The EEOC did rule last year that discrimination by employers or potential employers based on gender identity is a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Here is the Commission's ruling - (LINK). Based on some further research, this is not a binding decision on courts.
Players (including Denard) were asked at the combine whether they're straight
This is what we were talking about last time. The conclusion I came to, anyway, is that federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation (though the EEOC tries to argue that it does). Many states and/or cities have laws that do, though.
It isn't against federal law to ask about sexual orientation like it is with ethnicity, pregnancy status, etc. Some states do make it illegal, though Michigan is not one of them. Actually, the "work-around" question they asked about marital status WAS probably a violation of federal law.
I thought that, per federal law, marital status was only off-limits when it came to federal employees (per the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978). I didn't think it applied to everyone (though many states have such a protection), but I'm no employment lawyer.
I think you're right. Worst. Lawyer. Ever.
Stuff like this is why I initially answer almost every question Brady Hoke style. "Well...I'll have to get back to you on that, but there are some issues there."
As the NFL is a federally subsidized organization, thus the recipient of federal big money hustla gravy, might they or the teams be held to that standard?
I ask because in my experience hiring in healthcare, due to our receiving money from CMS we had to avoid asking about marital status, and were subject to other federal regulations. Perhaps just an overly cautious HR department.
coming from someone that works in HR I can say that its not an overly cautious HR department, it's that it's illegal.
Plus, case law largely supports the employer in regards to sexual orientation. State law varies.
In this case, I don't know how any player could prove discrimination simply because they are drafted at a given spot and think they should go higher. How do you show a team should have drafted him at #136 instead of another team at #147?
If the question itself doesn't violate employment law, then the outcome seems inconclusive.
Were they asked whether they were planning on getting pregnant any time soon?
Is it OK to ask how many baby mamas a playa has?
How would you feel if you were playing center and you knew your QB was gay and hits on you?
If he was gay: Okay, dude.
If he hit on me: Ummm, not gay dude. Here, starting quarterback of a major university, let me introduce you to, oh, THE ENTIRE GAY POPULATION OF OUR SCHOOL WHO WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.
If he sexually harassed me while under center: Oh shit did I forget to block that 320 pound defensive tackle who just landed on you? I did, didn't I. Gee, sorry about that.
What are the odds that the starting QB is going to be interested in your 300 pound sweaty offensive lineman ass? Odds are pretty good that he can do better, no matter how funny you are.
Any time I've been asked "aren't you worried they're going to be checking you out?" my answer is always, "no, I don't think I'm THAT cute." I mean, I don't assume every woman I meet is just looking for the chance to see me naked, so why would the guys be that different? I mean, even guys have some standards.*
*alcohol quantity pending
If that issue were to somehow arise, there's an easy solution. Just swing by the Taco Bell drive thru on the way to the game. Even the sexiest person in the world loses appeal if they have gordita farts.
Scott Mitchell sexually harassed Lomas Brown?
they were asked, essentially, whether they were gay or straight during the combine
I've heard several players said that they were gay during the combine, but when the combine ended, they were straight
What horribly inappropriate questions. If I'm running a football team, it wouldn't matter to me if they were gay (or anything else) or not. If you can play football and you are about the team, why should it matter?
(Yes, I did read WolvinLA2's reasoning above.)
Why dumbass? Do you think he would want you? Don't flatter yourself.
to this BS line of questioning was something like the 2:07 mark in this clip:
...during the interview process (and have) to see if candidates can think on their feet...if u like girls is not one of them. It is illegal in the real world to ask that type of question and should be illegal for the NFL...and I imagine that after all of this publicity...there will be some changes to the permissible questions teams can ask of potential draft picks when all is said and done.
And yes...feel free to down vote me b/c I am an attorney...should have gone to Ross instead!
Sexuality is not a protected class...yet. So they can ask or discriminate if they want to deal with the ramifications.
...they can "deal with the ramifications"....which is a lawsuit because as an employer in the real world (not NFL) it is illegal to ask a candidate their sexual preference. I did not raise a constitutional law issue about protected classes, this is an employment law issue. Clearly you are not an employer, or if you are, you just haven't been sued yet.
Sexual orientation is a protected class in your state, California. However, it is not a protected class federally and in many other states and local jurisdictions. So, he may actually be an employer, but in one of those unprotected states. I understand the passion... but, man, get your facts straight before laying down the wood on someone like that!
...basis of sexual orientation in DC and California, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin. Other states also have laws against sexual discrimination in the work place. When you get sued by an individual job candidate you are usually getting sued in State Court unless there are other jurisdictional issues at hand. As an employment attorney in California and now general counsel for a corporation...I wouldn't advise anyone in today's political climate,, unless they like being sued, to ask someone if they are gay when interviewing. And how do u think those laws, especially employment laws, got passed in those states above? ...someone in a state that didn't have a law on sexual orientation discrimination asked a stupid question during an interview and got sued. Thanks, but my facts are straight...which is why I am a successful attorney.
Sexual orientation is not a "protected class" for employment discrimination at the Federal level. It's up to the individual states to add it if they choose to. Many have, so teams in those states are in violation. Teams in the states where it has not been added as a protected class (Michigan is one) are not in violation of Federal or State law asking these questions. It might not be ethically correct, but it's not illegal if their state law hasn't included sexual orientation as a protected class.
All of these posts, and nobody has raised the perfectly legitimate concern that maybe straight men want to have sexual privacy, just like women do, which is why we have opposite sex bathrooms and opposite sex locker rooms. I wonder if everyone here screaming "homophobia! Grrr!" would be perfectly allright getting naked in a locker room with an openly gay man every day. At the very least, it would probably make you feel uncomfortable. And you might be a little resentful of some sanctimonious asshole who forces you to do this because it is politically correct and then labels you a "homophobe" if you object . Maybe it's something you could get used to. Maybe not. But you're not some kind of bigoted homophobe for feeling this way. It's natural, and it's universally accepted with women in their attitudes towards heterosexual men. Which is why, as I said, we have separate facilities for men and women.
Every argument that can be made for integrating locker rooms for sexual orientation can be made for integrating locker rooms for gender. A heterosexual man is just as likely to ogle an attractive woman as a homosexual man is to ogle an attractive man. And by all accounts, professional athletes are some of the most sexually desireable people in the world. A gay man is no more or less able to control who he is attracted to than a straight man. A gay man is no more or less likely to be able to restrain his sexual impulses and act in a professional manner than a straight man.
If I wanted a job that would require me to get naked on a daily basis with the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, you wouldn't label somebody who obejcted to this as a "heterophobe" or a bigot, because it would be fucking stupid. You would side with the Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, because it isn't taboo for women to want sexual privacy from men, no matter what the reason. But it is taboo for men to want sexual privacy from gay men, and I guarantee that I'm not the only person thinking of this right now, but nobody wants to say it, because it's taboo. It's one of things that you can't say anymore.
I'm agnostic when it comes to the concept of integrating institutions like the military and professional sports. I don't love it, but I'm open to it. The sexual privacy issue is one that can be managed, but to manage it, you first have to address it. And to address it, you have to stop being a fucking slave to political correctness and pretend that it is not a legitimate issue.
...gay marriage? I kid...it is hard to discount the way some people feel...particularly NFL players on a close team. However, when I lived in the dorms at Michigan there were gay students that shared the same bathroom, as well as girls, nobody seemed to care. If u belong to a gym and use the locker room, believe me you are sharing the gym with some gay men. Who cares?
Ever been in a Big Ten football locker room? Gay/straight/bi doesn't enter in to it. "Some dudes be CRAZY!" Stuff happens every day that would make most men uncomfortable. I have heard stories of, "naked football" games breaking out in the showers with balls of tape. Hell, "Freshmen Cock Day" was one of our hazing rituals and those aren't even as bad as some of things I've seen or had happen to me. It's always the straight guys who are the perpetrators. I would bet most gay players would do their best to hide from those antics. Any hockey players or big time football players on this board have seen this kind of stuff. Most of the time it's pure bullying/hazing but it looks awfully gay.
...try pledging a fraternity. Ever heard of the elephant walk?
I liked your post as well. And yes, a Yale baseball player told me about his elephant walk.
I used to know some Ukranian hockey players who were hazed by their teammates in the, I believe, OHL? The deal was, they had to strip nude, go to the front of the team bus and tell a joke. All the rookies who didn't get enough laughs had to go in the bus bathroom together, still nude, and put a scattered deck of playing cards in order within a time limit. I kid you not, straight kids thought of and executed this. I wish I was out of sports team hazing stories at this point but Im not. Just by virtue of playing school and summer sports I have seen a lot of stupid shit.
Who would even want to be associated with people like that?
A huge idiot
Would make more sense if we already pretty much know that there are gay players currently in the league.
But your whole point is political correctness--you're basically asking everybody to take dramatic action (e.g. have a separate locker room for the gay guys or ban them from the sport entirely) to protect the justifiable sensitivities of a few.
The most non-P.C. answer to all of this is to tell the straight man who is okay being naked in front of other straight men but not gay men to grow a fucking pair. I managed to make it okay through middle school and high school playing sports every semester without showing my junk to everyone. Put up a screen over a couple stalls in the shower room, face your locker, and be quick about it if it bothers you.
There's no solution that makes everybody happy. The best answer if someone has to make a sacrifice is to screw whoever it's least onerus for. The right to sexual privacy for straight men isn't nothing, but we can all certainly agree it ought to be valued less than anybody's right to be a full participant on an athletic team. The only way you couldn't be able to make that value judgment quickly is if you're of a mind to say "screw the homos" every time, so yeah if someone's out there saying "the gays need to be put in a separate locker room to protect a straight guy's right to shower with just other straight guys" then I think that's strong evidence of either bigotry, homophobia, or rampant selfishness.
Thank you for sharing. I think you raise fair questions but I believe the NFL is past it. I believe that the NFL is already in a don't ask don't tell environment for the most part. Clearly not everyone is onboard as some organization was asking at the combine but I bet MOST organizations see it this way: if we ask, the gay kid will lie. We will never get the truth from just asking, neither will teammates. We would rather draft the best player and hope nobody, especially us, ever knows he's actually gay. Not knowing means it never became an issue. The case study for this in pro sports is the Phillies. The Phillies had an every day starter who was gay. Teammates, "knew" but he never brought any evidence in front of the team and teammates never wanted to have that awkward conversation for fear of "rocking" the metaphorical boat of the pennant race and possibly their own careers. Think about it, if starter, All-Star is gay, and worth millions to the franchise, then you are an idiot if you threaten that. You would have to be really valuable to the organization to raise a fuss and not get yourself traded or cut. So everyone pretended. That player is now retired and I really don't think the media ever knew. To think this hasn't happened (isnt happening) in the NFL is naive. It's not just gay either. Rex Ryan's foot fetish certainly makes conservative Christians very uncomfortable. But he survived being outed and anyone on his team who publicly spoke out against him didn't. I would bet a lot of money that more than a few somebodies in NFL have sexual submissive fetishes that other NFL players would find deeply offensive to their Christian values. They all seem to get along well enough though that we never hear about, except for Rex Ryan.
Yeah, I think the don't ask, don't tell policy works best. If the issue never comes up, it never becomes an issue. And you're right - most of this argument is moot because most kids will lie (unless they're openly gay, which would be such a big deal that the team wouldn't need to ask).
10. Have you ever tried to Wonderlic a metal post when the temperature outside was under 10 degrees Fahrenheit?
9. Would you like to see a tweet that’s longer than 140?
8. Has Bill Belichick ever secretly taped you?
7. Have you been fully inoculated for measles, mumps and kabeer gbajabiamila?
6. Would you have any problem wearing USC Trojans elastic bands?
5. Do you like movies about gladiators?
4. Would you enjoy being sequestered with your school’s cheerleaders?
3. Have you ever been treated for a serious case of houshmandzadeh?
2. Has your sleep ever been interrupted by WikiLeaks?
1. Does this thong make me look fat?
On #3: No, but I've been exposed to laurinitis.
They are not advised/ allowed to ask if potential employees are gay, or not. They are allowwed to ask if they have girlfriends, are married, or like girls. The onus is on the candidate to sue if they find those questions descimainatory.
I'm all for equal opportunity and employment. I'm agaist sexual descrimination and sexual orientation descrimination. But, just for a second, consider the difference in marketabbility, and profitability, between a gay and hetero NFL employee.
If their net value to a corporation is more, or less, should they not be compensated same?
Just as an example: An openly gay superstar could become an icon in San Francisco. Such a person should not be hindered in doing so.
But, an openly gay player in a less tolerant market may be of less value to the parent corporation.
Equal is equal. You cannot have it both ways. The EEOC and it's rules already amply protect those who could be descriminated aginst. And, I have no doubt, ample legal power will be brought to bare to continue to protect gays and transgenders who choose to maintain privacy with regard to their orientation.
Personally, I'm shocked a female kicker has not successfully sued for lack of equal opportunity and access. That's more likely a front burner issue, as many soccer players seek to prolong their career and generate revenue.
No politics means no politics.
This shouldn't even be a discussion if we're honest with ourselves. By letter of the law, this is not a job interview. Therefore, they can ask whatever the hell they want. Period.
If you consider this politics, then you must consider any remotely controversial issue politics. This is about a current event involving sports and a current Michigan student, and doesn't involve any politician or political party. It's really just about whether the questions the NFL is using to evaluate players are legal and/or ethical.
handled well. If things had gone all, "this is why I love/hate Obama" it would have gone away a while ago, but the discussion was very good for the most part. Also, like you say, it involved Denard's combine experience, so it was a little relevant.
Apparently they got away with asking Bryant that question a few years ago...I imagine the "investigation" into the sexuality questions will again be much ado about nothing.