wouldn't it be funny if they took JoePa's wins away, making Bobby Bowden the defacto leader in coaching wins?
PSU story in Wash Post-- JoPa should be arrested too
No. It would not be funny. Nothing "funny" is going to come from this.
How can you find any humor in this?
How can you find any humor in this?
I feel very sorry for the victims in this case, they were just children who were thrown under the bus of the PSU football team.
A little off topic, but how would this situation impact a new coach ( maybe urban meyer) if in fact psu cleaned house? There would be distractions, but I guess not as much if they were to get rid of everyone involved. Thoughts?
I can't even begin to think of what I'd do if I found out something like this happened to a family member of mine, or the child of a close friend. If I couldn't get my hands on the culprit because he was in jail, I'd start by burning his house down and go from there. The Bible talks of forgiveness, but some things go beyond forgiveness.
While money damages never come close to compensating, I hope someone sues PSU for every dime they can get in light of the cover-up going on here. After having read this story, I am saddened to think we need something on top of the obvious to remind administrators that the proper course of action should be anything other than immediate investigation prior to termination and criminal referral.
The bummer about that scenario is that it's PSU (and their insurance) writing the check. The men who sat on their hands and did the bare minimum, allowing more victims to be abused thanks to their silence? What's going to happen to them?
They'll leave with their healthy retirement packages earned for doing such an examplary job upholding the standards of the institution. Oh sure, maybe they'll be too embarrassed to show up at their country club for the next year. And I doubt they can attend bowl games with the Penn State crew anymore. OH SO TRAGIC.
Damages are something, but it's maddening not just because (as you note) they can't fully heal the person who was hurt. They also don't really punish the people at fault.
If my son was known as "Victim 1", Sandusky would be dead. D-E-D dead.
Read the grand jury report and you will want to kill everyone.
To be honest, I couldn't make it past victim 2. I don't see how anyone can send their kids to play football at Penn State until they clean house.
You and me both. I got through the first couple paragraphs and had to stop. It is so disturbing it is surreal.
That guy is one sick SOB. Disturbing situation: repeat offender, consistent pattern of behavior, superiors kept minimizing the allegations and distorting the stories to hide the truth. Anyone and everyone who knew about this guy (AD, President, JoePa, etc) needs to be fired with the serious consideration for jail time. They all had opportunities to stop this behaviour in 1996 and 2002 and did nothing appropriate enough to stop it. The sad thing is, these are the only 8 victims that we know of, or that would testify or that came forward for this report. There are probably even more out there.
I am the father of 4 young boys. I cringed multiply times reading the details of this report. Very, very disturbing. This is going to be a dark cloud of PSU for many, many years.
Assuming you're an adult, force yourself to read the Grand Jury's report. It holds a lot of important lessons for any of us with or around children. It is a very damning document for many involved, but it also offers invaluable insight as to how (A) pedophiles operate and (B) how interested institutions gradually whitewash the situation. I write that as someone who has been on both sides of the table (prosecution and defense), although that was a long while back.
I'm a firm believer in "innocent until proven guilty" and 6th amendment right to a solid defense. And he should get a good legal defense. But absent some bizarre twist in this story, Sandusky's going to spend the rest of his life in prison, with all of the abuse that goes with being an institutionalized serial pedophile.
Parents: If you see a child developing a relationship with an adult that feels like it might be too close, trust your instincts and look very closely at the situation. An overnight visit with a coach is a huge warning sign, along with the other age-inappropriate activity like dinners out, showering together, etc. This will seem obvious to most of the parents on the board, but read the report and learn from it.
Everyone: The report is also a fascinating study in how an institution takes repeated horrible events and sweeps them under the rug. PSU checks the necessary boxes (except for the major one of reporting abuse to the authorities rather than just the administration), but as the information filters upward, the graphic descriptions become described as "horseplay". It is almost like a game of "telephone" where the message gets distorted and minimized each step of the way. With a bit of plausible deniability built in as the message gets higher up the PSU chain.
Read the Grand Jury report: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/documents/sandusky-grand-jury-report11052011.html
It is sad that this very well may be, and frankly should be the end of Joe Pa's coaching career. At the same token, you don't have to get very far into the report to know for certain that he, and everyone else who had been reported to, or had seen something, should have reported it to the police.
This is definitely a black mark on Penn State, and they certainly could have handled it in a very different manner when they should have, in which case there would have been a momentary sensation, but on longer term appreciation for intergrity.
He is a piece of shit to allow this to continue!! Those poor children are the only thing sad about this sickening story..Im literally nauseated reading of these events. It should be a felony to have knoweledge of a felony being commited against a minor without reporting it to the police. Arrest Paterno and anyone else who helped keep this monster out of prison and allowed him to continue.
(I sat on a Jury for a case of this type, it is not easy.)
and yes, as early as 1998 his behavior (hugging a boy in a shower) was reported to the campus police, and nothing was done.
In 2000 a part time janitor witnessed Sandusky having oral sex with a middle school age boy in a shower. The janitorial staff on duty did not report (because they feared employment retribution).
For anyone in this thread thinking this is explainable, in 2002 a GA saw Sandusky having anal sex with a middle school age boy in the Penn State locker room. He reported it to Joe Pa, who reported it to the AD. Somewhere along the line the Vice President for Business and Finance (?!?!) also became involved (notably not campus police, or local police).
When Joe Pa reported, he reported it as "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy". (Obviously this would be very difficult for Joe Pa to do since he knew Sandusky from player to coach over 39+ years at that point, and must've been in denial.) The AD and the VP later (weeks later) interviewed the GA. The GA swears he told them "anal sex", they seem to recall a more benign description. Sandusky had retired as a DC in 1999, so there was no employer relationship. Their response was to take away Sandusky's keys to the facilities, and tell his charity that he was no longer welcome to bring young boys on campus.
We don't know whether Joe Pa followed up or not. Apparently the GA did not either. Suffice it to say both should feel guilt for not pressing the matter when they didn't see anything happen. Meanwhile, Sandusky has been able to continue for 9 years. Victim 1 and presumably others who have not come forward, would never have happened.
I almost hate to ask, but did either the janitor or the GA try to stop Sandusky while he was "in the act" . . . or did they just see it and leave?
said that both Sandusky and the child noticed him, but he left immediately and then contacted Paterno the next day.
The janitor went back to the rest of the janitorial staff with his story.
I don't think anyone did anything to try and stop either incident, which is also very strange.
Yeah, I can't get how you don't go all spider monkey on that guy and pull him off the kid who by your own admission looks to be about 10 years old.
We ought to be debating whether or not it was okay for him to gouge out only one of Sandusky's eyes instead of both, not how much follow up he should have done after he reported it the next day.
After reading this I had to wonder what that 1998 investigation and report revealed. What did JoPa know at that time? Did they let him serve one more year - taking his victory lap in 1999?
JoPa should be fired tomorrow.
That was a well thought out post. It is, of course, important to remember that these are allegations. However, they are very, versy consistent stories. Sandusky's legal team has one hell of a battle on its hands.
While I too recommend reading the document for the reasons you suggest, I could only make it through victim 5 before I thought I was actually going to throw up. Still, it was enough to see the (alleged) pattern.
Michigan has a law that would require a report to child protective services if even the sanitized version set forth by PSU administration was reported. Michigan law requires a report by all invovled. While one report could satisfy the reporting requiring for everyone - there has to a be report or everyone's obligation is still not fulfilled. I do wonder about PA law and Joe Pa's obligation to do more than just report it to administration.
Also, how does PSU explain taking the steps it did if they didn't know that something bad happened? I totally agree that PSU tried to go half way to make it look like they "did something." The organizational pressure to call that enough must have been huge. However, there are some issues where half meassures just wont do. Sexual abuse is clearly, and obviously, one of them.
The irony here is that what they morally should have done (call the cops) was also the best (and only) way to truly protect themselves and the institution. It also might have protected other childern from this guy.
This is just tragic on so many levels.
The employee is required to report the incident to the "person in charge" or his "designated agent", who then bears full responsibility for the report to law enforcement. There's no collective responsiblity for the report--once you've gotten the information into the hands of the appropriate person at your institution you've satisfied your legal duties, whatever he does with it in his turn.
It may satisfy your legal duties, but a moral person would go beoynd that.
I don't think there's a single person on the thread that thinks Paterno satisfied his ethical obligations here.
But there are some people who think he also violated Pennsylvania law and is facing possible arrest. That's probably not the case,
Thanks for the clarification. I was going to ask Carcajous about this in his/her post later down the thread. IMHO, that is a real weakness in the PA law.
I also agree with the legal/moral distinction in Carcajous's reply. I would also add a PR perspective as well. Beyond doing the morally right thing, all involved would have been better off calling the cops in the long term from a PR perspective as well. If they could say that they called the cops and they were the ones who stopped Sandusky (or the police investigated this and found the allegations to be mertiless), everyone's respect for PSU and Joe Pa would only be increased. Instead, the opposite is true. (This is not to discount the moral impertative of protecting kids. It just adds one other factor into the mix.)
If they could say that they called the cops and they were the ones who stopped Sandusky (or the police investigated this and found the allegations to be mertiless), everyone's respect for PSU and Joe Pa would only be increased.
I submit to you that if JoePa and PSU called the police, and these investigations happened and the truth were that the allegations were completely meritless, JoePa's and PSU's reputations would be absolutely trashed, and deservedly so. Look at the public reaction to a crime like this; it's disgusted and vitriolic. It's the worst crime you can commit, except for maybe being a white supremacist murderer. Other murderers get more public sympathy. Subject a respected old man who's done a metric ton of charity work to that kind of scrutiny and let it turn out to false and you've done him terribly, terribly wrong - nobody would just let that blow over, with a "haha, whoops, sorry about that." I mean, you're talking enormous, nasty slander lawsuits at a minimum. If you're going to bring an allegation like that to the police you'd better be 110%, concrete-sure. I am not convinced JoePa was.
Your first obligation is to ensure that a "respected old man" is not having sex with ten year old boys. The most at risk group here is the defenseless ten year old, not the old guy with the resources to defend himself.
You aren't committing slander by reporting something to the police. You are way, way off base about that and seem to have no understanding of the concept of slander.
And you are way off base claiming you need to be 110% sure before reporting anything. Good god. Fortunately most people don't take the same approach.
are generally provided full immunity under the law.
I agree that it is a horrible crime. That is why you go to the cops. Once the GA comes forward the allegation has been made. PSU and Joe Pa have a binary choice - either inform the authorities or don't. You no longer have the luxury of living in a world where your DC is spotlessly clean and you can't go back.
How would Joe Pa's reputation be trashed compared to now? Now he is part of the cover-up rather than part of the soluation. I still submit that he made the wrong choice.
Also, you do not commit slander when you call the police and say, "A GA has reported a possible crime. I would like you to look into it." You understand that slander has to be untrue, right? There is nothing untrue about calling the police and saying what I just said. Now, if the GA lied to the cops he would have his own problems. They would not be Joe Pa's or PSU's.
Just so I get you right - Are you really saying that Joe Pa and PSU should not have called the cops when a GA tells them he witnessed Sandusky having anal sex with a 10 year in the PSU shower? (If you haven't, take a look at grand jury report.) That's not enough for you to at least call the cops or CPS and see if they want to talk to the GA? I mean it's OK to just ignore that?
Perhaps "slander" is a careless word.
And no, you don't have me right - because what I'm saying is, you don't know what the GA said to JoePa. You know what JoePa says he was told and you know what the GA says he said. I didn't say, "JoePa was told that Sandusky was raping children and should not have told anyone," those are the words you put in my mouth.
I am saying that the consequence of being wrong with an accusation like that are severe. It's not just "a horrible crime," it's worse. It's the kind of crime where even having been accused of it - true or not - tarnishes your reputation. Permanently. You would be furious if someone, for whatever reason, told your boss you had done that, and because of that you were subjected to an extremely public investigation. Your reputation would be shot. And you'd be in a suing mood, whether for slander or whatever you want to make the official legal term out to be.
So if there's ambiguity in what you heard, you have to weigh the consequences of being wrong against the consequences of letting it slide. Both are terrible. That's why I'm saying I'm not ready to jump on JoePa. Sure, the GA is saying now that he told JoePa exactly everything - but I don't see why I should automatically take that at face value, given the trouble he'd find himself in if he didn't tell JoePa the whole story.
Yeah, because once you're in whatever the fuck a "suing mood" is you can just make up a legal claim and have a significant chance of succeeding-- and you do need there to be a significant chance of success because your argument requires that the risk of the lawsuit is sufficient to deter Joe Pa from reporting the charges if he is not certain.
So long as Joe Pa reports whatever it is that the GA told him, he is ok. He's not slandering, he's not doing anything for which there is special terminology. He is doing what those who are not sociopaths call "the right thing." Reporting is not the same thing as accusing. The GA is doing the accusing, but it's Joe Pa's duty both as his supervisor and as a human being to tell the police, "hey, one of my employee's claims he saw another employee rape a child. Can you look into this?" Joe Pa doesn't need fucking certainty to inform police that an employee has reported witnessing a rape.
If there is ambiguity in what you heard, ask the GA to clear up the ambiguity. It's not that hard.
Here is the problem with your point - there was no ambiguity in what the GA told Joe Pa. (At least according to the testimony that the Grand Jury found to be extremely credible.) The testimony was that he point blank told PSU and Paterno that he saw Sandusky screwing a little kid inthe ass. You're statement about "if there's ambiguity" ignores the fact that there was no ambiguity. You also ignore that fact that there were other compaints in 1998. Have you still not read the document that we are discussing?
Here is the problem I have after reading the grand jury report and everything else...
No one, not the AD, not JoePa, not the assistant who saw the rape, not the janitor... no one put the lives of the kids who were abused above their job. Everyone did just enough required by their job (and legally), but no more. To me, that is what is so disappointing about this whole story.
I would hope that I am moral enough of a person that if I ever faced a situation like this I would do everything in my power to make sure that a monster like this would never harm another child - my job be damned. There is no job important enough to sacrifice your morality or lives of innocent children to keep it.
I just find what JoePa did very very disappointing. No person of any moral value would just report the problem and look the other way. He had an obligation to make sure something like this would never happen again, anywhere. Not just make sure it won't happen again in the team showeroom.
Very very sad to find out that JoePa's morality was reserved for the football team only.
A couple of major difference between this sordid event and anything related to the NCAA and tsiO is that the State of PA has subpoena power and the ability to make arrests and impose perjury sanctions should someone lie.
After reading the Grand Jury's report, Paterno, by knowing and not doing anything other than passing the information down the chain, has a major problem.
It may be more complicated than that. I am guessing there is a reason they haven't arrested him yet.
A decently researched write-up here: http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/5/2540413/should-joe-paterno-have-done-more-to-protect-children
Conclusion is essentially that he acted within his legal obligations. Obviously you can make your own judgements about the moral side of it.
The key is that Joe Pa, like every other employee in education in PA is a mandated reporter. The law basically states that if you have ANY knowledge of physical or sexual abuse of a student, you must report or you can be fired.
Joe Pa may be covered because he felt by reporting it to his boss, the AD, he had fulfilled his legally required obligations. He probably should have followed up to insure the proper paperwork was filed with the state and the police, but I'm not sure how the PA law is written, so he may be OK. The AD on the other hand, by taking of over the 'investigation' from Joe Pa has no excuse for not reporting to the police and then he also lied about it under oath.
We have a similar law in IL and I had to make a report about something I heard from one of my students when I was teaching. But I didn't actually, officially report what I had heard to the police, either. I tried, but the school's on-site police officer just laughed, so I went to the school psychologist. She ended up filing the required paperwork after talking to the student and his mother. The reason the on-site cop laughed was that I had overheard that one of my students, who was 15, had gone to Las Vegas with his estranged father and his father had hired him a prostitute. The kid's mother did not laugh and I think moved away with her son to keep him away from the influence of his idiot father.
It seems to me that JoePa and the grad student are in exactly the same boat. They both reported to their superiors and not the police, which is apparently legally sufficient...and messed up. Maybe, the law can allow for people to report through their institutions, but that shouldn't be sufficient.
The issue here is protecting people against vendettas from their co-workers and making up fraudulent stories. So you report it to your superior, who makes a thorough investigation and calls in the necessary authorities. In this case, the GA reports to Paterno, who reports to the AD, who either goes to the President or himself has authority. Paterno had no personal knowledge of the incident besides what the GA told him. So he can't go to the police, because he only has hearsay. The GA could go directly to the police, but that's not the established procedure for these kinds of cases (in PA, obviously).
Paterno's major fault here seems to be in believing that the PSU AD that he had worked with for I think 7 years at that point and presumably considering what an institution he is at that school, had a hand in hiring, wouldn't cover up for a sexual predator targeting children. That's not a good thing to assume. What we don't know, and needs to be asked of Paterno when the press gets a chance to talk to him, is what he did to follow up with the AD after the meeting between the two officials charged with perjury, himself, and the GA. I think that's the moral question. If Paterno was also lied to by his AD, I'm not sure he has moral responsibility here either. From all accounts, he does plan on testifying for the prosecution in all three trials, if they make it that far.
admissibility of evidence at trial. It is not a requirement for reporting something to the police. The police can begin or be guided in an ongoing investigation by hearsay, so long as they think its credible.
That Penn State site reminds me of OSU sites after Tressell was found dirty. They are trying to rationalize JoePa's actions (or inaction) with a bunch of legal B.S. This will not not end well for him, and it will take some time for the PSU fans to come to grips with their "fallen hero."
The author is correct. If events as the Grand Jury report states are true, Paterno should also be arrested. Not telling law enforcement is a violation of the law in Pennsylvania.
Exactly. Some people seem to be confusing this with a NCAA violation. Telling your AD is not enough. In fact, it's a bunch of crap. JoePa should have called the police or at least made sure they were notified. Penn State and Paterno hid this crime. Banishing Sandusky from the athletic building, while knowing he runs a kids organization? JoePa needs to go down on this one. I've lost a ton of respect for him.
This is shocking stuff... and even more shocking is the small population claiming "innoncence before proven guilty." Regardless of whether Sandusky is a perv and a criminal, Joe Pa and admin had a CLEAR RESPONSIBILITY to report what happened to criminal law enforcement authorities.
Penn State is on its way out. Why would any kid want to go there right now? It is going to be in a flux. It has to be. No more sweeping this under the rug like they did 10 years ago.
Michigan and others can start dominating the mid-Atlantic again and Midwest again (for recruiting).
More importanly, I hope justice is served.
I'm not going to be dancing in the street over this.
Bro, you need to readjust your priorities.
At this moment I dont even care about college football.
Wow man. A bunch of kids got molested and you're talking about the recruiting implications? Shame on you.
Prison is waaay to lenient of a punishment for this guy.
he won't enjoy the coming ''soap battles" much.
hopefully PSU fans will not refer to Ann Arbor as a "whore". Now that this situation has been further detailed they don't even want to hear my response.
If I were a Penn State alumnus, I'd be starting a petition to boot the university president after a comment like this (from the story linked in the OP):
“I wish to say that Tim Curley and Gary Schultz have my unconditional support,” Penn State President Graham Spanier said in a statement, which an athletic department official said would be the school’s only comment on the matter. “I have known and worked daily with Tim and Gary for more than 16 years. I have complete confidence in how they have handled the allegations about a former University employee.”
That's insane circle-the-wagons shit. Somebody with power at PSU needs to stand up and be a man and at least pretend to show more concern for the (at this point) alleged victims than the university officials. If they were told about the allegations and didn't report, they are guilty. And that does go to JoePa, too. There's a reason the laws were written the way they were, to make it a crime to not report allegations of child abuse.
What on Earth compels university presidents to say things like this when their employees are facing a scandal? Does it give them some kind of a legal out when they do drop the hammer?
Steven Levy is probably one of the more prominent PSU alumni, and he seems to be the appropriate amount of righteously pissed: https://plus.google.com/109074857816744029470/posts/113gp4CQXXA
I would be cutting ties and condemning everyone involved.
Its a public university, someone should be starting up a campaign for trustee with the platform of sweeping out everyone who had contact with this disaster.
that Paterno reported this incident immediately and did everything correct within the compounds of compliance. If JoePa did everything right, he should not bear the responsibilities of the disgusting former DC or idiot AD.
PSU is a great college town, and I've never had a bad time going to a game there. I hope nothing further surfaces that could damage a great program.
That's an NCAA or University word... Unfortunately, if he didn't go to the police, he didn't follow through appropriately and is to be held accountable. The PA Police doesn't give a crap about compliance, nor should they.
But he did what he was trained to do and the athletic department tried to cover it up. This is not a failure on JoePa's part, but a failure on the athletic department and finance committee to report this guy.
At the end of the day, I do think this is JoePa's last year because it'll be too much for him to bear, but his record will go untarnished. Remember PSU is one of four BCS programs to have never gone in front of the NCAA for violations of rules.
Obviously this is something of a different breed, but in no way should JoePa or the university absorb the brunt of this. The best way to hurt these assholes is to prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.
I wasn't trained, but I know to call the police...no questions asked...you would think someone 'wiser' than me would know better
a correct assessment of this. If that's all he was trained to do, then shame on PSU administration for not properly educating their employees.
ANYONE (from the Grad Asst on) who deals with kids/schools/public/private as part of their regular job is required to both: 1) call the authorities (or PA's special child abuse hotline), and 2) follow up their initial contact with a written report (likely so that descriptions of events don't get watered down along the way and others can't say "that's not what i was told").
It's part of PA Code of Law. Neither was done here by anyone who touched this at PSU. There is no "I told someone more improtant" clause.
The only one who should escape this is the janitor who witnessed one incident, b/c it could be deemed dealing with kids is not part of his normal job/duties.
of the asshats who covered this up. Unless the president is fired within the week, the university absolutely should absorb the brunt of this.
They give these guys a 15 to life sentence is enough for me.
JoePa didn't lie in a grand jury report, he didn't commit any crimes. He reported it, while he could've done a better job obviously, he didn't violate any crimes.
He'll likely get off b/c he's a "coach", not an administartor; and he's old and deemed likely not cognizant enough to know the law. Probably best for him to just fade away, but still NOT an excuse.
Sometimes you don't have to "do" anything to commit a crime/violate a law, sometimes "not doing" anything violates it. He's as "guilty" as the rest, not just "did a bad job". I'm not sure what part of "it's a PA Code of Law you MUST report" you don't consider broken when you don't do it...
How in the world can you think, at a minimum, that the University shouldn't be held accountable? That's an incredible view to hold. I cannot imagine any argument that would support that view.
Let me ask you this hypothetical question. Imagine the allegations are correct. Also imagine that your son was a victim of this man. Also imagine that the victimization of your child began after Joe Pa learned of what Sandusky was doing, could have stopped it by calling the cops, but didn't.
After imagining that, please re-read your posts. (Also note - there may be one or more parents who do not have to imagine any of that.)
Here is the question - do you honestly still feel that Joe Paterno's actions are above reproach even if they fulfilled his legal duties (which seems to be an open question.)
I am not trying to be a internet jerk here. I am interested in your reply.
1) Paterno didn't just hear about the incident. The GA who witnessed an attack chose to report it to directly to Paterno. He did so by coming to Paterno's house and was reportably and understandably quite upset. I would think that would make a greater impression than to just follow procedure and report (a watered down version) to the AD. Under those circumstances not following through further seems unforgiveable. Remember too that he almost certainly had some knowledge of earlier accusations.
2) PSU should indeed bear the brunt of this case. This didn't just involve a former assistant coach allegedly committing crimes against children multiple times at PSU facilities. Multiple attacks were witnessed by PSU employees. Absolutely no one at PSU showed any serious interest in stopping this alleged pedophile. At best they told him to do it somewhere else. After doing nothing to stop him, what is PSU's response when the state attorney is investigating the case? It's been to lie and cover up. The head of the athletic department and the overseer of the campus police have been charged with felonies in relation to the case and have the outspoken and unqualified support of the president. While the criminal cases have yet to be proven it certainly looks like high officials at PSU preferred to enable a pedophile and hinder an investigation over subjecting the school to some bad press.
Joe Pa did the absolute minimum.
He didn't call the police.
He didn't follow up when nothing happened to Sandusky.
He still let Sandusky hang around the program for years.
He let Sandusky bring other kids to PSU football events.
He's already wasting people's time and money by pretending to be a coach. He should step down immediately.
I also loved my visits to PSU. Great fans and great school with a rich football tradition.
None of that matters. The fact that they basically covered this up and didn't make sure this was reported to police is horrible. This is similar to the Catholic Church cover ups.
This monster was destrying young troubled childrens lives, what part of that dont you understand? The university did not report this to the police and you think thats sufficient!? How about trying to stop this evil predator from continuing his actions and protecting these innocent boys?
You either dont understand what was happening or you are a pathetic human being.
I usually try to maintain an "innocent until proven guilty" attitude, but this looks really bad. I am guessing Joe Pa "retires" after this season. I would also imagine that, even though Sandusky is long gone from the program and there will be no NCAA probation, he will become PSU football's Ed Martin.
Any opposing recruiter who wants to elimiate PSU from a prospect's list will simply say to the prospect's parents, "It sure is a shame what happened with that assistant coach at Penn State," and it will probably work for a few years.
My hope in cases like this, innocent or guilty, is that the system gets the verdict right, and that justice is done. If the charges are correct, Sandusky could do a lot of people a favor by taking the old-school Japanese way out and letting his last "deviant act" be seppuku.
I am pretty much in the same boat as you. Trying to wait til the justice system gives this its due diligence, but right now, it looks really really bad.
PSU fans/alums should boycott the games. Stay home and see how the message of an almost empty stadium plays. Seriously Joe Pa should be gone now - this week.
In everything I read, people seem to be conflating two issues:
1) Did JoePa do the minimum of what he needed to do legally? The answer is likely yes. I work at a PA college and JoePa is likely a "mandatory reporter" of sexual miscondict and he did report it to his boss. That is the minimum of what he needs to do.
2) Did JoePa do what he SHOULD have done? Not likely. After reporting it up he should have followed up aggressively after it took time for his boss to "look into" the matter. If no report was made to the poilice, he should have made one himself. He might not be required to do that legally, but it would have been the right thing to do. If JoePa is sleeping well given what he did(n't) do, then the reputation he has cultivated as a "good/moral guy" is phony.
Great distinction between his statutory obligations and his implied responsibilities as the de facto moral leader of the PSU athletic dept. (As we know from 3 and out, the moral center of an athletic dept is not always its AD!)
Yet another example of a person being touted as a moral leader who is not. I know for a fact that no matter how busy I am I would not just simply report something like this and then let it go. Not the first time and certainly not the second time.
For someone who is supposed to be all about the kids and shaping young men, this is a total disgrace. How can anyone argue that shaping young men includes not following through on an alleged sexual crime against a child. What a joke! Way to be a role model.
This is the most level-headed post here as far as I can tell. People saying that he plainly broke the law, plainly haven't read any of the articles that explain the PA law here.
However, I will add that the facts regarding #2 haven't come out yet. We don't know if he followed up, or how hard he followed up. He could have been given the run around, or been lied to. I wouldn't put any amount of deceit past the PSU administration at this point. We do know that Sandusky was barred from using the PSU facilities after those allegations, and Paterno would have been involved in that.
I hope Paterno is innocent in all of this, but needless to say the 8 victims deserve justice more than Paterno deserves his reputation.
He was banned from bringing his prey, he was not banned from the buildings. Joe PA knew something happened in 1998 and then in 2002 he hears about anal sex with a 10 year old IN HIS FOOTBALL building and he does nothing except tell his boss. Espn has an article up now, Sandusky was banned from psi facilities today. Yes today. Spin that.
Carcajous has it exactly right -- Paterno did what he had to do, but did he do what he should have done? Can we expect that Paterno had never encountered this before?
Here's a bitterly unknowing article from SI in 1999: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017979/index.htm
last line from this article...
"Here's the best thing you can say about Jerry Sandusky. He's the main reason that Penn State is Linebacker U.....and linebackers aren't even his enduring legacy."
Yes, that will be that his is a sexual deviant.... Reading this article and know what is going on now, makes this fluff piece, just a disgrace....
Wow reading that knowing the allegations, sure puts some depth and motivation to things. "Saint Sandusky."
Figures that the clueless Matt Millen would once again appear shoveling undeserved praise on someone.
The university president needs to go, along with the AD. To staunchly defend anyone complicit in a situation like this shows that you're only trying to protect the brand. Child abuse of this magnitude - of any magnitude - is not trading tattoos for memorabilia. You never defend this, or any part of this. You say something like, "We will look closely look at the situation, and let law enforcement do its job. We take this seriously, and will not comment until the facts come to light." Come on, PSU president guy.
I personally feel bad for JoePa.... Should have retired years ago. There is no way that he ends his career on a high note after this, regardless of whether or not he "did the right thing" or not.
Secondly- Penn State Football has some serious image problems right now. Their athletic department makes Bill Martin's tenure look like a well oiled machine. I cannot see how any recruit would want to go okay for a coach who is 2 feet from an old folks home. Yeah, seeing him wave his cane at the pep rallies is cute and heartwarming, but it is so ridiculous..... The fact that the AD doesnt have a coach in waiting or succession plan is absurd to me.
Add in a sexual misconduct scandal, with young boys no less..... It looks like its gonna be a rough road for Penn State football.
Makes the days of RichRod and stretch gate look like paradise.
Why does being old give someone a free pass? If this is true, JoePa looked the other way while one of his employees sexually harassed children. Why should I feel sorry for him about this?
Why would anyone feel bad for JoePa? He presided over the program while some of this was going on? He got off without any charges. He and his family forever is taken care of.
Feel bad for the kids involved in this no JoePa. Those kids already came from a very difficult family situation and now they have to live with this abuse forever. Makes me sick. I do not feel bad for Joe Pa.
Joe Paterno should be out immediately. If the powers-that-be at Penn State have any stones, they'll fire anyone and everyone who knew something about this situation and did nothing.
Read the article - it's decent. But you really should not comment with your opinion unless you read the grad jury report (found also through the OP link). It is so damning. Far beyond what I expected after reading the article.
Many people knew that Sandusky showered with pre-teen boys, alone at the PSU football facilities, and at least on two occassions complaints were made that inappropirate things happened. One janitor saw Sandusky giving oral sex (again, alone, shower, PSU facilities). Graduate Assistant saw Sandusky having anal sex (again, alone, shower, PSU facilities).
On top of these, of course, we have leadership on various levels who knew of these reports.
And it's worse than even this. All of this victims were introduced to him in their 2nd year in Sandusky's charity. Sadusky took these kids (AND HOW MANY MORE????) to sleep in hotels with him for PSU and PSU-related events. Red flags anyone?
I've been a teacher, managed a home for abused children, and worked as a family counselor for children who have been abused. I realized that I see red flags and trust those instincts probably more more quickly and confidently than most. I also realize how difficult it is to have someone so respected and powerful cast in this type of absolute-worst-possible-image. The result is too often what we see happened here: people turned a blind eye and assumed it wasn't really that bad.
Fuck that. It was worse.
I'm also the father of two boys, but I'm not sure that matters here. I hope this guys rots in his own guilt along those that let this happen. I hope that Joe Pa - whose own Graduate Assistant came to his house on a Saturday morning and told him that the previous night he had seen Sadusky alone in the showers fucking who he thought was a 10 year old boy - leaves the university with none of the glory all assumed he would have. I hope he also goes to jail. I hope PSU donations dry up and recruits chose elsewhere.
I do agree with Sandusky 100% on one thing. When confronted by one of the victims mom's about a decade ago, he said, "I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead."
Die already, then.
I do hope that this story leads to people contacting police directly when they see something like this. When they hav doubt and their instincts are telling them somethign is wrong, I hope people ACT and REPORT. Even without a lot - or any - proof, reports can be useful. When police see a pattern, they will respond differently. You don't need to know for certain, just report your experience, nothing more or less.
This story will beocme even bigger news than now as this grand jury report becomes more known. This story will save some kids from getting abused, I'm sure.
I made my previous comment prior to actually reading the Grand Jury report - truthfully I was too scared to actually read it.
After reading it, it hurts me to say JoePa is should be held partly responsible.
Why is that just coming out now and not years ago? Why did she not report that to not just the police, but the media?
Just because a grand jury report seems damning that does not mean it actually is. Let's see what happens once a defense team gets a hold of it.
One would have thought that people would have learned not to assume guilt before being actually proven so.
He said that in response to admitting he showered with one of the boys.
The grad assitant and janitor also need to bear more responsibility. I guess I can't for sure say what I'd do if I walked in on the shocking scenario of an old man raping a 10 year old, but I'd like to think I wouldn't walk away, that I'd do everything in my power to get the boy away and alert authorities. The fucking janitor decides his shitty job is more important than reporting the inicident to anyone. Lots of scumbags in this story. And yeah, after reading that report in my mind JoePa has gone from one of the most respected college football coaches in history to an absolute dirtbag. After knowing this former assitant THAT YOU HIRED raped a kid in your lockerroom showers, how do you continue to allow the guy access to your program? How do you not make certain that this guy is being investigated by the police? Sick shit.
PSU boards think that the GA is McQueary...the WR coach. He should have stopped this when he could. He was a man...and you stop this! If he is the GA, I hope he is gone too, as he also toed the company line
Let's add a little perspective. Say you're the grad assistant or the janitor - you didn't just walk into any old gas station bathroom or Y locker room and see a random old geezer you don't even know, caught in the act. It's easy to say you'd run straight to the police if that happened. No, the guy you're seeing is basically one of your top five most respected people that you know. Imagine it's your dad that you caught. Or, I dunno, Bo Schembechler. A friggin' absolute pillar of the community and a guy who's completely untouchable, not to make a pun out of it. It's not so easy. Anyone who says they'd run right out and tell the story is probably lying. It's just not so easy.
JoePa, well, that's another thing. He probably figured he was off the hook by telling the AD, but again, this is a guy you've known to be unimpeachable for like 40 years, and we don't really know what he was told to begin with. You can't tell me that 40 years of knowing anyone will automatically outweigh a story you heard secondhand, regardless of the content of the story. Everyone wants to sound unequivocally OUTRAGED but in real life there's no such thing as black and white. Well, there is, but it's much easier to see it that way from a distance.
You're never in a position of power when a situation like this arises.
And btw, there had been a university investigation of the guy in 98, which almost certainly was in part behind sandusky's retirement in 99, so when Joe PA hears a "2nd hand story" in 2002 about a guy he's known 40 years, it's not completely out of the blue.
I hope you can say that when faced with a situation that requires a moral judgment of any kind, you've never wavered, not even once, and always, always done the right thing without hesitating.
This one isn't very ambiguous, sorry. He was told (if the GJ report is accurate) that his former assitant was having anal sex with a 10 year old boy in the lockerroom shower. He needed to follow up to make sure something was being done about it, and needed to make sure that the police were informed and were investigating. This isn't a morally ambiguous situation.
I am refering to JoePa, not the GA, not the janitor. Those two had other issues to contend with. JoePa was the most powerful person in the AD, and likely at the University. He had no reasonable fear of retribution from anyone and was in a position to make sure the right things were done. He didn't do it.
While he likely met his legal obligations, he failed to do what was right and, as a result, little boys continued to be raped.
Nice strawman. We aren't talking about reporting your buddy for stealing a pack of gum in the fifth grade. It a guy raping a 10 year old! Have you read the grand jury report?
Nothing is black and white? How about this: you're an adult. You witness another adult raping a child.
Uh, I'd call that pretty effing black and white.
And guess what? Yeah, I'd call the police. I hope I'd have the goddam courage to beat the living shit out of the mother f*cking rapist and save the child, even before I called the police.
From what I read after the GA incident JS got his keys to the facilities taken away by Curley or something like that. However, he didn't go far enough and pretty much ended it there.
I don't think that's accurate. I think they told him he couldn't bring kids to the PSU faciliities and contacted his children's charity. After an earlier report in which campus police investigated, I belive they told him he couldn't shower with kids or something. Deplorable.
I read the story and only got through victim #1, it's deplorable.
This is the actual title - not an Onion story - of Jerry Sandusky's autobiography:
before someone is actually found guilty. Unfortunately, in the past kids have been coached to lie in circumstances like this. I am not saying that is what is going on here, but it has happened.
But if true, shame on everyone involved. Sandusky deserves a special place in Hell for his alleged deeds. Paterno, WTF where you thinking?
There are eight victims, all of whom tell very similar stories.
Who "coached" the former GA (now believed to be Mike McQueary!!) who reported seeing Sandusky having anal sex with a ten year old boy in the shower?
and the GA told his father that very night and met wtih JoePa the next day. These actions carry a ton of weight when determining credibility years later.
Oh, and who told the Vietnam vet janitor who witnessed oral sex in the PSU showers? Again, the janitor told his boss and co-workers that night and they feared he would have a heart attack b/c he was that upset. Credible.
This is sick. This is more than sick. This is WAY worse than any pay for play scandal. We're talking about young boys. Pre-teen boys. I may be in college, but my brother is still 11. The thought of some man taking advantage of someone my brother's age sickens me to no end. And then to know people knew, and the cops weren't told?! What is wrong with them?
Penn State has to clean house. Anyone that knew has to go. That includes Joe Pa. Yes, he may have told the AD as he was supposed to, but how could he not call the cops? How could he be a man of such "honor" or "integrity" and not bring Sandusky to justice? It's hard to believe that the Joe Pa era could end like this, but it has to. Joe Pa must lose his job.
What is this, Stalin's Russia? Why don't you permit the system to work before rendering judgments?
Our nation's legal history is filled with people falsely accused. Knowing this I think it wise we wait until Sandusky has been given his day in court before damning this man and the rest of PSU to hell.
innocent before being proved guilty only works within the court of law...not the court of public opinion...and the recounts of what happen is not going to help anything. Should he be drawn and quartered before his trial...no, but in reality, he is already guilty
Which is precisely why I've been saying that those "in a position to know" shouldn't be condemned without at least putting a little thought into it or knowing what they knew. The consequences of reporting, and being wrong, are severe, as they should be.
your point is valid, I really do get it, but if the grand jury report is true, then they should all go to jail.
Most importantly, I believe it should be made clear that you DO report, almost without any reservation, when you have any reason to believe something improper has happened. You don't need proof. You just report your experience / what your heard / the red flags that you've felt. Report no more, but no less. Let the police do their job. When police get multiple reports without evidence, they will start handling these reports with much greater focus and action.
I have worked with abused kids and their families for many years. The failure to report, mostly b/c of the reasons you stated above in combination with the fact that the accused is almost always a trusted/respected individual (priest, coach, family memeber, etc), causes so many more chidlren to become victims b/c these devils are still free to prey.
If someone saw Bo or Hoke or ??? having sex with your 10 year old son, and nothing happened, would it be OK? Or if someone saw one of their assistants and told Bo or Hoke, but nothing happened, it would be OK? No way in hell is it acceptible.
After any of these people knew what happened, and they still saw Sandusky walking around a free man and involved with his children's charity, they had every moral obligation to follow through to see what the hell was happening. They might have followed through with their legal obligations by telling someone (I assume the trial will tell us this) - but morally, you hear this dude had sex with a ten year old or you actually SAW this, you don't just ignore it for years.
GA (word is that it is WR coast McGreary) did the right thing by immediately contacting someone (his father) and thus is very credible. He then met with JoePa. That must have been incredibly f'n hard to do. The report stats that he was completely traumatized by this. But I blame him as well. You're telling me that if you see this and tell your superiors about it, but nothing is done, that you'd be OK with it? No. You have an obligation. I'd beat the shit out of him if that were my son. Of course we don't know whose son that was - they never even attempted to follow up on that poor child. Per the grand jury report, it is assumed that he is not one of the listed victims.
He was just another faceless victim, a 10 year old, left abused by those in society who were most powerful and most respected. Powerful and respected no more.
If these were just some half-cocked allegations with a ton of holes in the story, I'd be with you.
This seems rather clear-cut.
Don't try to be different just to be different, it makes you seem sympathetic to a pedophile.
he's not guilty yet, but I believe he is and will discuss it from that viewpoint.
Oh, and read the grand jury report and then get back to us. Too many credible witnesses.
Joe Pa gets the all time wins record and this story now blows up. There's a lot more to this story. Just say'in.
I actually have no idea what your point is. Please explain.
The author is right, this is way way way more disgusting and warped than anything oSU or any other program has done w it's football program.
If this is true, PSU should honestly get the death penalty. If there was ever a proper circumstance to use it, this is it.
This will tarnish their program and Joe Pa's legacy forever...you just can't come back from something like this. Wow.
(b) Staff members of public or private agencies, institutions and facilities. Licensees who are staff members of a medical or other public or private institution, school, facility or agency, and who, in the course of their employment, occupation or practice of their profession, come into contact with children shall immediately notify the person in charge of the institution, school facility or agency or the designated agent of the person in charge when they have reasonable cause to suspect on the basis of their professional or other training or experience, that a child coming before them in their professional or official capacity is a victim of child abuse. Upon notification by the licensee, the person in charge or the designated agent shall assume the responsibility and have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made in accordance with subsections (a), (c) and (d).
Legally, Paterno's responsibility was to notify the "person in charge of the institution" or a designated agent. I don't think outsiders have enough access to Penn State's HR site to know what the procedure is here or who the designated agent might have been.
Despite what's been written in the thread above, he didn't have a legal responsibility to directly notify the police. His ethical responsibilities are another matter.
Thanks for the research. I was one of those who raised the issue legal based on (as I noted) Michigan law. PA law is different and, based on that, Paterno seems to be legally in the clear for the failure to report. Ethically - its, as you point out, a different matter.
...is that its clear from the law that the situation they're trying to address is one in which someone working with kids begins to suspect, from physical or behavioral clues, that a child might be a victim of abuse. While it may be the applicable law, it was never intended--nor were institutional procedures modeled on the law intended--for a situation where the abuse was going on right there in front of you.
Sorry for shouting. But that's why the legal obligations here are so distant from what seems ethically appropriate.
is absolutely disgusting and makes me violently ill. May all those involved get what's coming to them.
Ped State University (TM). "They licked us" JoePa would say after losing games.... Queue the youtubes.
Dude! Waaaaaay too soon.
WTF is wrong with you?
The GA reported it to his boss (Paterno) and Paterno in turn reported it to his boss (Curley). Curley said he would take care of it asap and would do an in depth investigation.
This only goes to further my belief that everyone is dirty but us.
You're/we're probably dirty as well, if not worse. That's just reality.
I was discussing these episodes of Breaking Bad with my brother the other day. This clip captures the main point.
“I chose a half measure when I should have gone all the way”
This is where Paterno and his superiors failed. They tried to approach this situation with half measures. Paterno did so by just following procedure and reporting it without apparent follow-up. The AD was worse; all he did was look into it and ban Sandusky from bringing kids on campus. Regardless of legal requirements and administrative rules this situation required full measures.
There was a credible report that a highly respected member of the Penn State community, and an individual who was running a charity for at risk kids, was sexually abusing those kids. Full measures were needed. They should have reported this to highest law enforcement official possible, the attorney general of PA in my opinion; they were themselves powerful people, he would have taken their call.
Paterno, the AD and anyone else who knew, failed to take the full measures necessary to protect those who needed the most help in this situation, the kids. The failed to do what was right and should step up and admit as much. They cannot change what happened but they can stand up and admit the mistakes they made.
Penn State failed to protect the young boys Sandusky was abusing. The athletic department was minimally compliant at best, actively covering up the problem at worst. Clearly the repeated pattern didn't register with anyone in a position of authority.
I can't imagine how the players must feel, knowing that these crimes went on in their very facilities.
I'm hard-pressed to think of an uglier college sports story than this one. How could anyone with even a shred of a conscience look the other way on something like this? Unforgivable.
I delivered mail and had interactions with many of the staff at the time. It freaks me out that this was going on one floor above where I worked. Initially, I thought it was one person trying to shakedown Sandusky for $$ because he did a lot of charity work in the area at the time.
Now I know that the charity work was a predator stalking his prey. Bringing these kids to the complex was a perfect place since access was strictly controlled. It makes me very upset that I undoubtedly had interactions with the janitors and GA's who are mentioned in the GJ testimony.
As far a JP, at the least he should be done coaching...right now, not at the end of the season, or even the end of the week. But that's not how it's gonna work. Seriously, telling him not to bring boys around the complex anymore!?!
"Whatever you have done to little children you have done to me"
This makes St Tressel's actions look very innocent in comparison. Heck, there isn't an NCAA violation that can compare. I also am 100% certain this was held until the bye week @ PSU.
It more shows that JoePa doesn't do or know anything that is going on around him. He is a senile old man, that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too respected in my opinion. Of course he has that many wins, he's been there forever! Penn State needs to move on, every season they put off Paterno retiring, they set themselves back another year in the future.
This is unbearably painful for me to hear. These are kids and the story was ignored for football, or friendship or whatever the reasons. There is no reason for any of this. These were children. These people can rot in hell.
Penn State should of moved on from JoePa along time ago, but now the post JoePa era is going to make our RichRod Era look like a walk in the park. reading this this is the nuclear bomb for that program
There is nothing about this that doesn't have a tragic angle. I've hated Penn State for years but I always respected and liked JoePa, even if he didn't appear to be with it the past few seasons. This whole mess from a moral angle, really tarnishes what I thought of him.
I feel horrible for the victims. And I imagine this has got to feel horrible for the PSU family who loved and admired this man for so many years, even after he retired. One of my favorite all time victories was the Tom Brady 4th quarter comeback over PSU in 1999, which happened to be Jerry Sandusky's final game at Beaver Stadium. I saw the endless shots of fans holding up banners saying how much they were going to miss this man and Musberger feeling bad that he had to lose his last home game. I thought he seemed like a nice guy. It's weird to combine that image with these accusations.
I just finished reading the grand jury report and I'm absolutely sick to my stomach - BUT NOT AT JOE PATERNO. I realize that most people are bitter and angry at the sick and pathetic state of their lives, and they like to tear down those who've accomplished much in their lives and done so without being ridiculous prima donas who are glory hounds and constantly need adulation, bigger houses, bigger cars, numerous mistresses, etc.
Let's remember a few things - a grand jury is convenied to see if the evidence warrents criminal charges being filed. from what I read, it's clear there was sufficient evidence that prompted filing charges and bringing this case to trial against Sandusky. Through the course of the grand jury hearing, they also felt that certain Penn State officials were cupable in a potential cover-up of the situation. AT NO POINT DOES THE GRAND JURY REPORT INDICATE EVEN A SLIGHT AMOUNT OF CONSIDERING BRINGING CHARGES AGAINST JOE PATERNO. Therefore, we can assume, according to investigations conducted, information collected, testimony heard, and decisions rendered, the LEGAL SYSTEM IN PLACE FELT THAT JOE PATERNO did nothing illegal. I don't even read in the report where they felt that he might have been part of a cover-up, but they didn't have enough evidence to bring formal charges and take the case to court. It seems as if they are content with Paterno's testimony, it's validity and consistency with the law.
What happened is horrible, disgusting, and unacceptable. Perhaps PA laws do require reporting to a special agency. And how many of you know who and where to report it to. Again, what I read is that Paterno received an account from a graduate assistant and forwarded it along. Now, in the report, we don't even know if the GA gave a word for word account, a summary or what. It's quite possible that Paterno simply forwarded on to the AD what he thought he was told. The telephone game is in play here. Once something is second hand, it's gets distorted unintentionally. Simple reality. Paterno mentioned fondling and something of a sexual nature. That's bad enough and enough to communicate the severity of the situation.
I'm not sure why Paterno didn't follow up, or if it would have made any different. ITS CLEAR THE AD COVERED UP THE ALLEGATIONS WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE. HOW CAN YOU EXPECT THAT EVEN IF PATERNO INQUIRED FURTHER, THAT THE AD WOULDN'T HAVE LIED TO PATERNO?
If you are objective, you realize that Paterno did what he thought he was supposed to do, much like the situation was an athletic violation. Should he have done more is another question, but I think the reality is, he wasn't involved in a cover up, or trying to protect a friend. If that was the case, he'd have told the GA to forget about it and never went to his boss.
If you are unable to be objective and want to tear down Joe Paterno, you're a pathetic disgrace of a human being and you'll read whatever you want to read into the report. You'd be absolutely wrong, and a moron like most people employed at the Washington Post, but that's your life you have to deal with.
Don't tell me I'm not objective.
I have always had the greatest respect for Penn State and Paterno. I now am beyond disgusted by both. Paterno has utterly failed at leadership by not making sure, whatever the hell it took, that no further boys were abused.
Whether or not he fulfilled his legal obligation is beside the point in my view. He allowed more young boys to be brutalized.
The reality is he did his job and reported what he received from a graduate assistant coach to his bosses and let them do the investigation. What would you have liked him to do? Besides reporting it to the police ... which he probably assumed would have happened once reported to the AD, there was little he could do.
He received second hand information that Sandusky had raped a boy. Did he see the action? No. So lets assume he inquires of the situation again - to the AD? And the AD tells him what? We investigated it and found the claims were wrong? Okay, paterno pushes the issue. The AD tells him to shut up and go back to coaching football games or as many on these blogs like to assume, go take a nap while your staff prepares the team. Either way, he doesn't get very far.
Perhaps Joe is from a different era when he assumes that when someone says they'll investigate it, they do. Perhaps it was the seriousness of the issue that led him to believe it would be thoroughly investigated. I simply don't know.
But you are looking at the situation from hindsight. My suspicisions if you had been in Joe's shoes at the time, you'd have done the same. You can say you wouldn't have, but history is a strong reminder of our tendency to have whiggish attitudes about those who came before us. I'd have never done that. No, you'd have done worse, and so would I.
Now, if you'd like to say Joe made an error in judgement, that's perfectly fine. But when you say he allowed them to be brutalized (notice the word you used), you clearly indicate you're not objective.
Or, we can simply look at the facts as reported by a grand jury, their non-consideration of bringing charges on Paterno and take away the simple fact that your completely wrong, and those involved in the case and investigation know more than you do. It is possible that you're not all knowing.
Do you still think you're objective?
I would say there was nothing LESS that he could have done that what he did. Given what we know so far, Paterno did the absolute minimal thing that he had to do without actually committing a crime himself.
If you're OK with that, well, I can't help you.
But I was taught that doing the minimal thing isn't good enough.
dude, you are what's wrong with so much in this world. I hope you are never in a position of power where you have to chose between doing what's right and doing the minimal that you are legally obliged to do.
I have a feeling that if it were your 10 year old in that shower, you'd have a very different opinion on JoePa doing "his job."
You may be right - he may have committed no crime.
But you will still be so very, very wrong.
Your post is so over the top and rife with hypocrasy that it lacks any shred of reason. You call people who jump to comclusions some pretty inflamatory things, yet you declare with absolute certainty thing you can not possibly know.
"If you are objective, you realize that Paterno did what he thought he was supposed to do"
"I think the reality is, he wasn't involved in a cover up, or trying to protect a friend"
You can't know these things, or many of the other things you assert.
You say, "I realize that most people are bitter and angry at the sick and pathetic state of their lives..."
I guess someone with that worldview would post something like this...
First, spell check - it's a great thing to use. Hypocrisy ....
If you don't like me criticizing your spelling, I guess I have a right to consider you a jerk for questioning my line of thought.
You are correct, I cannot know why you and other bloggers here want to crucify Joe Paterno. However, after years on blogs and seeing these comments, it's hard not to realize that people are envious of others and love nothing more than to see them torn down. If you doubt that, look at the joy people get when the political, celebrity, sports hero of the day makes a mistake.
I'll agree, my categorization of most of you on this blog was unfair. However, I stand by my claims that the only way to vilify Joe Paterno in this and read into him be derelict of his duties is by having a bias going into the situation.
I can know he wasn't involved in a cover up. He reported it to his superiors. A cover up by Paterno would have involved any of the following requirements:
1) Not reporting what the GA coach told him.
2) Following up with the AD to change his story
3) Changing his story if called in by the AD
4) Evidence of previous events occurring that Paterno was clearly notified about and in which the claims were substantiated
5) A GRAND JURY INDICTMENT.
The facts support my conclusion very clearly.
Poor judgment on Joe's part. Possibly. Not what you would have done - apparently. Worth firing a legend, probably not. Education and putting in place a procedure on all campuses to make sure all employees are clear what to do in the event of an allegation - definitely. Slandering a football coach who a court of law never considered pursuing legal action against - idiotic.
I almost stopped reading after you equated mispelling and the "logic" in your post, but finally made it to and stopped at you admitting "You are correct..."
Thanks for the admission.
best case yet for the return of the NegBang
You, my friend, leap to the very conclusions you rant against.
I have no prior ill towards PSU or JoePa. I have inlaws who went there, I visit the area regularly, I always had a positive image of JoePa. But now I see him as a powerless, stuck-in-his-world old man. He couldnt fathom how to deal with this.
He is like a lot of Catholic heirarchy facing the same problems in their organization -- and ironically JoePa is a model Catholic to many Pa residents. The evil is so unfathomable to them, they couldnt comprehend how to respond but instead defaulted to doing nothing. And no I dont harbor hatred for Catholics, I am one and my kids go to Catholic grade school.
JoePa should be suspended. But no one will do that -- his boss and his boss's boss have their career on the line here too. If not their lives.
Just curious. I won't read that report, as I am not sure I could stomach it. But I just saw a tweet that apparently these kids were staying with Sandusky in hotel rooms for away games on PSU's dime. How does a 12 year old kid stay in a hotel with a grown man and the parents don't know? How did this dude orchestrate it so that these kids were allowed alone with him? I don't get it and I really don't want to have to dig through that report trying to find answers.
It wasn't just for away games. These boys also stayed in Sandusky's hotel room for bowl games as well. And there many, many times where they slept over at Sandusy's house in his basement.
From what I could finish of that report, the boys who were part of "the Second Mile," came from absent or dysfunctional families. So, I'm guessing the victims parents had their own issues in regards to noticing anything suspicious with these constant sleepovers. Again, just a guess. I could be wrong.
A random and bizarre mention in that report? A feature on Sandusky was written in Sports Illustrated about his retirement in 1999, and one of the pictures in the article shows him posing with one of his victims.
I think you are exactly right. The fact that some of these kids came from home situations where they may not have had an adult to turn to for help says he knew how to pick his targets. His vile, disgusting behavior was as planned and premeditated as could be
correct. and some of these events happened after the eariler reports in 1998, right? There were some people in power who had heard allegations, and yet this still continued. Sandusky had pre-teens alone in his hotel room on many occassions while representing PSU. This was one of the things I found fost unbelievable. What the hell? Anyone who works with kids knows that this could *never* happen. 13 years ago was a little less strict, but still...
As for the parents, well, they trusted the guy and he provided an opportunity fo that child that was once in a lifetime - a real chance to lead to a better life. Or so they thought.
I hope all the former players remember all the young boys he brought along and are disgusted when they realize now what was going on. This is such a sickening story and I hope that Curry and schultz are put on trial for perjury (it sure sounds like the Grand Jury doubted their version of events). Disgusting.
So I guess it's official. Mike McQueary was the grad assistant who saw the sex act in the shower.
The ages match up too. McQueary was 28 years old in 2002.
from a number of standpoints. But, it speaks very poorly of the length some people or organizations will go to preserve their reputation and/or revenue stream. When money becomes more important than the welfare of our children, then our society has regressed rather than progressed. And as a father of two girls, this makes me sad.
Wetzel hits this pretty hard.
I want to try looking at this from JoePa's perspective. Sandusky was no longer his employee when the GA came to him. He had a 39 year working relationship and friendship with the man and some noob came to tell him that his friend anally raped a 10 year old. JoePa not only heard the kid out, but told the AD about it. I think a lot of people in that situation who tell the GA off and defend their friend. JoePa turned it over to a more objective person, his superior, to pursue. It sounds like JoePa was supportive of the GA. He would have been involved in getting the GA in to see the AD.
Sandusky is a sick man. The AD and Veep are dead wrong for doing too little. I know I am in the minority, but think that JoePa behaved appropriately.
I'll paraphrase Wetzel. Paterno wasn't some middle manager, he was Joe Paterno, and to think that he actually had a reporting relationship to Curley is naivety. Curley worked for Paterno, not the other way around, even though the org chart may have "officially" been otherwise.
was in charge. At the point that GA came forward, Sandusky was not officially involved with the football program. He was a former coach who was allowed by Curley to keep his keys. This is exactly the type of thing where Curley should take over.
If a GA came to Hoke and said that Mattison was sexually abusing kids, I would expect Hoke to suspend Mattison and tell DB. DB has a staff that can investigate the allegations and make a determination. He can then inform the authorities. Hoke would not be expected to use people associated with football to check on allegations.
JoePa did not have the Grand Jury's report. He took action based on the statement of the GA. It was a handoff to someone who had the time and resources to look into the matter and take appropriate action.
I am the director of an addiction treatment center. When one of my employees comes to me with a report, I go over it with them and meet directly with the source. Once the employee has turned it over to me, I am responsible. The vast majority of reports are credible and acted upon. A few attempts to harm someone's reputation, usually during a divorce.
Prudence is called for when deciding how to proceed. If JoePa reported this to the police and it was false, it could have led to Sandusky's wife leaving him and Sandusky being barred from contact with his grandchildren. He turned it over to someone who could check the facts and act. It is Curley's failure by minimizing the allegations and not taking proper action.
What Sandusky did was pure evil. What Curley did was self-serving, short-sighted, and wrong. I don't have a problem with JoePa's actions. We can't paint all people associated with PSU with the same brush because of the sick actions of one man.
that is one viewpoint, and unless any of us are in this situation, it might be hard to say with certainty how we would react.
However, by all accounts the GA was traumatized. I have a very hard time believing he wasn't credible to JoePa. A low-level GA doesnt' just suddenly show up at your door on a Saturday morning at say this about the 2nd most powerful person in the program's history unless it is true.... or he's completely lying.
EITHER case morally demands a followup. Either Sadusky gets murdered, or this get gets fired or worse.
If someone tells you that he saw your closest coworker, or paster, or uncle, or god forbid famliy member having sex with a 10 year old - what you suggest is not how you should respond. In fact, I chose to believe that is not how most people would respond. I'm certain that it is not the response of anyone who would retain even the slightest amount of my respect.
It appears football wins and the culture of the PSU program was placed above the law. I find it facinating that this long standing abuse becomes national news just after a time where one of the most significant milestone in college football coaching is achieved. It's too coincidental. Did it really have to take this long to come out...I don't think so.