I certainly can see an argument that the freedom to discriminate should be something that is allowable. Just as there should be every freedom to condemn such behavior. But that's a little different than saying in real world practices a team should be able to do it with the current structures and laws.
Players (including Denard) were asked at the combine whether they're straight
NO, there's no way he's condoning this. Don't misconstrue his words just becuase you don't agree with his opinion.
When you make a lot of money?
It's not so much that you lose your rights when you make a lot of money, his argument is more that if you have lots of money you're investing you get more rights (or get to do things that are illegal for everyone else). Have a lot of money? Sure, do whatever the hell you want, after all, you're rich as hell!
He kind of said the reverse: "But I think an hourly worker making little money should have fewer rights on this stuff than a pro athlete." Not sure what's going on here.
Let's see if I got this:
Hourly wages: less rights
Rich guy investing (movie producer/football team owner): more rights
NFL draftee: less rights
BUT...if you become a star and are homophobic we'll cater to your homophobic wishes and not draft gay player. If you're not a star then who cares about you.
Also, it's important to sterotype based on religion/ethnicity when picking doctors and accountants.
Did I get it all?
I think that about covers it.
Here are my corrections. Hourly wage earner (and I just mean normal income earner) - more rights. If I said it the other way, I misspoke (or mistyped).
As far as catering to a star, I don't think that's right, I just think that's the way it is. Stars get catered to. Owners make decisions based on those stars, sometimes when it's not the right thing to do. This happens, and if the owners want it that way, I think they should be allowed to do it.
And I never said it's important to stereotype. I never said all Jewish doctors or acocuntants are better at their jobs. There are no laws on how I can choose my physician. I can pick a hot blonde if I want to. I chose to pick a Jew because it makes me feel more comfortable and that's what I'm used to and there's nothing wrong with that.
Here's what I'm going off of:
1) "But I think an hourly worker making little money should have fewer rights on this stuff than a pro athlete." This may be a mistype on your part or misunderstanding on my part. The way I took it was hourly workers should have fewer rights than pro athletes, exactly as it's typed.
2) Catering to stars is fine, as long as it's not done at the expense of someone else based on race/ethnicity/sexual orientation etc.
3) "I purposely picked a Jewish primary care physician and accountant. They're typically good at those professions." If that's not stereotyping based on religion/ethnicity I'm not really sure what is...picking based on what you feel comfortable with I have no problem with. Picking because they're "typically good at those professions" is not something I can agree with and I assume (at least hope) you understand why.
Yeah, I typed that first part backwards, and someone replied so I can't change it. Now I understand why people got upset. That was meant to say that an hourly worker should have more rights on this stuff than a pro athlete.
That's because typical workers are much more replaceable than an athlete. If one team passes on an athlete, other teams will take him. If a regular person gets passed over for a job because of a question like this, they might not be able to find another one.
The NFL is only 25 years behind the times regarding the acceptability of these types of questions during a job interview.
Like Marcus Ray said on WTKA the other day, "There will be a blind, one-handed monkey playing QB for msu and will QB them to a national championship before gays are accepted in the NFL".
Multiple members of the Ravens, for example, have said that there would be no problem with a gay player on their team.
If a homophobic player was asked that in an interview you'd better believe they'd say that they would have no problem with it. It wouldn't be worth the risk of bad publicity to say what they actually believe. They've gotta think of the fans and endorsement deals.
Chris Culliver of the 49ers said he wouldn't want a gay teammate.
People getting jumped on for being anti-gay is the reason many of those who are don't speak about it publicly. They are entitled to their belief, but people just blow up and freak out if they don't agree with it.
I don't doubt that a great many NFL players would either prefer not to have a gay teammate or would be downright hostile to the idea. I think the tide is turning, though, because we're starting to see players preemptively say that they'd be okay with it - and I bet there are a number of players who don't say that they'd be okay with it because they, too, fear a backlash of some sort or because they just aren't the speaking-out type.
People may have a right to have bigoted viewpoints, but they don't have a right to have those opinions respected. We don't have to respect everyone's ideas, we just have to acknowledge them, at which point we have the moral obligation to call out bigots for being small-minded ass holes.
I agree with you 100% that bigots are small minded assholes. That said, what if your star player who makes 15 mil a year is a small minded homophobe (but one that everyone likes because, let's face it, that probably isn't a big issue on most teams) and the player in question is a 3rd or 4th rounder.
What is stronger - the owner's moral obligation to call out his bigot, or his obligation to run his team? Ideally, most would probably say the former, but in reality I highly doubt that's more important than the latter. As much as I would love for every business move to also be the "right" move, it's not.
I don't care how strong the owner's desire is. He still cannot ask because it is ILLEGAL!!!
Well, it was my understanding that it is not illegal, but the discussion was about whether or not it should be illegal, not whether or not it is.
Asking "are you married? (which Denard says they did)" is illegal. Asking "are you gay?" is a bit more gray, but no Fortune 100 company would risk asking it.
OK, I was referring to the question in the title about "are you straight." So yes, asking if someone is married it illegal.
However, my stance doesn't change on that. I think that should be a fair question. So is asking about kids. I changed a lot as an employee when I got married and had kids, in positive and negative ways, and I think it's fair for an employer to know that stuff. It has as much to do with me as an employee as some of the things on my resume.
So my stance on this has little to do with sexuality specifically, but more about how morality and business co-exist, and I'm OK with there being less of it. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but from a business perspective, I want to do what generates the most money, and that's by hiring the best people and you do that by knowing as much about them as possible.
Should businesses be subject to regulations that require them to adhere to moral codes rather than pursue maximum profits. Currently, they do.
I think the question is more how far those regulations should go, not just should there or should there be any at all. I agree with some of said regulations, and disagree with others. The question is where the line should be drawn.
And while some immoral business behavior might be in the interest of maximizing profit, some of it probably has more to do with the people running the business not having very good morales
Then I guess those who have these bigoted viewpoints don't have to respect the opinions of those not respecting theirs?
It's been highly documented Fielding Yost was what people deem racist and a bigot noawdays. Does that make him a bad person and an asshole? No, I don't think so. He was raised that way.
He didn't like Catholics, and I'm Catholic. Can't hold it against him because he was raised that way. Just like some people were raised to reject gays. Doesn't make them bad people or assholes.
People aren't good or bad. The part of Yost that was racist was bad. When he acted to prevent Michigan from recruiting black players, or when he scheduled teams against whom we'd have to sit that player, he was being a bad person. And an asshole to use your language.
Does that mean everything about him was a bad person or an asshole? No, but in fairness, it means a lot.
Yost was a great coach, and I'm glad he won many national titles for Michigan, but I absolutely hold it against the man that he was racist. Of course I disrespect him for being anti-Catholic. I don't care who his dad was or how he was raised: he judged another person for the stupidest and most biggoted of reasons, and I hold that against him.
It seems bigotry is in the eye of the beholder.
People just need to let things go. If anyone should think he was bad for that, it should be me, a Catholic. I mean, unless he killed someone in the name of his views, then that's a different story.
But it was a different time back then and I understand that.
Dude, don't you even start. Remember when you posted these tweets???
Yep. I do. I'll own up to it. And I've learned since then not to post things like that on the internet. The hard way.
Nearly lost my job over that stunt.
You learned the wrong lesson.
Exactly. This is the epitome of the "I'm sorry I got caught, I'm not sorry for what I did" thought process.
If you don't like what I tweet, don't follow me. Simple as that.
Don't get mad when people call you out on it.
Do what you need to do. Proofs right there I said it. Fret over something someone you don't know said over the internet.
Whose getting mad? I'm flattered I matter enough for someone to screenshot tweets from November which were taken down shortly after and pulled it out several months later. On a site that is unrelated to twitter, and before I linked my twitter account in my sig..
The best part is, the guy (bdsisme) probably checks my twitter every day. I have a fan club.
I'd be against people saying and retweeting slurs wishing death on other.
And I'd hope people feel sorry for it rather than sorry they got in trouble for saying it. Maybe if you had lost your job you'd have gotten the point, but I doubt it. I don't wish you had, but even if I did, at least I don't want you dead for what you think. Disagreement is fine; hate never is.
Unless it's a Buckeye.
WD-there's some irony in using Harry Newman, a player who faced all sorts of hell in his playing days for being a minority, as your avatar.
Newman was dogged his entire pro career by people saying he was greedy to have such a high salary, or to have a liquor business in Detroit while playing for the Giants. There was a priest on the radio (that era's version of Valenti if Valenti was literally a Nazi sympathiser) who was always accusing Newman (as well as Benny Friedman and Hank Greenberg) of destroying morale in his locker room and forcing his religion down everyone's throats.
Lycanthropes, that is. "Dogged" indeed.
...could u explain history of that for those that may not know? Thx!
No context needed. See the hate?
For saying that having an openly gay teamate would be difficult and uncomfortable for him. Didn't say anything other than that.
Pretty sure any player either will lie or avoid mentioning the issue. It shouldn't matter
20 years ago, the idea that gay marriage would be legal in some places was considered impossible, even within the gay community. Even sociologists are incredibly bad at predicting future trends; I wouldn't put much stock in Ray's prediction.
LZ Granderson wrote once (c. 2004 or some such) that he personally knows of several gay athletes then on pro rosters, but that none of them wished to be remembered as the queer Jackie Robinson--that they much preferred to have their achievements recognized on their own merit.
As much as everyone is thankful to Robinson today, it sucked to be Jackie. Sports aren't just a random sampling of Americans--there's a lot of bigotry mixed in with religion and a locker room atmosphere that's more misogynistic than an SEC fraternity. The first guy to be out is going to have a hellish time.
It shouldn't matter, but it probably does anyway: it needs to be a player on the upper echelon of the sport, who will play or has played a long time. So many NFL players are in and out of the NFL so quickly, and generate such strong negative passions, that, say, a USC quarterback coming out would just attach that to the rest of the baggage such players carry. If he can't stand as flag-bearer on his athletic abilities, my fear is he'll only end up a polarizing figure for those of us who've made up our minds already.
My guess is that acceptance will start with FORMER players coming out. The "gays can't play" argument would be blunted if a few accomplished former players said, "yeah, won rushing titles/Super Bowls/MVPs, and I was SOOOO gay the whole time." Jackie didn't have that option, because he couldn't very hide his race.
If I were a gay pro athlete, I think I would come out.
Sure, I understand that pro sports carry a culture of masculinity, and that many pro athletes are homophobes. But would it really be that much worse to hear your teammates talk about how gay people "gotta get up out of here" (Chris Culliver's comment) and sit and suffer silently than to let them know that you are gay and show them how you're really no different? There would certainly be tough parts, but there are tough parts to being a gay athlete anyway. For instance, read some of the stuff John Amaechi has written about being a closeted gay NBA player.
On the other side, I think it would be an amazing opportunity, in two ways. First of all, you could make amazing progress for gay rights and social justice. People like Culliver, both inside the locker rooms and in the stands, would see that the reality of having a gay person around doesn't match up with their fears. And second of all, you would get incredible endorsement deals. Besides the obvious gay-friendly products, I would bet dollars to donuts that Nike, Pepsi, and a bunch of other companies would be clambering over each other to sign you as an example of a groundbreaker, leader, individual, or whatever their current campaign is. Even a mediocre player would make millions.
I realize this is an incredibly personal decision, and these factors would apply differently to every individual. But that's just what I think.
Orienatation aren't illegal under federal law, right? However, some states have passed laws against such questions, correct?
You're right but when the organization itself has decided something is illegit then it is okay.
It's exactly like a lot of steroids and PEDs which aren't illegal by state/federal law based on their legit uses but many of the pro sports leagues ban them for obvious reasons.