We're not supposed to lose any games
well that's just, like, your opinion, man
We're not supposed to lose any games
Ain't 100%. If sarcastic, I apologize. If not: kill thyself.
Kidding, but....well, yeah...
just dont agree that there is any game that Michigan is "supposed to" lose
Wow, I ws 100% convinced that this was sarcasm. Damn internet.
of some people actually can look at a roster and have a reasonable expectation that Wisconsin would win today based on the current state of both rosters. It's not like the Michigan fans who didn't think Michigan would win today were cheering for Wisconsin.
is becoming Notre Dame; the inability to accept reality (a precursor to moving forward) is WAY worse than cautious pessimism.
Michigan is decent-to-good this year. But it is not great, and is far from elite. Accepting that fact, especially when Michigan is returning 20 offensive and defensive starters next year and better times lie ahead, hardly makes us Sparty.
I've always hated the mentality that so many Michigan fans have that if we lose one game they're on the ledge waiting to jump. I've dealt with it my entire life and it makes me sick. Am I happy about the loss? No. But, I'm not going to wallow in pity about it. I'm going to be in front of the TV or in the stadium every Saturday for the rest of my life because I love the team, not for any other reason. Let's move on, go beat Ohio State and win our bowl game. The offseason is the time to bitch and moan about an unsatisfactory season, anyway. Are you really going to feel this way if we win our next two games?
i agree. we're not "supposed" to lose any games. we may not be favored to win and that's OK- it's not the end of the world to lose a game- but I never go into a game thinking "we're supposed to lose this game"
what happened today is exactly what michigans team is right now:
good offense (mostly in the 2nd half)
no reason to freak out or panic. but michigan is never "supposed" to lose. ask the players if they were supposed to lose and they'd tell you to GTFO
Good young offense with some stars.
Much younger defense that keeps fighting, even when the more experienced stars get injured.
True freshmen facing 5th-yr seniors. Kids right out of highschool facing behemoths about to go to the NFL. And they did make plays. Not enough, of course, but they did make plays.
Sure, I'd like them to win, but I'm a realist too. I love David just having the courage to go out there and face Goliath. They have another Goliath to face next week, and they're not going to give up then either.
I love this team, and I love to see them growing.
i agree they played hard and with a lot of heart and i can always stand behind my team when they lose honorably.
especially with next weeks game, i refuse to have the attitude that we're "supposed" to lose. these kids play too hard and although i'd be surprised, i wouldn't be shocked if they pulled it out next week. this team plays with more heart than the buckeyes ever have.
How do you quantify that? A Heart-O-Meter?
This game was a little disappointing, but going in it was pretty clear that we weren't going to beat Wisconsin if they executed well, and with a few exceptions they executed very well.
What we saw today was the same team we've seen all year:
The offense blew hot and cold and struggled early, but ultimately played well enough to win. Against a good defense, we had 3 long TD drives, 1 shortish TD drive, and 1 long drive that ended in a short FG attempt.
The defense has too many guys who would be redshirts or little-used backups on an average defense, and as such cannot stand up to strong offenses who are playing well.
Field goals are a problem.
Vegas hasn't gotten that message. They were operating under the assumption that the #7 team in the country should have won this game.
I'm gonna be givin' out a lot of negs today if this keeps up.
If you didn't think we were supposed to lose today, you're nuts. Wisconsin is better than us. They are the best team in the Big Ten.
as a Michigan fan you could reasonably expect to beat teams like Wisconsin. That's no longer the case.
Obviously we're all Michigan fans here so I agree let's cut through the vitriol. That said, there should be a reasonable forum to discuss our coaching staff in a non-douchey manner.
You will not be able to change their minds. Even if we were winning they would still want him. I will be waiting until the end of the year to decide.
Also, don't be get angry when people have a difference of opinion. You are entering douchebag territory when you enforce your opinion on others.
At this point I could go for keeping RR or replacing him if Harbaugh was the hire. Either would be fine by this fan. RR is improving and deserves another season, but I have a feeling that Harbaugh is going to be a really successful coach for a long, long time. Of course Harbaugh might bolt for the NFL at some point, a move RR is not likely to do, so there is that as well.
Just no Hoke (or any other realistic replacement) please.
I'm pretty much in the same boat but I'm not so sure that RR "deserves" another season because he hasn't really done anything to earn it (ie, beat a decent team). The team has gotten better but it's not like they're anywhere near top tier Big Ten level and there's really no reason to think that they will be next year (especially when Nebraska enters the mix).
I'm moving into this camp as well. Whether the solution is to retain RR and get a new DC, or to go out and get Harbaugh, I don't even care - I just want to see the program get fixed.
Agree with you all. I've been in the moderate camp since the PSU loss. I am fine with whatever DB decides. It's interesting how many arguments can be made either way with RR. Regardless, it's clear some form of change must happen.
I still say we spin around and give everyone the double middle finger anyway. GO BLUE, lets beat the Buckeyes
"It's a game we were supposed to lose."
I thought we had a chance, and watching this 2nd half, if we didn't have such a miserable 1st half (esp. 2nd quarter) it'd be a whole new ball game. What I meant was that we were picked by the experts to lose, they're 7th while we're unranked, etc.
I herebye dub you, the author of this thread, is the biggest douche in all of Michigan fandom.
I hereby dub the author of this thread rubber, and you glue.
Deal with it.
My heart told me Michigan was going to win, but my mind said Wisco is too experienced and mature to lose this game.
So you took the rational approach but...
a HUGE mistake IMO if Rich Rod fired. As others have stated before, this offense is on the verge of something special in the next couple of years. As long as we get a competent defensive staff for next year that can provide us with just a medicore defense, Michigan will be in contention for a Big Ten or even a National Title
"As long as we get a competent defensive staff for next year that can provide us with just a medicore defense"
Stop right there!!! That is terrible football philosophy. This isn't Madden football.
A mediocre defense w/ this offense= Oregon= #1 team in the nation. Confused. Please clarify.
with 17.2 points against. So Top Ten = mediocre? No.
I don't know why he chose Oregon as the example. It is definitely Auburn.
So they are completely average in total defense and scoring defense. They are terrible in pass defense. With a mediocre defense they are the number 2 team in the country.
A below average defense instead of a terrible one would almost certainly have given us at least 2 more wins this year.
"Hey if you disagree with me FUCK YOU." How great this blog has become.
That's not what I said. I'm just saying, we're on track with our pre-season expectations but some people were set on bitching about RichRod. You're entitled to your opinion but this is a Michigan football blog, not a complain about Michigan football blog when they've met expectations without exceeding them.
Yeah and maybe everyone doesn't agree with what's going on, and has something to say about it. This team has clearly not met everyone's expectations, thus people are dissapointed.
What exactly were their delusional expectations?
was that we would have a poor defense but NOT clock in as the worst in the NCAA. We are terrible at everything we do defensively and we have shown zero improvement all season. That was not expected.
The defense has shown 0 improvement all season? That isn't correct.
I'm being serious as I would love to have some hope for improvement.
No you wouldn't. Freshmen and sophomores either getting better at new positions or getting better period isn't enough for you. All that matters is that we give up a lot of points. Wisconsin has a better scoring offense than ours, but that doesn't matter either.
Improvement in any facet of the defense would be much appreciated. And you didn't answer my question, where have we shown improvement?
Way late to this, but I'm going through this enormous thread to gauge how we feel as a fanbase. (Survey thus far says: crappy, schizo). But great point on UW's offense. OSU was the more winnable game going into these two. We are going to be on the rise defensively once all these robo-senior Qbs (Chappel, Stanzi, Tolzein, and junior Cousins) are gone. If your secondary is so young that someone is always open, to have success you have to be facing a QB who is occasionally going to flat miss the guy. As we saw today, that is something these QBs excel at avoiding.
for a defense that doesn't get shredded by third string quaterbacks and running backs.
Didn't see any third string quarterbacks throw a pass today. And if you really think their third string running backs are comparable to other team's third string running backs, you are just a big sillywilly.
maybe we didn't see a third string quarterback because, correct me if i'm wrong but, WISCONSIN DIDN'T THROW THE BALL IN THE 4TH QUARTER! they ran straight at us over and over again and still kept pace with out offense.
first off, i will cheer for this team no matter their record or who is the coaching. i'm not one of those idiots booing rich rod when we're down 7. that said, not one big ten game this year has given me reason to think that michigan will return to winning the way they have and should with this coaching staff. i just don't see it.
any better I wasn't only refering to this game. It doesn't matter who the team is, UMASS's running backs looked like All Americans.
We won that game.
We get it. You're pissed about the loss and want Rodriguez fired because "this is Michigan" and "6-17" blah blah blah.
Would Harbaugh be better for the future? I honestly don't know. But Rodriguez is the coach and the de facto offensive coordinator and has put together the best offense in school history, one that's still full of underclassmen. The defense has serious problems, and while I know you'll say "Rodriguez is ultimately responsible," and you're right, the way in which he's responsible is by finding a good defensive coordinator. I'd like to give him a chance to do that and see what this team could do.
real question. i'm just curious. how long do you wait?
let's just say we see something similar next year. top tier offense, and bottom tier defense. finish with 7 or 8 wins and not compete for the big ten. what's your call?
It's not necessarily "how long" -- we have extreme deficiencies on defense right now, and it''s become painfully obvious that GERG isn't the answer. I would like to see Rodriguez get one more shot at finding a defensive coordinator who can do whatever it is he wants to do on defense.
If that guy can't come in and make a significant impact -- or the offense doesn't become so awesome that it doesn't matter -- then I'll be fine with moving on. But my main point is that we have essentially one of the best offensive coordinators in the country as the head coach, so when the obvious problems are on defense, I want to do everything possible to see if we can figure that part out while keeping a very good (and soon-to-be dominant offense) in place.
So to answer your question a little more directly, I guess next year will give us the answer.
If an experienced offense is so awesome that we can compete for the Big Ten title with 10-ish wins, that'll obviously answer any concerns.
If we get a new D-coordinator and it doesn't help enough and we're still middle of the pack in the conference, I think three defensive coordinators is plenty of opportunity to find somebody respectable. If RichRod keeps GERG and we're still just as bad on defense and mediocre overall, the same logic applies.
8 wins, if it's improvement (that is, we lose versus OSU in 2010), he stays. You never ditch consistent improvement. I guess I would also say improvement in defenseive metrics would be necessary. The statistical improvement in the offense this year has been stunning and a big part of why RR gets another year.
Why was your first paragraph necessary if civil discourse is your goal?
Mostly just a bunch of similar comments from SirJack and other people about how we'll never succeed against good teams in the Big Ten, etc., etc., despite the fact that we knew going into the game that Wisconsin was a better team and ranked in the top 10 for a reason.
It seems like every loss brings out the same exact boilerplate chatter, and it gets old. I wasn't trying to incite an argument, obviously.
I agree, what's the with OP? Telling us to F off and all... I want to read all the complaining threads! I love the 20 threads that pop up about how Rich needs to be fired. Who DOESN'T love complaining? Duh
Yep. This sentiment is even better as a board post, instead of just a reply to some thread.
Not that quality content comes out right after losses, but...
Michigan is going to a bowl anyway
Tough game for them to win against a really good Wisconsin team
Congrats to them
...for being sane. It is becoming rare and is highly appreciated.
what is sane about the state of our D? Did you really expect our D to give up 5+ yards even with 9 guys in the box? I mean, seriously? I thought they would be bad but they've shown almost no improvement whatsoever. They still try to tackle up around the shoulders and consistently throw weak arm tackles all over the place. We are the laughing stock of the NCAA and even Dr. Lou is taking shots at us.....
Texas is the laughingstock of the NCAA. Dr. Lou is laughing because he found raisins in his oatmeal.
I like both of you guys. People that aren't... ridiculously silly (trying really hard not to insult others).
Agreed. This team has a lot of learning to do but hell, did anyone have fun watching this game? 24-14 was a blast for me.
For about 6 minutes in the 3rd there was an actual offense on the field executing, so yes, that part was fun.
we are supposed to celebrate this? you only need to win 50% of your games to make a bowl. you have to basically try not to make a bowl.
I think anyone would have celebrated a bowl these past few years. Don't underestimate where we've been since 2008.
So...Michigan was trying not to make a bowl these past two seasons? It all makes sense now!
Wait a minute, NO IT DOESN'T.
Football isn't something you try to make sense of. It's not a math problem. You either enjoy it or you don't. I have enjoyed this season (remember 5-0 and Denard lock for Heisman?). It's a successful improvement based on where we were. If you think we never should have been so low, that's fine.
Nice posting career boss
This is pretty much awesome. Coherence is overrated.
There is still a game next week. We showed promise today but couldn't get anything going in the first half. Here's to opening up the playbook next weekend and leaving it all on the field.
Showed promise? Did you really see promise? What game were you watching? This is the same team that's been blown out (been down 3 scores) early in the second half against every team in the upper half of the Big Ten.
Did I expect the defense to be good? Did I expect them to be ready to compete with one of the most powerful offenses in the big ten? Absolutely not. They were down 24 at the half but they didn't give up and cut it to 10. Our offense got it together in the 2nd half and the D made some good stops but kept getting punched in the mouth. WE ARE NOT A GREAT FOOTBALL TEAM so don't expect to play like one. Our offense will continue to get better next year and our defense will do the same.
in the second half. They could have embarrassed us but took their foot off the gas.
In all fairness, running the ball 26 of 27 times is the gas when you're talking Wisconsin.
but they were shredding us in the air. And if you look at the runs in the second half, there was a lot more of running it up the gut in vanilla formations than the stretch runs that were gashing us in the 1st half. It seemed like they played with less intensity in the second half and then even Bielema alluded to it during his interview on the field when he was asked why they ran so much in the second half. He rolled his eyes and said something like: we score too much for the media's taste last week and now you ask why we ran so much?
They let us off the hook.
They didn't let us off shit. Let's not start this "Wisconsin let off the gas because they didn't want to run it up on us and played with less intesnsity the 2nd half" shit. They ran the ball becasue they averaged 8 yards a rush. They didn't have any problem running up the score last week, they would have this week if they could have.
Tolzien went 14/15 for 201 yards (13.4 yds per attempt). Why would you ever stop passing the ball if amassing the most amount of points is your goal?
And they scored on almost every possession.
They let us off the hook...plain and simple.
You would stop passing because your running game is averaging over 6 yards per carry. If they let us off the hook, they would have put their backups in just like last week. As I said before, if you are in a game where 1 defensive stop can get you within a field goal, the other team isn't "letting you off the hook." They didn't pass it because they didn't need to.
is that UW was so worried about us coming back they decided to become a completely 1 dimensional team and rely 99% on the run for the rest of the game even though they were 14/15 with 200 yards passing in the 1st half?
And to paraphrase your earlier statement: they didn't run up the score on us because they couldn't . . . even though they averaged 6+ yds a carry and 13+ yds a pass.
interesting theory. I still think they could have hung 60 on us if they really tried.
Yeah, because UW has shown sportsmanship and a penchant for keeping the score low, so this was a continuation of that trend. Ummmmm.....
That's because we're not in the upper half of the Big Ten.
A great offense + a terrible defense = Michigan being pretty average right now. They are what they are, and while it's not great, I think there's only so much to realistically expect against one of the better teams in the country.
I bet on Wisconsin today because they are, IMO, one of the top six or seven best teams in the country. We are not -- not yet. But I see plenty of reason to think that if the defense ever improves to decent or better, we will compete for national titles.
it's losing while looking totally lost out there. It is continuing to force feed a scheme on defense that we don't have the personnel to run. It is our offense doing jack shit until the score is 24-0. It is the constant turnovers. It is Spielman completely embarrassing us on tv and pointing out (correctly) every one of our shortfalls on D. It is the lack of ANY improvement in the kicking game.
I expected 7-5 but I never imagined our D would be the worst in the NCAA.
EDIT: Add to that all of the stupid injuries by leaving in guys like V. Smith in too long. Or not telling our guys to just take a knee instead of running the ball out of the endzone when you are 5 yards deep.
"Continuing to force feed a scheme on defense that we don't have the personnel to run."
People said the same thing about the offense a couple years ago, look how that worked out.
to provide evidence to back up this post...
being down 10 in the 3rd quarter is not out of hand (Today & PSU)
being down 7 in the 4th quarter is not out of hand (Iowa)
Wisconsin had their starting defense play the whole game. Also you accused the offense of not trying. Why am I even bothering to respond...
Michigan never had the ball with a chance to tie in the second half of games against MSU, Iowa, PSU, and now Wisconsin.
when the offense started moving the ball. Where was the offense early on in those games?
Just making a game competitive is nothing to crow about. A great or even good offense is there at the beginning, not just when you are desperate to score to get yourself back in the game.
You've done this after every loss for three years. Doesn't it get old getting on and off the bandwagon with every up and down?
i'm not on and off a bandwagon. i cheer for them every week. i don't leave the stadium early or change the channel when we're losing.
when they struggle, i look to what i think the problems are and wonder what can be done to fix them. that is NOT bandwagoning.
Scroll up. That's a response to exmtroj
You mean like the 21 points in the third quarter? Or the 67 against the Illini? Or the Notre Dame game? Yeah no. No offense does well every drive. If we had a kicker and a defense that could get us the ball back more often, the numbers would be even higher. And after the last few years why would we fire Rich for Harbaugh? We would have to completely revamp the offense and rebuild it from the ground up again. Let alone if he even decides to come to Michigan which people are really just assuming he would because he's a Michigan guy. We are not immune to our programs struggling. Look at Texas. They were supposed to be good especially on the Defensive side and yet they probably wont even make a bowl game this year and this was without a coaching change, or transfers, or a rash of injuries.
It worked out pretty shitty a couple years ago actually. And our offense is incredibly overrated. Have they performed well against a top level team without being down 20 points first? And don't say Illinois. They aren't a top level team and if they were we would have been down 20 after giving them the ball over and over in the 1st quarter.
is that the offense itself is still incredibly young. How many seniors did you see make a play on offense today? There was one where Webb made a catch. And Schilling or Dorrenstein played...but yeah, that's about it for seniors on offense.
I'd say they've performed decently against top teams. They are getting tons of yards, and while yards is not points, it still counts for something. The problem stopping us on offense is turnovers. Again, turnovers happen with inexperience. It is even more likely to happen with you couple multiple inexperienced players together, hence Michigan's problems. Next year it should be much better.
Rich's first year, we had two first year QBs, second year we had two first year QBs, third year we had pretty much a first year QB still in Denard with limited experience in the running game. Tate's fumbles? I guess that's just Tate and I have no excuse for that because in my mind there is none. Denard's interceptions and fumbles? The fumble today was young players not executing perfectly as Smith ran into Denard. The interception, inexperience again as he'll learn to pump fake and get around that defensive end soon.
People don't understand that you aren't going to be perfect right out of the gate. These kids played in high school, had one year experience and suddenly we expect them to be perfect. That's ridiculous. Should our defense be this bad? No. Did Rich fuck up? Yes. Should we forgive and forget? Undecided yet, but I'm more inclined to say yes with what I saw at West Virginia and the glimpses I've seen the last two years.
First of all, I'm beginning to believe less and less that Rich's success at WV really means anything as for whether or not he will succeed at Michigan. Michigan right now would be at the top of the BE, just like WV was when Rich was there.
You're counting Denard as a first year QB twice in a row. I agree, hes young, the offense is young and that causes mistakes. But to just excuse the absolute inexecution in first halves against good teams is not right in my opinion. By that logic, RR should start DG next year then his job will be safe again. "Oh look, we have an inexperienced QB, wait till next year."
The yards we rack up against good teams is in the 2nd half. Look up the stats. I havent looked it up, but I'd guess 2/3 of our yardage against these teams comes in the last 1/3 of the game (when it is all but already decided).
I don't want to talk about the defense. No excuse there. Youth, injuries, blah blah, yes I get it. Its reasonable the the defense is below average, not reasonable that they are commonly mentioned as the worst D in 1a football.
I'm not advocating firing RR yet. We have one (two) more game. But I'm not just going to assume things will get better automatically b/c of youth and that he should get a 3rd free pass after not meeting expectations (his own expectations were bowl eligible and in discussion for top 25 at the end of the season. That is clearly not going to happen)
the difference between a 335 and 44 or 34 D is not as cavernous a change as the difference between a spread O and a pro style O.
People said the same thing about the offense a couple years ago, look how that worked out.
Problem: while our head coach is considered one of the top offensive minds in the game, the same can't be said of our defensive braintrust.
I didn't expect we'd have the worst defense in the nation either but I also didn't expect to have one of the best offenses in the nation starting primarily underclassmen.
And you're blaming injuries on the coaching staff because they kept in starters TOO LONG?! So you wouldn't be one of those complaining if we took our starters out of the game because it was a lost cause? He's our top runningback we're not going to take him out if we think we can score. And he got injured because he tackled with his head not because he was in the game too long. Just quit while you're ahead and save the "EDIT" button for an actual coherent comment.
As for being 5 yards in and not running, we were running on them well on ST today and Gallon was getting a ton of yards and still made it to the 35 before fumbling. Yes yell at him for fumbling but not for taking it out when we're consistently getting to the 40 yard line. If he hadn't fumbled he would've taken it out to the 35 instead of the 20. That's a win...running at that ST unit was a win all game.
when there was less than 4 minutes to play and we were down by 20 with 2nd string WR's and our back up QB out there....yes, at that point I think your starting RB should not be in the game.
Check the replay of the game...Gallon got to the 25, not the 35, before fumbling. Frankly, I would trade 5,10 or 15 yards in field position for 0 TO's in ST.
Ok Gallon got to the 27 you were correct but still when you need to advance the ball in a hurry and you've been consistently running on an exploitable unit (frankly UWs only exploitable unit) you take advantage of it. It's not a guarantee you fumble the ball and it's not a bad idea to run out when you're advancing the ball as much we had been up until that point just because you're afraid you'll fumble. If you're complaining about that complain that it was Gallon back there not because of TO insecurity. If that's the case do we not field an offense because we're afraid of turning the ball over because V.Smith, Denard, Tate, and Hopkins have all had multiple TOs this season? What kind of logic is that?
And although Tate is technically our backup QB we also have put him in the game many times for quick scores and Stonum had appeared to be injured (because it's football and it's physical not because he was "in too long"). Maybe that explains why some of our backup WRs were in. Your criticisms only make sense in hindsight not because they follow any standard strategy or logic of the game. Gallon doesn't fumble he could've run for more than 27. Vincent Smith doesn't tackle with his head and he doesn't get concussed.
not because he was going to bring us back from 3 scores down in 4 minutes.
As to your point on TO security: do you realize the meme: "HOLD ON TO THE DAMN BALL" started because of our TO's on special teams? That was 3 years ago and we still have problems with TO's on special teams.
At this point, I would absolutely prefer a kneel down for any kickoffs caught in the endzone and for our returners to get as far upfield as they can but to GO DOWN on contact instead of dancing around for an extra 10 inches and risk the turnover. We usually cough up the ball when our returners are trying for that extra inch, not upon first contact. For now, ball security is much more important than an extra yard or so.
By that logic, guys should just run up to the 15-yard line and fall down on kickoff returns so they don't get hit (and risk fumbling) rather than trying to get out the 25 or 30.
He just needs to hang onto the ball.
I would have no problem with them doing exactly that....getting out to the 20 and getting out of bounds or hitting the deck after first contact.
It's funny, because those second string WRs are our starting receivers now...Stonum, Odoms, and Gallon are all injured now. It's so sad.
These are coherent points. I agree with the special teams stuff. The one criticism that I have is that we apparently haven't considered hiring a special teams coach. I think USC just did, and they have some ridiculous improvement in that regard. Something like matching their last 5-years-worth of kicks blocked in 5 games this year (I'm remembering roughly - that was a local column in the Tucson newspaper). I know almost nobody in the NCAA has a ST coach, and we would lose a much-needed coach elsewhere, but if there is a team who needs a ST coach, he is we.
I am really hoping for no Mgomeltdown today. This season has been full of highs and lows; I am taking away the Bowl berth as enough to keep my chin up. And if that doesn't work, the whiskey will.
I think it is because the end is nigh. There is little room left for hope that the season will exceed expectations. Oh well. For me, though, that is a reason to enjoy the few remaining games we have! It's a long offseason. If you spend the next two games pouting, you are going to miss the fun of a U-M football gameday. Even if it results in terroble things coming out of Bielema's pie-hole.
And have a young team. Look for even better results next year.
Keepin' the faith.
Remember when losing to Wisconsin really hurt? Remember when just making a bowl game was nothing and it was all about the Rose Bowl? I remember that. Shit sucks right now. Taylor Gang or don't fire Rich Rod
How far have we fallen as a program when our fans expect us to lose??? I ALWAYS believe that we have a chance to win ANY game. Thats why they play the game. Stats and national pundits mean nothing.
It was well known that we'd lose by 20 points? That they'd complete more than 90% of their passes for 13 yards per pass and then entirely eschew passing the ball in the 2nd half because they could just go "rock rock rock rock..." and not punt the entire half?
Do you have a pulse?
"If so, I might not have a pulse but you have no brain."
This is classic. Of course you root for the team, but going into you had to have some kind of idea that they would get man handled up front against what is probably the best offensive line in the Nation.
The issue isn't that we lost, it's how we lost. The line was Wisco by four. We lost by 20. They did this despite calling only one pass in the 2nd half.
As formerlyanonymous said, running every play is not going into a shell for UW. Even cromagnon running calls are effective when they are your bread-and-butter. How many times did Carr do this exact same thing? There were a coupla games every year where all we had to do was show up and run and we would win. The reason we have a new style is that the Carr strategy seemed to fail in the clutch. Watch what happens when these teams (who have played nobody of note - UW out of conference heavy was Arizona State) get behind.
Wisconsin has a very good passing attack that thrives off of play action. Saying they didn't go into a shell because they love running it is hyperbole. They're not Air Force.
The idea behind their offense is that when a defense plays them honestly they'll get a positive result out of their base (running) plays. Eventually, if this is the case, they assume the opponent will cheat to shut the base plays down. That's when they'll hit them with a play action pass and make them pay. They were letting us cheat all we wanted to stop the run and we couldn't. They were happy to just drain the clock, if they had wanted to they could've gone over the top easily, though, and the scoreline would have been even worse.
And I don't remember a time when Carr called one pass in an entire half AND Michigan didn't have to punt once. And that certainly never happened when his qb was as robotically efficient (90+% completions 13+ ypa) as Tolzien was in the first half.
I was encouraged by our defense today!
Lol ever the optimist, that's like saying "I'm impressed with the police department catching 1 out of every 10 bank robbers"
I don't recall Wisco attempting a single pass in the 2nd half. We KNEW they were running everytime, and we were powerless to stop it. And this is encouraging, how exactly? Sure, they did OK early in the 1st half...but a game if 4 quarters long.
In short, I hope you were being sarcastic. (If you were...sorry, I haven't bought a sarcasm meter yet. I'm pretty poor.)
Oops forgot we lost and everything needs a "/s" with it.
mistakes and execution on D and Special Teams cost us. We could have won this game.
We could have won this game.
We would have been in the game had we not had so many drops, which are absolute drive killers. Maybe we score more, keep our D off the field, at the very least leave them with bad field position. (which would mean something if our D could tackle) I'm not saying we should have won, just that we could have.
This is not domination:
1st Downs 26 24
Total Yards 558 442
Passing 201 274
Rushing 357 168
Penalties 2-25 1-10
3rd Down Conversions 5-10 6-12
4th Down Conversions 0-0 1-2
Turnovers 2 2
Possession 36:59 23:01
(Copy/paste job didn't turn out well, but you can look up the box score for yourself)
Do you guys ever get sick of making excuses for how horrible these last few teams have been?
Actually probably not. I just wanted to put out there that personally, I would be sick of it right now.
And your offensive comparison has no merit. We didn't start scoring until they were up by 4 scores and settled into a softer defensive scheme. Our offense is incredibly overrated; it puts up big numbers in this matter every week, same formula (suck when it matters but then score a bunch when the other defense softens up).
Hey, just because someone speaks their mind, doesn't make them a douche bag. If you cant handle it, don't read it. A lot of people are frustrated after losing in blowouts to Michigan State, Iowa, Penn State, and Wisconsin. Some of those games might have been close at the end, but we all know they weren't even close. People tend to cool off after a few days, anyway. They sooner you let them vent, the sooner they get over it. GO BLUE.
You beat us to it.
If we play a complete game, we can play with anybody, but it is hard to get consistency out of such a young team.
On the flipside, Wisconsin (like the rest of the Big Ten) loses a lot of players next year, while we return almost everybody.
Cut bait after this season DB, please!
As a fan of Shorts Brewing, I beg you to change you avatar if you're going to say dumb shit.
I thought the team played well in the 2nd half.
But unfortunately, I'm still a douchebag.
We had one working, the offense, but even then it still wasn't that great despite the 28 points they put up in the 2nd half. Special teams are very special this year. Defense couldn't stop a one-dimensional always-run offense in the 2nd half...which is just sad.
You're not a d-bag...you're just wrong. You might be able to say they played better, but "played good" is a stretch.
I feel like a douche for saying it, but MSU winning makes it hurt a thousand times more.
Except that MSU did not win that game, Purdue handed it to them on a silver platter.
MSU is the fucking worst 10-1 team I have ever really not paid attention to
They all better enjoy this &*^% while they can!
Especially you Spart-an-Nipus!
Spielman ( I can't believe I have to reference a Buckeye - Ouch!) said it best today. Once the talent is upgraded to a few studs (future NFL prospects) on defense, we're gonna kick some ass!
The current defensive staff.
I want to go there so I can be part of team that but for Purdue in the rain w/o a QB, hasn't held a B10 team to less than 34. That'll help me get the scouts attention. And I'm sure I'll develop there.
This is a good point. And I don't think the staff will be the same. I was worried when I saw rumblings of Roh or the Roh family having to intercede on his behalf to convince the staff that he is not a linebacker. I mean, that's something that should not have happened. And I think that the defensive coaching staff is going to get reshuffled, and if RR allows systemic problems to remain, he will be gone, as he should be. But this is not the time for a wholesale overhaul. It's time for rational assessment. The defense and special teams have been cover-your-eyes awful. The D will improve with age, but some coaches will probably not be around to benefit. Which is fine by me. But Magee and RR have done a great job with the offense.
I hate Michigan fans. We are sanctimonious (sp,dont care) self righteous assholes. Our 'We're Michigan, we're supposed to win every game' bullshit is tired. Nobody cares about the past, we are a rebuilding team who is improving overall, despite the defensive woes. If you hate the coach, the direction and the overall status of the program, then go back to your Bob Ufer tapes, practice saying Meeeechigan in the mirror and wallow in the glory days. Because nobody cares.
We should adopt the EMU tag line. Embrace the process. Because it's gonna continue, RR is going nowhere and it's going to take a couple more years. Sorry assholes.
You clearly know nothing about college football. Mark Dantonio won 9 games his second year and 10 in his fourth.Tressel won a national title in his second year. Saban won 12 his second year.
But Michigan, the school that has as many resources as anyone, needs 5 years.
And here I thought UM was the place for the leaders and best. I guess I was wrong.
see y'all tomorrow
And Dantonio went 6-7 last year, his 3rd year on the job. RR has an outside shot at 9 wins in his 3rd year.
As for Tressel - the guy knows how to coach his style of play and recruit well. Kudos to him. But since 2002, he was exposed a bit against teams from the SEC and other schools that were pushing the innovation envelope - if he can't out-talent you, he doesn't tend to win. But I like that UM took a chance and tried to create a team that could compete with those teams, even if it hasn't panned out that well yet.
Maybe we do. Honest assessment: I can't refute the contention from my OSU friend that OSU has been better nationally than U-M for the last 60 years. Maybe tradition doesn't net you all the 5-stars it once did. Also, with Conference USA and the MAC getting their games on TV at almost-as-good a rate (especially in sports bars) as any big conference, why not be a big fish in a small pond? We need smarter tactics, and RR beats the system by using non-studs in a machine-like way. Unfortunately, their is not a comparable defensive strategy. So that needs to improve, but I don't know how. We can't create Norm Parker-like consistency.
Just because u say it's so doesn't make it so, jerk. If you're so bent out of shape go hide under a rock and go watch the replay of the 7 games we won this year. That should make you feel better. People are frustrated and are making valid criticisms regarding how much progress there has been for a team with resources like Michigan. If you haven't figured it out, we are not Bowling Green. Lowering the bar does not make it progress. I personally could care less if Rich is coach next year or not, cause I will still root for them to win. But to personally attack people for stating the obvious is plain douchebaggery.
For what it's worth, you did spell sanctimonious correctly.
Yes, Michigan fans suck so bad, we've only led the nation in attendance 36 of the last 37 years. We should be more like EMU fans - all 5,000 of them.
If you want to point fingers, don't look at the fanbase. A lot of programs would be playing before tens of thousands of empty seats after the last two years, and in this economy.
This year has shown signs of progress (on offense at least) and Im content with progress. Whoever here gets bent out of shape about the freshman secondary not being able to tackle at a collegiate needs to put the pipe down. They're doing the best they can and they're not giving up.
The whole defense is a fail as is the special teams. Many of the offensive players have been in the system for 2-3 years. The offense is younger, but they do have experience.
This is a program that has serious issues in year 3.
Offenses can struggle even with experience, and Wiscy's defense isn't that bad. Probably a bit overrated - UM did put up over 440 yards on them - but there is a reason that team is 10-1. They have talent and experience, and they exploited UM's lack of talent and experience. As for the special teams, I agree they have been really bad this year, but that is the one portion of a team that tends to have the highest variance. They have been really bad this year, but you expect that they will progress to the mean next year, which would be a huge improvement. Also, Hagerup has been very good as a freshman punter save for the early-season yips.
that our O put up all that production after we were down 24-0 and the Wisky D went into prevent mode? This is the 3rd game that's happened and it is driving me nuts that our incredible O can do nothing against the better teams until the game is out of hand.
Could we all please stop saying the game was out of hand? It was a ten point game two different times in the 3rd quarter. A game is not "out of hand" if you can get 1 single defensive stop and possibly be down by a field goal.
See above: it was not so out of hand that UW could have run backwards and won. We get one of those onside kicks and we are right back in that thing. Should it have come to that? No. The team was awful in the first half. But we are not a great team. I appreciate how infuriating that statement is to you, you are thinking, "But we SHOULD be a great team." I am just not as sure that we should be, given the current situation. And I appreciate that you are thinking, "The current situation should have never happened! We are Michigan!" I am also not so sure about that. We rolled the dice to get a coach to win BCS games, not go 10-3 with a noncompetitive loss to USC. That we cannot win our own conference is frustrating, if winning BCS games was the point of hiring RR. All I am saying is that the dues we are paying are required in my mind in order to get the payoff for the reason we hired RR in the first place. But if we improve every year, I see this team on the way to that goal.
Hearing that we are supposed to lose a game is unnacceptable in itself....This is Michigan football, we aren't supposed to lose.
Criticism ≠ Douchebaggery
I'm getting just as sick of the people who seem so appalled that people are getting tired of watching the same crappy defense/special teams week after week after week as I am of the people who do nothing but criticize.
...people are getting tired of watching the same crappy defense/special teams week after week after week...
Kids don't get (significantly) older, stronger, or more talented mid-season. I agree that it's frustrating as hell, but expecting this defense to get significantly better isn't reallistic.
Now, special teams... well... fuck special teams. Stop kicking the damn ball.
True, but there are a lot of little things the coaches are doing that constantly piss me off, such as putting Gallon back there when he has shown he can't take care of the ball. No idea why it took an injury for him to be taken out. That kind of stuff is on the coaches and should not happen.
But again, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of special teams, lest my head asplode.
I don't disagree about the criticism, and your comment about keeping Gallon in is valid. But unfortunately, this same crappy defense is what we've seen for a couple of years now, and I'm not sure how that will change this season. And let's not forget - Wiscy has exactly 1 loss and has dominated basically everyone they've played since that game at MSU. They might just be the best team in the B10, and UM definitely is not. That will likely change next year when they lose so many seniors and the UM players mature, but it happens.
For all of those who want RR gone, I hope you enjoy being really disappointed and feeling empty inside as things get turned around.
RR is not going anywhere, especially this year. And with the schedule next year, we could easily win 9 games even with little or no improvement.
So for the RR haters, you'd better buckle up.
When things turn around, it will be all the sweeter for fans like me because I know he will be proving all of you wrong. Meanwhile, you will be hating it because you've developed this hatred for the man. You won't be far off from rooting for Michigan to lose just so you can get what you want. And at that point you might as well pick another team to root for because you're not a Michigan fan in my mind.
If we fired RR, it will just be Fire (insert name here) the new coaches first 1-2 years. 7-4 with a shitty defense is a great record. Lets make it 8-4. F the bucks
Yeah? Go through the 2011 schedule and tell us "haters" where those 9 wins are going to come from.
For all of those who want RR gone, I hope you enjoy being really disappointed and feeling empty inside as things get turned around.
I don't think it's fair to assume that anyone who thinks a coaching change is necessary will feel "empty inside" if RR does, in fact, succeed. I think we all want to see this program do well. Personally, I'm reaching a point at which I don't even really care what happens with the coaching - I just want to see our program return to its former status.
You are giving too much credit to negative people. Nobody in our society ever admits when they were wrong about their opinions. I'm not hoping the team wins to prove half our fanbase wrong. I am hoping our team wins because winning is fucking sweet. I remember wearing my U-M gear to the bar in 2006 (pre-OSU) and being like, "What, what, motherfucker? Woodley gonna fuck you up like a goddam accident." And I was 26. Football allows me to act like a child, which is especially great if you are winning.
The loss is one thing. Wisconsin is a very good team. Today just felt like a waste in terms of developing anything or learning anything new about this team. I know it wasn't, but it just felt like it. Probably because it was so similar on the visual surface to MSU, Iowa and Penn State.
This was painfully similar to those games, and that's exactly what made it frustrating -- it just killed that tiny little sliver of hope inside me that we had developed enough over the past couple weeks to beat an excellent team.
We haven't. And that doesn't surprise me or make want anybody fired (except GERG, but I've been wanting him fired for a while now).
The thing is, I expect to see some growth this year after the bowl practices, as lots of these players are incredibly young. Some progress can be made during the season (and given the competition, I think there has been some even on the defense), but this team is way too short on talent to compete with the top teams in the B10 this year. Sure, they might be able to upset a squad every once and a while, but as we saw today with Wiscy, experience tends to trump talent. It will be interesting to see how teams like MSU and Wiscy play next year when all of that senior talent and experience disappears - my guess is that they will look far more beatable (like Wiscy in 2008).
"show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser".
While I'm not blaming any individual, i can't believe how apologetic michigan fans have become. sad.
I say realistic.
Does it piss me off when Michigan gives up 37,000 yards in a game? Yes. Do I want to punch GERG in the dong sometimes? Sure. Have I thrown valuable and breakable things at high velocities in abject disgust? You betcha.
But I'm not just a Michigan fan; I'm a football fan. And I can look at two teams and come to a pretty reliable conclusion about who should, in theory win a game. Wisconsin is better this year. That has happened in the past, and will happen at times in the future. State is better than Michigan this year. It has happened in the past (though not recently), and will probably happen at times in the future.
If you want to call my patience with a new system "apologism," feel free. But I think RR gives Michigan the best chance to win next year, and I don't want to screw with that just because "We're Michigan, damnit."
You said this a lot more gracefully and logically than I could have. +1
I wanted a win this week, but didn't expect a win because overall, Wisconsin is a better team.
I did think it was RRs best call yet to go for the onside in the third qtr. No sarcasm, he even had me fooled. Sadly, we didn't get it.
Stop with the f*&(*ing telling us to "be happy" already. This board is starting to remind me of the movie where the army dude gets lost somewhere in space/time, no one has an IQ over 80 and they think everything's great.
I'm all in for David Brandon. Brandon for president!
Idiocracy. Nobody is telling you to be happy losing. I am telling you to be happy we are better than we were last year. Would you be happy if your work raised your pay every year? Even if it wasn't what you expected, I think you would. If you were able to conceive of a world in which not everyone enjoyed that luxury, which is a world that does exist. Even outside of Idiocracy.
I wont bash RR and have to say the offensive is extremely explosive, and next season will be even more explosive which is almost unimaginable, but something must be done with this defense. I thought the commentators made many good points, some being RR recruiting of the defense, but more so were the points of fundamentals. Chris Spielman even tho an OSU alumi made a good point about us needing to get back to Big Ten defense of having the traditional Mich 4-3 def. with big meaty boyz on the front four, something id personally love to see. If we could get back to our tough nose Big Ten defense and the offense that RR can run then the sky is the limit, but RR recruiting these types of guys just doesnt seem to be happening because he likes the smaller faster guys. We'll just have to wait and see how this class turns out
We're not competitive against good teams, bottom line. I'm still on the fence about what to do, but a competitive game next week would help.
you're right on. michigan hasn't beat an end of year top 25 team since September 22, 2007 against penn state.
the insight bowl is not something to be proud of. it's a consolation prize for mediocrity.
makes me feel like i'm cheering for northwestern.
"makes me feel like i'm cheering for northwestern."
Careful, there. Michigan is lucky it did not have to play Northwestern.
4-8 to 5-7 to 8-4 to 10-1. That is a good rebuilding job, for sure -- those are Harbaugh's records at Stanford in four years.
It also looks remarkably similar to our current path. Just sayin'.
Like the reality that RichRod took over a team that went 9-5 in 2007 and also:
1. Lost our top 5 offensive players to the NFL
2. Lost 5 of our top 6 defensive tacklers
3. Has since had 8 guys drafted into the NFL, with only 1 coming before the fourth round and 1 being a punter. On top of that, it looks as though 1, maybe 2 will be drafted this year (and that is being generous). That would 5 guys on offense alone drafted after 07, 10 guys drafted (at most) in the following 4 years.
See, you conveniently left all of that out and only included the records. Why is that? I accept reality just fine.
Manningham-left for money in the NFL
Arrington-Left for money in the NFL
Massey-stayed, less than spectacular player
Schilling-stayed and is captain
Boren (whether he is hated or otherwise, he can still play)-Left because he is lazy and RR did not offer his brother
Jamison-Stayed, average player
Graham-Stayed, All American
Warren-Stayed a year, went for money
Mallet-Did not fit the scheme
Minor-Stayed-good when healthy
Molk-Heart and soul of a good OL
So what is your point here? That RR should have kissed the ass of all those players who left for money? That he should have let Boren slack and then offer his brother? It is pretty clear that those who stayed with RR did very well for the most part. So if anything you may have accidentally proven that this coaching staff is competent.
I agree with that. Carr was a good coach and a good person. He should not be thrown under the bus after everything he did for the university.
I think it simply comes down to the fact that you think RR has had enough time, not shown enough improvement, and should now be gone. I, on the other hand, think he has shown improvement every year (in record and offensive production), he should be given a 4th year (and in my opinion all college coaches should get 5 years to ensure their 1st recruiting class graduates as redshirt seniors), and we should clean house on the defensive side of the ball.
In the end it doesnt matter as we are not the ones making the decisions. Agree to disagree.
yeah, your right Llllloyd left rich a bunch of future all americans
The "Lllloyd" crap is as obnoxious as "DickRod" and the like. Grow up.
to finally having a JR lead the squad at QB. However, RRod was handed a fairly decent D that has regressed every year since he got here. And I know, injuries have decimated this years D, but year 1 to year 2 we got seriously worse and I am not sure that T. Woolf would have been enough to make year 3 better than year 2.
Add to that a special teams unit that can't kick a FG longer than an extra point (3 years running) and I would like to see a new DC (and staff) come in with a GA assigned specifically to teach the kickers how to kick.
Is that an unreasonable request?
What you call excuses I call facts. Every single thing I posted was a fact (although I was guessing as to which seniors will be drafted, but I would like you to point out more than 1 or 2 seniors on this team that will get drafted if you disagree). Here is another fact - we returned 1 starter on offense the year RR took over. But don't worry, those are just the facts, er, excuses, that you fail to mention or even acknowledge. Have fun when RichRod returns next year and all you can do is bitch about how much we are winning by.
Also, we didn't go 9-5 in 07. That will teach me to actually read things you write.
If that happens, RR will not be the coach.
Have anything to back that up? No? Cool.
At least if you share sources and turn out to be right you can say I told you so. By not sharing sources you just sound like you're full of shit.
I'd be glad to put money (or MGoPoints) on RichRod's return. I'm a lot more willing to trust David Brandon than your "resources."
So which part, other than 2 starters returning instead of 1, was I wrong about? Are you suggesting Mallett being drafted in the top 10 and having SEVEN (in all caps so we know you are serious) starters the previous reason changes anything? No. We had 2 returning starters. Some of it RichRod's fault. Some of it not. Basically, what you are saying is, RichRod should have kissed people's ass to get them to stay on the team. I get it. He isn't Lloyd, which I understand angers you, but get over it. He was dealt a shitty hand. I suppose bringing back more than 20 starters next year just means that RichRod wasn't able to recruit well enough before he got here (how many 5th year seniors do we have...I know Wisconsin today was starting 17 4th or 5th year seniors).
And you got me, we would have had 9ish players drafted counting Mallett in the 4 years following Carr. He did a great job recruiting.
Harbaugh has done a great job at Stanford. Stanford is [somewhat] like U-M, but has fewer institutional advantages. Harbaugh would be a good coach for U of M.
Martin in 2007: RR has done a great job at WVU. WVU is [less so] similar to U-M, but has fewer institutional advantages. RR would be a good coach for U-M.
I would quibble with my assertions about how comparable the institutions are (you are probably thinking academics - I would say WVU is easier to get non-academically-oriented football players into, but Stanford has girls and weather). But the main thing Harbaugh (or fire RR) people are missing is that we are not in the post-Carr vacuum anymore. RR supporters are supporting the coach who wants to be here and continue to build on the consistent improvement that has occurred over the last two years.
Who is the best guy to coach this team right now? Rodriguez. When his team demonstrates inexplicable falloff (like if they do worse or no better next year despite having everyone back) I will agree that it is time to move on. But you don't bail on consistent improvement.
Maybe Rich Rod's first call should have been to Mallett instead of Pryor. Oh. Right. Mallett didn't fit Rich Rod's "system". (That would be the "system" that decimates teams that can baredly beat anybody else but is unable to beat teams that have actual overall winning records.)
Illinois and ND. Both bowl-eligible. Both comparable teams based on talent and maturity. ND is also a main rival in my book. But we have to get better! We have to improve! RR has to get this team moving in the right dir....wait. 3-9, 5-7, 7-5. Uh. Um. Yeah!
We all need to give each other an MGoHug.
I agree with the guys talking about how Harbaugh inherited a 1-11 team and improved it, and RR taking over a 9-5 team or whatever.
Look at Dantonio, he didn't have the players to run the spread like he generally used, so what did he do?
HE CHANGED IT
Since you obviously worship Dantonio so much, why don't you change your name to MacombSpartan? Dantonio has had experienced QB's since he started at MSU, and a lot of experience all around. Dantonio really hasn't done much more than have one good year and one year that is shaping up to be very good; the other two years were mediocre.
Also, Dantonio's disciplinary standards are different than those of RR. If Dantonio had gotten rid of all the players who participated in the gang raid last Thanksgiving weekend, as RR would have, his team would probably not have as good a record as Michigan right now, and Michigan would probably have one more win.
Michigan has lost to the teams they were expected to lose to. MSU is the only team to beat them so far that they weren't "supposed" to lose to at the beginning of the season. The rebuilidng is right on schedule. Any playing around and bastardizing of his scheme to get a couple of extra wins the last two years would have slowed down the progress in the long run.
So, anyway, the only reason I can think of to use Dantonio's record as a criticism of RR at this point is to do exactly what the OP requested that you not do in this thread. If you can't be all in, why don't you just change alliegences? Sparty can always use another fan. I hope your wife isn't too attached to her couch.
Dantonio hasn't won a bowl game. His first year getting double-digit wins is this year, his fourth (In a year MSU doesn't have to play OSU or Indiana or any BCS-conference out-of-conference opponent). Maybe RR can have that kind of success in his fourth year.
I agree. Go blue!!!
"It's a game we were supposed to lose..."
Don't you love the way Rich Rod has transformed the vaunted Michigan football program? Used to be there were no games Michigan was "supposed to lose".
Michigan is in the process of rebuilding. Most major programs have gone through this same stage so the original poster was just being realistic about the games we are supposed to win. The vaunted Michigan football program you speak of is going through a rebuilding stage and that is ok. Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Alabama and on and on have all gone through this.
Michigan hired a coach who can take us to the next level but it will take time. Rich is rebuilding the entire team from the ground up. We started mostly sophomores and freshman today, Wisconsin mostly juniors and seniors. That is the reason why the original poster had reasonable expectations. Rich has not lowered the expectations for the long term of Michigan football, he has just been realistic as to what he is working with in the short term.