Please explain this contradiction to me
I haven't been following this story until recently, but it seems like the Demar Dorsey situation and the Glenn Winston situation have a lot of parallels. I'm interested to hear this board's collective rationalization of how and why this Dorsey situation entails:
While the Glenn Winston situation represents:
Please enlighten me.
- The inspiring story of a young athlete struggling to overcome the bad decisions in his past, and;
- The inspiring story of a coach who had the guts and compassion to take a risk on a troubled yet promising young man.
While the Glenn Winston situation represents:
- The story of a piece of shit criminal athlete, and;
- The story of a corrupt "win at all costs" coach whose lack of integrity allows him to welcome piece of shit criminal athletes into his program.
Please enlighten me.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:15 PM ^
Go right ahead. That statement, combined with the fact that one was a student when the act was committed and the other was not, ends the argument.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
But the idea is simple - society expects that coaches and strong university institutions can help mold and mature a young man in a way that local high schools cannot.
Thus, stepping out of line while within the strong influence of the program sends a signal that stepping out of line as a high school sophomore does not.
If you reject the notion that college institutions and football coaches, specifically, ought to be able to mold, mature, and keep a young man in line at a critical time of his life - or at least if you reject the notion that it's easier to do so than it is for HS administrators and HS coaches (at least in some areas) - then I guess you could find a "contradiction" in the two lines of thinking.
In sum: when something happens on a college football coach's "Watch" - particularly given the weighty expectations we have for strong institutions to mold men - it suggests a failing on the coach's/institution's part. But if a college football coach and institution choose to take in a kid who has shown red flags as a soph in HS, it says something positively about that coach's and institution's confidence in their ability to discharge their "molding/maturing" duties.
We'll see if UM/RR are successful. But the difference - to my eyes - is exceedingly obvious.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:13 AM ^
Did any of this help?
February 5th, 2010 at 11:22 AM ^
Thus far, I have had a chance to hear everyone's rationalization, and they have not disappointed.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:35 AM ^
I believe you have confused the meaning of "rationalization" with "reasoning."
February 5th, 2010 at 11:43 AM ^
In the same manner that you fail to see the clear differences between the Dorsey and Winston situations, you fail to see the difference between a valid argument put forth in response to your query, and a "rationalization". You asked for a rationale for the distinction, and numerous board members have given you compelling answers, and then you term those "rationalizations". The logical conclusion to your argument is that anyone who is capable of making a distinction between these two very situations (Dorsey and Winston) is simply making a rationalization. That's very silly ... it reminds me of the old line about the law prof who would ask a student a question and say "Give me your answer, and then tell me why you're wrong".
February 5th, 2010 at 12:01 PM ^
Depending on how you spin it, there is:
A) a clear difference between Dorsey/Winston
B) a subtle difference between Dorsey/Winston
C) no difference between Dorsey/Winston
I already know the argument for options B&C – I just was interested in hearing everyone's argument for option A. Each one has some truth to it, and no, none of them are absolutely correct.
Look, Drew Sharp may be a piece of shit for what he's put this kid through. Actually, he's a piece of shit for a multitude of reasons.
However, he has successfully managed to highlight the hypocrisy of the average U-M fan, who would claim the so-called "moral high ground" by condemning one program's transgressions, while simultaneously accepting an admitted criminal into the fold.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:07 PM ^
"However, he has successfully managed to highlight the hypocrisy of the average U-M fan, who would claim the so-called "moral high ground" by condemning one program's transgressions, while simultaneously accepting an admitted criminal into the fold."
And you were SOOOOOO close to making some sense. Right up until that last clause. While Michigan may be admitting someone with an admitted juvenile criminal history (without any convictions), Michigan State failed to remove a convicted felon who committed the felony WHILE A STUDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY.
How you cannot see the obvious flaw in your initial question and your follow up points is stunningly mind numbing.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:17 PM ^
I think you're being a little disingenuous here, Agitprop. You asked for us to make a distinction between Dorsey and Winston, and despite the fact that numerous board members did that, you find hypocrisy in their positions. So, your post was dishonest - you weren't hoping to hear valid arguments; you were predisposed to believe that anyone who saw a distinction was wrong.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:43 PM ^
We have a bingo. +1 to you, sir
February 5th, 2010 at 12:15 PM ^
You really need to stop characterizing Dorsey as a criminal. He is not. Go get a dictionary.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:30 PM ^
Moron. Definitely.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:15 AM ^
Since both analyses you offer of the different situations can be true. Unless situations are identical (or at least relevantly similar) you can't say that coming to different conclusions is contradictory.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:17 AM ^
Floyd used to sit in the dumb row in school...vegetable mentality...I made friends with him years later when we got older....I removed a thorn from his paw
If Dorsey ever leads 15 other UM FB players clad in ski masks into an unprovoked assault of UM undergrads, then I will try to answer your question.
Until then, I can only suggest a possible remedy for your blindness. You may have your ski mask on backwards. The eye holes go in front.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
This is actually really funny – since Dorsey was arrested with a ski mask in his possession, while the East Lansing police report states that the MSU players, well... weren't wearing masks.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:02 PM ^
but they were punching women in the face while members of the MSU football team. If Dorsey attacks someone, I'll be the first to want to broom him out the door. This is a risk for RR, but until it fails, you got nothin'. I certainly wouldn't have wanted Dorsey on the practice field the day he left the courthouse. Is any of this penetrating your version of reality?
February 5th, 2010 at 12:13 PM ^
...in 15 guys, all on the roster, ganging up to bust up a fraternity pot luck. 11 charged, 3 already plead guilty. And 7 have already been "welcomed back" onto the team. (HT: State News: http://www.greenandwhite.com/article/20100126/GW01/1260316)
I know funny, sir. And this is not it.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:26 PM ^
or are you really this dense?
It's irrelevant whether the EL police reported ski masks---maybe they did not include all the multiple, consensual reports to the contrary...(and even though you are wrong about the facts about Dorsey--he was not said have a mask "In his possession"---that is hardly the point either)... Ask yourself: does it really matter whether Winston and his MSU teammates were wearing ski masks when they assaulted the students?
For your sake, I can only hope and pray that you are just a flustered, embarassed, and inarticulate partisan who's intentionally trying to "mask" the differences between the two players---between a then-15 year-old kid, who was never convicted of a crime, who has never even been accused of one as a UM student, and Winston, who has committed not a juvenile act of theft, but multiple assaults as an adult in collaboration with his MSU teammates.
Otherwise, I can just feel sorry for you.
You may not be the dumbest person around.
But most of those who are dumber are dead.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:18 AM ^
You know, I think the thing that convinced me with Dorsey and gave me hope that he's turned things around, and that he WILL succeed, is when I read in an interview with him that one of the reasons he picked U-M specifically so he would be far away from the people who had gotten him into trouble in the past.
In my experience, people who are very serious about changing their lives and staying out of trouble tend to distance themselves from it, geographically and otherwise. I think Dorsey is serious, and I want so badly to see him tearing it up in the Maize and Blue on the field, going to class and earning his degree from the institution that's helping him continue to turn things around in his life!
GO BLUE!
February 5th, 2010 at 11:21 AM ^
At least on the coaching part, is that Winston was on a college team at the time. Dorsey was punished, by his coach at the time, and has had an opportunity to redeem himself and show he has learned from his actions, which, while he may not have committed the crimes, was still probably making a mistake with his choice of friends or actions at that time.
Winston, on the other hand, faced no punishment from his coach, and within the year had gone out done the exact same thing that got him in trouble in the first place. If Dorsey had committed a crime on campus, and faced no additional punishment from Coach Rodriguez, it would be just as bad as the Dantonio and Winston system.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^
You must REALLY pissed about the sentence that the Manhattan DA threw at your boy Plaxico.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:30 AM ^
The problem with Winston was not being recruited or the fact he was allowed back onto the team. The problem was how he was allowed onto the team. Winston committed a violent crime as an adult, served jail time, then left jail to go immediately to football practice. Winston did not appear to have to earn his way back onto the team.
Dorsey made mistakes over 2 years ago, has been clean since. I think if Dorsey committed these acts in the past 6 months-1 year, Michigan could not take a chance on him. Furthermore, I expect if he is arrested for anything while at Michigan, he will be punished harshly.
Dorsey has admitted to his mistakes and seems sorry for them. Winston never even apologized.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:39 AM ^
There are few similarities between Dorsey and Winston at this point.
A better comparison would be between Dorsey and Jenrette(who was kicked off the team with Winston). Jenrette had a checkered past with multiple criminal offenses upon enrolling at Michigan State.
http://detnews.com/article/20091211/SPORTS0202/912110420/MSU-s-Roderick…
My question is, where was the careful vetting of this by the Freep before he was recruited and enrolled at MSU? The hypocrisy of the Freep is abominable.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:52 AM ^
The Freep only cares when it's a) a highly rated recruit who b) committed to Michigan. Jenrette was neither, so yelling about it wouldn't sell anything for them.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^
Well, another funny this is that Jenrette's second burglary charge took place over the Summer of 2008, and he still played this entire season. He was a starter on the MSU defense, without a word from the Freep. This is also deplorable.
http://publicrecord.hillsclerk.com/oridev/criminal_pack.doc?pcSearchMod…%
February 5th, 2010 at 11:49 AM ^
When Dorsey hospitalizes a fellow student, spends time in jail, then returns to play for a couple of weeks before beating up another batch of students, then the contradiction holds some weight. Right now, both are true statements, but they apply to completely different people and situations.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:04 PM ^
I hate people who think that contrarianism (i.e. being contrarian just for the sake of it) is some sort of virtue, as if being an obtuse douchebag entitles them to sit on a pedestal and look down at the rest just because we've taken a side (and are angry about it too, heavens to murgatroyd!).
But to answer your question would be to accept the premise of your question (that the Glenn Winston and Demar Dorsey situations are similar/the same), which I don't. And Clarence Beeks below explains why:
Winston committed and was convicted of committing a violent crime. Demar Dorsey wasn't convicted of any crimes and never committed a violent crime.The kind of ignorance it takes for you to equate "convicted adult criminal" and "juvenile not convicted of anything" has to be willful, IMO. Stupid like that doesn't happen by accident, you worked hard to be this stupid. Heckuva job.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:24 PM ^
did an internship with Drew Sharp, the man who took contrarianism to a new level.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:07 PM ^
Would Feagin still be playing college football if he had gone to MSU? Keep in mind that his incident took place well before the pot-luck massacre.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:09 PM ^
Exactly. Feagin v. Winston, not Dorsey v. Winston, is the appropriate situation comparison. Both Feagin and Winston committed their acts while students of the respective institution.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:45 PM ^
If we want to compare Feagin and Winston (which is far more apt), then I think that Dantonio letting Winston back on the team pretty clearly implies that Feagin would have been let back on the team as well.
Equivocating on the two offenses isn't necessary, but I'll do it anyway- if violent assault isn't a dismissable offense, then I fail to see how committing fraud is. Feagin would have been welcomed back to the MSU football team.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:19 PM ^
Doesn't seem like there's any contradiction to me.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:36 PM ^
1. OP is a troll.
2. Anyone who can't see the difference between what sort of decision making abilities one has during ages 15-17 and after that time is probably 15 years old himself/herself.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:44 PM ^
1. one goes/went to the undercelebrated 'State' school, who is in the minds of some the 'David' of competition
2. one goes to the heralded 'Big" school, who is in the minds of some the 'Goliath' of competition
breaks in the press are going to be cut for the school who historically struggles.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:07 PM ^
How about the Freep presents the way Rich Rod is taking a risk / win at all costs unbecoming Michigan Football with Dorsey and before him Feagin, while they have never applied the same scrutiny to both Winston cases and Dantanio's decisions?
February 5th, 2010 at 1:14 PM ^
Because you touch yourself at night.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:47 PM ^
That's another explanation for this "contradiction."
February 5th, 2010 at 1:28 PM ^
Please explain this contradiction to me.
MSU recruits Roderick Jenrette with an alleged burglary in 2005. No outcry. Dantonio sends him home to attend to family issues where he breaks into another home as a legal adult in 2008 and Dantonio welcomes him back from his 2nd break in. No outcry. Of course Jenerette finally gets kicked off with the fight.
Why such a big deal with Dorsey as a minor and before being on campus and not as big of an outcry for Jenrette at the time while being an adult on the team?
http://detnews.com/article/20091211/SPORTS0202/912110420/MSU-s-Roderick…
February 5th, 2010 at 1:41 PM ^
his arrest and legal problems was cloaked as "family issues." the burglary is why he was gone that year, not an incident that occurred while he was gone. or at least that's how MSU fans have introduced it to me.
not saying it changes anything... if anything makes Dantonio look worse.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:42 PM ^
I think technically you are right. After Jenrette's 2nd burglary Dantonio was deceitful and said Jenrette was taking time off for private family reasons. Maybe that is why the media didn't delve into the situation, because Dantonio...lied. Of course, the media didn't make that big of a deal about the slight of hand and the 2 burglaries before the infamous fight.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:45 PM ^
OK, Maybe I'm reaching here, but it seems to me that questions and vitriole around the character of Michigan's program garner exponentially more page views and paper sales than any reporting around State's. Am I off the mark? (Heh. Sarcasm.)
I think there are two possible explanations for Michigan getting such scrutiny and MSU not getting it. (1)news outlets get more attention by covering Michigan, or (2)people expect thuggery from MSU, so it's not news enough to qualify.
Either explanation has to hurt if you're a Spartan.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:44 PM ^
While you are certainly more well spoken and clearer than, say, brianshall, you are still just as much of a troll as he.
I'd suggest running back to RCMB where your groupthink mentality can justify a coach that allows 7 men that beat students of your eminent University back to represent said University as athletes.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:43 PM ^
I'd suggest running back to RCMB where your groupthink mentality can justify a coach that allows 7 men that beat students of your eminent University back to represent said University as athletes.You mean as opposed to the groupthink mentality at this internet site which willfully ignores the irony of lauding one troubled athlete for receiving a "second chance" while condemning another for the same?
February 5th, 2010 at 2:59 PM ^
You mean as opposed to the groupthink mentality at this internet site which willfully ignores the irony of lauding one troubled athlete for receiving a "second chance" while condemning another for the same?You do understand that the biggest problem we have with this is not necessarily with MSU or Dantonio, but with the Freep's explicit double standard in its reporting on troubled athletes, right? Please tell me you're not this dumb. Nobody rational, here or on any other fanblog, is going to pretend that every team member is a saint and every team member of the opposition is a devil. There's good and bad everywhere, and it's all in how the coach deals with it. Everybody (rational) here understands that, and there's nothing in the comments here to suggest otherwise. But you can't tell me with a straight face the Freep understands the above. That's the problem. This is a conscious decision by the Freep to hold RichRod and Michigan to a different, higher, and arguably unreasonable standard than it holds Dantonio and MSU. Dorsey is the latest example, and there are plenty others. I'm wondering what kind of thrill travels up your leg when you argue in bad faith, as you've been doing on this thread all freaking day. Could you describe that feeling to me, and why you like it?
February 5th, 2010 at 6:35 PM ^
Please tell me you're not this dumb.
*crickets*
February 5th, 2010 at 7:03 PM ^
Absolute crap.
No one's lauding Dorsey or condemning Winston for receiving a second chance.
Dorsey's being lauded for what he's done with that second chance to date.
Winston's being condemned for what he did with his second chance.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:15 PM ^
By the definition of your Username, I smell a Sparty.
February 5th, 2010 at 7:18 PM ^
That is all.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:00 PM ^
If Dorsey had committed to MSU would we have accepted that MSU had done its homework on this kid or would we have mocked I know I would have mocked.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:18 PM ^
The only thing that I would have mocked is the media's double standard of Saint Dantonio vs Evil Rod if they didn't throw a tizzy over a hypothetical Dorsey to MSU.