I agree. You know who has looked better this season? Omameh and Barnum, the two "additions by subtraction." They clearly weren't the problem.
Tennessee is not recruiting well just because they got 18 dudes
I agree. You know who has looked better this season? Omameh and Barnum, the two "additions by subtraction." They clearly weren't the problem.
They were poor. Their replacements have been worse. That doesn't mean they weren't the problem last year.
Omameh was signed to Tampa Bay's active roster. Taken from the 49ers' practice squad. Already on the depth list (back-up to starting guard).
(I approve of naming players when there's something nice to say. Lessons from Mom.)
And Tebow didn't pan out in the NFL. So does that mean he wasn't a great player in college?
Yeah, as a general rule, don't call out individual players. You can question certain plays or note poor performance (Brian does it in the UFR, but with data to back those assertions up), but there are too many people who simply call out player X as sucking, which is both counter-productive and pretty insensitive considering you are yelling at college kids for not being "good enough" by people who, with few exceptions, couldn't even dream of lacing up the cleats to play for a DIII program, to say nothing of UM.
What if we call them out by number? Is that kosher?
judge him for putting on blush before games.
Pitch the cottam' ball Tyler Ecker!!!
OL, OC and S&C coaching critical assessment, on the other hand, is fair.
Bum Phillips said, “I always thought I could coach. I just thought people were poor judges of good coaches."
Same goes for our players.
He also said, "There are two kinds of coaches. Those that just got fired and those that are going to be fired."
Dude, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about doing this. Saying they wear maize and blue and work hard doesn't mean we can't critically assess their performances. It seems to me this is the very reason for existence of this blog, and this isn't little league where everyone gets a trophy at the end.
That said, there's a right and wrong way to go about this. All of the 'hurr durr Miller blows wtf is wrong with him' is ignorant and contributes nothing. Saying things like, Miller seems undersized/outclassed by larger NTs and unable to combo well, should be welcome (not saying that's the case, it's just an example). If these guys aren't open to criticism we may as well shut MGoBlog down now and go home.
Understand what you're saying, but there seems to be a prevalant attitude on the blog that the interior line is struggling (true) and the reason is coaching or the players not playing up to expectations (not true).
The clear reason is a lack of experience. It was mentioned elswhere that five of the seven five-star offensive linemen in their second year aren't playing. But we're all over Kalis for being pushed into service and busting his ass when he probably shouldn't be out there. Just one example.
Well... that's exactly where the discussion comes in. I might say, Miller isn't doing certain things well. And you might say, the line is too young to criticize. And I might say, Miller is in his 3rd year. It's time to put up now. And you might say, well, I don't know what. I might also point out that if I recall correctly, Lewan and Molk both played pretty well in or around their 2nd year in the program, thus invalidating your argument to a certain degree. But that's why this blog exists. If you make a statement you should make it respectfully and be prepared to substantiate it.
My concern would be that fans are feeling entitled to an offensive line made up entirely of five Lewan/Molks. It's unrealistic and thus unfair to the players.
A line of upperclass versions of Courtney Morgan, Dave Petruziello, Dave Pearson, Kurt Anderson, Rueben Riley would be much better than what we've had.
Note: guys picked at semi-random as 1 year starters who never made the NFL. Basically, good but not great players who were parts of some good lines during the 00s.
Added note: the LT is 6'3", the interior features two converted DL and a wqlk-on, and the RT was a better guard. This is not a Lewan-Molk line. I am also sure it would be better than ours.
it is NOT clear why the o-line is struggling and not everyone agrees with you. There are myriad reasons why like blocking scheme, poor coaching, no player development, just to name a few.
Why can't we get an upgrade that won't allow a repost for several seconds?
Well stated. If you can't call things like they are, then close the board. Being petty and demeaning toward players who make mistakes is another matter altogether.
In a couple of years, most athletes will be doing something other than playing sports for a university. If they are put off by honest criticism, life is going to be tough. I also suspect that most coaching staffs spew some tough love toward their minions.
I get your point, but it seems to me that the key is that when you are being criticized by your coach you are being criticized by an expert.
Imagine if in your job you were being criticized by anonymous yahoos on a blog. I think if you took exception to that criticism it wouldn't mean you can't take criticism.
sports at this level exists because of an audience of active spectators. otoh, no one has ever cared enough about your profession to keep it alive through discretionary income and free time. I mean really.
It wasn't an analogy. It was in response to the previous poster's comment about players needing to take criticism because they will eventually have jobs where they will be criticized. I was pointing out a difference that seemed relevant to me.
Personal attacks on players and coaches is not ok but there's nothing wrong with critiquing performance. Kalis is struggling right now does not equal I don't root for nor support Kyle Kalis.
The complete right side is struggling. From tackle to center.
CHRIS BRYANT IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY
friendly and hardworking.
Criticism of player performance re: blocking/tackling with a specific analysis of their performance is very different from being a donkey and making statements "[insert player name] has regressed!"
Once again, Brian Cook, renew the Neg. and a whole lot of this MLive BS leaves the board.
Maybe we should all protest like Grambling. Just leave the site for a week. Money talks!
"I got all you Michigan obsessives in the palm of my hand...hahahahahaha!"
I'd be shaky by the Wednesday.
Funk, Borges, and Wellman are not the tastiest biscuits in the biscuit barrel?
Well I'll say it.
Tacopants is a freaking joke, completely worthless as a human being, and should have his scholarship pulled. I've never once seen a pass to him result in us gaining yards. That whole perpetual eligibility thing really eats up our recruiting class sizes.
look like child molesters.
Was that said about one of our coaches?
Mr Rager said that about Funk after the PSU game.
And he's deservedly gone. So what's the point of bringing it up?
"The appearance or implication that our coaches could be child molesters could impact recruiting."
Saying a certain player did not execute his assignment is not calling out a player. It adds to the complexity of the game and it is how football should be watched. Stating player "x" sucks is idiotic, childish, and reveals to everyone else here that you likely don't know a damn thing about the sport.
analysis critiquing: good
Expletive, absent minded critiquing: bad
You might want to change the title of the post to "personal attacks" rather than "personal criticism". I've tried to keep my criticism to the vague "the line", but when we're talking about a play that is destroyed by Kalis (for example) not blocking, we have to mention his name. And we should.
I think this is different than saying, "Kalis sucks". FWIW, I think the same is to be expected when criticizing coaches. "Hoke is responsible for the overall performance of the team and his clock management cost us in this game, therefore I think he should be fired" is legitimate criticism. "Fire Hoke" is not.
And I don't think anyone here doesn't respect or want our players to perform, which is different than a lot of the Mlive "Get rid of Denard" people out there.
If we're going to praise certain players by name we should also be critical of certain players by name. It's not like we're giving up on them by saying that they did something really bad in a game or had a bad game. That is when I think this board goes too far. "Player X is terrible I never want to see him play in a game again" etc.
_______ was really bad last game
_______ missed a lot of blocks
_______ was getting pushed 5 yards into the backfield
etc, are all fair game IMO. I mean, Brian's UFRs are pretty much all about identifying issues and grading out players.
On the other hand, ________ sucks, isn't acceptable. Neither is questioning effort or "heart."
I agree with this. I think it's perfectly acceptable to be critical of players if you explain WHY you are being critical specific to their play. Saying "Kalis is having a tough day and getting pushed back" is ok but remember, they're kids so try and go easy. Saying Kalis sucks well.....sucks and should not be tolerated by the Mods (seeing as Brian wont let us police ourselves anymore).
Coaches are in whole different category IMO though. While it's not OK to say "Borges is fat and he sucks" I think saying "calling repeated stretch plays into 8-9 man fronts without giving Devin an audible to check out of is killing us THEREFORE he sucks" seems ok by me.
One man's opinion.
Is it the guy himself that "sucks" or his job performance?
People might re-listen to "the team, the team, the team"; there is some wisdom in it.
Less concerned with the board reaction and more concerned with what happens in the stands. If we struggle running the ball and the cloud starts to boo, that looks really bad. For those of you lucky enough to be in the stands, keep in mind what message that sends. You may be booing the coaches, but it will feel like you are booing the players. Plus it looks horrible to recruits - would you want to go play somewhere and get booed by your own fans?
Yes, absolutely this. Think about how embarrassing it looks when you've seen other teams' fans booing.
when fans have spent big bucks for tickets for a game and the performance on the field is poor fans have every right to boo. Like it or not, when big money is involved, fans have every right to expect decent output on the field.
You are right. So is the other guy.
You can boo. It might hurt the team. You have to decide if any potential harm is worth whatever benefits there are to booing.
Just because you have a right to so something doesn't mean you should. It does absolutely no good whatsoever, as if the coaches and players will start trying harder because you let them know you're not happy with their performance. It's totally conterproductive to morale, and looks absolutely terrible to visiting recruits.
it is the fans way of letting the team know their performance is poor. Where is your evidence that booing has an impact on recruits?? I do not think they really care.
I'm sorry, but that's fucking assinine. Do you really think they need you to tell them they're doing poorly? I bet you're the type of person that yells at kids at little league games.
fans boo at almost every type of game and for almost every sport. Should I not boo at a Tigers game? Should I not boo the refs when they make a mistake for fear of hurting their precious feelings? Should I put my kid inside a bubble to shield him of everything?
College athletics that rely on gameday atmosphere to attract recruites =/= Pro athletes who will play in Jacksonville for the right price
The team would never know their performance is poor without you there to tell them. It's not like they keep score or anything.
is a way for fans to communicate real time displeasure of something specific. If the staff runs the same failed play the fans can boo so they can connect the displeasure with a specific thing - in this case a play. Same goes for players. It is not safe to assume that they know they are doing poorly. Coaches can be ignorant and stubborn to a fault.
But it makes him feel so good.
What's more important?
You have the right to boo. I also have the right to hope you get hit by a semi on your way home from the game. That doesn't make either of them right.
Here's to getting hit by a semi. Maybe we should give a trophy to everyone and tell them that they should all be in the NFL one day.
Serious question to OMG Shirtless. Exactly what do you think upset fans SHOULD do then if not boo? Is it not permissable to show coaches whose boss requests I pay upwards of $150/game (inclusive of PSLs) for the priviledge of watching the game) that I think their game plan and play calling are costing those very players we care about a chance to win?
I'm not booing. Hell, I wussed out and came home so I'm not even going to be there. But I do question philosophically the idea that it's ok to charge a LOT to watch a game but it's not ok to express displeasure with the product.
I just refuse to boo college athletes.
So you won't boo adults who play a sport?
I won't boo anyone who is not considered a professional athlete. If this puts me in the minority, so be it.
Back in the day when they were just representing their country and not getting endorsement deals, wouldn't it be in poor taste to boo an Olympic athlete?
Heck, even at a pro game, I don't see much point in booing the players. It really doesn't do anything. Refs, sure, because it shows that they were caught in a mistake and it's been shown a big part of home field is refs and even subconscious intimidation. Maybe also the other team playfully, or if somebody is being a showboating jackass or running up the score or being unsportsmanlike. But otherwise you're not doing anything but making yourself feel better.
But that's the point. I do too but it's not the players I'd be booing (if I was booing). It would be the COACHES....are they also immune from being boo'd?
True story - years ago Michigan was playing somebody and playing badly. With about 2 minutes to go and down more than a touchdown whoever Lloyd's OC was at the time called a QB Waggle and hit the TE for about a four yard gain on a 4th and 16. I went nuts (as did the rest of the stadium it seemed) and started booing. Not the players...the IDIOT coaches who called such a stupid play.
On the drive home Lloyd was on the radio going off on the fans for booing the players. I wanted to scream through my radio "it's not them...it was YOU everyone was booing".
How do you let highly paid coaches know they are killing those very players we both agree shouldnt be boo'd?
We have completely different views on sports and that's completely fine. You're emotionally and financially invested. It's just a game to me. I used to let losses bother me. I'd spend the afternoon/night yelling at the clouds. Now I'm just here for the cat pictures.
I feel pretty safe saying that Mr. Analytics Dave Brandon has a pretty good pulse on the mood of the fanbase, which he passes on to the coaches at his discretion without you actively having to do anything.
The flip side is, why do you feel you need to let the coaches know you're not happy. Do you believe that everyone isn't totally invested in the team succeeding, unless constantly prodded by fans to do so? Up to a point, coaching a team shouldn't be a crowd-sourced endeavor. If you believe we're at the point for Dave Brandon to start firing people, well just stop buying tickets and merch and I'm sure that'll get his attention a lot faster than booing ever will.
Stop buying tickets, and send an email saying why. Or if you just can't part with them, just send the email. Anything else is people just kidding themselves that it's about someone else and not all about them and making themselves feel less impotent about the game.
Well to take your arguement to the extreme why make any noise at all? Why not just sit quietly and watch the game silently and hope your team prevails.
Oh shit we tried that here for several years.....never mind.
I agree with this. Asking people not to boo is asking people to not show emotion at a sporting event. Good luck.
Or because you want to create an intimidating environment, OR are you doing it to pat tem on the back and say "good job, I approve!" Because if it's the latter, you're right, you can stop, they don't care what you think.
It's not only an extreme, it's apples and oranges.
So hypotheticaly let's say Big Al comes out today and decides that the problem last week was simply the wrong offensive lineman were playing and not his play calls so he continues to run Fitz into 8-9 man fronts for no gain or losses. Let's say he is SO committed to this failed strategy that Fitz gets something crazy like 27 carries for 27 yards (crazy example I know - would never happen in real life) what you expect the reaction of the fans to be when he calls the same play the 28th time with the same results - especially if he calls it down 10 late in the 4th quarter?
What would be acceptable to you? Cause the vast majority of people watching would be losing their mind in frustration.
The fundamental issue is that booing is not for anyone but yourself. What's the point? You seem to be saying that the point is to let him know you disagree. The problem is that he doesn't care what you think, and rightfully so. His job is on the line, not just your feelings.
I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying you don't have an impact, in fact I'm saying you do have an impact and you should be careful to use it in a way that helps the team. Cheering helps the teams morale and has a positive effect, booing hurts it.
Second, noise on defense is actually a tactical advantage, as seen by our numerous false starts and guys not getting off the line at the snap count last week. It's one of the few ways a fan can actively influence a game.
a respectful way for people to communicate their feelings. Yelling and swearing at coaches and players is a disrespectful way to communicate feelings. Which would you prefer fans do?
So you're one of the dipshits sitting near me in the stadium who was booing our own players during the 2010 Iowa and MSU games.
and I think that should mean something. If it's the Lions, yeah BIG MONEY is involved and the fans are there to be entertained but at a college game aren't we all there to support the Alma Mater or the school? Finally, why boo anyways? Booing to me is a very selfish thing, "I'm not happy, you are not pleasing me!!" If I was a player busting my a*% and things aren't going well I would not appreciate being booed by a bunch of folks that are supposed to be on our side. Booing to me represents this 'third' side, 'The FANS', and if they are going to be a mercurial bunch quite frankly I could do without them.
tickets and stadium boxes cost a lot of money and coaches are being paid millions, unless you don't think that constitutes big money.
In general, the rule essentially is as follows:
Criticism of performance or production or in-game decisions = fine
Ad hominems and other personal abuse = not fine, up to and including a ban.
Actually, that rather goes for your fellow MGoBloggers as well. Critiques of arguments are welcome as always, but to use the example of a now-former user, calling someone "the stupidest poster ever" and then proceeding to tear into them further is indeed Bolivia-able, if you will, even up to a ban depending on the severity.
Participation ribbons for all!
Treat others how you would want to be treated. I don't always follow it but I think it makes life easier.
I'd like to put some perspective on all of this who is to blame business coming from the eyes of a current college lacrosse player. I personally hate when people blame my coaches for our team's loss. You can blame coaches all you want but at some point the players on the field have to look at each other and put up or shut up. And that's how we think as players when we lose. We have never blamed our coaches because they put us in position to win. The outside world doesn't know what goes on in the huddles or in practice. Granted i'm not a huge fan of Borges' playcalling sometimes, but in the end I've seen us win running the same plays too. So it's time for every player, not just the o-line, to step up today and get this season back on track
I think the posts attacking players and/or coaches reveal more about the author's shortcomings than anything else.
could give the pregame locker-room speech today?
I didn't play in college but I can tell you that when I played football in high school and had a QB that could throw the ball a country mile and some kids that could run playing receiver our team hated it when our coach would call sweeps and options into the short side of the field over and and over. Sometimes coaches are stubborn donkeys that can kill a team morale.
I won't name any names but the young men who play LG, C, and RG have been a problem. And our QB turning the ball over kills the team. And both of the DEs haven't gotten nearly enough pressure on the opposing teams' QBs.
...do you have any criticisms of QB #98?
(Oh wait, they no longer make those games...)
I realize that just saying "so and so sucks" isn't exactly insightful analysis, but if for example, Kalis didn't play well last week, then young Mr. Kalis didn't play well last week. I'm not going to launch into personal attack but I'm not going to sugarcoat either.
I believe Coach Hoke himself has stated that college football on this level is "big boy football."
National tv, national exposure, you ain't in high school anymore bud. If you play poorly, the whole country is going to see it.
Doesn't excuse base, low brow berating of a player, nor does it warrant personal attack. But it is what it is, if they play poorly people are going to notice and talk about it.
Some of you people really need to get some thicker skin. These are kids who play in front of 110, 000 people on a given Saturday. They're on highlights on national television. Hell, most of you knew more about these kids' ACT scores and physical attributes when they were 16 than their parents did. They're big boys, and like it or not, D1 football has opened them to the peering eye of the critical fanbase.
So we're just supposed to start pulling out the kid gloves? Come on now. If criticism is out, why even have the blog?
all the band members are OK with me booing their performance?
Two words: constructive criticism. It's not that complicated
How is one to constructively criticize in real time at a game?
Good answer. This thread is about the behavior of upset fans at a game that boo. Your solution to that problem is that the fans should provide constructive criticism instead of booing. How is that accomplished in real time in the stadium?
The thread is about board etiquette, and in it began a discussion about booing at games. I was referring to the original thread suggestion about blog post. And face palm is I how react in the stadium rather than boo.
Actually, you replied to my post. But I admit that I misinterpreted your face palm comment. However, I am not sure how 100,000 thousand people with their faces in their hands is any better than booing. Non verbal communication is still communication. For the record, I don't boo at games, but I don't get upset when people do. It's an emotional game.
No worries..iPhone fail on my part for replying to you. Face palm was a stupid joke that I'm blaming jack Daniels.
In order to offer constructive criticism you must be qualified to do so.
99.9% of this board is not qualified in any way, shape, or form to offer constructive criticism to the players and/or coaches.
That doesn't mean you can't comment on things, but using "constructive criticism" as your justification is straight terrible.
Booing is one thing and should be reserved as a method of chastising unprofessional failings and behavior by players, coaches, and refs in my book. Criticizing players by name is something that will rightly occur as long as it is done in a professional and adult (and constructive) way. Are we so sensitive now we have to pretend people don't make mistakes anymore? I'm not talking about trashing people.
Also, since we as fans support the university and team in many ways - including financial - we have a right to speak and not just be told to shut up. This is what fans do. Everywhere.
even though I would mind a player reminding me of Craft routinely, i would be delighted to see a player of his skill set (hand checking masterfully) get onto our roster.
What? Are you serious? It's one thing to call these young men names and inappropriately berate them, it's another to criticize them. And they will be criticized. When I played high school football, if me or my teammates had shortcomings (despite all the potential that may have been there), there was talk about us by name from outside the program, and we thought nothing of it. That's part of how sports and fans work, and if I could handle it as an high school athlete, then these young men who are in the public's eye and are being rewarded by a free education certainly will be criticized and should deal with / expect it. Let's not be absurd and continue to promote a false babying culture where everybody wins.
The board has been too bi-polar lately. It seems every thread is filled with idiotic insults toward thing X or idiotic support for thing X.
How do you have a sports discussion with no criticism?
its one thing to make personal statements, but objectively assessing poor play by specific players is fair play.
The guy (don't recall who off-hand) calling Gardner garbage in last Saturdays game thread, can off himself as far as I'm concerned
a personal attack would be disparaging remarks about someones character or family or juvenile comments re someones looks or whatever. i can agree that using 4 letter words to describe student atheltes is not right, ie player x is a bitch. comments directed at the performance of student athletes are fair game. someone commenting that chris bryant or schofield or miller are not good athletes and below average football players is legit....as are comments re borges being unoriginal and stale....and its also logical considering that this is a blog for fans which allows for full spectrum of opinions and insight and commentary on anything UM football (or i guess institution or sports) related. its an online forum where everyone has right to comment as they see fit, just as everyone has right to debate or offer counterpoint to any opinions etc. i do not approve of character assassination or baselessly ripping apart student athletes using 4 letter words. if some cannot handle criticism of particular players, then offer a counterpoint or engage the poster in debate, simply ignore the comments, or just dont view the site. its a free forum, not subscription based and these types of blogs are always a little heated....across the entire www and across all possible subject matter. grow up. and to the other point, effort and experience and heart only go so far....eventually natural ability and learned technique outweigh effort and experience and heart in terms of executing assignments and making athletic football plays. its a team game, but inside of that team concept the ability to consistently win 1on1 matchups ultimately determines outcomes of plays and games. these kids can try as hard as they want but they need to execute - executing both in terms of assignment/scheme integrity and athletically winning 1on1 matchups to make plays - effort and experience without execution = a long day. sure alabama and osu have hard working kids that play with heart and have some experience....but they also have tons of talent and ability which is most important. lastly i think its pretty telling kyle bosch jumps in as true freshmen and instantly becomes the best guard on the team....so yes, miller and bryant are young and inexperienced, but they will not be good in several years, theyll just be older more experienced kids with little talent. i think i included a decent number of specific names here, at least tried to, and didnt trash their character, i simply offered an opinion regarding current execution and talent level...you have several options, you can offer counterpoint, you can ignore, etc.. but grow up, im guessing you never played sports on big time stage bc commentary from the masses, both positive and negative are inevitable. every kid on um roster is a great kid bc thats how they recruit....unfortunately their character is not up for debate here, their performance on the field is
You all suck. Boo.
too much patronizing, and too much "holier than thou" in this thread.
i know, boo me for saying it...