I like providing financial support to our fine University, so I am ok with the PSD. Plus you get a tax deduction.
to play football, not to play trumpet
I like providing financial support to our fine University, so I am ok with the PSD. Plus you get a tax deduction.
You must sit in the endzone.
Times two thousand five hundred.
What is the difference for you folks from Canada? No tax deduction, eh?
Ohhh yeah. All my donations, totaling $1200 last year, and now my PSDs would be nice to claim.
It was the first year I could. If I'm wrong I'll just blame TurboTax.
Which, as of this season also requires a PSD
Not in the endzone, but pretty close.
You get a BIGGER tax deduction (25% larger) if you just give the school money unrelated to a seat license.
I do that too, but to the Cancer Center, not the Athletic Dept. The PSD is my athletic dept donation.
That's not how "begging the question" works.
But yeah, buying season tickets right now seems suboptimal.
Taking a Latin phrase and incorrectly translating it into English while keeping the meaning from Latin is just nonsensical. Next to no one uses this phrase correctly because it doesn't make any sense in English.
is a very useful concept. People really do beg the question all the time, and it's nice to have a pithy phrase to describe the fallacy. If people would just start saying "raises the question" when they mean "raises the question," everyone's life would be better.
Agreed. It's a nice device to have but people are too lazy to worry about such things so instead ignore what it actually means rather than using an equally as easy phrase ("raise").
I agree! Every time I have an argument with my wife all she does is the beg the question! I tell her that and she just begs the question even more. Weird how that works.
Ironically, the OP does actually provide an example of begging the question by making points 5 and 6 by assuming points 3 and 4 to be true.
And I'm pretty sure that this is an example of irony.
Yes, thank you. I was a philosophy major but I'm also aware of the fact that "begging the question" is a terrible phrase for what it's supposed to mean. Criticizing someone for saying it in the sense of raising a question is like criticizing people for calling people from the nation of India "Indians", correcting them that it should refer to native populations of the Americas.
Agreed. Those sort of things make me stop paying attention to the post and start thinking about all the things people say incorrectly.
In response to the post - it's a gamble. There are literally thousands of people who will pay for their tickets regardless of W/L record. It's an event they do with their family or friends, it's a reason to go back to campus, etc.
I also think the argument that it's cheaper to buy tickets each week on the secondary market is a bad one. Most people, particularly older people or anyone who sits in a group of more than 2, don't want to deal with that even if it saves them 20 bucks a game (which is still debatable).
So keep in mind that although you are frustrated with the team, we weathered the RR storm and that was during a worse financial time for the state. You very well might lose your tickets.
Too many freaking lawyers on this board.
(My apologies if I used "freaking" incorrectly.)
I think fricking is preferable.
comment. I LOLd.
We can be friends. even if you aren't really a "fan"
I'm just in a really extra social raunchy mood. And the topics of late bug me even when I'm not crabby.
You could even say subprime
If you think that there is an endless supply of people waiting in the wings for Michigan tickets, I would suggest you start looking at schools like Tennessee and Florida where attendance has dropped significantly except for big games. NCAA attendance at games is NOT going up.
In the last few years, large HD TV's have become inexpensive and all major games have live TV coverage.
Look at what is going on in our student section.
Michigan has been very lucky to date, but I'd bet that won't continue without a good product on the field. DB has to be worried.
Always amazes me there are those who INSIST someone else will buy tickets if I forego the opp. Stunningly, on the dynamic mgoblue.com link, I could have bought 6 tickets to the Nebraska game if I wanted to. And I can buy up to 4 tickets for the OSU game.
Akron was a different story altogether...and 2014 is filled with Akrons, not ND's and OSU's.
Buy tickets at Yost instead.
OSU tickets are still going for $145 per.
Who is buying these tickets? Ohio State fans.
If you don't buy them you can be damn sure someone else will. Except when we play the cupcakes.
I think somebody just won the Inter-net.
The people I've met in my section and become friends with over years are the primary reason it's more than just an economic argument for me. They're not bad business contacts either.
If you just enjoy going to the game, it financially makes more sense to not buy season tickets and then select (via StubHub, friends, etc) the 4-7 games you want to go that season. You will virtually always come out ahead (e.g., you won't waste $150 on that Akron game you really didn't want to go to, assuming you are buying two tickets).
However, there are many people who really enjoy their seat "mates" and that keeps them invested (as it were). Same if you are currently in a suite (which again, is big for kibitzing/deal-making).
But if that's not you, get rid of those tickets. Trust me, for the last few years and for the forseeable future, you'll be able to go to all the games you want for less money if you don't pay the PSD and ticket price.
But it's not just about seat mates either. It's about seat location and not having to worry about dealing with stubhub on a weekly basis to get those seats. And what about the years where there are big games? If you wanted to go to all home games this year I doubt you'd come out ahead, and we aren't that good.
It might have been close before the recent collapse, but as noted by Brian: you could get good tix for $50 the day before the game (and Nebraska was supposedly one of our "big" games), which is half off (if not more) if you count the amortized PSD price.
Personally, I would have been easily able to go--even in Sept/Oct--to all the games this year for less than it would cost me for a PSD and buying all the tix. I have a number of friends who have tix, so that helps, but I don't think that makes me unusual.
Perhaps if you are out of state, it would be hard, but for someone who lives in SE Mich, tix are always floating around.
Based on the comments in this thread it may be a boycott of just me but I have already decided to not renew my four tickets next year. I will take my chances with Stubhub if (when?) there's a game I want to see in-person again.
I will watch on TV and root from my couch starting next year. Hoke-Borges have managed to crush my interest in something I've loved since I was about 10 years old ( i still remember watching the 69 OSU game with my dad). At least under RR I had hope things were getting better but now it's exactly the opposite. Things are getting worse and I have no idea where the bottom is yet but I dont think we've seen it and I'm damned sure I don't want to spend $3,000 for the priviledge of seeing us hit it in person.
This is the first year since freshman year of college I won't attend a home game. I tried to go in September, but it didn't work out. Only other option is for the Ohio game, and I've seen that game before in person, multiple times (Michigan receiving a beat down that is).
I hope Jabrill Peppers wins the Heisman in 2016, then poops on your lawn.
MGrowOld is experiencing a tough rut in his fandom of late so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm giving Hoke Borges the same benefit until the end of year four so I don't become what I most despise: ND fan.
Thanks Clarkie - and I'm not alone.
Between the increases in PSD and game tickets, the horrific 3:30 start times, the lousy non-conference schedule, and bad coaching I',m inclined to stay away. God I hate 3:30 games with a passion. One or two early in the season okay but that's it.
What do you hate so much about 3:30 start times? I love them as a student and now as an alum.
Gave mine up after last season when they jacked up the donation. Not regreting it one bit. Didn't even regret it after the ND game. Trust me, you want to go to a game, there are almost always tickets available.
My audiologist has three kids in college and hopes I renew my season tickets.
Don't call yourself a fan.
Are you a fan, or a sheep?
I agree with Brew mom, like usual. I'm not going to question someone's financial decisions, because that's different for everyone. So if you simply said, "these tickets are no too expensive me for, so I won't be renewing them" that would be one thing. But anyone who doesn't renew their tickets because the team isn't as good as you want right now, that's lame in my opinion.
Basically you're saying, "I'm a huge Michigan fan (season ticket holder), but only so long as they're winning."
So, what you're saying, is the more money I throw at the athletic department, the bigger fan I am?
Makes total sense.
That's pretty insulting to a lot of fans out there. Sure, if I was a millionaire, I wouldn't care how bad the team was, and I would continue to pay whatever asked for tickets, but I'm not. Just a guy with a wife, 2 kids, and an ailing mother who has priorities that may be different than yours.
I said nothing like that. But you are canceling your seats (or considering doing so) because the team is t good enough. I would like to know what you definition of fair weather fan is, and how it's different from this.
concise and less emotional than me.
I think you should read my post again, or stop twisting to your benefit. I never said I was going to cancel my seats. Considering it? Yes, but so that I can take advantage of what I suspect will be the more affordable option of buying tickets on the secondary market.
So if you think I'm less of a fan because I still plan on going to all of the home games, just not buying the tickets through the athletic department, then so be it.
And no, not because the team is bad... that's merely a factor. Maybe you shouldn't have stopped reading after I begged the question.
If you're honestly just looking for a more cost effective way to attend every single game, then I'll take back what I said because that's not what I inferred. Maybe it's because other posters who have made similar posts (like Mgrowold has about a dozen times) have said they won't be going at all, or only to a few games.
I also don't see this being much of a cost savings for you. Maybe short term, but still only maybe. As soon as we hit a year with MSU and OSU at home and we're good - you might be in big trouble.
You're one of those "have to have the last word" guys, aren't you?
And if I'm not mistaken you have let me know after each of my 12 posts on the topic how I must not be a "real fan" or words to that effect if am giving up my seats out of disgust at the product being put on the field.
From the warm of Southern California.
Well the good news is somebody is going to get four wonderful seats in Section 3 - Row 27 starting next year. The view is fantastic and other than the stupid 12 year old behind us who comments on every play our seat mates are great too. The guy to my immediate right played on the 65 Rose Bowl team and he is pretty upset too FWIW.
So if you and Brew Mom are on the waiting list you've just moved up four spots!
seats 17 and 18 in row A, Section 20. I like my location but could use 2 more.
at least he has passion for the game and he'll probably never give up his seat.
Definitely financial decisions excluded from my comments. I've considered letting mine go, because I actually go to So few games anymore. But my family in Michigan enjoys them and when I do go, I enjoy the people (same ones for 20+ years) around me.
I am just so cranky with these threads.
I will remove myself for a while again... This is too much.
So you're bitching about other fans givng up their tickets but then admt that you no longer go to many games? Ok.
follow the vocal minority out of the stadium...
buh bye. I need two more next year anyhow. never have one problem selling them for the past 25 years. Through the RR years. .never. one. problem.
You predicting a "collapse" is assinine.
I hate how this team is preforming. I'm pissed too.. but jesus, strong people and organizations go through adversity. This shit is ridiculous.
Nice. I was merely pointing out a possible scenario, hoping to generate a thoughtful discussion and hear what other fans think.
But, hey, I can trade personal insults and profanity with the best of them.
discussions are so profound and thought provoking. .. And unusual.
Bitching about bitching.
So instead of ignoring the thread since you have made it clear you're sick of the topic, you ... commented on it, and in a snide fashion. OK.
This just actually made me laugh out loud.
How do you not have a problem selling? I have 4, but can usually only use 2 at most due to kid's sports but I'm lucky to get $20 for the akrons, CMUs, Minnesota, etc.
That's just a simpleminded throwback at fans who want to or will give up their tickets. There are so many more things at play in 2014 than there were in 1975 or 1985. Ticket prices, the price for the right to buy the ticket, ridiculous start times every week, the marketing of the brand that now is commonplace in Ann Arbor, the wow factor, HDTV's, the product on the field isn't the same, the overall gameday experience isn't the same. Don't make it as simple that someone that gives up their season tickets isn't a fan, that's just garbage.
The continuing rise in prices can price people out of the ability to maintain their season tickets. It's already expensive as it is, especially if you have a block of four seats. My family had to give up our season tickets for the Blackhawks a few years back because we got priced out of it when seats went from $35 a game to $90 a game in less than 7 years. Now we go to 4 or 5 games a year as that's all we can afford to pay. As I'm in Chicago and not Michigan, it was never practical for me to get UM season tickets in the first place, but now that they keep raising the prices there's less motivation for me to ever get them for more than 1-2 games a year from Stubhub. So when some people cancel their season tickets, don't call them fair weather fans. They may just be broke instead.
I don't think "Mom" was talking about that situation. There is a big difference between getting pissed off about the coaching staff not living up to your expectations and simply not having the money. I think she was going after the boycotters, not those who are being price out.
Based on your comment and her comments further down on the thread I realize now that I had misunderstood her words and she was not calling out people priced out of the market.
I just wonder if DB will realize before it's too late that he's pricing longtime fans out of the market for season tickets, and stifling futher growth of the fanbase. I'm a 2nd gen alum and have every intent of my son being 3rd gen alum of our great university. But if the prices keep skyrocketing for tickets it'll be a long time before I can get him up to Ann Arbor to go to a game. When I make trips back to AA I don't typically go to the cupcakes, I like to see an actual game. Plus, with NW now in the other division for the Big Ten, it'll be a long time before he's able to see Michigan easily on the road. I'm already looking forward to the 2019 game @ UW, as he'll be almost 8 then.
I kinda touched on this above, but there's a difference between canceling them for financial reasons and for performance reasons. Based on the original post, it seems like that poster wouldn't be considering canceling his tickets if we were 8-1 right now. That's why the fair weather fan stuff comes in.
Not renewing and/or buying tickets from the athletic department is really the only way for fans to have their opinion voice heard from those that matter. I would argue those that are giving up their season tickets are a bigger fan than those who are afraid to (because they may not get them back).
I applaud the fans who are giving up their seats because they are unhappy with the direction of the program. If the Big House is full and DB is getting his attendance and advertising money why is there a reason to make a change?
DB is a businessman, and I believe the almighty dollar is the number one factor behind his decisions.
You can see this happening in other sports. Your point here
If the Big House is full and DB is getting his attendance and advertising money why is there a reason to make a change?
is spot on. You can see that happening with the Cubs for example. For decades under the ownership of the Chicago Tribune, there was zero incentive to field a winning team as the Trib viewed the team as a programming and advertising revenue generator for its TV affiliations with WGN and CLTV, because they filled 3 hours a day on the network 162 days a year. After the Trib sold the team to the Ricketts family, we finally got owners that realize you need to field a winning product, and finally the fans have realized it too as the attendance has finally started to drop as the team rebuilds and sucks worse than normal.
the PSD is tolerable - for now. Plus, we like the people who sit around us (no dicks), and it's a short walk from the gate where we enter the stadium. As bad as things seem now, the RR years were worse and we want to support the team. Obviously, things could change, but for now we'll continue to plunk down the money.
I got my permanent season tickets in 1996. I had just graduated law school and didn't have to wait on any list. You see, people didn't renew their tickes after the 1995 season that had a 9-4 record and features losses ot MSU and PSU. We got new people in the section after that season as folks found the 8-4 record of 1996 to be unacceptable. People thought that the new coach should be fired and didn't want to support what they felt was an unacceptable football team. A few months later, you couldn't get anything for a reasonable price and the waitlist was a mile long.
I would encourage you to think longterm. If you don't want to go, you can generally find someone to take the tickets off your hands. However, you keep them as your tickets.
If you are selling OSU tickets, please do the rest of us a favor and avoid stub hub. Sell (or give) them to Michigan fans so that we don't have 2009 all over again.
moving around an bargining every year, more power to you, go for it. But if you think you're going to want to be back when the team is really good (under this coach or the next) you might want to think about it. Now the whole attending events live thing is a decreasing problem across the board of all sports and events, so it may never really be a big problem again. But you should definitely be thinking about what you want to do not just next year, but years to come.
Me, them painting the seat numbers has made the two seats on my side to the end of the row one, and I don't think it's been sold half the time and is not a season ticket now. So I'll probably see if I can pick it up. Never had enough people regularly going that if I wanted a spare I couldn't find seats elsewhere, but starting a family I might like to take them down the line. And not wanting to leave the people I'm around in the Stadium, or pay the really big donation prices, I'm happy where I am. So this might be a one time opportunity to increase my allotment in my spot. So I'll use it for now to invite people I could never invite before till my kid gets older. Heck, even if it's empty and creates ass spaced that's better than the law firm that would give them away to opposing teams clients and make me sit next to them the whole game. Besides, if it's open that much, I can always do the MGoBlog "spend a game with M-Wolverine" giveaway.
For what it is worth, there is an FAQ for Preferred Seating Donations (HERE).
The final question is in regards to what will occur if you do not want to pay the PSD. The very carefully phrased answer is:
"As a donor and season ticket holder, you have the first right of refusal on your seats. We will work to accommodate any move into a lower PSD level or adjustment of seats on a case-by-case basis. We cannot guarantee that all requests will be granted. Please contact the Athletic Development department at 734.764.7131 for more information."
Please reach out here on mgoblog.
I paid $2650+ for 4 seats in Section 20 (around the goal line, ~40 rows up). Except for ND, this year, I couldn't sell an extra or a pair for anywhere close to face/paid/greater than $40 each. The dynamic model is selling tickets for less than I paid (Akron) including the PSD, and there were still thousands left prior to that game.
Anyone who thinks there's a waiting list, or hundreds/thousands of people/families interested in obtaining season tickets (replete with PSD payment), please, continue to keep that public face, insistent that my fandom is in question.
I have earned Fandom Endurance Merit badges over the years, paid PSD's, been a season ticket holder over 20 years. I have some number of Victors Club points that put me in the upper quartile/quintile of all Victors Club donors.
And yet...I'm being charged a premium price for an inferior product. I get the following:
HD screens with Dave Brandon, stupid costumed students and a few young kids, few actual replays (let alone game stats that are current to the action on the field)
Play calling that is average at best
Rawk music from dog groomers
Splashy videos telling me how my donations make life great for the rowing team, or womens field hockey
"New traditions" that don't take hold, in a sleazy, marketing-driven attempt to replace ACTUAL traditions.
How does all that make my Saturday great?
At the end of the day, I'll buy tickets on the spot market, either StubHub or some other avenue (mgoblog ticket spreadsheet), and spend the $2000 I save on Wings tickets or some other more satisfying endeavor.
See what I did there...still a fan, still supporting the team, my team. Just not getting fleeced by Dave Brandon and his band of henchmen. Thank you, no, I'll be happy to keep my money in my wallet for the next couple years until ticket prices normalize, and become more reasonable to the games actually being played on the field.
Amen. And thank you.
Seconded (or thirded). That post should get sent to Dave Brandon's office in a frame.
I've been reading of your increasing dismay in full agreement.
Gamedays aren't the same, and my patience/willingness to put up with the lameness is hitting my breaking point.
I'll continue to attend games, but not for $95+/seat fir each and every game.
You sound like a guy that is convinced that there is no way Michigan will ever miss a bowl game.
You left out the infantile sky writing messages over opponents stadia.
I am also going to suggest that real Michigan fans don't judge the voracity of other Michigan fans. WTF?
(see what I did there?)
Sorry to be grouchy, but as a third generation legacy, double-degreed alumnus, 42 year season ticket holder (football plus hockey), and current faculty, having my my fan-ness questioned makes me want to fucking smack someone. Aren't we all on the same side here?
You are. Some jerk (ahem) making a crack won't change it.
I do agree w the articulation of wolvinLA tho.
Things are gonna be better, even if they won't this year. They will.
hmmm let me guess: Ross?
If/when you give up your season tickets don't do so just by failing to turn in the form. Call development/victors club and tell them exactly what your grievances are and why you're giving up your tickets. The bottom line is clearly what matters to the ad, and when they see people are giving up their season tickets, the reason why will hopefully spur positive change.
3:30 games destroy the whole day unless one lives and dies for football. I'd like to get home before 9 or 10.
Seemed like in '11 we had almost all noon games, and the past couple years have been almost all 3:30 games. Is this a TV thing?
Yes, it's almost entirely a TV thing. By contract between ABC and the Big Ten, Michigan controls the game time of the homecoming game, but the rest of the schedule is essentially determined by ABC/ESPN with some input from the AD for night games. Brandon has essentially zero control whether a game (other than homecoming) is at noon or 3:30.
in the sense that it's the fans only real source of power in displaying their disapproval of unchecked ticket price increases.
i don't necessarily agree with any notion that boycotting season tickets shows a demonstration that you are not satisfied with the AD's performance in hiring coaches or the coaches' performance, or etc.
i do support the notion that this team is boring to watch, and has a high likelihood of being boring to watch next year, and paying ridiculous prices to watch a boring team play makes as much sense as running power into 8 defenders in the box.
i don't think that is being a fair weather fan, either. i went to every game while in college, and my freshman year coincided with RR's first year. the team sucked, and it sucked kinda, but we weren't boring to watch. denard made every game tolerable--there was something worth watching. this team is literally the most boring team i've ever watched. i still watch them and get depressed and etc. but i don't think you're a fair weather fan if you don't want to spend the money--even if it's not an issue of being outpriced by rising costs--to watch this team next year.
Whether individuals want to bail or not, I think that the sentiment is widespread.
Dave Brandon can, if he wants to, quietly sit back and say, "I'll sell the place out; uhappy season ticket holders can do what they want to..."
But he has to know that his patrons are not fools, and even if he has a big pool of people who want to see games, the numbers tell a bleak story; season tickets (which used to be the best bargain for spectator sports in the entire state of Michigan) are now a losing proposition.
You can clearly, easily, get tickets for any game that you desire, for less money, by not getting involved in season tickets with a PSD. The season ticket holders are getting a very bad deal compared to the market, and are subsidizing the athletic department in a very, very big way.
I don't know about the rest of you taxpayers, but my State of Michigan tax break for my PSD has gone to zero.
Next season will be the first one in several lifetimes when we have neither Michigan State nor Ohio State on the home slate of games. No Notre Dame.
This is a massive fail on the part of the Athletic Department. I haven't decided yet whether I will now give up on Michigan football. But I like the idea that those who are making that decision (a reasonable one, I think) are speaking out about it. If I could take a year off entirely, and get my current seats back in 2015, I'd do it.
I'd like to figure out what my tickets cost, and were worth, this year.
My PSD was $2400. My ticket subscription was something like $1875 (I don't have the renewal form handy; I'll correct it later if I can). Total = $4275.
I sold my Notre Dame tickets for $2000. I think I was very lucky to get that much for them. $4275 - $2000 = $2275.
My own rough estimate for market pricing for the rest of them are as follows. (Amounts are for four tickets, net; estimated net ticket prices in parentheses.) I haven't gone back to Stubhub to check on historical recores for actual sales for four seats together in an attractive row in Section One. These would be "quick sale" prices.
That works out to about $1600, recouped in sales, if I had blown off the entire season and sold all of my tickets. Which means I am losing money, just trying to resell all of them, even with the spectacular sale of the Notre Dame game for $2k.
It is a bad deal you are offering, Mr. Brandon. I am glad that you are advertising "Dynamic pricing," because it calls to attention what a Big House of cards you are building. It is not reflective of the marketplace. Your football season ticket holders -- your bread and butter -- are getting a rotten deal.
sell the ones I don't want to friends or people I know. You'll never recover the PSD cost. This isn't Bama or OSU. My family has had tickets in the stadium for 57 years. My brother gave his up three years ago and I am giving mine up after this season. Between the PSD, parking and the high cost of simply going and enjoying the day, it's not worth it.
I don't have to fight to keep my space everytime I sit down, I can go to the fridge during a timeout and not miss a thing, never wait in line for food, drink or the bathroom and I will save over $2,000. Can't beat it with a stick.
I'll go back when there is a game worth going to. The OSU game will be a beatdown and I won't put them on StubHub.
I have purchased six season tickets in the end zone for several years. I go to a couple of the bigger games and sell the rest. Usually I have been able to break about even. But now that is no longer the case. The donation and ticket costs have outstripped the value. This is probably for many reasons. I think younger people do not want to be anywhere their phones don't work. The stadium is a very uncomfortable place to sit for four hours especially as americans have gotten bigger, much bigger. The on field product is weak compared to 1969-2007. I wish the team well, and even Dave Brandon well as he competes in the big business world of college football. But I will contribute to the University in other ways than as a season ticket holder beginning in 2014. The stadium has become a playground for the well off. I'm not sure with the way the US economy is going that there will be 114,000 people well off enough and willing to fill the Big House going forward.
I'm in still. I save up during the year. I don't know why, I just am. Buying tickets is my one splurge.
I have to imagine there will be ample promotions to sell season ticket packages between now and next season. A crappy end to this year + a terrible home slate next year = lower demand. I would hold off and wait for a better deal. I think it's inevitable that the University caves a bit
Same thing happened in 2009 coming off of the 3-9 year. We bought tickets to the PSU game that year direct from the athletic department, they were in row 30 and right on the 25 yard line, so clearly they were someone's former season tickets. I'm sure the AD will be running a lot of promotions for tickets to next year's awful slate of games, but the only one I plan on getting tickets to is @ ND as long as I can find them for <$300 a seat.
driving home Sunday: what game is worth coming up for next year? Penn State?
To OP, and others who I've been a jerk to today?
I'm not starting a thread on this...but I am just flat out crabby as shit.
I'm sorry for being a butthead.
Sincerely. I need a kitten.
No worries. But I can't help with the kitten.
Until they pry the tickets out of my cold dead hands. I've sat in section 2 and I didn't enjoy it. The game view is nice but the rawk is a lot louder and the wind blows colder too!
Brandon's economic machine can be checked. I don't think it can be broken though. He might actually have to think about reining in expenses on all of these gold plated facilities. The vision for south campus that plays at every game is the one that makes me the sickest, I will admit. Those who stay...will die penniless and starving....
I'll go with the cheap seats until I can't afford them or I move away. I maintained my season tix thru 15 years of living down south, but I think I would abandon them only if I leave and just buy the game I would likely attend for a given season. I've mentioned the RR years were the only ones I lost money on, (my modus operandi was just to try to break even) seems like that would be the norm now.
I am one of those special combat vets. I saw service on three continents (Horn of Africa in the early 90's, Former Yugoslavia in the mid 90's, Afghanistan after 2001). I raise it coincidently this Veterans Day to point out that in my opinion a patriot is not someone that just supports the country but also is willing to take steps to challenge when things are going the wrong way. (I really hope that is not considered political but this is why I really appreciated protesters even when I was flying back from combat.)
A true fan also in my opinion is also one willing to take the steps to help the team. Sending money is not all it takes to be a fan. Letting the management (AD for instance) know that things are wrong and that they need to make adjustments are also a big piece of being a fan. It is insulting to say that someone choosing the most vocal manner possible to express displeasure makes one not a true fan. They are the ones that are truly trying to make things better.
I appreciate your post. Having never owned season tickets to anything, I consequently have no leverage with any athletic department. While the average season ticketholder has very little leverage, the actions of many of them will speak loudly.
Thanks for your service! This has been the most disappointing year (M-football) I have experienced in 40 years. Starting to bring back memories of the Millen years.
TaiStreets...., i agree it is boring football and I had my fill of that with Lloyd. i can't even stand to watch on TV when I can't be there.
I never thought it would cross my mind, but this year for the first time I've actually thought about not renewing my season tickets. It isn't much about the money (although it doesn't help paying thousands for the home slate we'll be getting), it is more about the feel of the game day experience now. The way the AD is running things, it doesn't feel like they care about us. Maybe they never did, and it's just now becoming more apparent in the "business model, branding" environment.
Memories of attending games with my brother while in school, and attending now with my son, and making new memories tailgating with friends made at football games over the years are a huge part of the reason I keep my season tickets. The AD has nothing to do with that stuff, so it will be enough to keep me around... but for how long?? Don't know.
My situation obviously isn't unique. Could be that it is becoming wide spread. Pretty sure that is a good sign that the AD is doing it wrong. If we were winning games this conversation wouldn't be happening, you say? You might be right that the conversation wouldn't be happening out in the open, but I bet long time season ticket holders would still be quietly letting their seats go as the corporate branded world increases it's hold on what used to feel like an experience about the game, not about the money to be made from the game.
Can you clarify what you mean? You seem to be saying that when you're at the game, it feels more "corporate." I'd like to hear more about that, because from my perspective I feel like all the "corporate/business/branding" stuff is more apparent in PSD and similar stuff that is tangential to the gameday experience, but when I get in the stadium the experience is not that different (except I'll admit I think they do a good job with the "wow" factor). But then I haven't been attending as long as you have, so maybe there are some critical changes I'm not aware of.
A few gameday things:
Trying to create "traditions" as opposed to traditions forming and/or continuing on their own. The uniformz money grab in all of it's guises (alternates, un-retiring numbers, messing with the helmet). Advertising in the concourse areas. The seat cushion farce. Gimmicky halftime "shows". I'll throw in the faint rumblings about a mascot, and the abomination that was the halo. People messing with pagentry and traditions that do not need to be messed with, let alone messing with them for the sake of making more money.
One example from this past Saturday.... my son and I step out at halftime to get a pretzel and something to drink. There's a TV above the concessions area, and on it is nothing but advertising. No game stats, no highlights, no footage of the halftime show (which... on this Saturday was probably a good thing... my 6 yr old son.."Dad, why does that lady sound like that?").
Throw in escalating ticket prices juxtaposed with weak non-conference opponents, the wasteland that will be our home schedule every other year now, and the ticket games going on between the AD and the students (both in football and basketball), and it just looks more and more like the AD wants to bank on our love and loyalty to Michigan, but doesn't want to give any back to us in return.
This is so mundane I don't even know if I can take you seriously.
I didn't see mundane in there.
Circle K added things I overlooked to include...the uniformz and unretired numbers BS. The halftime show which evolved into an advertisement for "Victors for Michigan" donation/shame/guilt grab.
It's all slick packaging, advertising the AD and lame self-promotion, rather than organic gameday activities and retaining the pageantry and everything else we all loved about football Saturdays as students.
The fantasy the AD is now imagineering, that bringing your 5-12 year old will make a Michigan fan for life...if they can't afford tickets, there will be more empty seats.
And I repeat for those who insist all tickets will be sold...at least 6000 seats are unsold and part of the single tickets available for purchase via Dynamic Pricing. My row in Section 20, from my 4th seat to the aisle, ten seats...five were occupied. For Nebraska. With an 18 game home winning streak. That model of fandom is not sustainable...and fans will vote with their wallets, once their butts have departed.
My comments weren't intended to be exciting. A fellow MGoUser asked for clarification, so I gave it.
Not that I require confirmation from others to validate what I'm saying about my own game day experience, but the issues i talked about are far from unique. Many other Michigan fans feel the same about those things. Some don't... those people are serious too. Your implication that the ordinary nature of my points detracts from validity makes no sense.
seem to have a lot of that on this board/in this thread.
It's unfortunate, but not surprising, that opinions people hold dear, they're gonna hold onto for dear life! To those who dismiss your comments, or MGrowOld, or others, miss the fact that while MGoReadership is a slice of fandom, and a passionate one, the reality is...we know plenty of fans who are NOT MGoBloggerati, and they are equally annoyed/fed up, and looking to dump their season tickets, too.
Fandom should not be part of this discussion.
A natural knee-jerk reaction, I guess. Especially when the team isn't doing well.
I have a certain amount of respect for those who's fandom allows them to ignore what's going on.. all in for Michigan rah rah. I'd maybe be more like that if the Michigan athletic department was all in for us too.
Well here's an interesting bit of news I just got from my brother (who i've shared seats with the past 25 years). The guy who puts on our weekly tailgate, who has held 12 season tickets for over 30 years, who parks in the Blue Lot, who has hockey & basketball season tickets, who contributes over 50k or more per year to the university, who goes to every bowl game and at least two away games every year, who graduated from Michigan undergrad and then Dental school and has never missed a home game that I can remember is seriously considering giviing up his seats at the end of the year too.
Why? He said it's just not as much fun anymore and he's having a hard time justifying the expense versus the enjoyment he gets from the games.
I have a feeling if the season ends as badly as many of us fear this problem will become much larger than anyone anticipated.
That's so sad.
I feel like my football tickets are paralleling my hockey ticket experience and not sure what to do. When my wife and I graduated in 1997 we had very little extra cash but made having season tickets for hockey and football a big priority. We paid a $1500 donation for the right for four season hockey and football tickets. We got 4 tickets assuming some day we would want to go with our 2 kids and found a way to split them with friends and co-workers and were able to hold onto all 4 of them. Then hockey tickets went from $15 to $35 and the home schedules started to stink with a lot of bad non-conference games in addition to the abundant amount of stinky CCHA opponents. I decided since I only lived a few miles from campus I could just head down to Yost and get tickets to any game I really wanted to go to so I dumped my hockey tickets. I never really regretted the decision and I do get tickets to any game I want at face or less.
I am wondering if I am now in the same place with my football tickets. We have been blessed with the 2 great kids we always wanted and now that they are 6 and 8 they are really starting to enjoy the football games. The problem is that with the PSD, stinky schedules and cost of concessions it is making it hard not to consider giving the tickets up. My in-laws came into town for the CMU and IU games and I was able to get pretty good seats for CMU for $35 each and seats on the 40 yrd line for $10 each for IU. Granted those are not ND or OSU but the schedules for the next few years is full of IU and CMU games and I am a pretty good ticket hustler.
My wife is confident we are going to be really good again soon and tickets will be unaffordable for all four of us to go to games and is thinking of the long term. I am trying to determine if I am being a fair weather fan, a tight wad, or a smart business man. Maybe it is a combination of all three to an extent. I think since we go mainly as a family it is more about the band, crowd, tailgate and experience than the score but I can't fool myself into thinking that I might not be considering this if we were undefeated right now.
I have gone back and forth the last couple weeks and just am not sure what I am going to do. Just wondering if I dumped my football tickets if I would have as little regret as I did with my hockey tickets.
If I had season tickets (which I technically do, my uncle gives me one for helping him with things through the year) but not really, I wouldn't renew until I knew Borges was out the door. With Brandon demanding more and more money in litterally every aspect of gameday (parking, handicap passes, seat donation, ticket prices) and our garbage coaching that has no indidation of getting better, I wouldn't waste my time getting them. It's hard to believe I've gotten to that point, but it's here. And don't say it's because I'm a fair-weather fan, because I don't remember this many people giving up season tickets in the Rich Rod era. It's just the sinking feeling that we are headed in the opposite direction of where we need to be. If we make changes in the offseason, you can bet more people get their tickets back. But if the coaching staff all stays in tact, you can bet you just saw the 250th and final game with 100,000 Michigan fans in Michigan Stadium.
People lasted through Rich Rod and last Saturday was the FIRST loss at Michigan stadium since 2010!! Oh well, it's America and everyone can do what they want to. I need one more in section 24, so yay to more ticket dumping!!
It goes farther than just the team winning and losing. The overall experience is just not the same as it once was. You can say Dave Brandon is a ''genius'' all you want with his marketing crap, but his marketing is about to backfire hardcore.
so that's the difference. Also, tailgates are like family reunions for me. At the risk of starting a new argument, I wonder if people would feel differently if ticket prices were reduced and advertising was all over the stadium???
I was really opposed to it and I think I still am but being at the basketball game the other night at Crisler and they had ads going and it didn't really detract from the game or my experience.
Why is that the only option? The AD is consistently running 8 figure surpluses, and that's with the money they're dumping on gold plating the toilet seats in the field hockey locker rooms. Meanwhile, they are charging way more than market value (with increases every year) to their most loyal customers while simultaneously offering a crappy slate of home games. All that, and the team not being very fun to watch could easily be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
My point being that the AD could fairly easily reduce its budget to make tickets more affordable without being particularly austere. Hell, just scheduling a real home and home instead of paying Akron to show up and make us look bad could easily add some real money to the budget.
Great question Mabel re "why now?" For me it's the absence of hope that things are going to get better anytime soon and for all RR's faults - I always thought next season would get better. Once you live through the crater that was 2008 (and we could mentally attribute that to cupboard bare + new system) then every year he was here we got a bit further along. Not as far or as fast as anyone liked and I dont want to rehash the RR experinece in this post but things were improving so we hung in there as season ticket holders.
Now it's 2013 and I've got the exact opposite experience going on. From 11-2 and a BCS win (that I went to), to 8-5 and an Outback Bowl loss (that I went to) to now 6-3 but feeling much, much worse and staring straight down the barrel of 6-6 and a whoop-de-do bowl game that I won't be going to.
Today I find out that our OC tips his plays according to the Nebraska DC which confirms what I've seen with my own eyes and Hoke somehow denies it. And to make matters worse (for me anyways) our HC sees no problems with the play calling and has said it now twice. Not only am I not excited for the OSU game (first time ever I could say that) I almost dread going cause the crowd is going to be a sea of red and I really think we're going to get pummelled. I have zero faith in our offensive coaching staff and cant believe Hoke is letting this debacle continue. Which tells me he either doesnt want to change things or doesnt know how to change things and either one has made me give up.
I saw that you sat in Section 3 row 27. What seat numbers do you have? I ask you this because my whole family once sat in the same area. If you have been there for awhile there was myself and my two younger crazy brothers who never sat down. My dad used to tell Lloyd to "Turn the page" and one of his buddies would always stand up and yell "First Down"
The reason I bring this up is because it goes along with this thread. Our family had those seats forever. When the seat License was introduced my dad literally told the women on the phone you can have them I'm tired of losing 3-4 a year. I was crushed but I couldn't blame my parents. I was in college my brothers had sports we were eating tickets left and right. I got season tix one year in the RR era, great seats but it was a waste of money. It's to easy to get tickets.
26,27,28 & 29.
We are right next to section 2 - sit basically right on the 30 yard line. We sit next to a guy who played o-line on the 65 Rose Bowl team and he is more fed up than I am I think.
I was not on this blog in 2010, but I wonder what Rich Rod said about Gerg? Coach speak is coach speak. Remember Bobby Williams and his "I don't know" moment? Got him fired. Firing Borges right now will not help anything and Hoke knows this. Throwing him under the bus will not either. I just think that we don't know what is going on behind closed doors based on their media answers. ONe more year! You can do it! Then dump the tix. Don't give up after 3 like Brandon did on Rich Rod! (Did I start something??)
I really, really like your posts Mabel. You make me smile.
You should post more regularty - while I dont necessarily agree with you I really love your way of thinking and the way your express yourself.
Mgrowold, and don't give up yet! ( unless we have more negative yards rushing. Then I'm totally with you...)
I'm not going to discount those with serious misgivings, but the timing of it is kind of funny that "we lost for the first time that I had to witness in person in THREE YEARS!!!! That's my breaking point." It's not, really, but suriving the losses of 2007-2010 and breaking now seems...interesting.
I have no idea whats standard pricing for scalping tickets, but my buddies and I waited until 2 minutes after kick-off and were able to get 4 seats together for $70 total. Only ended up missing the first 3 minutes of the game and I can't even say I cared at that price. Will probably try to do the same for the Ohio game as well.
From stubhub after kickoff, or on the street?
Stubhub pulls tickets a certain amount of time before game time. For baseball it's two hours before first pitch. So I imagine he means on the street.
I felt rogered by the "dynamic pricing" thing and I will not enter that market again. The idea for the athletic department was "Why shouldn't we get a cut of the action if tickets are hot?" which was also a sneaky way around "We couldn't pry preferred seat $$ out of people anymore, so let's see if we can't make that money and then some on individual games." It ended up being "let's make sure the individual fan overpays for tickets when they buy them pre-season."
The athletic department has sold me its last football ticket. I'll still go to games, but I will scalp, beg, borrow, stubhub, or perform sex acts in alleys for tickets. They lost me as a customer.
As stated above, thousands of tickets were available...still are, for several games. Don't let anyone fool you into believing demand is so high that you can't find a ticket. Just keep looking...scalpers were standing at Stadium and Main as we walked in, charging VERY little.
Do what you think is best, it does not mean anything other than your personal choice as to what works best and makes the most sense for you individually. You get to vote with your money, whether buying season tickets or buying on Stub Hub or staying home and watching on television or listening on the radio or ignoring the whole schebang. Support the team how you wish, because that is the beauty of America, it is up to you. Let us not tell others how they should run their life, nor how they should spend their money. If you want to protest the product, and not buy tickets, that is your freedom.
With the advent of PSDs and rising ticket prices, I recall that This similar situation happened at Penn State, before the fiasco.
It's a slippery slope...
New people will buy tickets if current season ticket holders drop their tickets. As long as the money is flowing in David Brandon doesn't care. He is too arrogant to care about the fans.
How do you figure that? This year there was literally no season ticket waiting list. You can bet there won't be one next year either with the shit schedule. We're gonna see empty seats galore next year if Brandon doesn't do some major price cutting.
The waiting list is a scam; the university gets you to make a "donation" to get your name on the waiting list. The next thing you know, you have an offer from the university to by football season tickets. Season ticket sales are down overall and will continue to fizzle.
Soon the College Football bubble will burst... It is only a matter of time!
Was it ALWAYS a complete fabrication? They haven't really increased the seats THAT much to get rid of them all. Do the "donation" weed them out? If so, while it made them a few bucks, didn't the impression of demand do more for them, and would do even more now with dynamic pricing? Or have enough people just given up that people who were waiting are all now inside the stadium?
I finally got my very own season tickets this year after years of buying them off of other people. I donated more than the $500 for the "Interest List" to ensure I got seats and although I planned to have 2 seats, they offered 4 so I took them. I've gone to every game and sold almost every seat except for 2 tickets so far. But looking at next year's exciting home schedule and thinking about how I struggled to always find 3 others to go to a game this season, I was leaning on giving up 2 of the seats. I would like to keep 4 tickets but then I received my PSD renewal in the mail...
The problem I have is that my seats are in Section 6 which it shows the section is split (half being $75/seat PSD and half $200/seat PSD). My seats are in the middle of the row/section and when I opened my PSD renewal I was greated with a nice $800 bill ($200/seat). The whole PSD thing doesn't really bother me but the fact that the guy sitting directly next to me who also has season tickets may only get charged $75/seat while I get charged $200/seat for the same seats doesn't make sense. Why would you not split the $$$ designations by whole sections? There is a $500 swing by me getting the $200 PSD as opposed to the $75. I need to talk to the athletic department. Worst case scenario: I drop down to 2 seats. Best case: I negotiate my way into other seats with a $75 PSD. I wouldn't even be opposed to a higher PSD if I could be closer to the 50yd line.
Reading all the comments in this thread though has made me consider dropping them all together. The secondary market has been reasonably priced and with next year's home schedule so unappealing, maybe I should drop them and get them back in 2015. Decisions, Decisions...
Interesting thought...drop the tickets next year and just tailgate for the home games (we have a dish) if I don't feel like scalping. Then I could actually go to the (away) games that I'd want to see...it's @nd, @msu, @nw, @osu. All driveable places and wouldn't necessarily require an overnight stay.
*EDIT - I forgot about @rutgers...not interested in that one! sorry B1G (I don't want to see them or Maryland)
What's that? All I can hear in seven nations army . . .
I'm a Canadian Michigan Football fan who, for years lived in Chatham, Ontario, an hour east of Detroit. I now live considerably further away in Calgary, Alberta, but I'm still True Blue. Unfortunately it is becoming very difficult for me to justify keeping my pair of end-zone tickets. I have no choice but to sell-off most and sometimes all of my tickets each year as I can really only get back to the Chatham area once each season. I’ve been able to sell my unused tickets to friends or to fans via eBay and more recently Stub Hub. But PSD’s have made it increasing difficult to recover my costs.
What has really changed the marketplace is the rise of Stub Hub. Their instant ticket downloads have helped them capture most of the market. It is actually a great system. Since they have so much supply and with their dynamic ticket pricing, it has put a lot of pressure on sellers. Let me be clear, I am not advocating for Stub Hub. I am just reporting my experiences using them.
This past year, it cost me almost $400 to not attend a single game (sucks to be me!). The market would only pay me what it would pay me. My point is that all-in ticket costs including PSD’s are very high compared to what you can pay for the games you really want to see via Stub Hub. The U of M is not likely to reduce the cost of PSD’s (at least not likely for the end zone where they are already the lowest cost). So unless the U of M can put a much, much, better product on the field and continue to grow their fan base, they are going to price themselves completely out of the market.
I’ll always be a fan of Michigan Football. There’s nothing like The Big House on Football Saturdays. But going forward I don’t think I can justify keeping my season tickets.