Pistons to acquire Brandon Jennings
Multiple outlets reporting sign-and-trade with the Bucks for Jennings, with his contract being 3 yrs $24 million. No word on what the Pistons are giving up. I'm not a fan of this move.EDIT: sending Knight, Middleton, and Kratsov. link:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--pistons-to-acquire-brandon-jennings-in-sign-and-trade-deal-211830240.html
Absolutely agree.
I get it - you wanted Joe Dumars to draft Trey Burke. He didn't, and now my gawd he's finding an option in FA. Joe Dumars and Trey Burke can both be good at their jobs independently of each other, which is a fact that some posters continue to deny.
This is a good move. The fact that some of you are so against is ridiculous. I can see being meh about it, but in no way is this a bad move. You ask him to cut some of the shots, look for him to provide 15 and 7 a game, and you're starting to build something.
If only. I like the move but all it really does is assure the path to the 6th seed in 2014. It's a short-term upgrade, but an even swap in terms of value since Jennings is two years older and more expensive. While still only 23, it does not appear likely he'll develop into much better than a league-average NBA starter. Knight may not ever be that, but even if only as a 3rd guard he still has potential due to his defense and shooting. I'd argue that Knight is more likely to be on a title-winning team than Jennings.
Knight wasn't a great for the Pistons and I doubt they regret trading him, but the problems are still the problems. Short-term, there is a glut of PGs and the fit with Smith remains awkward. The Pistons hopes as a franchise lie almost entirely with Andre Drummond developing into an elite center. If that's what he is - putting talent around him won't be too hard. Hopefully they can spin Monroe or Smith into some sort of younger wing shooter.
But in all honesty, there isn't a good way to get to that besides tanking, which I really don't want the Pistons to do. Some teams can build through free agency, but the top players aren't coming to Detroit over other cities. In this age of the NBA, I think the Pistons are either stuck being competitive enough to make the playoffs or they have to strike magic in a bottle like they did in the 2000s. They can at least try to be competitive while trying to strike magic again rather than tanking and hoping for magic to come that way. I'd honestly prefer they just be at least competitive rather than tanking or just not being good.
You don't have to be a 15 win team to add young talent. You can build from a young core without tanking. Keep accumulating assets and let your guys grow. Flip your chips (incl cap space) for more assets, and find other young players to surround and grow with your core player(s). Don't paint yourself into any corner with bad contracts. The Ben Gordon situation was the worst case scenario - not only did we overpay but we gave up a 1st round pick to get out of it instead of being patient.
Giving your young players playoff experience is a valuable step. It has to happen at some point. But with the way the east is laying out, it was probably going to happen with or without Jennings & Smith. There are 5 teams who fancy themselves contenders (MIA, IND, CHI, NYK, BRK) and 6 who are rebuilding/tanking (PHI, ORL, CHR, TOR, MLW, BOS). For the remaining 4 teams (DET, CLE, ATL, WAS) there are 3 playoff spots. Now, even if you assume one of my rebuild-teams makes the playoff you still have 2 spots. Is a Pistons team that adds KCP, Billups, and some other young asset from free agency going to be better than Washington and Atlanta - I think so.
Personally, I don't mind tanking, but I understand the argument against it and the risk of becoming a perpetual loser. What I don't understand is making long-term sacrifices for short-term gain when your upside is the 6 seed and your downside is the 9 seed.
On the bright-side; Jennings contract is reasonable and Smith's doesn't seem like the obvious overpay that Gordon/Villanueva were. Nothing here is a disaster and these guys will probably be able to be flipped at some point. But opportunities to move toward title contention are being missed and the danger of Monroe contract extension looms. Hopefully there are more moves forthcoming.
We've been over this before. Tanking is not a more effective road to building a successful team than what the Pistons have been doing, and it also cheats your fans by purposely putting an inferior product on the floor for a couple of years on the off chance you land a LeBron type of player, and even then landing LeBron netted Cleveland exactly 0 championships.
would unquestionably be better than what the Pistons have been doing (signing bad free agents and then trading draft picks to shed those bad contracts to sign more free agents.)
The Cavs tanked after Lebron and are probably ahead of the Pistons already with Irving-Bennett-Bynum etc.
The Cavs are not ahead of the Pistons is any area other than the dreams of sports writers chomping at the bit to declare Kyrie Irving the next big thing. As great as he is, he showed no real improvement from year 1 to year 2 (look it up), and he still doesn't play any defense. He also needs to prove he can go through a full season with missing a large chunk due to injury.
Speaking of injuries, they are an injury plagued team whose two biggest moves were bringing in a guy with a bum knee that has been described as rapidly detiorating, and a huge reach with the number one pick for a guy with no real position coming off shoulder surgery.
As completely lost and dysfunctional as the Pistons have been the last 2 seasons, they have had a better record than the Cavs, and they had a better off-season as well.
If you can show me evidence where tanking has produced championships at a level that was more effective than building a team through the draft, trades and free agency, I'd love to see it.
Besides, the Pistons already have a talent like Drummond, who in hindsight is the sort of guy teams tank for. Monroe is a borderline level all star talent, and so is JSmoove.
As Andrew Sharp pointed out in a Grantland article today, if it were Daryl Morey making these moves, people would be applauding and marveling at his ability to stockpile assets at a fair market price to build toward the future, but since it's Joe Dumars the narrative is "LOL Pistons."
the Pacers. Long and athletic team who will try to live off on defense. Hope they get lucky in the draft (Happened with Moose and Drummond) and find the right player to trade/sign.
Jennings is terrible at defense and Monroe isn't good either. 2 of their 3 young core players are not good at defense.
Huh? Not sure why everyone hates this deal so much. Move away from the "why not just draft Burke" mentality (they didn't, so that has no impact on this deal) and consider the fact that he was in the top 20 last season in points, steals and assists. He's what the Pistons need--a somewhat-proven starting Point Guard. He may shoot too much, and isn't Rondo or D. Rose, but those guys don't fall out of the sky. They gave up a player (Knight) at a position where they had the most depth (guard) and got an actual PG, where they had really nobody unless you count Chauncey who doesn't have much left I'm sure. They also gave up Kravtsov and Middleton if you want to count that, but they're non-contributors. I'm not saying let's prep for a banner raising, but I think this is an excellent deal for the Pistons at a relatively low cost for the type of player they are getting.
Because Rondo would have cost them way more than Knight.
Probably would have cost them Monroe.
For a blog that has a ton of advanced analytics stuff, albeit mostly regarding football, I'm shocked to see a mixed reaction here.
Jennings is a bad player right now. He doesn't help you win games:
If you're going the advanced metrics, he was an above average player (above 16 PER). Knight meanwhile had around a 12 PER which is far from average. Also, he provides an ACTUAL POINT GUARD. Knight was not a point guard and we had no one else to fill that role. Now we have him as a starter, KCP at shooting guard and some backups like Billups for leadership
PER is heavily influenced by usage. Practically anyone who dominates the ball at the rate Jennings does can put up an above average PER. Go look at Antoine Walker's career PERs, and yet practically no one from the advanced analytics crowd will come by and say "there's a guy who helped a team win." On the flip side, RAPM doesn't seem to think too fondly of Jennings, and his TS% of 51% is awful for a guy who shoots that much.
There's some hope for him if he ever figures out the difference between a good and a bad shot, because he does do a solid job of not turning the ball over and distributing. But when he puts up a jumper, which he does really, realy often, it's bad news.
In the right situation, I think Jennings is capable of being useful. But I can't think of a situation worse for him than Detroit, where he's going to be depended on to space the floor (since no one else on the team can shoot) and create far more offense than he should be relied on for.
EDIT: That isn't to say Knight's any better of a player by the way. I don't think he ends up any more than a 7th man at best to be honest, but that doesn't change that comitting to Jennings as the PG of this team is a mistake, compounded further by trying to turn Josh Smith into a SF.
Jennings helps the team make the playoffs this season. It's not clear if Joe Dumars' goals extend beyond that.
It's not a bad deal because the salary is fair and the cost is low, but yeah - Jennings isn't a great player and hasn't improved a great deal since entering the NBA. Yet, at 23, there's some Billups potential here for him to grow.
The situation in Detroit isn't that bad for him. Yes spacing is a (huge) problem, but Smith-Monroe-Drummond provide a talented frontline that should help him in passing and cover up his defensive problems. By no mean is it ideal but if you swap Monroe for a young SF who can 3&D, suddenly Jennings is in an ideal spot to grow.
The talent is there and the mistakes (e.g., shot selection) are fixable.
Of course, much of the same argument can be made for Knight who is even younger.
Jennings, Stuckey, Billups, Bynum, Siva
That's too many.
He may not be able to play it anymore, but he probably can't play SG either.
Stuckey is a combo guard and is worthless without the ball in his hands. People can write him off as an expiring contract, but expiring contracts have value in the NBA and he's not a bad bench player in the right situation. The Pistons would be wise to maximize value for him in a trade. Playing him at SG won't help.
Siva was drafted. Cutting him would be a waste when the Pistons could have gone for a draft and stash instead.
Bynum was signed to a 2 year FA contract for almost $3M per. Clearly, the Pistons intend to play him too.
Jennings and Bynum may be the only "pure" PGs of consequence, but the point is that there are too many people who need the ball in their hands on this roster and not enough who can pass, shoot, and defend to support Smith, Monroe, and Drummond.
Double post...first one!
He also played for the Bucks.
Nuff said.
but I'm not blown away by his stats. Poor shooter, doesn't get to the line. Not saying that this won't work or that he is a bad player, just my shallow observations.
I've watched him play regularly and I dont understand not liking this move. Jennings is an upgrade over Knight, we lose almost nothing, and he was looking for $48-50m yet we signed him for $24m. When he's hot he goes off for 50+, his most important stats have all improved since he came into the league, except last year where he averaged under 2 points less, but one assist more than the year before. His style will fit our roster because our bigs should easily be able to offset his shooting inefficiency, plus he averages over 6 assists and shoots .375 from 3. Last year he and Monta Ellis even led the friggin Milwaukee Bucks to the playoffs!
I think this roster is certainly playoff-worthy at this point. I'm not sure they can make it to the 2nd round, but it's not like there's a player out there they could realistically grab that would get them to that level. The only downside to being a playoff team is that they would have to then deliver the pick in next year's draft to the Bobcats....err...Hornets (part 3?). That is the supposed deepest draft ever. But we also don't know who for sure will declare for that draft. I suppose it's better to build a playoff roster instead banking on a bunch of unkown future possibilities.
I don't get it. I'm not upset. I just think 22 year old Knight could have been better than 24 year old Jennings in two seasons. I've been paying close attention to the NBA since 1999 and I've seen more players have the game slown down for them (Knight's problem) than I have seen players improve their shooting from sub-40% to respectability (Jennings' problem).
Joe must really be pushing to make the playoffs *now* and to secure his job.
Jennings is an upgrade over Knight, but, they are essentially the same player.
Jennings: An undersized, volume-shooting PG who plays no D and routinely ignores his teammates.
Knight: An undersized, volume-missing PG who tries on D but is not skilled enough to set up his teammates.
Trey Burke, on the other hand, is a true PG who shoots and passes. At worst, Trey compares to Jameer Nelson, who took the Orlando Magic to the finals once. At best, Trey is the black John Stockton.
Someone needs to remind Joe D that he is trying to build a winner, not the Globetrotters.
This won't go over well here, but given the summer league performance the comparison to Nelson as a worst case scenario is totally out the window. His worst case is total bust non-NBA player. His best case is still not Chris Paul but maybe a rich man's Jameer Nelson is still in range.
I don't know of any examples of PGs (or players that matter) that look so bad in Summer League developing into NBA all-stars.
Trey was horrible this summer league, but it was only because his shot was off. He had nice assist numbers and wasnt too turnover prone which are 2 of his biggest strengths. Summer league is all about athleticism since theres no real structured offensive system and most of the guys are fighting for 1-2 roster spots trying to get their own shine. Anyone can have a stretch of bad shooting games. However, if Trey continues those struggles in the regular season, he can find himself having a Chauncey Billups-esque rookie season where the Utah Jazz give up on him rather quickly.
Jennings and Knight are not the same player at all. It's not even clear that Knight is a PG in this league. And Jennings is not undersized. He's 6'1" which is close to the average size for PG in the NBA
I remember when I was a Pistons fan...you know, pre-2013 NBA Draft. Stay strong, brothers.
FANTASTIC MOVE - though it isn't a game changer, it clearly moves us forward. Jennings biggest downside is that he demands so many shots. We'll see if that can be somewhat changed in Detroit. Regardless, we give up Knight, and that is basically it. Knight hasn't shown nearly the potential as Jennings. Plus, you know, Jennings is a true, acutal PG. Put Cheeks and Billups around Jennings and smart money is on Jennings getting better than his already 17 pts, 7 AST per game.
Detroit is becoming interesting, for sure.
give Jennings the edge in court vision and passing ability, that alone makes him an upgrade. I never saw Knight being anything more than a good scorer / energy player. Pistons are moving in the right direction IMO.
He's just happy not to have to deal with Jennings anymore. I can't say I've watched him play much, but from what I can gather he does very little to make the players around him better.
Larry Hughes led the NBA in steals at 2.9 a game in one of his contract seasons and conned his way into a first team All-NBA Defensive spot.
He was never known as a great defender beforehand and never again afterword.
For whatever reason, people acknowledge it's a problem when you have an overeager big man that tries to block every shot and falls for pump fakes and up and unders and drop off passes, yet they they are impressed by the passing lane gambler who messes up his teammates' defensive rotations and gives up driving lanes.
Steals aren't everything.