Practicegate & even Tresselgate no longer look so bad
Reading through the coverage on Penn State, I realize how much we have to be thankful for at MIchigan. The practice hours debacle, the coaching debate, all of it, pales in comparison to Sandusky and PSU.
For that matter, what Tressel and TP and everyone else at Ohio did doesn't even begin to compare to Sandusky and Penn State. (I suppose they're relieved in Columbus: "Finally!! something big enough to take the focus off of us! ESPN will leave us alone now!!")
It struck me, how would I feel if this tragedy had happened at Michigan? What about Ohio? Or even Michigan State?
The Fab Five scandal, practice gate, coaching change from RR to Hoke, Moeller's resignation, they all fade in comparison.
I really feel bad for Penn State fans. How do you recover from something like this? Your honor, your reputation, are in ruins and tatters, all gone.
It has been hard reading Three and Out. You feel as if our dirty laundry is out in public, and that the infighting and pettiness is revealed for the world to see. However, the scrutiny from Bacon and the book are like a walk in the park compared to the proctological exam PSU is going to go through.
We have an awful lot to be thankful for!
November 8th, 2011 at 11:20 PM ^
fans have even thought about it in those terms; at least none of the ones that I've talked to have said anything about Tatgate or ESPN. What's happening at Penn State is so frigging incomprehensible that most people are still trying to get their minds around it; they're not rejoicing. If it had been Joe Pa running an escort service to recruit players, they might have thought that, but this goes way beyond football or NCAA violations.
ETA: Meanwhile, Penn State fans are now demanding we repeal the First Amendment:
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/8/2548574/the-news-media-needs-…
November 8th, 2011 at 11:57 PM ^
The ghost of Joseph Goebbels agrees. These kids are lost. Totally adrift.
November 9th, 2011 at 12:57 AM ^
This transcends everything - this is not about sports anymore or ten year wars. This is about life and the most disgusting thing that can happen.
Penn State fans need to separate football from life....and figure out where their souls are....
November 8th, 2011 at 11:23 PM ^
The Penn State situation is beyond football and the NCAA. I can't compare it to Ohio State but given what we know about that ship of fools tells me that they would have been inclined to handle this situation exactly like Penn State did.
November 8th, 2011 at 11:31 PM ^
Aside from Tressel, OSU did what it was supposed to do with TatGate A university attorney discovered the email, reported it to compliance, and compliance notified the NCAA before Yahoo! was tipped off. I think that even Tressel would have called the cops if notified that there was a kid being raped in his locker room. He's not Kirk Ferentz, fergodssakes.
November 8th, 2011 at 11:36 PM ^
Jokes we make about schools in the context of athletic competitions =/= real life.
November 8th, 2011 at 11:25 PM ^
I dont feel badly for PSU, their fans or for Joe Paterno. I feel very badly for the abused children and their families. To Penn State, its all about winning in football. They are 9-1 this year (or whatever it is).... and they are parading outside Jo Pas house "supporting him" for his truly tragic decision to support a pedophile rapist. Jo Pa, is parading to them smiling like a rock star politician and rallying his supporters.
It is sick disgusting, hypocritcal and just plain wrong...and if PSU were 1-9 instead this year, not one of them would be rallying for Joe.
Its about winning at all costs to those people. Even at the expense of children, apparently.
November 9th, 2011 at 8:29 AM ^
is being rightly criticized and scrutinized, but saying he "gave his support to a pedophile rapist" is hyperbole and not a supportable statement. Paterno had a moral obligation to report the 2002 incident directly to the police upon learning of it, and he failed in this regard but keep in mind that Sandusky had been investigated for something similar in 1998 and "retired"(got his ass booted out the door) very soon after. It has also came to light that Sandusky and Paterno were not at all on good terms upon Sandusky's departure. It is easy to think that JoePa called all shots at Penn State and was the final authority on all things including Sandusky's continued access to the locker room and the football facility, but Paterno was not Sandusky's former employer, Penn State was, and like it or not, Paterno worked for them too.
Paterno failed and his shortcoming is going to cost him his job, and his legacy of 40 years, and rightly so. But do not say that he gave his "support to a pedophile rapist." In doing so, you are making him as culpable as Sandusky and essentially saying that Sandusky's actions were with Paterno's approval. That is not the case and Paterno should not be though of in that light. For all we know, Paterno forced Sandusky out the door. Such a revelation would not absolve Paterno for his falure, but is looks possible and even likely that was the case in retrospect. Criticize Paterno for his failings, but don't classify him with Sandusky.
November 8th, 2011 at 11:26 PM ^
I just thought it needed to be reported somewhere but my contacts in Happy Valley say that the students are taking to the streets and there are riot police on Beaver Avenue. This situation just went from bad to crazy. Also JoePa spoke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O0EeTDWVPc&feature=youtu.be and students taking to the street: http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-state-paterno-rally-2011-11?comments=all#comment-4eb9b2b9eab8ea1637000017 . Someone might need to repost this because "someone" has blocked me partially.
-Chet
November 8th, 2011 at 11:36 PM ^
Everyone keeps saying "innocent til proven guilty" yadada like in that blog post and it seems to be the typical defense of Sandusky right now- yes it is an important tennet of our legal system especially in the court room and people feel obligated to say it because he hasn't been convicted yet. However, horrific 23 page grand jury indictments don't grow on trees and people like myself and most people that you know never get wrapped up in things like this because it's impossible to charge someone absolutely innocent with raping children. This is different than witness testimony implicating the wrong person for a murder which happens or anything like that because this isn't a single event that someone could have mistaken gotten involved with.
The bottom line is kids got molestated and raped at Penn State and anybody even passively involved should GTFO. Heinous crimes against innocent children were perpetrated-it happend- there's no doubt about that. Whether or not they can prove it sufficiently in court is another matter which is why we have the "innocent til proven guilty" statute- not to imply that we should reserve our judgement until after a verdict.
November 9th, 2011 at 7:16 AM ^
November 9th, 2011 at 7:48 AM ^
Im outraged at Sandusky, but he will get his day in court and the system will do what the system does. Paterno, McQueary, and the others, by their lack of action, insured that that day came 9 years, and who knows how many additional victims, too late.
November 9th, 2011 at 8:24 AM ^
Seems that much of this case hinges on what he is supposed to have reported seeing.
November 8th, 2011 at 11:44 PM ^
This is just so hard to even try to comprehend what the hell these people were doing. As a father, heck, just a reasonable human being if I were to have seen what was going on I probably would have killed the guy. For these people to have seen this, had this reported to them, and still have done nothing about it is morally incomprehensible!!! Heads will roll, there is no other way around it. The President of the University and the entire football staff are going to be gone sooner than later. They will probably get rid of Joe pa now and then the rest of the staff after the season. They will want a clean slate if for nothing else the PR nightmare if they don't. The University has got to know they are going to suffer pretty substantially in terms of lawsuits and bad publicity. I'm sure recruiting and that will suffer as well but that has to be the least of their worries. Whatever happens, it is more than deserved. To let this guy to continue to be on campus even until as late as last week when you know what they knew is just disgusting! I hope they castrate the son of a bitch and lock him up forever! I know they say innocent until proven guilty but how much evidence do you need!
November 8th, 2011 at 11:45 PM ^
This is just so hard to even try to comprehend what the hell these people were doing. As a father, heck, just a reasonable human being if I were to have seen what was going on I probably would have killed the guy. For these people to have seen this, had this reported to them, and still have done nothing about it is morally incomprehensible!!! Heads will roll, there is no other way around it. The President of the University and the entire football staff are going to be gone sooner than later. They will probably get rid of Joe pa now and then the rest of the staff after the season. They will want a clean slate if for nothing else the PR nightmare if they don't. The University has got to know they are going to suffer pretty substantially in terms of lawsuits and bad publicity. I'm sure recruiting and that will suffer as well but that has to be the least of their worries. Whatever happens, it is more than deserved. To let this guy to continue to be on campus even until as late as last week when you know what they knew is just disgusting! I hope they castrate the son of a bitch and lock him up forever! I know they say innocent until proven guilty but how much evidence do you need!
November 8th, 2011 at 11:48 PM ^
happened pretty quick!
November 8th, 2011 at 11:58 PM ^
whoa!!
November 8th, 2011 at 11:58 PM ^
whoa!!
November 9th, 2011 at 12:34 AM ^
Normally, these types of demonstrations in support of someone in JoePa's situation would disgust me as well. But you have to understand, JoePa is Penn State. There's not a single school out there that's defined by football more than Penn State. The school was NOTHING before JoePa's arrival. PA students have many local public options like Temple and Pitt (both in the high density population areas). Plus, the many NJ kids that go there have Rutgers. Penn State only is a desireable option for somewhat above average students who want the experience of being in a big college town.
The scandal will set back the school for years to come, more than imaginable. With all the different types of schools in the area, it's going to be awefully difficult for the school to recover.
It's not a stretch to say that current students and alumni will be tangibly affected by the scandal. That's what happens when one guy builds the school.
November 9th, 2011 at 12:45 AM ^
I've been trying to think like JoePa and thinking, what could he have been thinking when hearing about the shower incident? I'm trying to figure out a way in which what he did was justified. I keep thinking and thinking and always come short.
Not just him, but everyone on that chain of command. That grad assistant too who didn't go to the cops after he realized no one at PSU would do anything. What were all these people thinking???? How do you not do ANYTHING?
November 9th, 2011 at 1:38 AM ^
The only thing I can conceivably understand is if the guy that came to him said something completely different to Paterno the day he talked to him than what he said to the grand jury. If he really watered it down and possibly even decieved Paterno on what really happened. Despite that, there's still the 1998 investigation etc which leaves no doubt that they should've known something was really wrong with Sandusky. There still seems to be a big part of this story missing and I'm really anxious to hear Paterno talk about it at least as far as his involvement is concerned and not calling the cops etc. Regardless, he needs to do the right thing and step down because this happened on his watch and not nearly enough was done to address it.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:45 AM ^
Personally I'm not that anxious to hear him talk about it since I wouldn't believe a word he said and I've heard way too much about him, his integrity and his records recently. I just want him gone.
November 9th, 2011 at 8:45 AM ^
Think about it this way ... You know how many people stop and help when they see a car accident. We call it the "gawker effect" for good reason. People slow down to look at the carnage because it is interesting or appalling or scary. But not many actually stop to check if the passengers are okay or to call the cops. Same thing is as play here. These people - McQueary, JoePa, etc - all knew of something horrific happening. Much like the drivers-by they slowed down (told Sandusky to get his act together) to see what happened but never called the cops (they basically told their friends, coworkers, bosses, etc what happened hoping they might do something). Classic case of passing the buck .. The problem is these boys lives are at stake because they have a life of dealing with the emotional angst of this. It is sad that this PSU AD did nothing as a whole.
November 9th, 2011 at 12:45 AM ^
media created event
November 9th, 2011 at 1:35 AM ^
> The Fab Five scandal, practice gate, coaching
> change from RR to Hoke, Moeller's
> resignation, they all fade in comparison.
No they don't. I'm not going to compare State Penn's criminal, amoral, and downright disgusting acts to those problems you mention. It's apples and oranges.
November 9th, 2011 at 1:50 AM ^
When this initially broke out, I felt bad for PSU and their alumns as I knew they were going to have to live with the consequences of those few morally bankrupt people.
But now, after all this today with the "rally" and all, they can alll rot in hell.
I will always refer to PSU as Pedophile State U, because they deserve it.
November 9th, 2011 at 3:17 AM ^
No they don't. The number of fans, faculty, students, and even coaches that had absolutely no information about this compared to knowledgable people is something along the lines of 1,000,000s to 10s (ish). Those millions don't deserve this, and re-naming Penn State "Pedophile State U" is uncalled for. You should feel bad for any of them that accept that those 10s need to be ousted ASAP. Anyone that was at that rally, however, well, I don't think anything we saw will get through to them.
November 9th, 2011 at 10:13 AM ^
I felt bad for Pedophile State U when the news first broke and it was just tens.
Now we have seen thousands march for those who just stood by.
I think they have earned that name.
November 9th, 2011 at 4:22 AM ^
Think that might be a poor choice of words for a scandal involving the anal rape of a 10 year old?
November 9th, 2011 at 5:19 AM ^
PracticeGate and TatGate are about two coaching staffs, their players, and creative interpretations of NCAA bylaws in some combination. What is happening at PSU is a criminal investigation of systematic child sexual abuse, which is on a totally different plane than anything that went on at Michigan or OSU.
November 9th, 2011 at 6:05 AM ^
Thanks for clearing that up.
I think the point was, for as big of a deal as tatgate and everything was made out to be this really puts it in perspective. But thanks again.
November 9th, 2011 at 6:29 AM ^
But you were more elegant and to the point.
"For as big of a deal as tatgate and everything was made out to be this really puts it in perspective."
That is exactly my observation.
November 9th, 2011 at 7:00 AM ^
Sorry for that. I've had coffee now.
You're right really - here we are on this board, digging into the ins and outs of collegiate (and sometimes professional) athletics, and then this. It's hard to know where to begin really. All we can really do is just address items as they arise, and even then, that it was allowed to go on is still probably unfathomable, unconscionable (insert word which more politely encapsulates "WTF?" thoughts I have about this).
November 9th, 2011 at 7:23 AM ^
I hear you man. I'm kind of in shock over it. It's almost like you think there's this line in sports that you unconsciously think will never be crossed and then this comes along and obliterates the perceptions you had. Sports is supposed to be this safe place you go to enjoy life and at the very worst bicker about pointless facts and arguments. There are a lot of great people in sports that make great impacts in peoples lives but this unfortunately is a sobering reminder of how sick the world can be even in places that feel safe. I can't stop thinking about those kids and the men they've become and what they have to live with. Nothing is more important than kids. I'd give up every win and every joy I've ever experienced from Michigan football if it meant this would have never happened and those people could have their innocence and lives back.
November 9th, 2011 at 8:27 AM ^
The thing is, all of those previous issues you can make jokes about (tresselgate, TP, other scandals) because really its not a big deal and doesent affect the mass of the public. Its just people being idiodic and doing dumb things. Now with Sandusky you can never joke about it, because it is so sick and horrible you cant even laugh. He probably scarred many of those boys lives and their families, even some of us completley unrelated to the event at all. Sandusky is a sick monster who will someday burn in the deeps of hell (sorry to those offended). Honestley we should publicly execute him Crucible style, and all chear and shout horray.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:08 AM ^
- I don't know what will happen to Sandusky.
- I'm not sure what should happen to Sandusky.
- I don't know what will happen to Penn State.
I do believe a few things, however.
- We should mourn, and grieve, and remember what is important (protecting children, respecting each other.)
- Sandusky should never be in a position to hurt another child.
- Those who did not fulfill their moral and societal obligations (Paterno, the University and athletic administrations at Penn State) should be censured and held responsible.
Lastly, while I feel terrible for the children and their families, I feel bad for others.
- I still do feel sorry for Penn State.
- I feel badly for Paterno, and what his missteps are going to cost him.
- I even feel bad for Sandusky. Something went terribly wrong in his life (was he abused?) and this addictive behavior controlled him, scarring many children.
A book I found gripping and touching on some of these themes is entitled "The Shack." It helped me to think through the topics of vengeance and appropriate punishment for individuals like Sandusky. (Mind you, the book has some underlying religious themes, which aren't everyone's cup of tea.)
November 9th, 2011 at 9:01 AM ^
He said that Paterno did better than Tressel b/c Paterno reported what he knew to his AD. This statement implicitly equated players selling their jerseys in exchange for tattoos with the sexual abuse of children. This strikes me as a...problematic...analysis.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:13 AM ^
That's what Bob Ryan forgets. This was a crime and following the typical chain of command is not the best process for the victim. We have what looks like a serial sex offender and JoePa let this guy stay on the streets by following chain of command as opposed to just going to the police. So while Joe is "following protocol", other kids are in harms way.
Another awful part is that this holder of high morals let an alleged sex offender have access to not only the facilities but also his players, putting them at risk.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:36 AM ^
We might not all be able to define a moral lapse, but like pornography or cheating in terms of paying players or recruiting, I know it when I see it.
This is a moral lapse on Paterno's part, without question. The priority list of life is such that an innocent child takes precedence over your friends or coworkers or family. You can doubt the veracity of the claims, but you owe it as a moral person to both the child, his family, and to your employers and your university to report it and let the legal process do its work to determine innocence or guilt.
Let this be a lesson to all of us to remember that we are responsible for what we see and for protecting especially those amongst us that are not capable of protecting themselves. What those kids needed was a man of moral fiber and moral standing to stand up and be counted. It appears that did not happen in anything approaching a timely and intelligent manner.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:38 AM ^
You cannot compare the systemic and systematic cheating at THE Ohio State University to one terribly sick assistant coach commiting vile personal acts outside of the program. You are comparing apples to monkey wrenches.
One of the most sad things to come out of this is Ohio State sympathizers trivializing the pain of the victims by using it to somehow "lessen" what they did. The argument of "sorry your child got raped but it sure makes us look better now, doesn't it" is ignorant at best, and callous at worst.
Please don't support Ohio fans in their reprehsnsible disregard for the victims at PSU.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:53 AM ^
But I haven't heard or seen anyone discount what happened to the kids at PSU. I have seen/heard people say that anyone who compares Tressel to Paterno is being an idiot...I'm happy to personally compare what happened at PSU, which was a systemic problem, to what happened at OSU and say that what happened at OSU was a bicycle accident while what happened at PSU was/is the explosion of the Hindenburg.
November 9th, 2011 at 9:50 AM ^
Wow. Just wow...
What has transpired at Penn State in the last 48 hours is sad.
The only thing sadder is that Joe Paterno, the greatest coach in Division I history, is being treated so poorly.
So, people asking you to resign is "sadder" than finding out that 20 kids were raped and sodomized because no one could be bothered to stop him???
What happen to morals in this country? What happen to sense of shame?
Is this what we have devolved into? As long as you are a sports hero, you can do no wrong?
November 9th, 2011 at 10:12 AM ^
Your core point that the Sandusky crimes and their fallout eclipse the OSU NCAA follies and the trumped-up Michigan NCAA violations is inarguably correct. And the gravity of the PSU situation certainly lends us some perspective. OSU's cheatin' ways are not a crime against humanity - just a crime against sportsmanship. Apples and oranges.
But it would be morally wrong for OSU supporters (or Michigan supporters for that matter) to point a finger at PSU and then proclaim their relative innocence. Since most of us recognize this situation has no obvious NCAA component, any OSU apologist who references PSU and says "see, we're not so bad" is leveraging a human tragedy for their own benefit. That sort of behavior's contemptible. And I'm glad I've not seen much of it beyond an idiotic column by Lynn Henning in the Detroit News (in which he also implies that OSU's transgressions and Stretchgate are equivalent situations - leading me to again wonder why I ever read that guy's columns).
The only proper benefit to be drawn from this situation - in my opinion - is to learn lessons about how pedophiles operate and how institutions sometimes enable and whitewash the behavior. Many principals at PSU bear blame here, including prominent members of the football program and Athletic Department, so it is a fair topic for the football public to debate. But at its core it's not a football issue. Apples and oranges.
November 9th, 2011 at 10:53 AM ^
You can't compare what Michigan did with stretchgate, or what Ohio did with tatgate, to what happened at PSU. It isn't just a different level of magnitude. It is a whole different thing.
I do, however, feel thankful this didn't happen at Michigan. I believe something like this tragedy at Penn State could happen anywhere. For all of our troubles, for all the losses, for the so called horror of losing to Appalachian State, we haven't had anything like this happen. Yes, this is apples and oranges. This tragedy does indeed put our relatively minor problems into perspective.
Even though we complain about many things at Michigan, there is so much we can be thankful for.
November 9th, 2011 at 11:31 AM ^
Maybe the reason this resonates so deeply with us is that we believe Michigan is better than that. And I like to believe Michigan is - the culture at UofM is not one of the Athletic Department running the school. I pray that we never have the opportunity to find out, at least not in this sort of context. In any event, you have to hope that this scandal causes universities to re-educate their staffs and administrations as to how to respond to these sorts of crimes, etc.
I also agree with your earlier point of having general compassion for the PSU community at large. My heart goes out to the thousands of PSU students and alumni who no doubt are appalled at what has happened at their university. We all should be careful not to attribute the actions or inactions of relatively few (including a prominent few) to the many.*
The main point of difference - Appy State was a horror. Not of the scale or gravity of PSU (not even in the same solar system), but still a horror.
*Even the PSU students marching to support Paterno last night are likely only guilty of being meatheads, but it is awfully hard to feel sorry for those meatheads.
November 9th, 2011 at 12:28 PM ^
You raise an interesting question. Namely, could this have happened at Michigan?
My perspective is twofold.
- A pedophile can exist anywhere, and to be a successful pedophile, has to be in a position of trust, influence, and authority. What this means is that yes, someone like Sandusky could have landed at UofM.
- However, I would hope that the coverup and complicity of the AD and the university administration could not have happened at Michigan.
This is just speculation on my part. The important thing is for every program, including Michigan, to have safeguards in place so that something like this cannot happen.
I myself have had to make some costly decisions in the past, in order to protect children. Something like this just reinforces to me that it is always worth the cost to do the right thing.