during the game. I have read through most of the posts (all to this point) and still can't really figure out which side of the fence I am on.
I am an MD so I don't usually rush to judgements and normally analyse something thoroughly before making a decision. I also played sports all my life and was never one to back down from an opportunity to throw down with the other teams players. I think we all know that it happens in sports, that is a given. The question I keep coming back to is: Just because it happens, does that mean it's ok?
To try and be objective I look at real life situations and try to apply them to the context of the arguement in question. In this case I look at the law as we know it.
The argument seems to be Mouton didn't do anything that many others don't do as well. It is against the rules, but lots of people do it so it is alright (maybe I am wrong, but that is what I see as the main point for the "it was nothing" side).
To put this into a different context I would say that in "real life" many people murder other people (I won't go as far as Pryor and say everyone murders, but lots do). Does that fact that many people do something make it right? Should they not be punished even though it is against the law because many people do it and get away with it? These are the questions that come to mind when analysing this side of the arguement.
Do I think it happens in games, I know it does. As I said I played sports all my life and took part in this portion of the game far too often to be honest. But does the fact that it happens make it right, I don't believe it does.
I guess in writing this post I have decided which side of the fence I am on. If it is just "part of the game" than I don't think there would be rules against it. Just like if murder wasn't wrong their wouldn't be laws against it. Do I think he should sit for 3 games, hell no. I think the punishment should fit the crime and in this case I think the appropriate penalty would have simply been a 15 yard penalty.
As I said, I think what he did was wrong and falls outside the boundries of what is acceptable in a game, but if the refs missed it I am not sure anything should happen. I have faith RR will make the right decision.
much better if you used something a little less severe/dramatic....like driving over the speed limit.
Granted I used a severe analogy but I think the point remains the same. An arguement based on "it is alright because others do it" is not an arguement at all.
If someone wants to argue that the other player deserved what he got (and many make that point), that would hold water far better than it's ok because others do it. If what one player did was outside the boundries of what is acceptable in a game, he can hardly cry about a player reacting outside those same boundies.
After much thought on the issue, I think offsetting unsportsmanlike conduct penalties would have been the order of the day had ref's seen it. Only my opinion of course.
And I'm not arguing it. No need to attribute arguments to me that I'm not making.
My point was simple: there are a myriad of less heinous crimes you could have used to make your point. Things like speeding, illegal downloading of music, public intoxication, etc.
Otherwise, it makes it look like you are equating the jab that Mouton threw to murder. Which, like...really?
Let's not try to turn this into LeGarette Blount, or Conboy/Tropp here.
At least there is a shred of merit to one of Weis' excuses.
Weis is a man who boldly claims to not make any excuses and then writes an entire library full of excuses.
If he would spend less time making excuses and more time coaching they could have won that game.
A good coach would have told his players: "look there is 9 seconds left in the game, if we get a deep pass in the middle of the field just go down and we'll use our timeout...don't run horizontally across the field until time expires."
After seeing that video, I agree that he should be sat for a half or a game. There's no place for that out there.
Almost as disturbing are the attempts to explain away the intent by guessing at the impact. If an Irish player had committed the same act, we'd be giving him the Robert Reynolds treatment.
For what's being called a "weak punch," you can see the guy's head pop back right at impact. That's not that weak. That's not the passion of the game. That's not football. That's someone not controlling their anger and taking a cheap shot. That's either a ton of extra conditioning and a half game suspension, or a full game. I don't care if it happens all the time. It shouldn't. Take out your frustrations by winning football games.
And we lose our credibility (with whom, I have no idea) when we express outrage at opponents who twist our players legs/ankles after tackling them on punt returns, but dismiss punches to the face after whistles blow.
Nobody (well, not the sane among us) is saying Mouton is a thug or was completely unprovoked, or should lose his scholarship or be suspended for the season; but we recognize that acts such as this are wrong, not to be tolerated at Michigan, and, when observed, deserve punishment.
cheap shotted Claude Lemieux. I'm willing to bet everyone (including myself) on this board thought that was awesome.
Now, I'm not comparing the two situations here, but the fact is the ND guy got in a little extra shot himself, and Mouton responded. Was it the best way to respond? Probably not. If he needs to sit a quarter or whatnot, fine. But I don't get where all these moral police are coming from, talking about suspensions and shit. Its footbal for God's sake. Some of you are acting like he stomped the guy with his cleat, or hit him in the nuts. He gave him a little shot on the chin. I'm willing to bet this happens multiple times in every football game played, from high school to the NFL. If he is suspended, it will be because of outcries from people the likes of we are reading in this thread.
The preceding block was a low-level cheap shot, but something still within the confines of typical gameplay and something--let's be honest--we may have supported if it was Jake Long.
Mouton's punch was quick, it was reactionary, it was not thrown with all the strength he had...but it was more than a swipe. And it was 100% wrong. And stupid. RR should sit him for a half.
Mouton didn't actually mean to hit the guy in the face, but when Cissoko gently nudges the lineman, it places his face in harm's way.
This is all just a simple misunderstanding.
lineman should be suspended for hitting Mouton's fist with his chin.
Mounton deserves some from Rodriguez. At least some extra condition and some bench time in the next game.
there won't be any punishment. The refs can't see everything. We have to get that under control for the MSU game though, because their fans will be going crazy and drawing flags on us if this continues.
Are you kidding? I'm sure something like this happens in every football game, at any level around the country. A little love tap deserves no punishment..